2. Please thank William McMillan for his email. Kindly permit me to stand along side him in the Chart Room, especially if we are talking Fire Power to take out “Vampires”!
3. Good News from Walter Reed Medical Center, yes, that one on Wisconsin Boulevard, Maryland or Washington D.C.!
Neurology Department Surgeon Dr. B.D.
He will remember Nurse Jane. Honestly, I don’t believe he ever met a sharper, more lady-like septuagenarian. CDR Salamander, the good surgeon complemented me on my knowledge
"If the SALAMANDER BILL had passed, Burke would never have been drawn into this web, but it wasn’t and he was."
Locks exist to keep honest people honest. Just as motivated thieves will find their way past the most complex of locks, Burke's character--or lack thereof--would have allowed him to figure a way to bypass additional legal and administrative safeguards.
A system filled with temptation leads to systemic corruption. Systemic corruption turns the incentives for being honest and ethical into disincentives.
While it's true that there will always be theives who will break through any obstacle you put forth, that doesn't mean you don't at least lock the door.
Make the thieves put some effort into it! It keeps the petty ones honest, and it makes it more obvious when a good one gets through.
I was a very naive 2LT when I discovered that all the "duty, honor, country" stuff I'd been fed at the Academy didn't seem to apply to senior officers. I learned the rules basically boiled down to "give the General what he wants, moral or not, or he'll destroy you."
I think Glenn Reynolds over at Instpundit had some similar idea. If you retired you couldn't work for any company that you oversaw or had business with for X years. If you did whatever salary you had that was over what the government paid you was taxed 50%. May not be exactly that but close. Personally I think once you leave, no Security Clearance. You don't need it anymore, you are retired. For a lot of them their security clearance is a golden ticket.
Inertia? I can kind of see it in his case because he was Curtis LeMay. If you pulled it there would be an outcry so my guess It was politics. If a D pulled it the R's would complain. If an R pulled it the D's would complain.
If you do it automatically upon retirement then that would settle the issue. You might make an exception for someone goes to work for a contractor but it should be limited to only the project they are working on, not a blanket clearance. They should have to reapply to justify it and it would cease when the project was ended. My limit for holding my breath is around 1:40 if I just float in the pool and don't exert myself. Don't think that's long enough.
Clearances for such men were not normally inactivated for some reason. I could see a point if there was a chance they might find themselves back in the saddle in an emergency, but with Lemay's (and others) age it was unlikely in the extreme he would be recalled. It was particularly true in Lemay's case as he had heart trouble that finally killed him in 1990.
My dad was a no-college ex-Enlisted USAF Captain who became a pilot in WWII, and was assigned as some Colonel's AdC on a team inspecting SAC in Omaha in the 50s. The Colonel was skittish so he sent dad in to do the pre-brief for General LeMay. Dad said that LeMay interrupted him in a few seconds to say something like this: "Look here, Captain...You people just go do your G-Damn inspection and then move on so we get on with flying f_cking airplanes!" Dad said it didn't hurt his feeling a bit. He was glad to say, "Yes, Sir" and beat a hasty retreat.
I retired as an EDO LCDR. My security clearance was terminated, and then re-instated when I got a job that needed one. Nope, not directly out of the Navy. About five years downstream from that in my second position after the Navy.
I fully agree with the CDR salamander bill. The revolving door to lucrative civilian jobs induces questionable decisions while in a position of responsibility.
I'm pretty sure that would DQ them from working from any of the fortune 500 as well as many thousands of smaller companies. We should try to solve the problem without creating large incentives not to enter service or to bail at the O-6 level.
There may be plenty who could do it without any real problems. My brother works for a company that specializes in engine overhauls for engines not real common anymore (like UH-1). The CEO* is a retired USAF general. I've heard no hint of corruption in that (and trust me, my brother would have said so if there was, he's pretty short of filters).
So yeah, it can be done honestly. But it seems that as time goes on, it's done less and less honestly. And, of course, the few can easily spoil it for the many. Unfortunately, legislation rarely has much nuance to deal with such things and when it does it's so the nuance is fodder for clever lawyers to fiddle with.
