For the perfect storm of a horrendous Australian Government to the current collapse of the US industrial base. If we don’t show ourselves and more importantly those who we m have charged with ensuring our defense that when we set our minds to making things happen they will happen no matter your hand wringing we might as well hand the keys to the CCP and turn out the lights.
I’m sorry but we are a larger more successful nation in every metric than at anytime in our History. Yet have forgotten what got us here. You are the fucking United States of America there is nothing we cannot do.
If it takes modern day McCarthy Hearings to route out the subversive do nothings & road blockers let’s get on with it.
Americans still do big things at speed not at Pace. Yet to many think everything is impossible so don’t try. SpaceX isn’t 20 years old & has flown more than Nasa.
The intercontinental railroad took 6 years yet California will take 60 years to build an intercity rail line.
The DOD has spent 25 years trying to figure out a new cloud. Yet a dozen private companies have hyperscale AI Datacenters in the last 2 years.
The iPhone is still a teenager. 25% of all housing in Texas has been built since 2010 after the mortgage meltdown.
So enough that we can’t do this or that and pick up a shovel and get to work. The best time to do this was to strangle everyone in the cradle who went wild with stealing US sovereign wealth thru the “peace dividend”. The second best time is today.
Stop focusing on Blue States that don’t want to build anything and pour the money and opportunities into the states that do. Though both Maine & New Hampshire need to be occupied to ensure we keep sovereign capabilities.
Team Trump has made some changes, though not at all sufficient in breadth and depth to steer America away from disaster. We are retaining many of the same individuals at all levels of government, both civilian and military, who have led us to this position. All of the Woke, DEI, Resistance folks must be treated like a cancer and removed by all means, drastic if needed. There will be some collateral damage that is unescapable. Breaking eggs and all that.
Sal: "Everyone I talk to will ID the problem, but we have yet to see movement to solve it anytime soon." We *can* do amazing things, but we have to start by gettng off our collective butts as a nation. One of the primary bottlenecks in sub construction is the number of shipyards certified for that work. Maybe Secretary Hegseth needs to fire a round across the bow of SEA 08 advising them that there *will* be two (three?) more nuclear certified shipyards in the country in the next two years.
But speaking of 5-eyes, with the way Britain is going, and the way that New Zealand has been, does 5-eyes make any sense anymore? What, exactly have the kiwis contributed since, oh, well.....WWII?
Flight-ER-Doc: No, Five Eyes no longer makes sense, if it ever did. We are feeding information to countries with governments populated with people with ancestral (and more recent) ties to enemy countries, regimes and cultures. Just look at the UK's new Home Secretary: Cannot be trusted.
The mistake the US continues to make is consider the UK an ally. There's nothing there, zip. And Chuck better watch it, they'll be coming for him soon.
I have no time for my current Government (or its predecessors for something like 20 years) but it’s a funny thing, from my distant viewpoint in the UK, it sometimes looks like you’ll be gone before us. And I base that on US media as well as our own.
However, I think that tells you much more about how misleading sensationalist media reporting can be - and the lack of understanding we all have about other countries - than it does about the reality of the situation. We all need to be very careful that we don’t believe our own propaganda and don’t write off our allies. None of us have enough friends to do that in the current world.
It's time to awaken that national will thingy and light up Congress and DoN until they fund, build, and staff the SSN/SSBN infrastructure. This MUST be treated like the B-29/Manhattan project. If need be the USN should be audited and programs cut. Kill the Constellation and decommission the remaining LCS if that funding will help expedite the program.
A very complicated problem. As such, no "easy", uncomplicated solutions. Regarding "allies" and "alliances"...I give you NATO, Germany, and espionage disasters. It is alleged that the USSR had more indepth knowledge of our warplans than we did thanks to the West Germans. Five Eyes was embarrassingly penetrated a decade ago, doubt it has improved. Small hand, big map approach: concentrate on your own problems, rebuilt your own capacity, and focus on self reliance. Because if / when push comes to shove in the Pacific, depending which party is in office will 100% determine which side Australia and New Zealand (actually, who cares about the Kiwis?) choose. Barring some sort of seismic shift, the UK and Canada are currently lost causes. Which, as someone proudly half Scottish, really hurts to say.
I like to look at these situations as if we were at war, and what decisions would be made.
-If we were at war, we would just methodically retire LA Class subs that were not deemed unfit for duty? No blanking way. Add to it many of these that have been retired, such as the Olympia and several others, were doing great at the end. We won't have a shortfall if we stretch these subs one more decade by hook or crook. If you have a major overhaul needed, perhaps just put them in the reserves, with a reserve "shift" crew that mans them, actually works on them each month, and perhaps gets another active duty "shift" added for their 2 week annual exercise and take the boat out. Less wear, less tear, and perhaps more loving care given to the old gals.
