No argument with the need; get Congress to appropriate enough money. Army Corps of Engineers canceled bids to make Nome a deepwater port because the bids exceeded the appropriation. Reactivation of Adak won't be free either. Get funding passed this year.
Neat short term answer. Second step would be to license the Japanese plane design for US manufacturing. We have tons of general aviation manufacturing capability lying fallow.
Yep. Or let the Japanese build them, help a key ally, send a strong message by bringing the Japanese back to Adak for the first time since WWII, send a strong message to Pentagon procurement who've been "studying" the concept for years and let Northrop/Boeing know that we're done f'ing around for the new wunderwaffe maritime patrol aircraft
If Shinmaywa could build more than 2 a year, sure. Their capacity is very low, so either license build here or through Mitsubishi in Japan. I have a slight preference for having spares capacity on our side of the Pacific too.
I do question the need for the flying boat at Adak though. If you go in the drink in the Bering Sea, you'll be an icicle before we'll find you.
I agree Greenland is strategic. I am still at a loss to understand why America must own it in order to defend it, though. Denmark is a NATO ally, and one of the more trustworthy ones at that. If Greenland is attacked then Denmark can call on us to help, and we will do so. What am I missing here that means we absolutely have to own it for US national security?
U.S. sovereignty ensures that a change in political posture in the future doesn't impact our national security concerns.
As an example, I point to what is happening now near Diego Garcia. The U.K., for whatever personal reasons, decided to cede sovereignty over Diego Garcia back to Mauritius. Mauritius has close ties to China. We now have no legal mechanism to prevent the Mauritanians from allowing the Chinese a foothold on/near our critically important naval base on Diego Garcia. Even just allowing a Chinese listening station would be strategically devastating for the U.S.
I imagine a future where NATO isn't as politically aligned, and the Danes decide to allow a Chinese "research station" on Greenland.
There is something to be said for timing. Don't raise Canada and Greenland as issues until after the Canadian election, when they've picked a direction for the next five years. I don't see any reason it couldn't have waited until the new government was seated. It was an unforced error.
Wow, you're right. If current trends continue, the 5% of Muslims now in Denmark will be the the majority in 2525 or sometime after our great-great-grandchildren are dead.
That's a good reason to declare them enemies now and invade them, even though they have fought alongside us in every theater of the benighted GWOT.
The dealignment will happen sooner than anyone in the U.S. or other European countries (excepting possible the UK-London) will expect. As Thomas points out below, only 5% of the followers of the Prophet make up Denmark. What is missing from that simplistic observation is that 50% of that 5% live in Copenhagen, Denmark's capital city. As anyone can tell you who lives is a U.S. state dominated by one metropolitan area (Denver, Indianapolis, Chicago, etc.) is that major city controls the politics controlling both that city as well as the hinterlands. The Britons are slowly coming to this realization as well. It is likely too late.
Your sleight of hand with demographics obscured the fact that only 10% of the population of Copenhagen is Muslim.
The whole concept presumes that countries like Denmark aren't going to change their Muslims in the way Germany has changed its Turkish population. Or the USA for that matter.
As far as big cities dominating the states they're in, it's a mixed bag. Not true in Massachusetts or Pennsylvania for example, nor is it even true in many countries like the Philippines or Spain.
Anyways, no reason to be making threats to allies in any event.
The problem with this argument is that it ignores the fact the US has turned a blind eye to harmful actions by our allies and partners for decades in order to maintain relationships and keep the peace. When we were the sole superpower this made sense. That is no longer the case. We are finally now calling them on it and they are overreacting. I don't see that as the sign of a healthy relationship. Remember, “nations dont have friends, only interests.”
For example, Canada has allowed China to abuse NAFTA by shipping their goods into Canada and then sending them by rail into US markets. Thereby avoiding US controls and US ports. This made the Canadians a lot of money, especially in politically influential British Columbia, at the expense of the US. Now that we’re doing something about it, they are pissed.
