When I saw this post by Ms. Winters, wondered if you would pick up on it. Had some personal experience with then U.S. Ambassador to China Prueher in 2000 that raised my spider sense on his...approach to China (Duh...). Guessing he remains a "panda hugger" , which is a nice way of saying an odd sense of "advocacy" cloaked in "reasonable language". "Service to the nation" certainly appears to have taken a back seat to "service to self" for this list of people. At a minimum, being on this list creates a lot of obvious questions that if answered a particular way, might explain a lot of dysfunctional decisions in our DOW(D) over the last couple of decades. Just might. Just possibly. Perhaps. IMO, YMMV.
We need a new slogan...Fear of being found out...FOBFO. A derivative of FAFO. Think there were some guilty minds in the room when Hegseth addressed all of the flags? CI types could have a field day with a Prisoner's Dilemma approach to rolling this up...unless they're not already on the payroll and part of the "game".
SECSTATE George Schultz had a test for new ambassadors. He would call them into his office and ask them to point to their country on a large globe. They invariably pointed to where they were going. He corrected them by pointing to the US.
Why should the retired Flags care? Most of them have been focused for decades on how to make mega$$ in their post-retirement years. Blatant swinging doors between the retired Flags and the Defense Industry is a disgrace to the entire military. Even the most flagrant abuses by Flags who were guilty of taking bribes from and assisting Fat Leonard received little more than a slap on the wrist. One Admiral, ONE (Rear Admiral Robert Gilbeau), spent time behind bars. Others, like Retired Admiral Mark Montgomery, are still treated as honorable retired Navy Officers, instead of the criminal, dishonorable grifters that they showed themselves to be. There is no public evidence that Montgomery has had his security clearance revoked or suspended. Big Navy and the GOFO Protective Society protect their own, honor and integrity be damned. Yeah, why should Americans be so cynical?
On the flip side, at least if they go to the defense contractors they aren't selling out to the actual enemy. Just... more of a mostly aligned adversarial ally.
Nope. Sorry. There is almost certainly corruption involved in the process. America deserves better, and our military must be held to a higher standard. We need to implement the CDR Salamander bill:
"SALAMANDER BILL
For a period of no less than five years from their effective date of retirement, General Officers and Flag Officers shall not be employed by, nor act as independent contractors or subcontractors for, any officer of or member of the board of directors—compensated or not—with any publicly or privately held company that does business with the Department of Defense." I would enforce this restriction on all GS-12 or higher civilian employees (basically SES).
Yeah. I definitely wasn't saying that I think that's *great*, merely *better*. I'd far rather they just, y'know, *retire*, and be loyal to the country.
All good points. If there's a serious loyalty issue at the GOFO level and the pathway to it... fuck. I don't even know what to do about *that*.
And fully agreed, it should *not* be as difficult as it has been made out to be to design functional naval vessels. I know that at least *some* of the people involved in the designs were interested in having a functional product at the end. I also know that in many ways their objections to certain design choices were overruled at higher levels. :-/
I know some of the people involved as well. They are good people, good engineers, probably good program managers. But some factor or combination of factors has allowed every naval program of the past 30 years to turn into "The Pentagon Wars."
Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy: "In any bureaucratic organization, there will be two kinds of people: those who work to further the actual goals of the organization and those who work for the organization itself. The Iron Law states that the second group will always gain control, and will always write the rules under which the organization functions."
“In every bureaucracy, the people devoted to the benefit of the bureaucracy itself always get in control.”
Are there good people in the DOD, DOW, MIC? Of course: many people, possibly even most. But the same thing goes for most large organizations: politics, academia, law, medicine, judiciary, ... However, as Jerry noted, "In every bureaucracy, the people devoted to the benefit of the bureaucracy itself always get in control.”
What is the best, most successful, effective, efficient, mission-oriented large organization in America today? I'd argue that it is SpaceX. Is there any confusion in SpaceX about the mission, the goals, the incentives, and the disincentives? Not a chance. The objectives, methods, expectations, and goals are crystal clear, with immediate feedback for anyone who strays from or harms the mission.
If it takes more than one sheet of paper to describe our mission (DOD, DOW, Navy, USAF, Army, Marines, etc.), then we do not understand what the mission is. Details can come later on other pages.
Montgomery said one of the dumbest things I ever heard anyone in Khaki’s say when he was was PCO of McCampbell in the yards (I was a side walking beach creature training the sonar gang): “lve mandated no one to be off their feet when in mixed company, you can’t get pregnant when both your feet are on the deck”.
I am reminded of this quotation from A Man for All Seasons: "For Wales? Why Richard, it profit a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world ... but for Wales!"
