What the point of putting ESSM or other high-capacity weapon on the ship, that should NOT participate in any kind of combat unless literally everything went screwed up and the enemy is able to strike the USN's deep rear echelons? This ship is logistic unit; it isn't a warship. It is not supposed to carry area defense weapons.
Sometimes things go sideways very fast, and you aren't in the rear anymore. If your guardian angels are busy, having a bit more protection for yourself isn't a bad idea.
I always think "open decks" are the equivalent of "I could put any amount of CONEX boxes on the deck that will fit filled with missiles" or drones or whatever. Heck, anti-drone defense with a lot of helicopters armed with APKWS or proximity ammo. The missiles could be just be defensive, assuming the ESBs can keep up with the Fleet and contribute to fleet defense or they could be stationed near advanced depot/ports for defense of other ships being rearmed with missiles.
1. The Hammer of the Proletariat: Soviet Infantry in Bolt Action ...
Shtrafbats (penalty battalions) were Soviet penal military units created in 1942 by Joseph Stalin's Order No. 227 during World War II to punish soldiers, officers, and political prisoners. These units were used on the Eastern Front for dangerous, high-casualty missions to "redeem" themselves through blood.
2. TASS News reported this morning that CBS News announced Israel and USA would strike Iran on February 21, 2026.
About number 1, It’s a “disgrace”to be captured running away from battle. Why? Because they do not want “Dishonor” held over their families. Dishonor disqualifies families from “Benefits”.
“Opportunities” are given to disgraced Russian soldiers. What I do know, only from my reading, is that Russian soldiers choose to prove themselves “worthy”.
It’s Russian “Honor” that is taught. My Russian Grandpa, bullets wounds across his chest, taught me so much when I young.
About number 2., Time to rally round the Flag shipmates, and support our troops on the front lines and back here in the States.
Yesterday, I was in VAMC Washington D.C. I met the the Charge Nurse of the VA Mental Health Clinic. We agreed, a nurse is more than just a nurse. At 1600 Ttavel Clerk Brendan called his supervisor asking “Where is the AOD””?” Nurse Jane is being given the run-arround about her Uber Transportation home. That’s how we work as a Team in the VAMC 50 Irving Street N.W. Washington D.C. thank you for reading my comment. Now I’ll read what CDR posted. God bless America. Be safe!
Yep, my first thought, too. ESB's fine but slow. we need more as our good Host suggests; 'n if they're too slow to "get there"; then pre-positioned would be fine.
but, c'mon! howz about some 100kts CZNs, eh?!! WhooHoo!
The problem with prepositioning is they are just targets on D-day, H-hour.
And any place we might preposition them (including to a lesser degree CONUS) is simply an anchorage or dock they’re going to be destroyed at.
But Guam? Pearl? Diego Garcia? How long would it take any of us with the appropriate charts to find the places to block the harbors or destroy the ships alongside?
"CZN"? Traditional Navy nomenclature for ship classes....."V" is for what we know as a carrier; the "V" representing it carrying heavier-than-air aircraft.
Tradition again....."Z" (as in zeppelin) was designation of a ship that was itself a Lighter-than-Air craft....
so.....CZN....Carrier, Zeppelin, Nuclear. (my own tongue-in-cheek designation)
now...."zeppelin" is an outdated, almost archaic idea. But USS Akron and USS Macon were flying aircraft carriers. It's been 100 years! we can surely do better. and yeah......Nuclear would be do-able and terrific. Navy NEEDS these!
Just for fun, do a search for "NIDS 2002 hypothesis",
and/or read my book 'OMG A UFO". (apologies for personal plug here, CDR)
Experiments proved the concept of the T-ESDs unworkable. Ship to ship movement made the whole arrangement dangerous in anything but low sea states (3+was problematic if my memory is correct). A solution could not be found at reasonable cost. The actual sea state limits were lower than needed for a usable capability and so they were retired.
Concur. Also, have been thinking somewhat of the absolute utility that the vast fleet of Liberty ships gave the Navy when modified for uses such as motor repair ships, aviation repair ships, and all sorts of other auxiliaries. The Navy, in accordance with the Trump admin push to rebuild US shipbuilding, should look at what a basic, bare bones hull would look like that could be modified to serve as a tender, repair vessel, or whatever other aux the fleet might need.