*And being CEO and having daily control and responsibility is very different than being a consultant, director, or 5th assistant senior vice president in charge of government liaison. Especially, when your last military job was oversight of said company that now employs you.
A security clearance is not granted for convenience. If they need a security clearance, they can apply for a new one. No one cares about what it does to their job prospects- not America's concern.
General AI was "A permanent forfeiture of a military pension, beyond non-payment due to death or not reaching the 20-year vesting period, typically results from criminal acts like treason, fraud, or a dishonorable discharge after retirement, with the specifics detailed in statutes like the Uniform Code of Military Justice." "Unlike some civilian federal pensions, military retirement pay is not forfeited based on a felony alone. It is treated as deferred compensation for 20+ years of service, and revocation is rare. Convictions for serious crimes like treason, espionage, sabotage, or aiding the enemy can lead to permanent forfeiture under 10 U.S.C. § 858a (the "Uniform Code of Military Justice forfeiture provision" for retirees). However, standard felonies (e.g., fraud, assault, or drug offenses) do not trigger this." YMMV
Your comment stuck in my mind, so this morning I looked back at the Oliver North episode. I remember some of it, much of it vague. Regarding the pension, it appears that the General Accounting Office (GAO) determined the pension of a retired Marine Officer was an "office", which allowed Oliver's pension to be revoked under a clause in a Federal law governing document shredding.
How did the GAO get the authority to decide what an "office" is? That should be a judicial issue, not a bureaucrat's call.
In any event, the Senate, at the urging of our good Senator Helms (who helped me get all of Dad's WWII ETO medals and ribbons), had the Senate revise the shredding statute to, 'no person who is a retired regular officer of the armed forces of the United States shall be considered as holding an office of the United States.' The House subsequently passed this revision. And of course, Oliver was ultimately found innocent of the charges that led to the suspension of his pension.
Some wit had noted that if a Congressperson were found guilty of the same crime that Oliver was charged and found guilty of, the Congressman would not lose their pension. What a surprise.
In any event, most of it turned out okay for Oliver. I saw that he married Fawn Hill recently. I hope they live a long and happy life.
In Burke's case and in the case of the Fat Leonard officers tried in federal court, I wonder why they were not court-martialed, even if recall was necessary. The offenses were committed wholly on active duty and broke the UCMJ and regulations.
Should have been dismissed or dropped from the rolls.
It appears to be a case of "different spanks for different ranks," in which they get to keep their pensions, perhaps at a slightly lower grade, while a YN1 with 20 who flunked a piss test for pot or went AWOL during a crisis would be run out with a BCD or OTH with no pension.
It’s true, it might be some show trial or public purge. Without the killing I hope.
It’s possible that some senior officers have already refused orders, like for the killing of minor drug runners hundreds of miles from the US coasts with no express legal justification. Those orders may have been initially frustrated and rerouted though alternative chains-of-command. Hegseth might try some public humiliation for the resisting officers.
It may also be an exhortation and demands to break more laws, like invading Greenland or to put the military on US streets for some imagined “insurrection.”
Last week’s bizarre restoration of the (already unjustified) Medals of Honor for what Congress in 1990 voted was a massacre at Wounded Knee was a view of Hegseth’s mindset. The 1990 resolution was co-sponsored by John McCain, Orrin Hatch and other Republicans.
I'm about as close to a Constitutional law expert as you will find in these comments. Not only a lawyer but formerly employed as a State Department (INL) Rule of Law advisor.
I had to take that phone call from my Primary Doctor, S.H., Orange Clinic at VAMC 50 Irving Street N.W. Washington D.C., yes that place!
I’m sorry too!
In 2017, I had to “Go Dark”; that meant I had to disconnect every cable, power chord, connected to an Internet here at my home in Maryland. I literally flew by car to Saints Constantine & Helen Greek Orthodox Church, Riva Road Annapolis to pass a nite under the Office door, address to Father Kosmas Karavellas.
Then I had to drive South about 1.5 hours first Charlotte Hall, MD to give a Video Report … then when an appointment was made… to Ft Belvoir, VA. then… if that wasn’t enough driving…
Up to Ft Meade Maryland… to the Intelligence Officers for Russia, China and Ghana Africa!
