Lest we forget. If I was on the staff at Nuke School or Sub School, with the Australian students, I would makes sure to get our sailors there. And then invite them to join us on Memorial Day.
CDR Sal, thanks for pushing me into exploring this bit of dismal military leadership history. It's argued that our civil war was the first fought with modern, aimed weapons vice smooth bore muskets. The casualty figures bore that out, but it took even able commanders like Grant and Sherman overly long to realize frontal attacks on prepared positions were unacceptably costly. WWI and the machine gun were even worse for the attackers, but the senior leaders glacially slow learning curve and monumental incompetence gives you the "Battle of the Nek, the Somme, etc". I pray that the future doesn't have us repeating similar mistakes around, say, Taiwan. Lots of open ocean vice open ground, and DF type missiles vice machine guns, but the attacker vice defender math equation is similar enough to demand deep study before committing forces. We've certainly been "admiring the problem" for long enough, hopefully we've learned how to achieve success with acceptable "return on investment" for lives and treasure expended.
It's challenging to be optimistic on this issue when we have to learn from our past only after failing again. We forgot/ignored Vietnam in our Afghanistan war, we forgot how to do urban warfare after all the expertise we developed in WWII, ...
There's an argument that the generals did try to adapt, BUT, and we tend to forget this, they lacked the comms to really make it work. People tend to forget the Japanese won at Port Arthur with similar tactics as the "donkeys" used. However, they kept up artillery and MG support so to suppress defenders; so much so that 10-15% of casualties came from their own suppressing fire.
Gallipoli is my favorite (odd choice of words) campaign. Such potential and such disappointment and wasted lives. Every time I read someone saying politicians should keep their noses out of military affairs I think to myself, "Quite right; the military is quite capable of mucking things up all by themselves, they don't need any help". I also think that they could have used some of that "jointness" I have heard so much about.
Lest we forget indeed. Many brave men died due to poor leadership decisions. I am a fan of Churchill, but he owns this dismal decision on Gallipoli. Thanks for sharing, CDR Sal.
I absolutely agree. He did learn from this mistake which cost him politically. But, as a true leader, he accepted it and kept moving forward. Side note: Due to the mistake of Gallipoli, he was very cautious of the D-Day invasion.
Not poor leadership, the campaign was designed to fail. You see, there was no way the British were going to facilitate Russian access to the Med. But the Russians, trusting fools they were, made a deal where UK would get Russian oil interests in Iran in exchange for Constantinople. Planed ineptitude, plus some help from Trotsky, left the Russians empty handed and Iranian oil in British hands. As for the lads, a sacrifice for the empire to be solemnly remembered.
It was said that, as 1st Lord of Admiralty, a scribe was assigned to Churchill to record his flights of idea; out of twenty, one was brilliant. Gallipoli was not one of them, not a fan.
I had a work trip to Australia and stumbled across the War Memorial in Sydney and then had an ord mod that took me to Canberra to include going to sunrise service on ANZAC day. Lest we forget.
59,000 Allied dead and 57,000 Turkish dead in little under a year. It would later be said " Nowhere during the entire Great War was such conspicuous gallantry as foolishly and uselessly squandered as it was at Gallipoli."
I am always drawn back to the 1981 movie ' Gallipoli", starring Mel Gibson.
Seeing the film when it was first released, I realized it was a long and romanticized portrayal but to a young Marine getting ready for his first deployment it was a stark reminder that I couldn't run as fast as a leopard.
Alexander William Campbell (26 February 1899 – 16 May 2002) was the final surviving Australian participant of the Gallipoli campaign.
Shortly before his death, Campbell stated that "For god's sake, don't glorify Gallipoli - it was a terrible fiasco, a total failure and best forgotten." (From Wikipedia.)
The last class I taught at Damn Neck was all Ausies my wife and I were honored to join them at the bar they bought out for the day... learned alotvabout the battle and of course we were taught how to play two up
Lest we forget. If I was on the staff at Nuke School or Sub School, with the Australian students, I would makes sure to get our sailors there. And then invite them to join us on Memorial Day.
Those solemn ceremonies should be remembered.