At the end of our Sunday Midrats, I saw the smile on Captain Brett Sadler’s face!
He congratulated you, CDR, for this little tight knit group of ours!
CDR Salamander, we had about thirteen (13) in our Live Chat. Mark, please correct if I’m wrong.
CDR Salamander, I started my studies of “China” about 1966… when my Grandma returned from a World Tour. She broke her arm on the steps of the Taj Mahal, India. She didn’t tell anyone..
Imagine my surprise! A Grandma with a broken arm.. bringing me all these beautiful gifts from … around the world… the Asia-Pacific World!
My parents permitted me to collect old National Geographic Magazines from a little shop on First Avenue, between 86th and 87th Street NYC 10028.
My parents permitted me to join the Junior Explorers Club in Manhattan.
My uncle Elliott Goodwin, served on a Navy Ship, Pacific, WWII, while my father was Army Air Corps, preparing for D-Day. I was “Groomed” from a very young age, to learn more…which I did, about “China”!
You’ve posted many good articles in this read. Thank you!
“It takes one… to know one…” 1966-2023 is a long time, about fifty-seven (57) years assimilating into the CCP “Culture”.
Better for the Naval Officer, me…to “Cut all ties to China”, which I did about 2023 and reported to the SKIFF, Fort Meade, Maryland.
Please understand, and I think you do, CDR Salamander. Captain Brent Sadler has his hands full pushing for Navy Monies. His completion is the Pentagon’s United States Army’s need to replenish the Weapons Stockpile.
CDR Salamander, I bow to you and your very deep ties with your friends and colleagues. Your post today reflects your historical commitment.
The waters I swim in, a phrase, are more in tune with my native Chinese and Russian “Instincts”. It’s very true! I would like to return to US Navy Active Duty to assist in the Arctic Sea Lane “Adventure”.
I’ll keep studying “Law”, stay healthy, and provide any recommendations I can to assist your efforts!
Captain Brent Sandler may have know Mustang Lt. Joe Pratt, USMC because both worked for same Arizona Senator, Prisoner of War…. Hanoi Hilton. I saw the smile on Captain Brett Sadler’s face at the end of our Sunday MidRats!
I’m “Trained” to observe… and remember, the “Important things”!
The Russians always had their ideology/blackmail blinkers on, then discovered to their surprise when John Walker, Edward Lee Howard, Aldrich Ames, and Robert Hanssen knocked on their door unbidden that Americans will do ANYTHING for money and there was no sense being cheap. Fat Leonard and China a little later to the game, but quick studies. When you sit there shaking your head thinking that Ronald Reagan would punch a hole in the wall at the number of "conservatives" in government and media spouting Russian and Chinese positions, just keep in mind a monthly retainer. Retired flags cashing in...well...we'll be shocked like Claude Rains in Casablanca. They're the poster children for entitlement, and they like to eat with the big spoon. And it just flows down. Hence the joke: It can't have been a top secret operation, a Navy SEAL didn't write a book about it...
I liked the reference to John Cromwell - a true hero. I have read that the real reason he chose to go down with the ship was that he knew that we had cracked the Japanese Naval Code, but of course they couldn't say that in his MOH citation.
Many thanks for sharing Captain Cromwell's story; as an Army guy, it wasn't one with which I was familiar.
The contrast between his heroic sense of duty and the mixture of greed, self-importance, and naivete that seems to be the calling card of our retired GOFO crop is disheartening. One can only hope that SECWAR is precisely the right guy to cut out this rot within our senior ranks.
Lenin was a genus, and a charismatic leader. But, you know what he could not do? Outperform a free market. Selling rope is how we whooped 'em. Our strength is in our markets; trade and commerce is how you beat the commies.
To summarize: China used against USA exactly the same subversion and infiltration methods, that USA used to weaken the Socialist block during and immediately after Cold War. USA didn't like it, but outside of USA nobody really cares.
When I saw this post by Ms. Winters, wondered if you would pick up on it. Had some personal experience with then U.S. Ambassador to China Prueher in 2000 that raised my spider sense on his...approach to China (Duh...). Guessing he remains a "panda hugger" , which is a nice way of saying an odd sense of "advocacy" cloaked in "reasonable language". "Service to the nation" certainly appears to have taken a back seat to "service to self" for this list of people. At a minimum, being on this list creates a lot of obvious questions that if answered a particular way, might explain a lot of dysfunctional decisions in our DOW(D) over the last couple of decades. Just might. Just possibly. Perhaps. IMO, YMMV.
We need a new slogan...Fear of being found out...FOBFO. A derivative of FAFO. Think there were some guilty minds in the room when Hegseth addressed all of the flags? CI types could have a field day with a Prisoner's Dilemma approach to rolling this up...unless they're not already on the payroll and part of the "game".