Admiral Burke protected me! Kept me safe!
All that “Intelligence Data”, data from about 2004…2017…2019…the micro thumb drives, I passed up the “Chain of Command” on 26 June 2025!
My information was about the Middle East; Africa…and Ukraine-Siberia Russia, and Turkey, China, South Korea and Vietnam all not classified!
Congratulations CDR Salamander on realizing by the time you were a Lieutenant… you could not be bought by Civilian Contractors!
CDR Salamander, I agree $255K or there about, is a good annual “Guaranteed” income. I’m sorry if that was denied Admiral Burke.
Please recommend that Admiral Burke ask for a Presidential Pardon from DJT.
Please share that DJT received a complete copy of my Military Order with my photo in a Pink Ice Skating Dress, when he was 45th, about 2018. DJT and I go back to… he fixed my Central Park Ice Skating Rink…Fifth Avenue Trump Tower; Kenneth J. Lane inside on the Mezzanine.
Finally, inquire if my connections to Doctor William Howell of Johns Hopkins Hospital (Heparin) or perhaps to Tuck Tucker. Queen Elizabeth II asked Tuck to make the Port in Bermuda able to host Cruise Ships. I was at my family’s home in Hamilton on a Bay in the Family Mansion, with my baby son…that year was about 1999-2000.
I can remember most everything and will swear under oath how Admiral Burke protected me!
Does that help CDR Salamander?
Don’t give up a good fight! Nurse Jane lights the way “Forward!”
Congress has a 2 yr restriction on former Congressman working as lobbyists. I noticed in a recent article about former Congressman Sinema that she was using her contacts and I wondered how that was legal. Oh…Well you see you don’t deal with her directly but through the “think tank” she created. So the idea of your Salamander Bill wouldn’t have the desired effect… The problem is in people who see govt as a slot machine that they think they can jimmy to make it pay off for them…
There's way too many people that enter Congress as average guys (which often means a small businessman with a few million, chicken feed in today's world) and end up mega millionaires. That money doesn't fall from the sky.
Any elected official, at any level of government should be barred from later doing business or lobbying, including "advising" those who do.
I had the pleasure (or luck) of knowing 2 4-star admirals in their early days. One when we were in HS together, I attended his wedding and he attended mine, we did the Myrtle Beach thing after graduation where we actually saw Vanna White win Miss Bikini Wahini; the other was in 2 squadrons and my log book has several flight. And neither had any "baggage" upon retirement. One served on a board of directors for a non-military contractor for 2 years and called it quits, and the other just "retired". They both served their country well, and looked for nothing in return. Burke has given us a sad day of infamy for the USN.
A sad tale. The outrageous part is the civilian perpetrators getting off.
May the Universe ultimately deliver the punishment they so richly deserve.
Listen the civilian didn’t take an oath. I do agree they should be quartered but this POS is far worse.
Good Afternoon CDR Salamander.
1. I support the CDR Salamander Bill.
2. Please thank William McMillan for his email. Kindly permit me to stand along side him in the Chart Room, especially if we are talking Fire Power to take out “Vampires”!
3. Good News from Walter Reed Medical Center, yes, that one on Wisconsin Boulevard, Maryland or Washington D.C.!
Neurology Department Surgeon Dr. B.D.
He will remember Nurse Jane. Honestly, I don’t believe he ever met a sharper, more lady-like septuagenarian. CDR Salamander, the good surgeon complemented me on my knowledge
"If the SALAMANDER BILL had passed, Burke would never have been drawn into this web, but it wasn’t and he was."
Locks exist to keep honest people honest. Just as motivated thieves will find their way past the most complex of locks, Burke's character--or lack thereof--would have allowed him to figure a way to bypass additional legal and administrative safeguards.
The POS was a snake--end of story.
A system filled with temptation leads to systemic corruption. Systemic corruption turns the incentives for being honest and ethical into disincentives.
While it's true that there will always be theives who will break through any obstacle you put forth, that doesn't mean you don't at least lock the door.