-After their decade stretch, offer them (we still in theory are the arsenal of democracy) to allies that for a fraction of a new sub could throw $ at them and get yet another 10-15 years and stave off some obsolence issues as well. Think of the Turk's and what they accomplished with an OHP class frigate and the Aussies (some new build, yes, but it's the stretching out of life).
-That great lakes ship-building offer, I forget the details, but one that could at least try their hand at maintenance on subs to help alleviate the shortage issues today, let's get moving on it.
-combine stretching out life and actually getting 2 VA class subs made a year (that HAS to be done, no excuses) gets you in 10 years to what, 80 attack subs? Then you can start retiring as needed/selling/giving away. By then hopefully we are at one major superpower hating us, Russia realizing it's borders are more attractive to Chinese eyes than anyone else, and we have more allies with subs that are actually worth a hoot in the fight (talking to you Aussies and our Canuck pals, whom I wish we had given subs to in the past whether they were cheap with their D or not and please, let's not have the monopolize under Canadian Ice for US only thoughts or conspiracies or whatever. Each of those nations with 6-8 subs would be massive for us and offloading the huge weight of our shipbuilding misses, even if their subs are older LA class retreads.). Just my thoughts, but if you are in a war scenario, you use all you got, because let's face it, nobody wants to talk to the subs we will lose day one, in port, via cruise missiles if there is a sneak attack. Then you have a real shortage issue...
We aren't going to lift and move SSNs out of water up a half Canadian waterway. If they Cleveland crew is serious they would bid on some ships and be a real shipyard first. LSM need not be all Bollinger.
According to the ever-reliable Wikipedia, there are 9 Flight-II 688-class subs either awaiting decommissioning or awaiting disposal. Is it likely that these subs could be returned to service much sooner than building a Virginia for the Aussies? From a bean-counter perspective, I'm sure the cost of refueling and refitting isn't justified over the remaining projected life of these subs. OTOH, if we went to war tomorrow, wouldn't it be nice if our Aussie friends had 4 or 5 operational 688's with current electronic suites and a full load of weapons? Which will better deter the Chinese in 2026 or 27 - actual submarines or paper promises of better subs sometime in the 2030s?
CDR Sal- you have here, with the help of some others, well defined the "problem" with AUKUS as it now stands. One factor you did not inject is that, with AUKUS put in place by the Biden White House NSC, absent any real coordination from with DOD or the USN, we have seen other programs hitched on to the original AUKUS, almost randomly, further burdening an already tough-to-execute deal.
Your commentary was spot on but really devoid of a preferred solution. The idea of "loaning' the Aussies the two or three Virginia boats, or whatever/however the "loaner" component evolves seems asinine, if one understands the current concept, particularly give the operational status of the current SSN fleet. Please comment on that aspect.
Your overriding focus on the Alliance itself is laudatory but Team Trump probably will have no problem dismissing or degrading the importance of this Alliance aspect, comfortable that the negative aspects of the overall deal speak for themselves and define the "solution" (read: reconsideration = delay = eventual termination). Let hope for a surprise when the report/finding comes out, but we still need a "solution" that addresses the inherent shortcomings of this flawed initiative.
Four boats. That likely means one boat on station at any time with one in some kind of refit and the other two perhaps in transit.
One boat in the South China Sea means four torpedo tubes and twelve VLS tubes. Then it's a week to go home, then however long it takes to reload, and another week to get back to the SCS. Not a great "salvo size per month".
How much does this really move the needle in terms of deterring China?
Unfortunately, too many of us over here will screw this up.
CDR Salamander, spot on!
Focus on AUKUS!
Challenge is to incorporate South Korea into the viewport … Made in America and used in the USA Submarines!
Keep the Five-Eyes in your Order of Battle Books (OOB) because PRC isn’t going away!
Forget that Pear-Shape up image, please.
Focus on SECDEF Hegseth Broad Shoulder and Core Muscles strength.
It takes Muscle and Arm and Leg strength to : a) hoist self out of water and into life raft.
It takes shoulder and arms strength to hold onto rope ladders! Everlasting be those “Seals” memories!
CDR Salamander, why do you need ten (10) day respite!
We are at “War”! Please bring your tooth brush, three pairs of socks, your Bible and pictures of your loved ones!
God Bless America! That’s you, too, CDR Salamander.
Nurse Jane has your back!
Great picture! Chart Room works for me!
