NAVSEA will be on it only after funding is provided. As always, that refrain from "Cabaret" remains true - "Money makes the world go around, the world go around, the world go around." My memory is that the replacement for the Tycos got sunk at the pier by the costs of the DDG-1000 - $3+B in R&D costs alone.
How many people were fired or demoted for the Zumwalt debacle? About the same number as for the LCS fiasco. Still a revolving door for Senior officers into the MIC ranks though. Platinum Parachute.
I'm sure like every other major surface combatant they've touched over the last quarter-century their product will be an absolute record breaker in capabilities versus cost. Their track record with low cost combatants has resulted in unparalleled results. Truly a unique organization.
Only if you think the CG/CGN of the 70s were actually Cruisers when in truth none of them were. They were all called DLG or DLGN's when built and even for a time Frigates when someone didn't know what that meant. To truly be a cruiser it needs to be 600 feet or longer and have flag spaces and capability to support a real flag staff should it need be. The Tico's never could do that, nor could they keep up with a CVN on the run. The last ships that could keep up with the CVN's were the CGN's and that was their job. We haven't had that in 3+ decades now.
There are lots of criteria one could use. Armor, number of props. I think the one to care about is being the peak AAW combatant with an ability to support the staff coordinating a group of ships. easy to see where this blends cruisers and destroyers following WWII with the creation of the destroyer leader. Norfolk was very close to the size of the AA light cruisers. I think the key is that the AAW role started out with guns and could also do surface combat with the guns. I'm very particular to not having your AAW ship off shooting up a coast or sitting on top of another guy's sub.
Tico's were funded by Congress as DDGs. Burkes were beget as their light weight derivatives. Of course the Block IIIs now displaces as much as the original Ticos. The CGN's never got their Aegis upgrades. Here was the proposed future of crusiers and destroyers circa June 1979. https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1979/june/us-navy-cruisers-and-destroyers
The type commander came to visit Courtney and CORTRON 8 while we were in Naples in '73. I went to QM 'A' school in Newport ('72). Liked the place, but some of the civvies off base weren't very accepting of a southerner. I tried to get on a can homeported in Newport, but got Courtney in Naples instead.
I even made friends with some of the Marines posted there.
I never met any. But, then, I wasn't looking for that. I was still 17 and wanted a decent girl. The sort one finds at Church, and that's where in met my wife to be in '74 in Norfolk while I was on Sylvania and nearing my EAOS.
I never met any. But, then, I wasn't looking for that. I was still 17 and wanted a decent girl. The sort one finds at Church, and that's where in met my wife to be in '74 in Norfolk while I was on Sylvania and nearing my EAOS.
Wait until the Fleet goes Green and all ships become EV's, Captain. That'll be the last of the AO's too. We can lament separately, me for the loss of Cruisers and Frigates, you for the Cruiser's and AO's. Was in Cortron 8 aboard a DE in Newport RI in 1966-67. Served on 3 Frigates and 2 Cruisers.
My brief time working in a shipyard gave me an appreciation for Arleigh Burkes, and the differences between them and the Ticonderoga Class. There were differences as a C2 node in a carrier task force, which I assume technology has overcome in the last 20 years? (Yes / No, defer to current experts). However, the number of VLS cells we're losing is simple math. I really hope the narrative that the cruisers were "unsustainable" and had to be mothballed was accurate...
So does the good Major General mean only the people who recovered from smoke inhalation returned to duty?
I want to know what the Navy has against ships with multiple guns. Shouldn't the aim be to have, as Tim the Toolman Taylor said, "More Power!" When it comes to destroying the enemy ship?
Yes. One crossdresser steals airport luggage, and all LGBTetc get smeared with the same tar brush. I get the stress they feel. "This truth is reflected in the personal experiences of queer officials working on nuclear weapons issues. Richard Johnson, US Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Nuclear and Countering Weapons of Mass Destruction Policy, recounts feeling inhibited to speak up and contribute in a workplace culture dominated by traditional masculinity that treated homosexuality as a risk factor." Risqué factors are a bitch.
Reconsider, Sid. Jetcal cites D_ck J_hnson as having been hoisted up by his own P_ter Principle. Even if those 3 words don't combine to support the appellation of being a p_ssy, they do indicate being a shvantz.
This is hard by the area of Lakeview and Lincoln Park that -was- called Boystown....Until the LGBTQXYZ2 Fascists made the Old Gay Fuddy Duddies change the name because it wasn't "Inclusive"...