SECSTATE George Schultz had a test for new ambassadors. He would call them into his office and ask them to point to their country on a large globe. They invariably pointed to where they were going. He corrected them by pointing to the US.
Long March those retired flags to GITMO . . .
How about a long walk off a short gangplank instead, or a one-way trip up the yardarm.
We need them to name names . . . then the gangplank on YouTube! "enhanced interrogation techniques".
MKGA: Make Keelhauling Great Again!
can't leave them up there forever; the birds will get scared
"Tragic accidents"
Nah, John, it has to be a duck walk to Gitmo.
https://healthcoachjp.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Duck-Walk-Exercise.webp
Is that like a frog march?
Gad! Yes, that is precisely what I meant to say, but I mis-metaphored badly. Good catch.
Glad to be of service!
Groucho Marx and competitive shooters duckwalk
Or tie them to a Long March missile and watch it blow up.
Cat O' Nine Tails.....
Why should the retired Flags care? Most of them have been focused for decades on how to make mega$$ in their post-retirement years. Blatant swinging doors between the retired Flags and the Defense Industry is a disgrace to the entire military. Even the most flagrant abuses by Flags who were guilty of taking bribes from and assisting Fat Leonard received little more than a slap on the wrist. One Admiral, ONE (Rear Admiral Robert Gilbeau), spent time behind bars. Others, like Retired Admiral Mark Montgomery, are still treated as honorable retired Navy Officers, instead of the criminal, dishonorable grifters that they showed themselves to be. There is no public evidence that Montgomery has had his security clearance revoked or suspended. Big Navy and the GOFO Protective Society protect their own, honor and integrity be damned. Yeah, why should Americans be so cynical?
Incentives and Disincentives.
On the flip side, at least if they go to the defense contractors they aren't selling out to the actual enemy. Just... more of a mostly aligned adversarial ally.
Nope. Sorry. There is almost certainly corruption involved in the process. America deserves better, and our military must be held to a higher standard. We need to implement the CDR Salamander bill:
"SALAMANDER BILL
For a period of no less than five years from their effective date of retirement, General Officers and Flag Officers shall not be employed by, nor act as independent contractors or subcontractors for, any officer of or member of the board of directors—compensated or not—with any publicly or privately held company that does business with the Department of Defense." I would enforce this restriction on all GS-12 or higher civilian employees (basically SES).
So what you suggest? Loyality purges? They require at very least the government to whom military could be loyal.
Do you have a serious question?
Loyalty to country is not the same as to government.
We swear an Oath to the Constitution, NOT our elected Government.
Or the president, jefe, king, emperor, or other personality.
Back in the 1990s I reminded the JOs in a submarine wardroom of this fact.
Yeah. I definitely wasn't saying that I think that's *great*, merely *better*. I'd far rather they just, y'know, *retire*, and be loyal to the country.
Why wouldn't someone who sells us out to one sell us out to another?
My guess is they are selling us out to "all of the above". And probably some others we don't know about.
Does no one else find it suspicious that we have systematically been unable to design functional warships for the last 30 years?
Nobody claims to want 57mm optically sighted guns. But somehow, we get 57mm optically sighted guns. That shit ain't a coincidence.
All good points. If there's a serious loyalty issue at the GOFO level and the pathway to it... fuck. I don't even know what to do about *that*.
And fully agreed, it should *not* be as difficult as it has been made out to be to design functional naval vessels. I know that at least *some* of the people involved in the designs were interested in having a functional product at the end. I also know that in many ways their objections to certain design choices were overruled at higher levels. :-/
I know some of the people involved as well. They are good people, good engineers, probably good program managers. But some factor or combination of factors has allowed every naval program of the past 30 years to turn into "The Pentagon Wars."
Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy: "In any bureaucratic organization, there will be two kinds of people: those who work to further the actual goals of the organization and those who work for the organization itself. The Iron Law states that the second group will always gain control, and will always write the rules under which the organization functions."
“In every bureaucracy, the people devoted to the benefit of the bureaucracy itself always get in control.”
Are there good people in the DOD, DOW, MIC? Of course: many people, possibly even most. But the same thing goes for most large organizations: politics, academia, law, medicine, judiciary, ... However, as Jerry noted, "In every bureaucracy, the people devoted to the benefit of the bureaucracy itself always get in control.”
What is the best, most successful, effective, efficient, mission-oriented large organization in America today? I'd argue that it is SpaceX. Is there any confusion in SpaceX about the mission, the goals, the incentives, and the disincentives? Not a chance. The objectives, methods, expectations, and goals are crystal clear, with immediate feedback for anyone who strays from or harms the mission.