Put machine shops, warehouses, etc., into standard 20 and 40' containers and you have a repair ship.
Some things to consider:
Cranes - Likely need a fairly heavy lift crane. I'm sure a bolt on could be designed, but making that standard ESB equipment probably isn't a big deal.
Power - May need to look at additional electricity for all the stuff added. Containerized or palletized generators could do the job. Some thought to managing all the power cables would be needed.
Defenses - As mentioned self defense weapons currently look absolutely inadequate. SeaRAM, Mk 38, maybe CIWS, ought to be added as standard equipment. That does incur operation and maintenance loads though, so spares and personnel need to be integrated as well. In a war with a peer or near peer these vessels will be big targets. They will likely need ABM defenses as well. Perhaps putting a THAAD or Patriot launcher on the deck would work. Or containerize them as well. Appropriate radars may be an issue.
That last bit isn't unique to the ESB it applies to any SERVRON ship and warships as well. I do hope somebody is putting some thought into how to defeat the expected ballistic missile barrage.
Bingo! Generic hulls can ge easily repurposed. Yesterday I came across a FB post that talked about some that were converted to be forward deployed repair shops for USAAF B-29's, and included a helo deck. Very interesting pictures. The lastest sketch of the newly contracted LSMs looked like good candidates.
Though each class of amphib should never be allowed to fall below 13.
The flexibility and deterrence of USN/USMC ARG/MEU and
LHA/LHD 13
LDP 13
LSD 13
If we have 13 ESB that gives flexibility to come together & work with the MEU beyond it’s only in dependent actions. It’s also a solid basing option for mine warfare both laying and countermeasures and interdiction duties. Which will be in high demand if things go kinetic with West Taiwan. They will not act alone and proxies will be worldwide receiving supplies as we saw with the rearming if the Houthis.
We need more hulls and the hulls need more arms. That's it. Our near-peer adversaries have us beat in spades. They've got fishing vessels steaming under orders. Let's not pick at nits. The slow speed (17kts) is just a distraction, an excuse that argues for the unobtainable perfect solution instead of an obtainable good solution.
Those ships are basically a mobile logistic nodes. Putting them into action as any kind of auxilary warships is... just not practical. Their main goal is to receive cargo from ocean-going transports & transfer said cargo on smaller ships and helicopters for delivery to ships and troops nearby. Making those logistic unit to serve as mini-LHA is just... impractical.
More like a small LSD or that LST that we're building that can be used as a staging platform for Special operations that's supporting by a DDG or a frigate
While I agree that better defensive weapons are needed as there will be no such thing as a "safe" rear area against long range missiles. However the overall acquisition and conversion cost is concerning against its potential value. This type of ship will not be sailing with the fleet as a combat support ship. I would not call it a "LHA" just because it can handle helo's and ships along side nor does it have the survivable, sensor, weapons capabilities and is slow. I see its primary value and purpose of being a semi-mobile operations base in the second island chain providing island to island logistics, medical, some refueling, limited combat damage mitigation and repairs. Visions of raids by SEALS is unrealistic as they will be far from the FEB for helo or V-22 operations.
I agree that a few more of these ships, if costs vs value can be justified, will be helpful in a new WestPac war. However, I would like to see more sub and destroyer tenders that have the capability for heavy combat damage to have a higher priority. These tenders are expensive so a low cost mini-tender in multiple units would be a value to spread out the risk to our repair activities. One idea that has been discussed before is buying up idled oil drilling rigs and converted them into Mobile Defense/Depot Platform (MODEP) concept capable of performing most of the ESB tasks but also VLS facilities and mid-level repairs. These oil rigs, if bought in bulk and converted, could be spread out to many atolls, where targeting would be difficult. The big benefit is the low cost of procurement and that they are already pre-configured to meet many of the mission requirements.
Read the Thursday, September 27, 2012 Mattis and the PONCE article. Great article on the USS Ponce usefulness and James Mattis
There is a lot of win in this article from BusinessInsider. It starts with a little fanboylove from one of the great military leaders of the last 50-years, General Mattis, USMC.
"So when our Navy point of contact in Bahrain stepped in to where the media were waiting for its helicopter ride to the USS Ponce, and said General James "Mad Dog" Mattis was suddenly slated to be aboard, the room picked up an energy it'd been lacking in the heat and delay just a moment before. "The Marines on the ground look at Mattis like a superhero," former Marine and BI writer Geoffrey says. "They love him."