Make the thieves put some effort into it! It keeps the petty ones honest, and it makes it more obvious when a good one gets through.
"We've established what you *are*. Now we're just haggling over the price."
It's probably gonna get worse before measures are taken to make it better.
There is only one Flag Officer I fully trusted. I called him Dad.
The Flag officer I was an AdC for, mostly but not totally.
The rest? YGBSM.
I was a very naive 2LT when I discovered that all the "duty, honor, country" stuff I'd been fed at the Academy didn't seem to apply to senior officers. I learned the rules basically boiled down to "give the General what he wants, moral or not, or he'll destroy you."
I think Glenn Reynolds over at Instpundit had some similar idea. If you retired you couldn't work for any company that you oversaw or had business with for X years. If you did whatever salary you had that was over what the government paid you was taxed 50%. May not be exactly that but close. Personally I think once you leave, no Security Clearance. You don't need it anymore, you are retired. For a lot of them their security clearance is a golden ticket.
Curtis LeMay was still getting classified briefings in the 80s. He had been retired since 1964, so why was he getting such things?
Inertia? I can kind of see it in his case because he was Curtis LeMay. If you pulled it there would be an outcry so my guess It was politics. If a D pulled it the R's would complain. If an R pulled it the D's would complain.
If you do it automatically upon retirement then that would settle the issue. You might make an exception for someone goes to work for a contractor but it should be limited to only the project they are working on, not a blanket clearance. They should have to reapply to justify it and it would cease when the project was ended. My limit for holding my breath is around 1:40 if I just float in the pool and don't exert myself. Don't think that's long enough.
Clearances for such men were not normally inactivated for some reason. I could see a point if there was a chance they might find themselves back in the saddle in an emergency, but with Lemay's (and others) age it was unlikely in the extreme he would be recalled. It was particularly true in Lemay's case as he had heart trouble that finally killed him in 1990.
Because he was Curtis LeMay.
Enuff siad
My dad was a no-college ex-Enlisted USAF Captain who became a pilot in WWII, and was assigned as some Colonel's AdC on a team inspecting SAC in Omaha in the 50s. The Colonel was skittish so he sent dad in to do the pre-brief for General LeMay. Dad said that LeMay interrupted him in a few seconds to say something like this: "Look here, Captain...You people just go do your G-Damn inspection and then move on so we get on with flying f_cking airplanes!" Dad said it didn't hurt his feeling a bit. He was glad to say, "Yes, Sir" and beat a hasty retreat.
He wasn't the only one.
I would expand that to include all government employees, including elected officials. Draft that bill!
Agree.
SFAIK clearances can be made inactive. That makes the easier to reactivate when, and if, needed.
But in no case should anyone keep any endorsements on their TS/SCI clearances. There's a reason for the SCI business.
They system has been abused way too much.
Need to know, not want to know.
I retired as an EDO LCDR. My security clearance was terminated, and then re-instated when I got a job that needed one. Nope, not directly out of the Navy. About five years downstream from that in my second position after the Navy.
I think that's the way it should be done.
I fully agree with the CDR salamander bill. The revolving door to lucrative civilian jobs induces questionable decisions while in a position of responsibility.
Honestly, I'd take it further:
Disbarred from working for any business, industry, NGO, whatever, that has government contracts for any service or product from janitors to bombers.
I'm pretty sure that would DQ them from working from any of the fortune 500 as well as many thousands of smaller companies. We should try to solve the problem without creating large incentives not to enter service or to bail at the O-6 level.
There may be plenty who could do it without any real problems. My brother works for a company that specializes in engine overhauls for engines not real common anymore (like UH-1). The CEO* is a retired USAF general. I've heard no hint of corruption in that (and trust me, my brother would have said so if there was, he's pretty short of filters).
So yeah, it can be done honestly. But it seems that as time goes on, it's done less and less honestly. And, of course, the few can easily spoil it for the many. Unfortunately, legislation rarely has much nuance to deal with such things and when it does it's so the nuance is fodder for clever lawyers to fiddle with.
*And being CEO and having daily control and responsibility is very different than being a consultant, director, or 5th assistant senior vice president in charge of government liaison. Especially, when your last military job was oversight of said company that now employs you.
