This brings to mind what Thomas Sowell has pointed out time and time again: our so-called leaders face no penalties for failure. Politicians keep getting re-elected; "experts" go on to foul up even more things; the brass keeps getting stars. In short, "the anointed" are no longer accountable for anything.
The question of course becomes how do we regain the accountability and responsibility we have lost? One hopes the current administration can at least begin such a restoration lest our "great experiment" becomes a minor footnote to history.
"It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way if making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong."
Sowell and VDH often remind us of the lack of people having to pay the consequences of their decisions (primarily political and military), yet we continue on. You and I do, but we do not have a choice.
I can't understand how we lost after instituting Pride Week and enrolling so many women in the Afghan Army.
So glad that the Army general who presided over this fiasco was sacked and never heard from again. Can you imagine what a mess he could make in Ukraine?
Haven't heard much from the hapless inarticulate fumbling Admiral Kirby lately.
Respectfully, my counter argument is that the loss was never about the US military and whether it got too woke or politically correct. The loss was, as is typical in our post World War II history, about a failure of successful on the ground politics. Americans are terrible at this. Like British colonialists we figure it’s better to work with existing leaders. And their venal incompetence always makes us look bad to the locals. Back in the US, our politicians always expect the military to deliver a solution at the point of a gun when in fact the focus should be on the politics of the local country. We can hold ground without trouble, but the second a majority of the population sees the international military as occupiers, the war is lost. The US had good reason to distrust the local leaders in Afghanistan; they were small minded, corrupt and more concerned with looking good than actually doing good. You can’t build a successful country if the leadership is so out of touch. (These days it’s not hard to find Americans who say the same about our own government.) Just like in Vietnam, epic local corruption undermined US military efforts in Afghanistan. South Korea was epically corrupt in 1950 but that could be safely ignored because North Korea and China were seen as the invaders, rather than the US and UN forces.
In today's United States Navy. Sea Time Does Not Pay.
Click the box as expeditiously as possible, so you can get to that DC 'Joint' job, where you can strut about town in your pressed cammies, and get thanked for your service.
Good Morning CDR Salamander, I was waiting for your email.
Please don’t “Drape Humiliation” round you because that’s not healthy.
Thank you for this review. Yes, do indeed treat your migraine.
I was in the Middle East twice in 2005. To get there I began my “work” in 2003! In about 1991, our Navy Captain Yates asked for a show of hands, “Who wants to go to Iraq?” My hand was up. Captain asked three times. Captain Yates said, “Everyone put your hands down. We will go as a group or we won’t go.”
CDR Salamander, during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, there was strict “Military Order”. Consensus was reached in the new “Russian Federation”, best to pull out! Oh, CDR Salamander my headaches begun when I met Warranty Officer Dursun I’Ibas, C-130 Pilot and Crew Chief - Insurlik Turkey. He was my “Viewport”. I stuck close to my “Plan” and my nightmares began with NGO Wissam Al-Muzhir of Iraq.
Holding America “Accountable”, yes, I agree. I have two little Iraqi/Jordanian “Dollies” given to me by Bas the Iraqi’s sister. Beliefs, “If you take these Dollies with you, I and my children will follow.”
Please CDR Salamander continue your Deep Dive “Studies” of Responsibility and Accountability in present day Russian Federation. Do you recall what happened in Russia after Lenin? Like Rats abandoning Ship! It’s 2025 now and time to understand “Economy” because that’s what keeps the Ships Afloat. Stay Safe CDR Salamander. Nurse Jane “Lights the way Forward!”
“The Afghan army and government the Soviet Union left behind lasted over 3 years.
The Afghan army and government the USA left behind lasted barely 1 month.
This is a nugget everyone needs to hoist onboard. It is bolded and underlined for a reason.”
not a single go/fo other than stanley mcchrystal left early or suffered longterm repercussions for their performance. hell, all of them have gotten richer.