CDR Sal, thanks for pushing me into exploring this bit of dismal military leadership history. It's argued that our civil war was the first fought with modern, aimed weapons vice smooth bore muskets. The casualty figures bore that out, but it took even able commanders like Grant and Sherman overly long to realize frontal attacks on prepared positions were unacceptably costly. WWI and the machine gun were even worse for the attackers, but the senior leaders glacially slow learning curve and monumental incompetence gives you the "Battle of the Nek, the Somme, etc". I pray that the future doesn't have us repeating similar mistakes around, say, Taiwan. Lots of open ocean vice open ground, and DF type missiles vice machine guns, but the attacker vice defender math equation is similar enough to demand deep study before committing forces. We've certainly been "admiring the problem" for long enough, hopefully we've learned how to achieve success with acceptable "return on investment" for lives and treasure expended.
It's challenging to be optimistic on this issue when we have to learn from our past only after failing again. We forgot/ignored Vietnam in our Afghanistan war, we forgot how to do urban warfare after all the expertise we developed in WWII, ...
There's an argument that the generals did try to adapt, BUT, and we tend to forget this, they lacked the comms to really make it work. People tend to forget the Japanese won at Port Arthur with similar tactics as the "donkeys" used. However, they kept up artillery and MG support so to suppress defenders; so much so that 10-15% of casualties came from their own suppressing fire.
Gallipoli is my favorite (odd choice of words) campaign. Such potential and such disappointment and wasted lives. Every time I read someone saying politicians should keep their noses out of military affairs I think to myself, "Quite right; the military is quite capable of mucking things up all by themselves, they don't need any help". I also think that they could have used some of that "jointness" I have heard so much about.
Lest we forget indeed. Many brave men died due to poor leadership decisions. I am a fan of Churchill, but he owns this dismal decision on Gallipoli. Thanks for sharing, CDR Sal.
He left government for much of the rest of the war, and spending time in the trenches. Quite different than many politicians.
I absolutely agree. He did learn from this mistake which cost him politically. But, as a true leader, he accepted it and kept moving forward. Side note: Due to the mistake of Gallipoli, he was very cautious of the D-Day invasion.
Not poor leadership, the campaign was designed to fail. You see, there was no way the British were going to facilitate Russian access to the Med. But the Russians, trusting fools they were, made a deal where UK would get Russian oil interests in Iran in exchange for Constantinople. Planed ineptitude, plus some help from Trotsky, left the Russians empty handed and Iranian oil in British hands. As for the lads, a sacrifice for the empire to be solemnly remembered.
I'd never heard that before; what a terrible plan. Given it's ony 14 years since Milner's South African concentration camps, it should be no surprise.
Same here. Did not know that. Thanks for sharing. Much appreciated.
Churchill had a good idea. It was the military's dismal executions (plural; Navy and Army) that doomed it.
Would like to see/hear CDR Sal’s take on the naval side of this. They were almost there…
"- they gave the last full measure of devotion" Salute.
Yes, searing is a good adjective. Such bravery.
It was said that, as 1st Lord of Admiralty, a scribe was assigned to Churchill to record his flights of idea; out of twenty, one was brilliant. Gallipoli was not one of them, not a fan.
I had a work trip to Australia and stumbled across the War Memorial in Sydney and then had an ord mod that took me to Canberra to include going to sunrise service on ANZAC day. Lest we forget.
59,000 Allied dead and 57,000 Turkish dead in little under a year. It would later be said " Nowhere during the entire Great War was such conspicuous gallantry as foolishly and uselessly squandered as it was at Gallipoli."
I am always drawn back to the 1981 movie ' Gallipoli", starring Mel Gibson.
Seeing the film when it was first released, I realized it was a long and romanticized portrayal but to a young Marine getting ready for his first deployment it was a stark reminder that I couldn't run as fast as a leopard.
Alexander William Campbell (26 February 1899 – 16 May 2002) was the final surviving Australian participant of the Gallipoli campaign.
Shortly before his death, Campbell stated that "For god's sake, don't glorify Gallipoli - it was a terrible fiasco, a total failure and best forgotten." (From Wikipedia.)
The last class I taught at Damn Neck was all Ausies my wife and I were honored to join them at the bar they bought out for the day... learned alotvabout the battle and of course we were taught how to play two up
CDR Salamander,
ANZAC Day is commemorated every year by the Australian and New Zealand embassies in DC. I had the honor to participate in them.
If you can, please reach out to me and I can connect you to these events.
"Lions led by donkeys" indeed.
https://youtu.be/-_eCYpOIKu4?si=Jk_B8r4diq2y8k4H
this
US and Australian sailors will be remembered forever for their doomed resistance near Java
full series is available on Amazon