True about war plans, but I wouldn't go as far as that. The Canadian soldiers and sailors that have fought with us since WW2 have been good and competent allies. Their government, far less so.
If Canada and Denmark don't qualify as friendly countries, we may as well eliminate the category. The discovery that they are independent nations with their own foreign and defense policies based chiefly on self-interest seems to strike this administration as a declaration of war rather than a fact of life.
We don’t. I think you missed one of the chapters in The Art of The Deal where it says to set your first negotiating position far beyond your actual goal.
In World War 2 the Maginot Line was bypassed and the Germans went through Belgium instead.
Why did they go through Belgium? No fortifications on the French-Belgian border because Belgium was neutral. Belgium didn't have the money to put fortifications on their Germany-facing border so none were there.
There was a plan in place to push French and English troops forward to defend Belgium if it were attacked, but this meant the troops would have to rush forward and then defend without fortifications. It also depended on the Belgians giving them permission in time.
As it actually happened, the Belgians delayed, and the Germans were halfway across Belgium before they got permission. So the defense didn't work.
Things move even faster now. If your stuff isn't already in place it's going to be even harder to put it there. What's there now?
Denmark hasn't defended it and is so small it's doubtful they can.
Trump can be very annoying but he seems to have wanted greenland defended by denmark at no cost to America and he seems to have succeeded in that whilst also trashing some deep relationships we've had for decades.
Rather than basing MPA at Adak, why not base Triton at Anchorage? From there, Triton could easily cover the entire Bering Sea as well as huge areas of the North Pacific and Arctic Ocean.
What a great place for a few squadron of flying boats to cover the northern Pacific. Given that I don't know a thing about maintenance & crew cycles, how about some development of autonomous roaming fuel 'submersibles' that could be 'called' by the aircraft to surface for refueling (if the sea state allows)? Don't have to be that 'smart', so they could be expendable.
Many possibilities, only need the will to make it happen...
I have to confess a fondness for flying boats, in particular the PBY-5. My Dad was a crew chief on one in WW2. And then, of course, Jimmy Buffett owned one.
I spent entirely too much time on Adak, deployed there with VP-50. A fisherman buddy said that when the salmon were running, you could walk across the streams on the backs of the fish, without getting your feet wet. The winter weather was especially miserable; it was just warm enough so that the slush wouldn't freeze.
And if you like Adak for being close to Russia, then you should REALLY like Shemya; "It's not the end of the world, but you can see that from here."
Your last visual reference - that’s exactly what my mother-in-law, a dyed in the wool eastbank New Orleanian, said on her single visit to RESUPSHIP Morgan City.
My brother was stationed on Adak. As a souvenir he brought back what he claimed was a pebble from one of the beaches. It was the size and weight of a bowling ball. I still believe him.
A buddy spent a couple years on Shemya doing aircraft maintenance. He named his Great Pyrenees dog after the island, to remind him when things get bad here, at least he’s no longer there.
Adak was closed? I remember when there were plans for it to be home to the XBR/SBX radar/platform, but that boondoggle was moved to Hawaii at some point. Haven't heard anything about either for the longest time.
Newly assigned from CGSC to 6ID in 1991, our welcome to the staff was a requirement to read “The Ten Thousand Mile War”….followed by a week long Alaska Site Survey.
Adak was an 8 hour flight, to including a fuel stop in Cold Bay, from Elmendorf via AK ANG C130. …Elmendorf to Adak for 3 nights, then Amchitka, Attu to Shemya for another overnight, then to Dutch Harbor and finally overnight at Kodiak.
Adak still had the SOSUS and a McDonalds. Amchitka had blue suiters TAD up from Northwest in Chesapeake plus Ford Aerospace contractors. Attu featured 20 coasties up fro Kodiak to maintain the LORAN site and keep the airfield operable….and Shemya was, as earlier poster stated….you could see the end of the world!
Gave all of us assigned to G or J staffs a damn interesting “terrain walk” view of distances.