Thank you!
Swap out UK for SK, not a bad idea.
Worse things happen at sea.
For the perfect storm of a horrendous Australian Government to the current collapse of the US industrial base. If we don’t show ourselves and more importantly those who we m have charged with ensuring our defense that when we set our minds to making things happen they will happen no matter your hand wringing we might as well hand the keys to the CCP and turn out the lights.
I’m sorry but we are a larger more successful nation in every metric than at anytime in our History. Yet have forgotten what got us here. You are the fucking United States of America there is nothing we cannot do.
If it takes modern day McCarthy Hearings to route out the subversive do nothings & road blockers let’s get on with it.
Americans still do big things at speed not at Pace. Yet to many think everything is impossible so don’t try. SpaceX isn’t 20 years old & has flown more than Nasa.
The intercontinental railroad took 6 years yet California will take 60 years to build an intercity rail line.
The DOD has spent 25 years trying to figure out a new cloud. Yet a dozen private companies have hyperscale AI Datacenters in the last 2 years.
The iPhone is still a teenager. 25% of all housing in Texas has been built since 2010 after the mortgage meltdown.
So enough that we can’t do this or that and pick up a shovel and get to work. The best time to do this was to strangle everyone in the cradle who went wild with stealing US sovereign wealth thru the “peace dividend”. The second best time is today.
Stop focusing on Blue States that don’t want to build anything and pour the money and opportunities into the states that do. Though both Maine & New Hampshire need to be occupied to ensure we keep sovereign capabilities.
Team Trump has made some changes, though not at all sufficient in breadth and depth to steer America away from disaster. We are retaining many of the same individuals at all levels of government, both civilian and military, who have led us to this position. All of the Woke, DEI, Resistance folks must be treated like a cancer and removed by all means, drastic if needed. There will be some collateral damage that is unescapable. Breaking eggs and all that.
Sal: "Everyone I talk to will ID the problem, but we have yet to see movement to solve it anytime soon." We *can* do amazing things, but we have to start by gettng off our collective butts as a nation. One of the primary bottlenecks in sub construction is the number of shipyards certified for that work. Maybe Secretary Hegseth needs to fire a round across the bow of SEA 08 advising them that there *will* be two (three?) more nuclear certified shipyards in the country in the next two years.
Your definition of us isn't far from China in 1849.
Concur 100%. It would be a discrase to abandon our ally. Bug out Biden is no longer in charge. Get with it!!
lots to unpack there.
But speaking of 5-eyes, with the way Britain is going, and the way that New Zealand has been, does 5-eyes make any sense anymore? What, exactly have the kiwis contributed since, oh, well.....WWII?
Flight-ER-Doc: No, Five Eyes no longer makes sense, if it ever did. We are feeding information to countries with governments populated with people with ancestral (and more recent) ties to enemy countries, regimes and cultures. Just look at the UK's new Home Secretary: Cannot be trusted.
The mistake the US continues to make is consider the UK an ally. There's nothing there, zip. And Chuck better watch it, they'll be coming for him soon.
He won't be the last monarch. But his son might be
I have no time for my current Government (or its predecessors for something like 20 years) but it’s a funny thing, from my distant viewpoint in the UK, it sometimes looks like you’ll be gone before us. And I base that on US media as well as our own.
However, I think that tells you much more about how misleading sensationalist media reporting can be - and the lack of understanding we all have about other countries - than it does about the reality of the situation. We all need to be very careful that we don’t believe our own propaganda and don’t write off our allies. None of us have enough friends to do that in the current world.
It's time to awaken that national will thingy and light up Congress and DoN until they fund, build, and staff the SSN/SSBN infrastructure. This MUST be treated like the B-29/Manhattan project. If need be the USN should be audited and programs cut. Kill the Constellation and decommission the remaining LCS if that funding will help expedite the program.
Jetcal1: Yeah, the Constellation appears to be headed nowhere and the LCS is already there.
We have people here who lived in or around the OSD. I'd really like it if they chimed in with some suggestions.
A very complicated problem. As such, no "easy", uncomplicated solutions. Regarding "allies" and "alliances"...I give you NATO, Germany, and espionage disasters. It is alleged that the USSR had more indepth knowledge of our warplans than we did thanks to the West Germans. Five Eyes was embarrassingly penetrated a decade ago, doubt it has improved. Small hand, big map approach: concentrate on your own problems, rebuilt your own capacity, and focus on self reliance. Because if / when push comes to shove in the Pacific, depending which party is in office will 100% determine which side Australia and New Zealand (actually, who cares about the Kiwis?) choose. Barring some sort of seismic shift, the UK and Canada are currently lost causes. Which, as someone proudly half Scottish, really hurts to say.
