You mean like firebombjng Tokyo or Dresden. Or unrestricted submarine warfare. Nimitz was called as a defense witness at the Dornetz trial. Said he did the same thing and would do it again.
As if the Iranian regime hadn't been committing war crimes since the day they declared war by seizing our embassy! Or any of the HUNDREDS of war crimes they've committed since? Or the myriad of war crimes committed by their proxies the Houthis, or Hamas, or Hezbollah?
As much as I'd like to vaporize the last mullah and IRGC hideout, I agree with Sal; tell them "Don't make us come back to do this again!"
We don't need to seize their oil. We have our own reserves and Venezuela in our hip pocket. We just need to throttle the Iran regime's ability to profit from their oil.
It's going to happen, it's the only way to end this thing. It's the only way to kill the regime. No money, no army, no secret police. The Gulf states need control of the Gulf, forever.
I think denying the regime's ability to produce or profit is effectively the same as what you're suggesting. Seizing means holding, and it just exposes us unnecessarily.
A Persian Gulf Versailles. Kharg Island is the center of gravity. Take it, let the Gulf states administer it and the Europeans police the strait. We take about $50 billion for reparations and to repay families of America service members lost in Lebanon and Iraq, and for the war. The UAE take the other islands near the strait that the Iranians took years ago, and that they want back. We out. Otherwise . . . they start buying Chinese, North Korean missiles, Russian drones, and we are back AGAIN in 5 years. Bismarck would understand . . .
Agree that this could easily, and without much effort, turn into another Forever War. No More. I believe that Trump is very much aware of this danger and that he will avoid that trap. Vietnam is seldom far from my mind- the lying by almost every senior Political and Military leaders, the fake body counts, the idiotic "Hearts & Minds," the fake attack that Johnson predicated our wholesale involvement on, the despicable McNamara and his "efficiency" attitude, and his last book tour where he shed crocodile tears. 60,000+ of my generation gone. No more. I trust Trump to avoid this latest Briar Patch that tempts us.
It would be a "piece of cake" have you seen it, flat no large garrison, no resupply, no reinforcements, air cover thick as locusts, no defensible positions. Drones are overrated. And we have sophisticated counter measures now being quickly deployed. Everything DARPA has been developing is in theater now, promise, plus the Marines have been buying systems for years now. Weren't we just told last week the Ukrainians shoot all the drones down? Where does this notion that the American military can't do things come from? The evidence is contrary in every way imaginable. We come; we see; we conquer. It's the hanging around part that we should stay away from. Dien Bien Phu? lol 😂 that's a new one. If we want Kharg, we take it. Swiftly and decisively. And in my opinion, we haven't wanted the strait open. It's shown how feckless the Euros are. And how vulnerable our gulf allies are to this 47 year old meddling. We must destroy the regime. Oil is their lifeblood. It's elementary. Then the strait is open forever, no malicious actor to muck up the free flow of oil.
I concur to a degree with your sentiment and assessment. The missing factor in your calculus is Israel. Their fighting objectives do not fully align with US strategic interests in this war space, and as a result, US off-ramp options are not unilaterally available.
Maybe. Some astute military and intelligence initiatives between Israel vs Iran could easily sabotage cease-fire efforts, as just announced, and keep the United States from off-ramping cleanly and expeditiously.
The mutual/existential animosity between Iran and Israel is not going away simply as a result of a cease-fire/peace deal with the US. That's my point.
For example, from Iran:
“It is emphasized that this does not signify the termination of the war,” the statement said. “Our hands remain upon the trigger, and should the slightest error be committed by the enemy, it shall be met with full force.”
Maybe the Iranians will do something stupid in the mean time to sabotage it.
I see that the Iranians say "the wars not over" and that they will open the straights under their military supervision. Oh, and all the sanctions will be lifted to settle this.
Sort of sounds like the deal is they will let us stop beating the hell out of them if we give in.
I expect no deal will be made. I wouldn't be surprised if the cease fire falls apart in less than 10 days. And I do hope we've got our target lists updated and are tracking their moves as they clear rubble into the storage bunkers. Though, personally, I would not give them that chance, I've seen that ploy way too many times.