CRUISERS MORPH, AT THE PENTAGON, TO CRUDES. CAN'T GET UNDER THE BRIDGE? FLOOD THE TANKS AND LOWER THE SHIP IN THE WATER: MAKE SURE YOU HAVE QUALIFIED GUYS/GALS/THANGS MANNING THOSE VALVES, SO YOU DON'T SINK THE SHIP.
In 2004 we had 25 cruisers, 48 destroyers and 30 frigates, total of 123 CRUDES types.
In 2014 we had 22 CGs, 62 DDGs and 10 FFs, total 96 CRUDES types.
Today we have 12 CGs hastening to the breakers, 73 DDG-51s, some rather long in the tooth, a DDG-1000 with eunuch capabilities for a total of 86 CRUDES types. (And 23 LCS wasting funds and manpower for no apparent useful purpose.)
Right you are, Pete. Maj. Gen. Patrick S. Ryder is a career USAF PAO and speaks from a wellspring of knowledge. Let me add a little Biblical emphasis here..."Verily, vouchsafe to gainsay him naught".
Back when they were inventing the new 155 for Zumwalt and wanted it to be buried in the ship and shoot vertically, it should have dawned on them the solution was just go with GMLRS. Still is.
It is sad that we did not have discussions like you frequently present at USNA. It would have encouraged more of us to sea duty. Thank you for your very unique perspective on our government as it relates to Sea Power!
I served on a DLG that later became known as a cruiser. Coming from patrol boats and WWII built destroyers, I hated every day and the unnecessary crap that came with it. It was the main determining factor in deciding to end my time in the navy.
I believe the reclassification of those ships was to give more slots to marginal captains as the REAL cruisers left the navy. Soon it will happen again. Burke's will probably become cruisers and maybe frigates (if they ever get built) will be destroyers to placate the admirals that have given us an inferior navy. And they can say "Look, we have the biggest cruiser force in the world".
Senior military leaders need to get dirty and involved in politics. They need to inform and pick politicians that have the long term interests of the survivability of America. Obviously not most of the current ones. Then work to get those politicians elected and reelected to fund necessary military expansion and quality. Admirals and generals need to speak out in the spirit of General Billy Mitchell and point out the failures in congress and the presidency. It is as important as leading men into battle.
At the risk of sounding obtuse, I’d like to know WHO actually authorized the deployment of 1/3 of our Navy to the Middle East? Is anyone minding the GFPP / GFPC? Are the COCOMs making the requests and is congress informed besides the EA O4/5’s assigned to their staffs? Surely Biden knows how many cruisers we have left? I’d like to know which specific “CRUDES” is assigned. Oh right.
The Burkes were destroyers as they replaced the older DDGs, but have always been the displacement of cruisers.
Once the last CG is gone, there will be no ships capable of placing multiple guns on a single target.
Relax, NAVSEA is on it.
NAVSEA will be on it only after funding is provided. As always, that refrain from "Cabaret" remains true - "Money makes the world go around, the world go around, the world go around." My memory is that the replacement for the Tycos got sunk at the pier by the costs of the DDG-1000 - $3+B in R&D costs alone.
How many people were fired or demoted for the Zumwalt debacle? About the same number as for the LCS fiasco. Still a revolving door for Senior officers into the MIC ranks though. Platinum Parachute.
I'm sure like every other major surface combatant they've touched over the last quarter-century their product will be an absolute record breaker in capabilities versus cost. Their track record with low cost combatants has resulted in unparalleled results. Truly a unique organization.
Top
Men.
I have great faith in that statement, given my experience with LCS.
Only if you think the CG/CGN of the 70s were actually Cruisers when in truth none of them were. They were all called DLG or DLGN's when built and even for a time Frigates when someone didn't know what that meant. To truly be a cruiser it needs to be 600 feet or longer and have flag spaces and capability to support a real flag staff should it need be. The Tico's never could do that, nor could they keep up with a CVN on the run. The last ships that could keep up with the CVN's were the CGN's and that was their job. We haven't had that in 3+ decades now.
There are lots of criteria one could use. Armor, number of props. I think the one to care about is being the peak AAW combatant with an ability to support the staff coordinating a group of ships. easy to see where this blends cruisers and destroyers following WWII with the creation of the destroyer leader. Norfolk was very close to the size of the AA light cruisers. I think the key is that the AAW role started out with guns and could also do surface combat with the guns. I'm very particular to not having your AAW ship off shooting up a coast or sitting on top of another guy's sub.