I had orders to Adak for a hot minute in 1992. As the majority of the Navy ASWOC and ASW squadrons were being reshuffled due to the Cold War dividend, my helo squadron was slated for decommissioning. Being one of the senior aircrew, and my full sea tour completed, all the detailer would give me for orders were ASWOC Adak or Bermuda. I chose Bermuda and then less than a day later the orders were canceled and told they were on the close list so I had paper orders to Adak. The benefit was, they provided furnished housing for married personnel. Less than a week later, those orders were also canceled. I didn’t care too much as I got a set of flying orders and a transition to Seahawks (SH60B) and a test and evaluation tour. But I always “wonder what if?” As I hear the old stories and see the rundown base.
Reopen it and the TSC / Sosus and while we are doing that, let’s take a look at Midway as well.
FWIW, when I got out I went to one of the "big 5" consulting firms, got married a couple years later, and was tired of being on the road 5 days a week. I took an assignment at a client only 75 minutes up the highway. A week later that client sent me to Japan for 6 weeks.
Good times:)
I had a good friend did a career in MH-53s; went to his 30 yr retirement a few years back.
A genial coworker forty years ago occasionally regaled us at lunchtime with his tales of Army service on Adak in World War Two.
Barren and miserable were the words that stand out in memory. But he would laugh now if he heard this reconsideration and would be all for it. This spot is vital!
“Thule (I’m sorry, I refuse to call it the politically correct…name.)”
Why stop there, Sal? Why do you keep calling Communist China by Mao’s “politically correct” name? There’s nothing “people’s” or “republic” about that despotic country. Cease with this “people’s republic” BS when referring to Communist China. Or, if you don’t have the courage to do this, then stop calling that place Thule.
Considering the situation with NOLF Coupeville, DoD will need to start thinking ahead as WA state government and its citizenry continues to be more confrontational and will pursue all legal means to eject any and all DoD assets.
It is not just about our access. It is about cutting transportation between Russia's North European ports like Murmansk and Russia's Asian ports (their overland transportation system is very poor) and between European Russia and China via the Northern Sea Route.
Northwest Passage is still not a viable commercial route, unlike the Northern Sea Route and is not expected to be for quite some time. But it is also not vital for Canada or the US. Northern Sea Route is a very big deal for Russia and potentially for China.
Exactly. An ice breaker can (usually) make the Passage in summer.
What does that mean for a bulk carrier, or a warship for that matter? Nothing. The Passage is not commercial, and probably won't be for at least a century.
No argument with the need; get Congress to appropriate enough money. Army Corps of Engineers canceled bids to make Nome a deepwater port because the bids exceeded the appropriation. Reactivation of Adak won't be free either. Get funding passed this year.
Do Nome too. Tough to threaten Greenland if these 2 bases contain China independent of any of our alliances.
Good place for a squadron of Japanese flying boats
Or even better, invite the JMSDF to base a squadron there w US strike cape
Neat short term answer. Second step would be to license the Japanese plane design for US manufacturing. We have tons of general aviation manufacturing capability lying fallow.
Yep. Or let the Japanese build them, help a key ally, send a strong message by bringing the Japanese back to Adak for the first time since WWII, send a strong message to Pentagon procurement who've been "studying" the concept for years and let Northrop/Boeing know that we're done f'ing around for the new wunderwaffe maritime patrol aircraft
If Shinmaywa could build more than 2 a year, sure. Their capacity is very low, so either license build here or through Mitsubishi in Japan. I have a slight preference for having spares capacity on our side of the Pacific too.
I do question the need for the flying boat at Adak though. If you go in the drink in the Bering Sea, you'll be an icicle before we'll find you.
I doubt Japan has good memories of the area LOL.
I agree Greenland is strategic. I am still at a loss to understand why America must own it in order to defend it, though. Denmark is a NATO ally, and one of the more trustworthy ones at that. If Greenland is attacked then Denmark can call on us to help, and we will do so. What am I missing here that means we absolutely have to own it for US national security?
