The 5" would be better, but those extra 16 VLS are going to be more useful probably 90% of the time. Modern version of India Jones just shooting the swordsman in Raiders.
Back to wherever your AOE ate a torpedo due to her having insufficient escort assets. Hopefully she is sitting on the bottom inside a very shallow atoll.
The FFG shouldn’t be an experiment, buy the best available equipment and get it out to sea where it belongs. All this screwing around with the design will only get us another white elephant in a series of white elephants. If 120 mm HIMARS comes along and it’s deemed worthy for use with the sea service SHIPALT/ORDALT it onto whatever its best suited for.
There are ways to add VLS cells, for example the Dutch “M” class. The only 5” worth talking about is Italian Oto 5” 64 and that’s what this ship should have like its Italian and German cousins.
Oddly, the only official place I ever saw that written was some weird paper Senator McCain had published while serving. Its a shame we never get a real current evaluation and shoot off. We just end up spending more to invent new ammo that never gets here vs using their gun and existing guided ammo.
The biggest enemy of getting ships in the water is the curse of the change order. As I have seen in roadway construction, change orders are expensive. The sort that occurs in ship building is both expensive and time consuming. Either have a fixed design to build, or forget it.
Do we want to build warships, or do we want to continue padding NAVSEA jobs and provide for a cushy post-retirement job for the Flags in the MIC?
On the latest CavasShips podcast they discussed a case where a South Korean shipyard had a c/o request. SK said it would cost the customer +$10Million. SK received another c/o request, and SK canceled the order, saying the c/o would cause unacceptable disruption in its logistics/supply line. SK completed the ship build and sold it to another customer. That is the way to stop c/orders.
While COs are an evil thing, some are a necessary evil. As happens with construction plans, No plan survives survives contact with a construction crew. There are always things that don't get solved during plan design an development. However, that is not the sort of change order that has been making a hash of ship building. The Flags tend to start adding capabilities after construction starts and those often require redesign in large parts of the ship. Construction stops, and redesign and reconstruction starts. That happened with the F-35 as well.
"the first in what is expected to be around 20 to be built, is projected to cost at least $600 million more than its original estimate of $1.3 billion."
$2B for a Frigate?
I want a Brimley:
"James J. Wells: Tell you what we're gonna do. We're gonna sit right here and talk about it. Now, if you get tired of talking here, Mr. Marshal Elving Patrick there will hand you one of them subpoenas he's got stuck down in his pocket, and we'll go downstairs and talk in front of the grand jury. Now we'll talk all day if you want to. But, come sundown, there's gonna be two things true that ain't true now. One is that the United States Department of Justice is goin' to know what in the good Christ - e'scuse me, Angie - is goin' on around here. And the other's I'm gonna have somebody's ass in my briefcase"
"A spokeswoman for the Naval Sea Systems Command, the department that deals with shipbuilding, said nearly all the changes made to the Constellation happened during its design rather than construction."
Pet peeve. How many PAOs can NAVSEA possibily have? Just name the individual and give their title. They are only parroting what they are told anyhow. Its not like the journalist is getting engineers who actually grok the program. Oh, and if NAVSEA has an office full of PAOs then DOGE it.
The F**k-Up Fairy has been busy. Even a land guy like myself has been calling for basic frigates for ages.
At this rate our only hope for numbers in the next five years will be auxiliary cruisers using containerized missile systems mounted on container ships.
Good ole “Fat Leonard” as a metaphor strikes again. Flabby bored prize fighter finds new trainer who says “hey your fat and flabby and need to get into shape!” Sure coach as the athlete jams another Twinkie in his mouth. Then everyone sets their “Depends” because the new administration has the temerity to simply ask for some accountability. In the business world the US Navy would not exist at least in the procurement side and execution of a business plan. But hey what’s the rush, the Chinese and Other Bad guys love America! Nothing to see here folks move along! Sh*t got real a good while ago and time to dither is over. Hopefully we have a new SecNav this week, he decides to kick some ass and take some names.
This is bordering on the ridiculous. The Chinese will continue to wait as we unilaterally disarm ourselves. The only shorter term solution is to buy used frigates and give orders to South Korean shipyards to build an existing design as a stopgap.
Trust me...after the disaster in Ukraine no one is gunna be buying many M1's or Patriot
AD systems in any numbers either. The Saudi's know how that goes to. Dont get to excited about the F35 either...our allies get strong armed or fell for the Lockeed Martin corrupt sales pitches...the regret
I'll say this, whoever messed with the Frigate program should be thrown in federal prison along time ago and the Frigate program should be DOGED and face the wrath of Elon Musk and DOGE Team. I believe DOGE should Audit the entire DoD along with the Frigate program.
We should have NEVER, EVER tampered with the Original FREMM frigate design. tampering with the original design was gona skyrocket the cost to the point of being unaffordable. What the US Navy wanted out of the FREMM frigate design was to be a Mini Burke that was not ment to be. The FREMM frigate we wanted was for ASW, open ocean escort, Showing the flag, presence and escorting a marine ARG.