Israel knows that if the Radical Muslims are left in charge, Iran remains an existential threat to Israel. Perhaps not for another generation, but the threat remains.
You forgot or ignore one essential and unalterable condition: Iran's leaders cease insisting on the right to destroy the US, Israel and the worldwide Jewry. We did not start this war and like the Romans third go with Carthage we will end it for all time.
Regime change or the next war will start with a nuclear attack on Israel, in about five years. Five shiploads of ammonium perchlorate from China have arrived in Iran since the war started.
Israel should have simply responded with a limited nuclear response on the night of October 1st when Iran launched a war with Israel with a surprise massive saturation attack aimed at Israeli cities.
I agree. Bombing them into the stone age seems to have very few positives. Take a breather and figure out methods to defend/defeat the drones. Their success has been a bit surprising, I thought we had learned from Ukraine.
Fifty years ago I had a pretty good idea of how many millions of dumb iron bombs we had left. I'd like to see the B-52s last hurrah be dropping tens of thousands of them on Iran.
He has talked about power plants and bridges. It is the Serbia scenario. We dropped every Danube bridge in Serbia and took about 70% of their grid with carbon fiber over the wires. Didn't demolish the power plants but took them offline. So is it Trump being Trump as in the first suggestion or an attempt to panic them. There is not any way to end Persian civilization short of a massive nuclear strike which seems unlikely. A grid strike would be a spectacular finale setting up the come home ending. We shall see I suppose.
In poker, as in fighting, winners spend their time and energy looking for a way to win. Losers spend their time looking for an excuse to lose. Both are usually successful. In poker, at the end of every hand, losers want to talk endlessly about what might have been if something had been different. Winners just smile fearlessly and say, " Deal the cards !"
Let's call this cluster a win and be thankful that this doesn't turn into a Dr. Strangelove remake.
My guess has been that Netanyahu’s plan from the beginning was to “bomb Iran to the Stone Age.” Eliminating their ability to produce electricity is Israel’s best insurance Iran lacks the infrastructure to produce a fission device, notwithstanding an actual revolution from the people.
Spot on and someone should forward to those who think they are WINNING, but stupidly acting as such. Knowing your limits and time are key setting the phase of completion...
Got you worried, huh? Apparently he got other people worried too and now we have a two week ceasefire…now we know when people will blink. Audacity has a role in convincing one’s opponents. We will see how this plays out.
You mean like firebombjng Tokyo or Dresden. Or unrestricted submarine warfare. Nimitz was called as a defense witness at the Dornetz trial. Said he did the same thing and would do it again.
As if the Iranian regime hadn't been committing war crimes since the day they declared war by seizing our embassy! Or any of the HUNDREDS of war crimes they've committed since? Or the myriad of war crimes committed by their proxies the Houthis, or Hamas, or Hezbollah?
As much as I'd like to vaporize the last mullah and IRGC hideout, I agree with Sal; tell them "Don't make us come back to do this again!"
The Senate never ratified the Rome accords so it’s not a treaty therefore it is not our law.
No, he is legally able to do what needs to be done, a declared war is total war.
Rules of Land warfare apply.
They declared war on the US, not the other way around.
I don't recall Sal saying anything about war crimes, because that has not been an issue.
We're going to seize their oil. That was the real mission objective.
That kills funding for their nuclear, military, and Houthi and Hezzbollah vassals.
Don't know how you do that without putting boots on the ground.
More likely we destroy Karg Island and other port facilities along with power generation.
We don't need to seize their oil. We have our own reserves and Venezuela in our hip pocket. We just need to throttle the Iran regime's ability to profit from their oil.
It's going to happen, it's the only way to end this thing. It's the only way to kill the regime. No money, no army, no secret police. The Gulf states need control of the Gulf, forever.
I think denying the regime's ability to produce or profit is effectively the same as what you're suggesting. Seizing means holding, and it just exposes us unnecessarily.