"Because it's there".
Oooooh! I like it!
U.S. sovereignty ensures that a change in political posture in the future doesn't impact our national security concerns.
As an example, I point to what is happening now near Diego Garcia. The U.K., for whatever personal reasons, decided to cede sovereignty over Diego Garcia back to Mauritius. Mauritius has close ties to China. We now have no legal mechanism to prevent the Mauritanians from allowing the Chinese a foothold on/near our critically important naval base on Diego Garcia. Even just allowing a Chinese listening station would be strategically devastating for the U.S.
I imagine a future where NATO isn't as politically aligned, and the Danes decide to allow a Chinese "research station" on Greenland.
This. Like with so many things - it's the geography. Control of Greenland was not guranteed when Denmark surrendered to Germany in April of 1940.
The clumsy threats of annexation make the change of political posture and Danish dealignment with the USA a reality.
Trump running his mouth creates hate and discontent against the USA.
64% of Canadians now regard the USA as an enemy or unfriendly country. The Liberals just won an election on anti-US messaging.
Americans are solipsistic, they think other peoples don't have feelings too, or think "fuck their feelings."
Americans are going to find out real soon with the China tariffs.
There is something to be said for timing. Don't raise Canada and Greenland as issues until after the Canadian election, when they've picked a direction for the next five years. I don't see any reason it couldn't have waited until the new government was seated. It was an unforced error.
Danish dealignment is going to happen one way or the other, by politics or by a mass religious change to Islam.
They ain't our friends.
Wow, you're right. If current trends continue, the 5% of Muslims now in Denmark will be the the majority in 2525 or sometime after our great-great-grandchildren are dead.
That's a good reason to declare them enemies now and invade them, even though they have fought alongside us in every theater of the benighted GWOT.
The dealignment will happen sooner than anyone in the U.S. or other European countries (excepting possible the UK-London) will expect. As Thomas points out below, only 5% of the followers of the Prophet make up Denmark. What is missing from that simplistic observation is that 50% of that 5% live in Copenhagen, Denmark's capital city. As anyone can tell you who lives is a U.S. state dominated by one metropolitan area (Denver, Indianapolis, Chicago, etc.) is that major city controls the politics controlling both that city as well as the hinterlands. The Britons are slowly coming to this realization as well. It is likely too late.
Your sleight of hand with demographics obscured the fact that only 10% of the population of Copenhagen is Muslim.
The whole concept presumes that countries like Denmark aren't going to change their Muslims in the way Germany has changed its Turkish population. Or the USA for that matter.
As far as big cities dominating the states they're in, it's a mixed bag. Not true in Massachusetts or Pennsylvania for example, nor is it even true in many countries like the Philippines or Spain.
Anyways, no reason to be making threats to allies in any event.
The problem with this argument is that it ignores the fact the US has turned a blind eye to harmful actions by our allies and partners for decades in order to maintain relationships and keep the peace. When we were the sole superpower this made sense. That is no longer the case. We are finally now calling them on it and they are overreacting. I don't see that as the sign of a healthy relationship. Remember, “nations dont have friends, only interests.”
For example, Canada has allowed China to abuse NAFTA by shipping their goods into Canada and then sending them by rail into US markets. Thereby avoiding US controls and US ports. This made the Canadians a lot of money, especially in politically influential British Columbia, at the expense of the US. Now that we’re doing something about it, they are pissed.
No, they're pissed because we're making threats to their sovereignty.
There are war plans dating back to the French and Indian wars against the US, it is updated every year.
Today somewhere secretly there is a full war plan to take down Canada as a training exercise no doubt, but it is there.
Canada has never been and ally or friend to the US except by lip service.
True about war plans, but I wouldn't go as far as that. The Canadian soldiers and sailors that have fought with us since WW2 have been good and competent allies. Their government, far less so.