Tico's were funded by Congress as DDGs. Burkes were beget as their light weight derivatives. Of course the Block IIIs now displaces as much as the original Ticos. The CGN's never got their Aegis upgrades. Here was the proposed future of crusiers and destroyers circa June 1979. https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1979/june/us-navy-cruisers-and-destroyers
I'm so old I can remember CRUDESFLOTs.
I remember CruDesLant. Are you that old? :-P
Why yes. In Newport RI then.
The type commander came to visit Courtney and CORTRON 8 while we were in Naples in '73. I went to QM 'A' school in Newport ('72). Liked the place, but some of the civvies off base weren't very accepting of a southerner. I tried to get on a can homeported in Newport, but got Courtney in Naples instead.
I even made friends with some of the Marines posted there.
My recollection is that the "Fall River Girls" were VERY accepting of southerners.
I never met any. But, then, I wasn't looking for that. I was still 17 and wanted a decent girl. The sort one finds at Church, and that's where in met my wife to be in '74 in Norfolk while I was on Sylvania and nearing my EAOS.
I never met any. But, then, I wasn't looking for that. I was still 17 and wanted a decent girl. The sort one finds at Church, and that's where in met my wife to be in '74 in Norfolk while I was on Sylvania and nearing my EAOS.
The system told me something went wrong. No idea why it posted twice.
Wait until the Fleet goes Green and all ships become EV's, Captain. That'll be the last of the AO's too. We can lament separately, me for the loss of Cruisers and Frigates, you for the Cruiser's and AO's. Was in Cortron 8 aboard a DE in Newport RI in 1966-67. Served on 3 Frigates and 2 Cruisers.
They will convert all the AOs to charging ships. They will be redesignated AEs.
Oh, wait, AE is already taken....
Sorry, we're going to have to spend too much in case of war in central Europe to afford cruisers.
Or a lot more properly crewed Burkes.
My brief time working in a shipyard gave me an appreciation for Arleigh Burkes, and the differences between them and the Ticonderoga Class. There were differences as a C2 node in a carrier task force, which I assume technology has overcome in the last 20 years? (Yes / No, defer to current experts). However, the number of VLS cells we're losing is simple math. I really hope the narrative that the cruisers were "unsustainable" and had to be mothballed was accurate...
Doesn't TBI mean Traumatic Brain Injury?
So does the good Major General mean only the people who recovered from smoke inhalation returned to duty?
I want to know what the Navy has against ships with multiple guns. Shouldn't the aim be to have, as Tim the Toolman Taylor said, "More Power!" When it comes to destroying the enemy ship?
The Navy has diversity. Multiple personalities to deal with multiple guns.
Be careful bandying that word "diversity" about, Pete. We might end up with a mix 'n
match of 76mm, 57mm and 40mm. And of course the Diversitites will scream, "That 76mm makes me look fat!"
Wish I could enjoy the levity...
But, it's worse than you think.
https://thebulletin.org/2023/06/queering-nuclear-weapons-how-lgbtq-inclusion-strengthens-security-and-reshapes-disarmament/
Queering nuclear weapons: How LGBTQ+ inclusion strengthens security and reshapes disarmament
One of the authors, Sneah Nair, is apparently shopping for a job, as this has seeped up like malodorous methane again...
https://hotair.com/david-strom/2024/08/21/queering-nuclear-weapons-n3793460
Yes. One crossdresser steals airport luggage, and all LGBTetc get smeared with the same tar brush. I get the stress they feel. "This truth is reflected in the personal experiences of queer officials working on nuclear weapons issues. Richard Johnson, US Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Nuclear and Countering Weapons of Mass Destruction Policy, recounts feeling inhibited to speak up and contribute in a workplace culture dominated by traditional masculinity that treated homosexuality as a risk factor." Risqué factors are a bitch.
So says Mr. Johnson.
I don't buy his histrionics.
Reconsider, Sid. Jetcal cites D_ck J_hnson as having been hoisted up by his own P_ter Principle. Even if those 3 words don't combine to support the appellation of being a p_ssy, they do indicate being a shvantz.
A Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense felt inhibited from speaking? What a spineless pussy. Peter principle in action.
Before I get to the point...
I live in the Chicago neighborhood called Uptown, where one of the highest (was the highest) per capita of same aex married couples live.
https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20150218/uptown/which-chicago-neighborhoods-have-most-same-sex-marriages-report
This is hard by the area of Lakeview and Lincoln Park that -was- called Boystown....Until the LGBTQXYZ2 Fascists made the Old Gay Fuddy Duddies change the name because it wasn't "Inclusive"...
https://www.them.us/story/chicagos-boystown-name-change-racist-history
Just want to clarify the point I am about to make is from direct observation over more than a few years...