"We all love him. Having worked with him remains one of the highlights of my very humble time in the service. Yea, he's that good. "
Mattis resigned as Secretary of Defense in December 2018 due to fundamental policy disagreements with the President. Mattis articulated (albeit in highly diplomatic language) his disagreements with Trump's worldview and military policy competence. Although the continuing ESB discussion is important, what is there to believe that the present Secretary of Defense is competent to implement the desired changes to the Navy ship procurement budget and actually implement additional shipbuilding capacity. For instance, what has been the budgetary cost to station a Navy contingent off Venezuela to capture one man and destroy a few small boats and how has that impacted current hull procurement along with fleet training and readiness.
1."HyPeRsOnIc MiSsLeS!"
2. Very Smart People opposed these.... which supports the concept.
3. Definitely need uparmed; possibly ESSM as a longer-ranged dual-purpose weapon?
Never have truer words been said. Especially #2 and #3
What the point of putting ESSM or other high-capacity weapon on the ship, that should NOT participate in any kind of combat unless literally everything went screwed up and the enemy is able to strike the USN's deep rear echelons? This ship is logistic unit; it isn't a warship. It is not supposed to carry area defense weapons.
Sometimes things go sideways very fast, and you aren't in the rear anymore. If your guardian angels are busy, having a bit more protection for yourself isn't a bad idea.
remember, while not all enemies come with hyped-sonic missiles, there are some of them that might shoot back unlike boarded civvies
uparming gets my 2 thumbs up
Ten years ago I thought these were vanity projects.
I always think "open decks" are the equivalent of "I could put any amount of CONEX boxes on the deck that will fit filled with missiles" or drones or whatever. Heck, anti-drone defense with a lot of helicopters armed with APKWS or proximity ammo. The missiles could be just be defensive, assuming the ESBs can keep up with the Fleet and contribute to fleet defense or they could be stationed near advanced depot/ports for defense of other ships being rearmed with missiles.
Build them. Build them all!
The Army has been field testing (i.e., using) anti-drone defenses in the vicinity of the El Paso airport lately. Strap a few of those out on deck.
Good Morning CDR, shipmates.
Thank you for this post.
May I share two things first:
1. The Hammer of the Proletariat: Soviet Infantry in Bolt Action ...
Shtrafbats (penalty battalions) were Soviet penal military units created in 1942 by Joseph Stalin's Order No. 227 during World War II to punish soldiers, officers, and political prisoners. These units were used on the Eastern Front for dangerous, high-casualty missions to "redeem" themselves through blood.
2. TASS News reported this morning that CBS News announced Israel and USA would strike Iran on February 21, 2026.
About number 1, It’s a “disgrace”to be captured running away from battle. Why? Because they do not want “Dishonor” held over their families. Dishonor disqualifies families from “Benefits”.
“Opportunities” are given to disgraced Russian soldiers. What I do know, only from my reading, is that Russian soldiers choose to prove themselves “worthy”.
It’s Russian “Honor” that is taught. My Russian Grandpa, bullets wounds across his chest, taught me so much when I young.
About number 2., Time to rally round the Flag shipmates, and support our troops on the front lines and back here in the States.
Yesterday, I was in VAMC Washington D.C. I met the the Charge Nurse of the VA Mental Health Clinic. We agreed, a nurse is more than just a nurse. At 1600 Ttavel Clerk Brendan called his supervisor asking “Where is the AOD””?” Nurse Jane is being given the run-arround about her Uber Transportation home. That’s how we work as a Team in the VAMC 50 Irving Street N.W. Washington D.C. thank you for reading my comment. Now I’ll read what CDR posted. God bless America. Be safe!
Gulf states want no part of a kinetic war. They will end this madness by denying use of their territories.
Huh. I've not been paying attention. These are _interesting_. Agree: give them some teeth.
... though as TrustbutVerify points out, you can get flexible with what you cram into shipping containers.
They started out as T-ESBs, more weapons are needed.
took a look at "we have other options". Thankyou CDR. Perhaps these ( nice!) ESB could more appropriately be termed CVL's?