A security clearance is not granted for convenience. If they need a security clearance, they can apply for a new one. No one cares about what it does to their job prospects- not America's concern.
IIRC, since he is a convicted felon, and assuming his appeals go no where, he loses his pension. Am I right?
General AI was "A permanent forfeiture of a military pension, beyond non-payment due to death or not reaching the 20-year vesting period, typically results from criminal acts like treason, fraud, or a dishonorable discharge after retirement, with the specifics detailed in statutes like the Uniform Code of Military Justice." "Unlike some civilian federal pensions, military retirement pay is not forfeited based on a felony alone. It is treated as deferred compensation for 20+ years of service, and revocation is rare. Convictions for serious crimes like treason, espionage, sabotage, or aiding the enemy can lead to permanent forfeiture under 10 U.S.C. § 858a (the "Uniform Code of Military Justice forfeiture provision" for retirees). However, standard felonies (e.g., fraud, assault, or drug offenses) do not trigger this." YMMV
I suppose you could recall him and do a GCM.
I ask the question because that was a threat for Oliver North. It was reported that had he not won on appeal, he would have lost his pension.
Your comment stuck in my mind, so this morning I looked back at the Oliver North episode. I remember some of it, much of it vague. Regarding the pension, it appears that the General Accounting Office (GAO) determined the pension of a retired Marine Officer was an "office", which allowed Oliver's pension to be revoked under a clause in a Federal law governing document shredding.
How did the GAO get the authority to decide what an "office" is? That should be a judicial issue, not a bureaucrat's call.
In any event, the Senate, at the urging of our good Senator Helms (who helped me get all of Dad's WWII ETO medals and ribbons), had the Senate revise the shredding statute to, 'no person who is a retired regular officer of the armed forces of the United States shall be considered as holding an office of the United States.' The House subsequently passed this revision. And of course, Oliver was ultimately found innocent of the charges that led to the suspension of his pension.
Some wit had noted that if a Congressperson were found guilty of the same crime that Oliver was charged and found guilty of, the Congressman would not lose their pension. What a surprise.
In any event, most of it turned out okay for Oliver. I saw that he married Fawn Hill recently. I hope they live a long and happy life.
https://www.upi.com/Archives/1989/11/03/Senate-votes-to-restore-Oliver-Norths-pension/8617626072400/
Alas, given North is 81, it's not likely they will have long together.
Fawn's only 65, still a youngster. :) In however many years he has left, I hope that being together with Fawn brings happiness to him and to her.
In Burke's case and in the case of the Fat Leonard officers tried in federal court, I wonder why they were not court-martialed, even if recall was necessary. The offenses were committed wholly on active duty and broke the UCMJ and regulations.
Should have been dismissed or dropped from the rolls.
It appears to be a case of "different spanks for different ranks," in which they get to keep their pensions, perhaps at a slightly lower grade, while a YN1 with 20 who flunked a piss test for pot or went AWOL during a crisis would be run out with a BCD or OTH with no pension.
Navy Officers protecting its tribe. I hope that next week, Pete fires many FOGOs and puts others in the spotlight and on a leash.
It’s true, it might be some show trial or public purge. Without the killing I hope.
It’s possible that some senior officers have already refused orders, like for the killing of minor drug runners hundreds of miles from the US coasts with no express legal justification. Those orders may have been initially frustrated and rerouted though alternative chains-of-command. Hegseth might try some public humiliation for the resisting officers.
It may also be an exhortation and demands to break more laws, like invading Greenland or to put the military on US streets for some imagined “insurrection.”
Last week’s bizarre restoration of the (already unjustified) Medals of Honor for what Congress in 1990 voted was a massacre at Wounded Knee was a view of Hegseth’s mindset. The 1990 resolution was co-sponsored by John McCain, Orrin Hatch and other Republicans.
No bias or hyperbole on your part. "Without the killing I hope." You play at being a constitutional law expert and a historical revisionist. Okay.
I'm about as close to a Constitutional law expert as you will find in these comments. Not only a lawyer but formerly employed as a State Department (INL) Rule of Law advisor.