What should have happened is that we buy the FREMM frigate as is. Work around the FREMM Hull with our US made Sensors, software, hardware, propulsion, Weapons and systems. At the same time, I think DOGE should supervise the Frigate program. If we did that, we would have a working frigate a long time ago. Instead we have no frigate and we are burning our DDG's to the ground.
As for a stop gap solution, I say we take the US Coast Guard's Legend class Cutters and upgun the design to a patrol frigate standard optimized for ASW operations.
"whoever messed with the Frigate program should be thrown in federal prison along time ago." Some people spent 4 years trying to make that happen and now look where we are at.
"Work around the FREMM Hull with our US made Sensors, software, hardware, propulsion, Weapons and systems. " That exactly what they are doing. Tossing out reqs and just squeezing it in and we would have a very similar ship to Connie with only 16 cells.
"take the US Coast Guard's Legend class Cutters and upgun the design to a patrol frigate standard optimized for ASW operations." Agreed.
Better yet: Set up a committee of Chiefs and run all changes through them. I think even an O-8 would think long and hard before crossing a half dozen or so Chiefs
That gun is a crime in itself.
The 5" would be better, but those extra 16 VLS are going to be more useful probably 90% of the time. Modern version of India Jones just shooting the swordsman in Raiders.
The 5" can be reloaded at sea. The VLS cells? It's a long, long way to Bremerton or San Diego.
Agreed, but we have the 120mm Himars rocket coming. Maybe they could be reloaded at sea and you fit 9-16 per VLS cell.
And how far do you have to go to reload them?
Back to wherever your AOE ate a torpedo due to her having insufficient escort assets. Hopefully she is sitting on the bottom inside a very shallow atoll.
The FFG shouldn’t be an experiment, buy the best available equipment and get it out to sea where it belongs. All this screwing around with the design will only get us another white elephant in a series of white elephants. If 120 mm HIMARS comes along and it’s deemed worthy for use with the sea service SHIPALT/ORDALT it onto whatever its best suited for.
Agreed. We are talking about those with displeasure at having the 57mm we are getting vs the 127mm they want.
The Italian 76mm would be a significant improvement over the 57mm for not much extra footprint. That 57mm was a mistake from the day it was conceived.
Does that Himars have an anti-air capability? The 5" does.
The 57mm does
So does a 7.62 mm.
I’ve never seen anything beyond that experimental VLS loading rig at Port Hueneme, I don’t believe it’s actually being used anywhere.
There are ways to add VLS cells, for example the Dutch “M” class. The only 5” worth talking about is Italian Oto 5” 64 and that’s what this ship should have like its Italian and German cousins.
Oddly, the only official place I ever saw that written was some weird paper Senator McCain had published while serving. Its a shame we never get a real current evaluation and shoot off. We just end up spending more to invent new ammo that never gets here vs using their gun and existing guided ammo.
That Gun should be grounds for arrest of those involved for dereliction & aiding & abetting the enemy.
The biggest enemy of getting ships in the water is the curse of the change order. As I have seen in roadway construction, change orders are expensive. The sort that occurs in ship building is both expensive and time consuming. Either have a fixed design to build, or forget it.
Do we want to build warships, or do we want to continue padding NAVSEA jobs and provide for a cushy post-retirement job for the Flags in the MIC?
On the latest CavasShips podcast they discussed a case where a South Korean shipyard had a c/o request. SK said it would cost the customer +$10Million. SK received another c/o request, and SK canceled the order, saying the c/o would cause unacceptable disruption in its logistics/supply line. SK completed the ship build and sold it to another customer. That is the way to stop c/orders.
Which "we" are you referring to? The mandarins of Mordor on the Potomac or the denizens of the Porch?
Rhetorical, really. The Porch would not have failed in the mission. Flags of Mordor have failed and remain unaccountable, or so it seems.
While COs are an evil thing, some are a necessary evil. As happens with construction plans, No plan survives survives contact with a construction crew. There are always things that don't get solved during plan design an development. However, that is not the sort of change order that has been making a hash of ship building. The Flags tend to start adding capabilities after construction starts and those often require redesign in large parts of the ship. Construction stops, and redesign and reconstruction starts. That happened with the F-35 as well.
It's ridiculous.
Every time this comes up I'm reminded of "The Pentagon Wars" and the saga of the Bradley
yup, Monday. (sigh)
"the first in what is expected to be around 20 to be built, is projected to cost at least $600 million more than its original estimate of $1.3 billion."
$2B for a Frigate?
I want a Brimley:
"James J. Wells: Tell you what we're gonna do. We're gonna sit right here and talk about it. Now, if you get tired of talking here, Mr. Marshal Elving Patrick there will hand you one of them subpoenas he's got stuck down in his pocket, and we'll go downstairs and talk in front of the grand jury. Now we'll talk all day if you want to. But, come sundown, there's gonna be two things true that ain't true now. One is that the United States Department of Justice is goin' to know what in the good Christ - e'scuse me, Angie - is goin' on around here. And the other's I'm gonna have somebody's ass in my briefcase"
WSJ behind the paywall.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/the-warship-that-shows-why-the-us-navy-is-falling-behind-china/ar-AA1BlDn6
"Pray for DD(X)". Indeed, though unless the process changes even prayer is likely to be ineffectual.