A Persian Gulf Versailles. Kharg Island is the center of gravity. Take it, let the Gulf states administer it and the Europeans police the strait. We take about $50 billion for reparations and to repay families of America service members lost in Lebanon and Iraq, and for the war. The UAE take the other islands near the strait that the Iranians took years ago, and that they want back. We out. Otherwise . . . they start buying Chinese, North Korean missiles, Russian drones, and we are back AGAIN in 5 years. Bismarck would understand . . .
Taking Kharg is impossible until you force the Strait, first.
And even if you take it, you have made yourself drone target in anew Dien Bien Phu.
Agree that this could easily, and without much effort, turn into another Forever War. No More. I believe that Trump is very much aware of this danger and that he will avoid that trap. Vietnam is seldom far from my mind- the lying by almost every senior Political and Military leaders, the fake body counts, the idiotic "Hearts & Minds," the fake attack that Johnson predicated our wholesale involvement on, the despicable McNamara and his "efficiency" attitude, and his last book tour where he shed crocodile tears. 60,000+ of my generation gone. No more. I trust Trump to avoid this latest Briar Patch that tempts us.
Please report to the UPC office 0800 tomorrow. Hydrate before coming.
It would be a "piece of cake" have you seen it, flat no large garrison, no resupply, no reinforcements, air cover thick as locusts, no defensible positions. Drones are overrated. And we have sophisticated counter measures now being quickly deployed. Everything DARPA has been developing is in theater now, promise, plus the Marines have been buying systems for years now. Weren't we just told last week the Ukrainians shoot all the drones down? Where does this notion that the American military can't do things come from? The evidence is contrary in every way imaginable. We come; we see; we conquer. It's the hanging around part that we should stay away from. Dien Bien Phu? lol 😂 that's a new one. If we want Kharg, we take it. Swiftly and decisively. And in my opinion, we haven't wanted the strait open. It's shown how feckless the Euros are. And how vulnerable our gulf allies are to this 47 year old meddling. We must destroy the regime. Oil is their lifeblood. It's elementary. Then the strait is open forever, no malicious actor to muck up the free flow of oil.
Maybe, maybe the real objective was to cripple one of the main hubs of the North South Transport Corridor while damaging China's energy sources.
The next 72 hours will be interesting.
True. OTOH, have there been 72 hours of the Trump 2.0 Presidency that have not been "interesting"?
He neglected to say which civilization will not survive. Several of them are involved here. I count at least five.
I concur to a degree with your sentiment and assessment. The missing factor in your calculus is Israel. Their fighting objectives do not fully align with US strategic interests in this war space, and as a result, US off-ramp options are not unilaterally available.
My two cents.
They could be.
Just because it's not so good for Israel doesn't mean we can't bail.
Not like it's been convenient for practically anyone else in the world.
Maybe. Some astute military and intelligence initiatives between Israel vs Iran could easily sabotage cease-fire efforts, as just announced, and keep the United States from off-ramping cleanly and expeditiously.
The mutual/existential animosity between Iran and Israel is not going away simply as a result of a cease-fire/peace deal with the US. That's my point.
For example, from Iran:
“It is emphasized that this does not signify the termination of the war,” the statement said. “Our hands remain upon the trigger, and should the slightest error be committed by the enemy, it shall be met with full force.”
https://apnews.com/live/iran-war-israel-trump-04-07-2026#0000019d-6a36-d838-a1bd-ff365fae0000
Maybe.
Maybe the Iranians will do something stupid in the mean time to sabotage it.
I see that the Iranians say "the wars not over" and that they will open the straights under their military supervision. Oh, and all the sanctions will be lifted to settle this.
Sort of sounds like the deal is they will let us stop beating the hell out of them if we give in.
I expect no deal will be made. I wouldn't be surprised if the cease fire falls apart in less than 10 days. And I do hope we've got our target lists updated and are tracking their moves as they clear rubble into the storage bunkers. Though, personally, I would not give them that chance, I've seen that ploy way too many times.
I agree someone will break it they always do it is in their nature to falsely negotiate.
They have done this again and again.
There it is.
I believe Israel is as ready to end this war as anyone.
They are under the hammer.
Maybe their people are, not so sure about their govt. "Actions speak louder than words"
Well their government basically took away their guns, and sat back and decided they didn't want to fight war no more and the people agreed.
They grew comfortable.