I have zero sympathy for Mr Johnson. I have zero intrest about whom he may be close to.
He has chosen to be part of a "Community" that centers about open public sex as it's central tenet...
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Topless_woman_at_Chicago_Pride.jpg
Given the VLS shortage and the deficient Anti-Air C2 of DDG v. CG we can't afford the losses we are taking to the size of the Navy.
Only for lack of a plan. need those MUSV/LUSVs right now very badly.
CRUISERS MORPH, AT THE PENTAGON, TO CRUDES. CAN'T GET UNDER THE BRIDGE? FLOOD THE TANKS AND LOWER THE SHIP IN THE WATER: MAKE SURE YOU HAVE QUALIFIED GUYS/GALS/THANGS MANNING THOSE VALVES, SO YOU DON'T SINK THE SHIP.
Somewhere a Chinese Admiral is laughing.
As are Houthis and Iranians
All of our enemies and adversaries are laughing. MIC, laughing all the way to the bank.
In 2004 we had 25 cruisers, 48 destroyers and 30 frigates, total of 123 CRUDES types.
In 2014 we had 22 CGs, 62 DDGs and 10 FFs, total 96 CRUDES types.
Today we have 12 CGs hastening to the breakers, 73 DDG-51s, some rather long in the tooth, a DDG-1000 with eunuch capabilities for a total of 86 CRUDES types. (And 23 LCS wasting funds and manpower for no apparent useful purpose.)
How many are enough?
CDR Sal,
I wouldn't be too hard on General Ryder. Lots of Sea Cadets don't know the difference between a cruiser and a destroyer either.
Right you are, Pete. Maj. Gen. Patrick S. Ryder is a career USAF PAO and speaks from a wellspring of knowledge. Let me add a little Biblical emphasis here..."Verily, vouchsafe to gainsay him naught".
My biggest concern is the lack of firepower to support an amphibious landing.
Perhaps, that is why the Marines have not been deployed to Yemen.
Back when they were inventing the new 155 for Zumwalt and wanted it to be buried in the ship and shoot vertically, it should have dawned on them the solution was just go with GMLRS. Still is.
I will submit that the designation. "Cruiser", became unmoored as a definitive ship type when the DLG's were redesignated as CG's...
It was the Ruskies that delivered our death blow all the way back then by calling their DLGs cruisers and confusing Congress. Their Dim Mak.
It was all about creating 4 striper commands. Don't remember the Soviets having a thing to do with it.
The same time the entirely inaccurate appelation "Fast Frigate", became associated with the 27 knot single shaft DE's redesignated FF's.
It is sad that we did not have discussions like you frequently present at USNA. It would have encouraged more of us to sea duty. Thank you for your very unique perspective on our government as it relates to Sea Power!
From a Marine who wanted more!
As some one long in the tooth, if we showed all future naval officers the view behind the Kimono, you guys would go Intel or supply.
This was a 'Cruiser'...
https://youtu.be/CUi0-fV1ijM?si=Ym0wHMzip9aCRFGK
CLG-5, May 1970 to December 1971. Great ship, fun tour. Was dragged kicking & screaming back to CONUS to be forced converted from RD to EW.
I served on a DLG that later became known as a cruiser. Coming from patrol boats and WWII built destroyers, I hated every day and the unnecessary crap that came with it. It was the main determining factor in deciding to end my time in the navy.
I believe the reclassification of those ships was to give more slots to marginal captains as the REAL cruisers left the navy. Soon it will happen again. Burke's will probably become cruisers and maybe frigates (if they ever get built) will be destroyers to placate the admirals that have given us an inferior navy. And they can say "Look, we have the biggest cruiser force in the world".
Senior military leaders need to get dirty and involved in politics. They need to inform and pick politicians that have the long term interests of the survivability of America. Obviously not most of the current ones. Then work to get those politicians elected and reelected to fund necessary military expansion and quality. Admirals and generals need to speak out in the spirit of General Billy Mitchell and point out the failures in congress and the presidency. It is as important as leading men into battle.
At the risk of sounding obtuse, I’d like to know WHO actually authorized the deployment of 1/3 of our Navy to the Middle East? Is anyone minding the GFPP / GFPC? Are the COCOMs making the requests and is congress informed besides the EA O4/5’s assigned to their staffs? Surely Biden knows how many cruisers we have left? I’d like to know which specific “CRUDES” is assigned. Oh right.