(and I'm all for some CZN's!!!) ;)
They are **L
But slow. 17 knots?
Yep, my first thought, too. ESB's fine but slow. we need more as our good Host suggests; 'n if they're too slow to "get there"; then pre-positioned would be fine.
but, c'mon! howz about some 100kts CZNs, eh?!! WhooHoo!
The problem with prepositioning is they are just targets on D-day, H-hour.
And any place we might preposition them (including to a lesser degree CONUS) is simply an anchorage or dock they’re going to be destroyed at.
But Guam? Pearl? Diego Garcia? How long would it take any of us with the appropriate charts to find the places to block the harbors or destroy the ships alongside?
And what's a CZN?
Guessing Carrier Zeppelin Navy.
"CZN"? Traditional Navy nomenclature for ship classes....."V" is for what we know as a carrier; the "V" representing it carrying heavier-than-air aircraft.
Tradition again....."Z" (as in zeppelin) was designation of a ship that was itself a Lighter-than-Air craft....
so.....CZN....Carrier, Zeppelin, Nuclear. (my own tongue-in-cheek designation)
now...."zeppelin" is an outdated, almost archaic idea. But USS Akron and USS Macon were flying aircraft carriers. It's been 100 years! we can surely do better. and yeah......Nuclear would be do-able and terrific. Navy NEEDS these!
Just for fun, do a search for "NIDS 2002 hypothesis",
and/or read my book 'OMG A UFO". (apologies for personal plug here, CDR)
Fine build an airship that can fly at decent speeds (>20k groundspeed) into prevailing winds in the pacific and prove the concept.
I think I understand the direction of your operational challenge, but I'm confused by ">20k".
What happened with the T-ESDs? According to Wiki they're both in ordinary
I’d love to have them as motherships for FRCs. MASC usvs, or XLUUVs. Based on our current programs.
They started out that way, but have been made USN ships.
Limited purpose ships at this point. They're essentially floating piers, and I'm not sure how useful they are in many of the short of war situations.
Experiments proved the concept of the T-ESDs unworkable. Ship to ship movement made the whole arrangement dangerous in anything but low sea states (3+was problematic if my memory is correct). A solution could not be found at reasonable cost. The actual sea state limits were lower than needed for a usable capability and so they were retired.
Something like those crank-down RO-RO's the PLAN has would be good.
Could we not convert them to tenders and put them in atolls in the Central Pacific?
Concur. Also, have been thinking somewhat of the absolute utility that the vast fleet of Liberty ships gave the Navy when modified for uses such as motor repair ships, aviation repair ships, and all sorts of other auxiliaries. The Navy, in accordance with the Trump admin push to rebuild US shipbuilding, should look at what a basic, bare bones hull would look like that could be modified to serve as a tender, repair vessel, or whatever other aux the fleet might need.
I LIKE that idea.
Put machine shops, warehouses, etc., into standard 20 and 40' containers and you have a repair ship.
Some things to consider:
Cranes - Likely need a fairly heavy lift crane. I'm sure a bolt on could be designed, but making that standard ESB equipment probably isn't a big deal.
Power - May need to look at additional electricity for all the stuff added. Containerized or palletized generators could do the job. Some thought to managing all the power cables would be needed.
Defenses - As mentioned self defense weapons currently look absolutely inadequate. SeaRAM, Mk 38, maybe CIWS, ought to be added as standard equipment. That does incur operation and maintenance loads though, so spares and personnel need to be integrated as well. In a war with a peer or near peer these vessels will be big targets. They will likely need ABM defenses as well. Perhaps putting a THAAD or Patriot launcher on the deck would work. Or containerize them as well. Appropriate radars may be an issue.
That last bit isn't unique to the ESB it applies to any SERVRON ship and warships as well. I do hope somebody is putting some thought into how to defeat the expected ballistic missile barrage.
NSMMs. We're building them as training ships, just reconfigure as tenders.
Bingo! Generic hulls can ge easily repurposed. Yesterday I came across a FB post that talked about some that were converted to be forward deployed repair shops for USAAF B-29's, and included a helo deck. Very interesting pictures. The lastest sketch of the newly contracted LSMs looked like good candidates.
ENDORSED
Though each class of amphib should never be allowed to fall below 13.