Thanks for the reminder. A hideously embarrassing debacle to be sure. As I have said before, I believe this was rammed down the throat of the military by Biden and his minions. Yes , the JCS should have resigned rather than b a party to it---not sure that the JCS at the time had honor enough to even think about it.
At the very least CENTCOM should've resigned instead, he's on a legacy-burnishing tour promoting his book attempting to reflect & editorialize his time.
The US Navy 'voted' against COA III invasion of Iraq, The Big Distraction, and the future Chairman, then LTG Dempsey, was VERY clear-eyed about the end state of Afghanistan. If you have beefs with those conflicts, look at the political. The Bremer, the Bush, etc. Oh, and the ass who struck the deal with the Taliban.
Your ass who unilaterally changed the withdrawal date and then played Fall of Saigon Part Deux by cutting funding to Afghani Government a few weeks before the fall?
The ass who failed to withdraw civilians prior to pulling US troops?
Come on. Just tell him where he is wrong in your view. At length if you feel the need. A good opposing view is always welcome especially if sheds insight on how to fight the next encounter.
Michael is a partisan hack who is trying to blame Trump for the gross failure of the Biden administration. The lie spread by the Deep State is that Biden just couldn’t undo Trump’s decision to open a dialogue two years earlier with the enemy. Never mind that Biden undid everything else Trump did like the border. This is not the first deceptive post from Michael.
What they voted for was irrelevant. They received their orders, and saluted smartly. Do you remember any Flag resignations over executing the orders? I dont.
So......we criticize Russia's inabilities to take all Ukraine as they said they would and Russia watched as we collapsed in Afghanistan. A merry-go-round of endless failed wars.
We watched the Soviets fail to control Afghanistan while sharing a 1000-mile border. I still cannot fathom the hubris that enabled our latest "smartest people" to think it could be done from 10,000 miles away.
Thank you for the reminder. This is like a treatment for cancer... it takes time and treatment rather than being a once and done. If we don't root it all out... it will eventually kill us.
I don't know how we possibly expected to turn Afghanistan into a functioning country. We can't even solve the gang problem in any major US city, and there we understand the language, the history, the culture, who the players are, the feuds that go back decades, etc. Add to that that in Afghanistan probably most of the population has PTSD from the rampant lawlessness, lack of safety culture, UXOs, the boy rape, the violence against women, etc etc. We knew 10 years in that we weren't going to succeed on that course and yet we stayed for another 10 years, wasting all that blood and treasure.
The challenges and obstacles to Western Civilization in Afghanistan have changed little since Alexander realized the folly of being stuck there, took a wife, and moved on
I knew the war was lost when I got on the plane in Kandahar to return to conus 2003. Much later I said so on a forum and was ridiculed because I didn't understand grand strategy.
I support the content of this message!
Disgusting chapter, but we, the citizens of this Country need to read and reread this. Thank the Good Lord that change is in the air!
This brings to mind what Thomas Sowell has pointed out time and time again: our so-called leaders face no penalties for failure. Politicians keep getting re-elected; "experts" go on to foul up even more things; the brass keeps getting stars. In short, "the anointed" are no longer accountable for anything.
The question of course becomes how do we regain the accountability and responsibility we have lost? One hopes the current administration can at least begin such a restoration lest our "great experiment" becomes a minor footnote to history.
this may be the quote. so many apply:
"It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way if making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong."
- T Sowell
Sowell and VDH often remind us of the lack of people having to pay the consequences of their decisions (primarily political and military), yet we continue on. You and I do, but we do not have a choice.
I can't understand how we lost after instituting Pride Week and enrolling so many women in the Afghan Army.
So glad that the Army general who presided over this fiasco was sacked and never heard from again. Can you imagine what a mess he could make in Ukraine?
Haven't heard much from the hapless inarticulate fumbling Admiral Kirby lately.