Years of GAO, CRS and CBO reports have said the same things.
Of course, not sure ASN RD&A (Acting) and COMNAVSEA believe those reports based on today’s SASC hearing….
a reckoning tomorrow? https://www.armed-services.senate.gov/hearings/to-receive-testimony-on-the-state-of-conventional-surface-shipbuilding
"A spokeswoman for the Naval Sea Systems Command, the department that deals with shipbuilding, said nearly all the changes made to the Constellation happened during its design rather than construction."
Pet peeve. How many PAOs can NAVSEA possibily have? Just name the individual and give their title. They are only parroting what they are told anyhow. Its not like the journalist is getting engineers who actually grok the program. Oh, and if NAVSEA has an office full of PAOs then DOGE it.
The F**k-Up Fairy has been busy. Even a land guy like myself has been calling for basic frigates for ages.
At this rate our only hope for numbers in the next five years will be auxiliary cruisers using containerized missile systems mounted on container ships.
If we manage to lose Saudi Arabia to the Chinese fast enough we can use their 4 radically improved LCS variants like we did the Kidds.
I’d forgotten that Iran development. But not worth the trade. 😬
Good ole “Fat Leonard” as a metaphor strikes again. Flabby bored prize fighter finds new trainer who says “hey your fat and flabby and need to get into shape!” Sure coach as the athlete jams another Twinkie in his mouth. Then everyone sets their “Depends” because the new administration has the temerity to simply ask for some accountability. In the business world the US Navy would not exist at least in the procurement side and execution of a business plan. But hey what’s the rush, the Chinese and Other Bad guys love America! Nothing to see here folks move along! Sh*t got real a good while ago and time to dither is over. Hopefully we have a new SecNav this week, he decides to kick some ass and take some names.
This is bordering on the ridiculous. The Chinese will continue to wait as we unilaterally disarm ourselves. The only shorter term solution is to buy used frigates and give orders to South Korean shipyards to build an existing design as a stopgap.
And on the wrong side of the border, at that.
Trust me...after the disaster in Ukraine no one is gunna be buying many M1's or Patriot
AD systems in any numbers either. The Saudi's know how that goes to. Dont get to excited about the F35 either...our allies get strong armed or fell for the Lockeed Martin corrupt sales pitches...the regret
will only grow....
But I bet we can make Admirals faster than the PLAN.
Yeah, but they can shoot them faster.
So true on both statements!
I'll say this, whoever messed with the Frigate program should be thrown in federal prison along time ago and the Frigate program should be DOGED and face the wrath of Elon Musk and DOGE Team. I believe DOGE should Audit the entire DoD along with the Frigate program.
We should have NEVER, EVER tampered with the Original FREMM frigate design. tampering with the original design was gona skyrocket the cost to the point of being unaffordable. What the US Navy wanted out of the FREMM frigate design was to be a Mini Burke that was not ment to be. The FREMM frigate we wanted was for ASW, open ocean escort, Showing the flag, presence and escorting a marine ARG.
What should have happened is that we buy the FREMM frigate as is. Work around the FREMM Hull with our US made Sensors, software, hardware, propulsion, Weapons and systems. At the same time, I think DOGE should supervise the Frigate program. If we did that, we would have a working frigate a long time ago. Instead we have no frigate and we are burning our DDG's to the ground.
As for a stop gap solution, I say we take the US Coast Guard's Legend class Cutters and upgun the design to a patrol frigate standard optimized for ASW operations.
"whoever messed with the Frigate program should be thrown in federal prison along time ago." Some people spent 4 years trying to make that happen and now look where we are at.
"Work around the FREMM Hull with our US made Sensors, software, hardware, propulsion, Weapons and systems. " That exactly what they are doing. Tossing out reqs and just squeezing it in and we would have a very similar ship to Connie with only 16 cells.
"take the US Coast Guard's Legend class Cutters and upgun the design to a patrol frigate standard optimized for ASW operations." Agreed.
Absolutely on point! Lack of rigorous technical leadership in support of operational needs, and letting the "good idea fairies" run amock.
Take one O-8 and 3 O-6s; give them a fixed amount of money for 5 years work, and tell them all changes have to be approved by CNO in person.
If they don't deliver on time and budget they'll all be court-martialed for failure to obey orders, busted to E-1, and thrown out.
I would add they bring any design changes to be approved by CNO, Elon Musk and the DOGE team
I’ll do you one better send design changes and change orders to the front porch and if they can’t get 2/3s majority up vote it’s a solid no….
Better yet: Set up a committee of Chiefs and run all changes through them. I think even an O-8 would think long and hard before crossing a half dozen or so Chiefs