The flexibility and deterrence of USN/USMC ARG/MEU and
LHA/LHD 13
LDP 13
LSD 13
If we have 13 ESB that gives flexibility to come together & work with the MEU beyond it’s only in dependent actions. It’s also a solid basing option for mine warfare both laying and countermeasures and interdiction duties. Which will be in high demand if things go kinetic with West Taiwan. They will not act alone and proxies will be worldwide receiving supplies as we saw with the rearming if the Houthis.
We need more hulls and the hulls need more arms. That's it. Our near-peer adversaries have us beat in spades. They've got fishing vessels steaming under orders. Let's not pick at nits. The slow speed (17kts) is just a distraction, an excuse that argues for the unobtainable perfect solution instead of an obtainable good solution.
I personally think each numbered fleet needs one.
LOL,
2
so at least 1 is available
Hey, I can support that.
Or two. They are relatively inexpensive in terms of hull cost and crew complement. Need more weapons, though.
Those ships are basically a mobile logistic nodes. Putting them into action as any kind of auxilary warships is... just not practical. Their main goal is to receive cargo from ocean-going transports & transfer said cargo on smaller ships and helicopters for delivery to ships and troops nearby. Making those logistic unit to serve as mini-LHA is just... impractical.
The "action" will inevitably come to these ships...
I think we need more LPD's
A bit off topic as I would not use them like an ESB, but I’d rather have a small LSD over the LSM.
More like a small LSD or that LST that we're building that can be used as a staging platform for Special operations that's supporting by a DDG or a frigate
LSM is the LST.
Like the one we're building for the USMC would be perfect
It's good that they are full on commissioned Navy ships and not USNS.
The other Sal may dispute it, but the UNREP force needs to be brought back into the USN as well.
And armed appropriately.
While I agree that better defensive weapons are needed as there will be no such thing as a "safe" rear area against long range missiles. However the overall acquisition and conversion cost is concerning against its potential value. This type of ship will not be sailing with the fleet as a combat support ship. I would not call it a "LHA" just because it can handle helo's and ships along side nor does it have the survivable, sensor, weapons capabilities and is slow. I see its primary value and purpose of being a semi-mobile operations base in the second island chain providing island to island logistics, medical, some refueling, limited combat damage mitigation and repairs. Visions of raids by SEALS is unrealistic as they will be far from the FEB for helo or V-22 operations.
I agree that a few more of these ships, if costs vs value can be justified, will be helpful in a new WestPac war. However, I would like to see more sub and destroyer tenders that have the capability for heavy combat damage to have a higher priority. These tenders are expensive so a low cost mini-tender in multiple units would be a value to spread out the risk to our repair activities. One idea that has been discussed before is buying up idled oil drilling rigs and converted them into Mobile Defense/Depot Platform (MODEP) concept capable of performing most of the ESB tasks but also VLS facilities and mid-level repairs. These oil rigs, if bought in bulk and converted, could be spread out to many atolls, where targeting would be difficult. The big benefit is the low cost of procurement and that they are already pre-configured to meet many of the mission requirements.
Read the Thursday, September 27, 2012 Mattis and the PONCE article. Great article on the USS Ponce usefulness and James Mattis
There is a lot of win in this article from BusinessInsider. It starts with a little fanboylove from one of the great military leaders of the last 50-years, General Mattis, USMC.
"So when our Navy point of contact in Bahrain stepped in to where the media were waiting for its helicopter ride to the USS Ponce, and said General James "Mad Dog" Mattis was suddenly slated to be aboard, the room picked up an energy it'd been lacking in the heat and delay just a moment before. "The Marines on the ground look at Mattis like a superhero," former Marine and BI writer Geoffrey says. "They love him."
"We all love him. Having worked with him remains one of the highlights of my very humble time in the service. Yea, he's that good. "
Mattis resigned as Secretary of Defense in December 2018 due to fundamental policy disagreements with the President. Mattis articulated (albeit in highly diplomatic language) his disagreements with Trump's worldview and military policy competence. Although the continuing ESB discussion is important, what is there to believe that the present Secretary of Defense is competent to implement the desired changes to the Navy ship procurement budget and actually implement additional shipbuilding capacity. For instance, what has been the budgetary cost to station a Navy contingent off Venezuela to capture one man and destroy a few small boats and how has that impacted current hull procurement along with fleet training and readiness.