Respectfully, my counter argument is that the loss was never about the US military and whether it got too woke or politically correct. The loss was, as is typical in our post World War II history, about a failure of successful on the ground politics. Americans are terrible at this. Like British colonialists we figure it’s better to work with existing leaders. And their venal incompetence always makes us look bad to the locals. Back in the US, our politicians always expect the military to deliver a solution at the point of a gun when in fact the focus should be on the politics of the local country. We can hold ground without trouble, but the second a majority of the population sees the international military as occupiers, the war is lost. The US had good reason to distrust the local leaders in Afghanistan; they were small minded, corrupt and more concerned with looking good than actually doing good. You can’t build a successful country if the leadership is so out of touch. (These days it’s not hard to find Americans who say the same about our own government.) Just like in Vietnam, epic local corruption undermined US military efforts in Afghanistan. South Korea was epically corrupt in 1950 but that could be safely ignored because North Korea and China were seen as the invaders, rather than the US and UN forces.
The Woodrow Wilson Way of War...
Works Terrible. Fails Every Time.
We need many more scenes like this at State:
https://youtu.be/zQDcEnCJ48I?si=CN_WNesYLRSINRcH
And at many more federal agencies.
Next time we should just make a dessert and call it peace.
Should we bring them firnee, jalebi, or malida?
Desert not dessert. Sorry.
LOL!
Kirby was the most competent guy there. He just lacked much to work with
Kirby. Qualified as a SWO on an FFG as a J.O. Spent the rest of his career as a PAO in the Navy and at the DoD, State Department and White House.
Never let the powers that be hide behind a professional carnie barker.
u are correct. my point was that he was the most competent at his job in a pool of world class fools
In today's United States Navy. Sea Time Does Not Pay.
Click the box as expeditiously as possible, so you can get to that DC 'Joint' job, where you can strut about town in your pressed cammies, and get thanked for your service.
Back in the day Premium Sea Pay was $310/mo, IIRC. ☺ 19½ years sea duty paid me huge dividends too.
Good Morning CDR Salamander, I was waiting for your email.
Please don’t “Drape Humiliation” round you because that’s not healthy.
Thank you for this review. Yes, do indeed treat your migraine.
I was in the Middle East twice in 2005. To get there I began my “work” in 2003! In about 1991, our Navy Captain Yates asked for a show of hands, “Who wants to go to Iraq?” My hand was up. Captain asked three times. Captain Yates said, “Everyone put your hands down. We will go as a group or we won’t go.”
CDR Salamander, during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, there was strict “Military Order”. Consensus was reached in the new “Russian Federation”, best to pull out! Oh, CDR Salamander my headaches begun when I met Warranty Officer Dursun I’Ibas, C-130 Pilot and Crew Chief - Insurlik Turkey. He was my “Viewport”. I stuck close to my “Plan” and my nightmares began with NGO Wissam Al-Muzhir of Iraq.
Holding America “Accountable”, yes, I agree. I have two little Iraqi/Jordanian “Dollies” given to me by Bas the Iraqi’s sister. Beliefs, “If you take these Dollies with you, I and my children will follow.”
Please CDR Salamander continue your Deep Dive “Studies” of Responsibility and Accountability in present day Russian Federation. Do you recall what happened in Russia after Lenin? Like Rats abandoning Ship! It’s 2025 now and time to understand “Economy” because that’s what keeps the Ships Afloat. Stay Safe CDR Salamander. Nurse Jane “Lights the way Forward!”
Great message!
“The Afghan army and government the Soviet Union left behind lasted over 3 years.
The Afghan army and government the USA left behind lasted barely 1 month.
This is a nugget everyone needs to hoist onboard. It is bolded and underlined for a reason.”
not a single go/fo other than stanley mcchrystal left early or suffered longterm repercussions for their performance. hell, all of them have gotten richer.
stu scheller wasn’t wrong.
Thanks for the reminder. A hideously embarrassing debacle to be sure. As I have said before, I believe this was rammed down the throat of the military by Biden and his minions. Yes , the JCS should have resigned rather than b a party to it---not sure that the JCS at the time had honor enough to even think about it.