True but like ours their government runs their military and defense spending.
If Canada and Denmark don't qualify as friendly countries, we may as well eliminate the category. The discovery that they are independent nations with their own foreign and defense policies based chiefly on self-interest seems to strike this administration as a declaration of war rather than a fact of life.
Look at you cheering on totalitarian China and Russia. Bravo...
We don’t. I think you missed one of the chapters in The Art of The Deal where it says to set your first negotiating position far beyond your actual goal.
Bingo. It was a ploy to get Denmark off their complacent asses, and I believe it's working with them upping infrastructure spending.
Eh I think other countries are far more deserving of being bullied than Denmark.
All of the European bums need to be bullied The US can leave and let RU bully them.
It is their choice, work with us or face RU alone.
It's just words, costs very little. We can nudge everyone who deserves it:)
GIUK gap, and Greenland and European politics and ethnic changes to Islam may make using the base impossible.
Because Denmark is poor and treats Greenland like a public housing project.
In World War 2 the Maginot Line was bypassed and the Germans went through Belgium instead.
Why did they go through Belgium? No fortifications on the French-Belgian border because Belgium was neutral. Belgium didn't have the money to put fortifications on their Germany-facing border so none were there.
There was a plan in place to push French and English troops forward to defend Belgium if it were attacked, but this meant the troops would have to rush forward and then defend without fortifications. It also depended on the Belgians giving them permission in time.
As it actually happened, the Belgians delayed, and the Germans were halfway across Belgium before they got permission. So the defense didn't work.
Things move even faster now. If your stuff isn't already in place it's going to be even harder to put it there. What's there now?
Denmark hasn't defended it and is so small it's doubtful they can.
Trump can be very annoying but he seems to have wanted greenland defended by denmark at no cost to America and he seems to have succeeded in that whilst also trashing some deep relationships we've had for decades.
Rather than basing MPA at Adak, why not base Triton at Anchorage? From there, Triton could easily cover the entire Bering Sea as well as huge areas of the North Pacific and Arctic Ocean.
My memory is fuzzy. Triton?
Perhaps the MQ-4C Triton, a long-range recon drone?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_MQ-4C_Triton
Thank you. Brain fart.
Or both. MPA has a SAR function too
Why not both? Redundancy has a quality all its own.
And don't forget getting a couple of the Finnish ice-hardened corvettes. Or put some Finns in charge of a yard to make them.
The secondary part of your suggestion gets around a whole flock of preventative laws.
What a great place for a few squadron of flying boats to cover the northern Pacific. Given that I don't know a thing about maintenance & crew cycles, how about some development of autonomous roaming fuel 'submersibles' that could be 'called' by the aircraft to surface for refueling (if the sea state allows)? Don't have to be that 'smart', so they could be expendable.
Many possibilities, only need the will to make it happen...
I have to confess a fondness for flying boats, in particular the PBY-5. My Dad was a crew chief on one in WW2. And then, of course, Jimmy Buffett owned one.
I spent entirely too much time on Adak, deployed there with VP-50. A fisherman buddy said that when the salmon were running, you could walk across the streams on the backs of the fish, without getting your feet wet. The winter weather was especially miserable; it was just warm enough so that the slush wouldn't freeze.
And if you like Adak for being close to Russia, then you should REALLY like Shemya; "It's not the end of the world, but you can see that from here."
Your last visual reference - that’s exactly what my mother-in-law, a dyed in the wool eastbank New Orleanian, said on her single visit to RESUPSHIP Morgan City.
My brother was stationed on Adak. As a souvenir he brought back what he claimed was a pebble from one of the beaches. It was the size and weight of a bowling ball. I still believe him.
The beaches were fine black sand when I lived there.
A buddy spent a couple years on Shemya doing aircraft maintenance. He named his Great Pyrenees dog after the island, to remind him when things get bad here, at least he’s no longer there.