I can't help it...
"..est bon de temps en temps de tuer un amiral pour encourager les autres.."
This translates to: "..it is good from time to time to kill an admiral to encourage the others.."
I'm even more upset that the good Admiral was a submariner!
The Salamander Bill is long overdue. But the SES corps should be added as well.
Edward Luttwak's work, "The Pentagon and the Art of War" (1985) remains a must-read to understand the mess we're in.
CDR Salamander, apologies
I had to take that phone call from my Primary Doctor, S.H., Orange Clinic at VAMC 50 Irving Street N.W. Washington D.C., yes that place!
I’m sorry too!
In 2017, I had to “Go Dark”; that meant I had to disconnect every cable, power chord, connected to an Internet here at my home in Maryland. I literally flew by car to Saints Constantine & Helen Greek Orthodox Church, Riva Road Annapolis to pass a nite under the Office door, address to Father Kosmas Karavellas.
Then I had to drive South about 1.5 hours first Charlotte Hall, MD to give a Video Report … then when an appointment was made… to Ft Belvoir, VA. then… if that wasn’t enough driving…
Up to Ft Meade Maryland… to the Intelligence Officers for Russia, China and Ghana Africa!
Admiral Burke protected me! Kept me safe!
All that “Intelligence Data”, data from about 2004…2017…2019…the micro thumb drives, I passed up the “Chain of Command” on 26 June 2025!
My information was about the Middle East; Africa…and Ukraine-Siberia Russia, and Turkey, China, South Korea and Vietnam all not classified!
Congratulations CDR Salamander on realizing by the time you were a Lieutenant… you could not be bought by Civilian Contractors!
CDR Salamander, I agree $255K or there about, is a good annual “Guaranteed” income. I’m sorry if that was denied Admiral Burke.
Please recommend that Admiral Burke ask for a Presidential Pardon from DJT.
Please share that DJT received a complete copy of my Military Order with my photo in a Pink Ice Skating Dress, when he was 45th, about 2018. DJT and I go back to… he fixed my Central Park Ice Skating Rink…Fifth Avenue Trump Tower; Kenneth J. Lane inside on the Mezzanine.
Finally, inquire if my connections to Doctor William Howell of Johns Hopkins Hospital (Heparin) or perhaps to Tuck Tucker. Queen Elizabeth II asked Tuck to make the Port in Bermuda able to host Cruise Ships. I was at my family’s home in Hamilton on a Bay in the Family Mansion, with my baby son…that year was about 1999-2000.
I can remember most everything and will swear under oath how Admiral Burke protected me!
Does that help CDR Salamander?
Don’t give up a good fight! Nurse Jane lights the way “Forward!”
I know Father Kosmas. Calling to confirm.
Congress has a 2 yr restriction on former Congressman working as lobbyists. I noticed in a recent article about former Congressman Sinema that she was using her contacts and I wondered how that was legal. Oh…Well you see you don’t deal with her directly but through the “think tank” she created. So the idea of your Salamander Bill wouldn’t have the desired effect… The problem is in people who see govt as a slot machine that they think they can jimmy to make it pay off for them…
There's way too many people that enter Congress as average guys (which often means a small businessman with a few million, chicken feed in today's world) and end up mega millionaires. That money doesn't fall from the sky.
Any elected official, at any level of government should be barred from later doing business or lobbying, including "advising" those who do.
The insane thing is the bribery was unnecessary. They guy would easily be able to get multiple cushy board gigs.
He just got caught. The system has long been rigged.
His only crime was pissing off his mistress, and she blew the whistle. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.
I had the pleasure (or luck) of knowing 2 4-star admirals in their early days. One when we were in HS together, I attended his wedding and he attended mine, we did the Myrtle Beach thing after graduation where we actually saw Vanna White win Miss Bikini Wahini; the other was in 2 squadrons and my log book has several flight. And neither had any "baggage" upon retirement. One served on a board of directors for a non-military contractor for 2 years and called it quits, and the other just "retired". They both served their country well, and looked for nothing in return. Burke has given us a sad day of infamy for the USN.