At the very least CENTCOM should've resigned instead, he's on a legacy-burnishing tour promoting his book attempting to reflect & editorialize his time.
The US Navy 'voted' against COA III invasion of Iraq, The Big Distraction, and the future Chairman, then LTG Dempsey, was VERY clear-eyed about the end state of Afghanistan. If you have beefs with those conflicts, look at the political. The Bremer, the Bush, etc. Oh, and the ass who struck the deal with the Taliban.
Your ass who unilaterally changed the withdrawal date and then played Fall of Saigon Part Deux by cutting funding to Afghani Government a few weeks before the fall?
The ass who failed to withdraw civilians prior to pulling US troops?
But, you were an aide to Ted Kennedy.
https://www.forbes.com/2009/08/27/ted-kennedy-soviet-union-ronald-reagan-opinions-columnists-peter-robinson.html
What hole did you crawl out of Michael?
Perhaps some manners might be appropriate.
Not for Michael.
Come on. Just tell him where he is wrong in your view. At length if you feel the need. A good opposing view is always welcome especially if sheds insight on how to fight the next encounter.
Michael is a partisan hack who is trying to blame Trump for the gross failure of the Biden administration. The lie spread by the Deep State is that Biden just couldn’t undo Trump’s decision to open a dialogue two years earlier with the enemy. Never mind that Biden undid everything else Trump did like the border. This is not the first deceptive post from Michael.
Pete is undergoing an unreality moment. It happens when one becomes slaven in their worship of a golden calf.
I know a Snake in the Garden when I see one.
Right from the 'elite' Stalinist School of History...
Make up the facts afterwards to match the narrative.
BZ Mike!
What they voted for was irrelevant. They received their orders, and saluted smartly. Do you remember any Flag resignations over executing the orders? I dont.
Where is some verification of this 'vote'...
Sunday....a call to repentance, no less. tilting at windmills, spitt'n into wind, alas. we are too far gone, hubris and/or ennui reign supreme.
So......we criticize Russia's inabilities to take all Ukraine as they said they would and Russia watched as we collapsed in Afghanistan. A merry-go-round of endless failed wars.
We watched the Soviets fail to control Afghanistan while sharing a 1000-mile border. I still cannot fathom the hubris that enabled our latest "smartest people" to think it could be done from 10,000 miles away.
They went to Ivy League colleges so they are smarter than you or me.
Just ask them.
Thank you for the reminder. This is like a treatment for cancer... it takes time and treatment rather than being a once and done. If we don't root it all out... it will eventually kill us.
"There is your benchmark. The Soviets were 38-times more successful in Afghanistan than we were, and they did it in half the time."
And for a lot less money
Blood Boil in 3, 2, 1
Looking forward to Milley and his crew paying an actual price for thier utter failureS.
Don't hold your breath.
Jake Sullivan failing up since the day he took his fort breathe.
Mattis2024: You got that right. Howdy Doody would have done a better job.
I don't know how we possibly expected to turn Afghanistan into a functioning country. We can't even solve the gang problem in any major US city, and there we understand the language, the history, the culture, who the players are, the feuds that go back decades, etc. Add to that that in Afghanistan probably most of the population has PTSD from the rampant lawlessness, lack of safety culture, UXOs, the boy rape, the violence against women, etc etc. We knew 10 years in that we weren't going to succeed on that course and yet we stayed for another 10 years, wasting all that blood and treasure.
The challenges and obstacles to Western Civilization in Afghanistan have changed little since Alexander realized the folly of being stuck there, took a wife, and moved on
It shouldn't have taken ten years to figure out that nation building in a place where nation is a fuzzy concept is a fool's errand.
I knew the war was lost when I got on the plane in Kandahar to return to conus 2003. Much later I said so on a forum and was ridiculed because I didn't understand grand strategy.