Adak was closed? I remember when there were plans for it to be home to the XBR/SBX radar/platform, but that boondoggle was moved to Hawaii at some point. Haven't heard anything about either for the longest time.
I agree about both Adak and Nome, btw.
Newly assigned from CGSC to 6ID in 1991, our welcome to the staff was a requirement to read “The Ten Thousand Mile War”….followed by a week long Alaska Site Survey.
Adak was an 8 hour flight, to including a fuel stop in Cold Bay, from Elmendorf via AK ANG C130. …Elmendorf to Adak for 3 nights, then Amchitka, Attu to Shemya for another overnight, then to Dutch Harbor and finally overnight at Kodiak.
Adak still had the SOSUS and a McDonalds. Amchitka had blue suiters TAD up from Northwest in Chesapeake plus Ford Aerospace contractors. Attu featured 20 coasties up fro Kodiak to maintain the LORAN site and keep the airfield operable….and Shemya was, as earlier poster stated….you could see the end of the world!
Gave all of us assigned to G or J staffs a damn interesting “terrain walk” view of distances.
Whatever happens in China, it seems unlikely that they will become part of the Caliphate. I am less sure about Europe.
I had orders to Adak for a hot minute in 1992. As the majority of the Navy ASWOC and ASW squadrons were being reshuffled due to the Cold War dividend, my helo squadron was slated for decommissioning. Being one of the senior aircrew, and my full sea tour completed, all the detailer would give me for orders were ASWOC Adak or Bermuda. I chose Bermuda and then less than a day later the orders were canceled and told they were on the close list so I had paper orders to Adak. The benefit was, they provided furnished housing for married personnel. Less than a week later, those orders were also canceled. I didn’t care too much as I got a set of flying orders and a transition to Seahawks (SH60B) and a test and evaluation tour. But I always “wonder what if?” As I hear the old stories and see the rundown base.
Reopen it and the TSC / Sosus and while we are doing that, let’s take a look at Midway as well.
FWIW, when I got out I went to one of the "big 5" consulting firms, got married a couple years later, and was tired of being on the road 5 days a week. I took an assignment at a client only 75 minutes up the highway. A week later that client sent me to Japan for 6 weeks.
Good times:)
I had a good friend did a career in MH-53s; went to his 30 yr retirement a few years back.
heh! my mind went.....Uhmmm..."SLOC" first, and "Arctic" second.
and only then did I read on.....
Great minds think alike!
A genial coworker forty years ago occasionally regaled us at lunchtime with his tales of Army service on Adak in World War Two.
Barren and miserable were the words that stand out in memory. But he would laugh now if he heard this reconsideration and would be all for it. This spot is vital!
“Thule (I’m sorry, I refuse to call it the politically correct…name.)”
Why stop there, Sal? Why do you keep calling Communist China by Mao’s “politically correct” name? There’s nothing “people’s” or “republic” about that despotic country. Cease with this “people’s republic” BS when referring to Communist China. Or, if you don’t have the courage to do this, then stop calling that place Thule.
"Communist Rebel-held China".
West Taiwan
"We have our bases in Washington State"
Considering the situation with NOLF Coupeville, DoD will need to start thinking ahead as WA state government and its citizenry continues to be more confrontational and will pursue all legal means to eject any and all DoD assets.
Good luck to them.
It is not just about our access. It is about cutting transportation between Russia's North European ports like Murmansk and Russia's Asian ports (their overland transportation system is very poor) and between European Russia and China via the Northern Sea Route.
The Northwest Passage is almost completely Canadian territorial water. Canada is almost impotent to police it or protect it year-round ☹️
Northwest Passage is still not a viable commercial route, unlike the Northern Sea Route and is not expected to be for quite some time. But it is also not vital for Canada or the US. Northern Sea Route is a very big deal for Russia and potentially for China.
Exactly. An ice breaker can (usually) make the Passage in summer.
What does that mean for a bulk carrier, or a warship for that matter? Nothing. The Passage is not commercial, and probably won't be for at least a century.