I used to worry about the secessionists in Quebec back in the day. Now I am hoping that bug spreads successfully to the prairie provinces.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XEmGIzwSC4&t=3s&ab_channel=CanadianReporter
I like to look at these situations as if we were at war, and what decisions would be made.
-If we were at war, we would just methodically retire LA Class subs that were not deemed unfit for duty? No blanking way. Add to it many of these that have been retired, such as the Olympia and several others, were doing great at the end. We won't have a shortfall if we stretch these subs one more decade by hook or crook. If you have a major overhaul needed, perhaps just put them in the reserves, with a reserve "shift" crew that mans them, actually works on them each month, and perhaps gets another active duty "shift" added for their 2 week annual exercise and take the boat out. Less wear, less tear, and perhaps more loving care given to the old gals.
-After their decade stretch, offer them (we still in theory are the arsenal of democracy) to allies that for a fraction of a new sub could throw $ at them and get yet another 10-15 years and stave off some obsolence issues as well. Think of the Turk's and what they accomplished with an OHP class frigate and the Aussies (some new build, yes, but it's the stretching out of life).
-That great lakes ship-building offer, I forget the details, but one that could at least try their hand at maintenance on subs to help alleviate the shortage issues today, let's get moving on it.
-combine stretching out life and actually getting 2 VA class subs made a year (that HAS to be done, no excuses) gets you in 10 years to what, 80 attack subs? Then you can start retiring as needed/selling/giving away. By then hopefully we are at one major superpower hating us, Russia realizing it's borders are more attractive to Chinese eyes than anyone else, and we have more allies with subs that are actually worth a hoot in the fight (talking to you Aussies and our Canuck pals, whom I wish we had given subs to in the past whether they were cheap with their D or not and please, let's not have the monopolize under Canadian Ice for US only thoughts or conspiracies or whatever. Each of those nations with 6-8 subs would be massive for us and offloading the huge weight of our shipbuilding misses, even if their subs are older LA class retreads.). Just my thoughts, but if you are in a war scenario, you use all you got, because let's face it, nobody wants to talk to the subs we will lose day one, in port, via cruise missiles if there is a sneak attack. Then you have a real shortage issue...
We aren't going to lift and move SSNs out of water up a half Canadian waterway. If they Cleveland crew is serious they would bid on some ships and be a real shipyard first. LSM need not be all Bollinger.
According to the ever-reliable Wikipedia, there are 9 Flight-II 688-class subs either awaiting decommissioning or awaiting disposal. Is it likely that these subs could be returned to service much sooner than building a Virginia for the Aussies? From a bean-counter perspective, I'm sure the cost of refueling and refitting isn't justified over the remaining projected life of these subs. OTOH, if we went to war tomorrow, wouldn't it be nice if our Aussie friends had 4 or 5 operational 688's with current electronic suites and a full load of weapons? Which will better deter the Chinese in 2026 or 27 - actual submarines or paper promises of better subs sometime in the 2030s?
Absolutely agree
That would have been a good day 1 plan for Aukus, but not now. The 5 remaining reactor cores used and the ships are aging out in terms of dives.
Can we just accept that the UK is nothing more than a museum masquerading as a country?
CDR Sal- you have here, with the help of some others, well defined the "problem" with AUKUS as it now stands. One factor you did not inject is that, with AUKUS put in place by the Biden White House NSC, absent any real coordination from with DOD or the USN, we have seen other programs hitched on to the original AUKUS, almost randomly, further burdening an already tough-to-execute deal.
Your commentary was spot on but really devoid of a preferred solution. The idea of "loaning' the Aussies the two or three Virginia boats, or whatever/however the "loaner" component evolves seems asinine, if one understands the current concept, particularly give the operational status of the current SSN fleet. Please comment on that aspect.
Your overriding focus on the Alliance itself is laudatory but Team Trump probably will have no problem dismissing or degrading the importance of this Alliance aspect, comfortable that the negative aspects of the overall deal speak for themselves and define the "solution" (read: reconsideration = delay = eventual termination). Let hope for a surprise when the report/finding comes out, but we still need a "solution" that addresses the inherent shortcomings of this flawed initiative.
Four boats. That likely means one boat on station at any time with one in some kind of refit and the other two perhaps in transit.
One boat in the South China Sea means four torpedo tubes and twelve VLS tubes. Then it's a week to go home, then however long it takes to reload, and another week to get back to the SCS. Not a great "salvo size per month".
How much does this really move the needle in terms of deterring China?