Israel knows that if the Radical Muslims are left in charge, Iran remains an existential threat to Israel. Perhaps not for another generation, but the threat remains.
I feel that is true as well.
You forgot or ignore one essential and unalterable condition: Iran's leaders cease insisting on the right to destroy the US, Israel and the worldwide Jewry. We did not start this war and like the Romans third go with Carthage we will end it for all time.
Well, perhaps it will be the third US-Persian War before we salt the land.
Not sure what the count is now...is it just one, or are we calling it two?
Regime change or the next war will start with a nuclear attack on Israel, in about five years. Five shiploads of ammonium perchlorate from China have arrived in Iran since the war started.
Israel should have simply responded with a limited nuclear response on the night of October 1st when Iran launched a war with Israel with a surprise massive saturation attack aimed at Israeli cities.
“Let’s smile gracefully. Push the chair back. Stand up. Tip the dealer. Wink at those we defeated, and head out the door.
We’ve made our point. We control the off-ramp. Let’s take it.”
Thus the very concept of punitive expedition done and done - tada!
I agree. Bombing them into the stone age seems to have very few positives. Take a breather and figure out methods to defend/defeat the drones. Their success has been a bit surprising, I thought we had learned from Ukraine.
Surprising? How? Just take a glance to the NW and see what modern drone warfare is.
Yes, it's time to quit while we're ahead.
Although part of me wants to let the world see what a modern strategic bombing campaign can accomplish....
Fifty years ago I had a pretty good idea of how many millions of dumb iron bombs we had left. I'd like to see the B-52s last hurrah be dropping tens of thousands of them on Iran.
The B-52's last hurrah won't occur before the heat death of the universe.
Probably so. lol
Probably be the last source of power after the last sun dies, lol.
He has talked about power plants and bridges. It is the Serbia scenario. We dropped every Danube bridge in Serbia and took about 70% of their grid with carbon fiber over the wires. Didn't demolish the power plants but took them offline. So is it Trump being Trump as in the first suggestion or an attempt to panic them. There is not any way to end Persian civilization short of a massive nuclear strike which seems unlikely. A grid strike would be a spectacular finale setting up the come home ending. We shall see I suppose.
He is simply saying what is true, we have the ability to make Iran a non functioning civilized society if we wish and can legally do so.
Being this way is what you have to do with Islamists, they are always at your feet or at your throat. No in between.
That comment was originally coined to describe Germans and it is still true there too. Churchill popularized it but did not originate.
Well, it seems that as of 1830 EDT, there’s a two-week pause in hostilities. So an off-ramp is at least being attempted.
2 weeks for Boxer to arrive, Bush to be on station...... stay tuned, same Bat time, same Bat channel
..and do what? Sail in circles outside missile range?
I'm skeptical.
When was the last time a cease fire with an opponent of this sort actually ended up in satisfactory negotiations?
I think we would have done just as well to break everything we could in the next 24 hours and tell them "It will be really bad next time."
Unfortunately Trump's big weak spot is his optimism that he can make a deal. But he's wrong on this one.
In poker, as in fighting, winners spend their time and energy looking for a way to win. Losers spend their time looking for an excuse to lose. Both are usually successful. In poker, at the end of every hand, losers want to talk endlessly about what might have been if something had been different. Winners just smile fearlessly and say, " Deal the cards !"
Let's call this cluster a win and be thankful that this doesn't turn into a Dr. Strangelove remake.
Just curious as to where Israel stands on this cease fire?
My guess has been that Netanyahu’s plan from the beginning was to “bomb Iran to the Stone Age.” Eliminating their ability to produce electricity is Israel’s best insurance Iran lacks the infrastructure to produce a fission device, notwithstanding an actual revolution from the people.
I think the fury and hate and desire for eye for eye and tooth for tooth began October seventh.
Does it matter? The tail can not wag the dog.
Spot on and someone should forward to those who think they are WINNING, but stupidly acting as such. Knowing your limits and time are key setting the phase of completion...
Got you worried, huh? Apparently he got other people worried too and now we have a two week ceasefire…now we know when people will blink. Audacity has a role in convincing one’s opponents. We will see how this plays out.