If it takes more than one sheet of paper to describe our mission (DOD, DOW, Navy, USAF, Army, Marines, etc.), then we do not understand what the mission is. Details can come later on other pages.
Yeah. Painfully aware of Pournelle's Iron Law and its universal applicability.
And Conquest's Second Law: "Any organization not explicitly right-wing sooner or later becomes left-wing."
Because they are Americans? Hello?
Montgomery said one of the dumbest things I ever heard anyone in Khaki’s say when he was was PCO of McCampbell in the yards (I was a side walking beach creature training the sonar gang): “lve mandated no one to be off their feet when in mixed company, you can’t get pregnant when both your feet are on the deck”.
ISYN
Dude's just not creative enough. I'm pretty sure your average sailor can figure no less than half a dozen work arounds.
and that's just the short ones
The Victorians had a term for that: "Knee Tremblers," Often performed with a back against a wall, and sour rot gut gin on both breaths.
I am reminded of this quotation from A Man for All Seasons: "For Wales? Why Richard, it profit a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world ... but for Wales!"
Not all *that* amazing. It *should* be, but... is just far too normal to amaze, any longer.
Good Morning CDR Salamander and shipmates!
Don’t chastise yourself too much, CDR Salamander.
At the end of our Sunday Midrats, I saw the smile on Captain Brett Sadler’s face!
He congratulated you, CDR, for this little tight knit group of ours!
CDR Salamander, we had about thirteen (13) in our Live Chat. Mark, please correct if I’m wrong.
CDR Salamander, I started my studies of “China” about 1966… when my Grandma returned from a World Tour. She broke her arm on the steps of the Taj Mahal, India. She didn’t tell anyone..
Imagine my surprise! A Grandma with a broken arm.. bringing me all these beautiful gifts from … around the world… the Asia-Pacific World!
My parents permitted me to collect old National Geographic Magazines from a little shop on First Avenue, between 86th and 87th Street NYC 10028.
My parents permitted me to join the Junior Explorers Club in Manhattan.
My uncle Elliott Goodwin, served on a Navy Ship, Pacific, WWII, while my father was Army Air Corps, preparing for D-Day. I was “Groomed” from a very young age, to learn more…which I did, about “China”!
You’ve posted many good articles in this read. Thank you!
“It takes one… to know one…” 1966-2023 is a long time, about fifty-seven (57) years assimilating into the CCP “Culture”.
Better for the Naval Officer, me…to “Cut all ties to China”, which I did about 2023 and reported to the SKIFF, Fort Meade, Maryland.
Please understand, and I think you do, CDR Salamander. Captain Brent Sadler has his hands full pushing for Navy Monies. His completion is the Pentagon’s United States Army’s need to replenish the Weapons Stockpile.
CDR Salamander, I bow to you and your very deep ties with your friends and colleagues. Your post today reflects your historical commitment.
The waters I swim in, a phrase, are more in tune with my native Chinese and Russian “Instincts”. It’s very true! I would like to return to US Navy Active Duty to assist in the Arctic Sea Lane “Adventure”.
I’ll keep studying “Law”, stay healthy, and provide any recommendations I can to assist your efforts!
Captain Brent Sandler may have know Mustang Lt. Joe Pratt, USMC because both worked for same Arizona Senator, Prisoner of War…. Hanoi Hilton. I saw the smile on Captain Brett Sadler’s face at the end of our Sunday MidRats!
I’m “Trained” to observe… and remember, the “Important things”!
Good luck! God bless your efforts here!
Very respectfully, Nurse Jane.
The Russians always had their ideology/blackmail blinkers on, then discovered to their surprise when John Walker, Edward Lee Howard, Aldrich Ames, and Robert Hanssen knocked on their door unbidden that Americans will do ANYTHING for money and there was no sense being cheap. Fat Leonard and China a little later to the game, but quick studies. When you sit there shaking your head thinking that Ronald Reagan would punch a hole in the wall at the number of "conservatives" in government and media spouting Russian and Chinese positions, just keep in mind a monthly retainer. Retired flags cashing in...well...we'll be shocked like Claude Rains in Casablanca. They're the poster children for entitlement, and they like to eat with the big spoon. And it just flows down. Hence the joke: It can't have been a top secret operation, a Navy SEAL didn't write a book about it...
I thought Ames was a true believer, but I could be misrembering
It's a sad time when we have to ask just who the retired flag officers (actively serving?) are actually working for?
But it's necessary and needs to be coupled with significant penalties tied to US code enforcement.
I liked the reference to John Cromwell - a true hero. I have read that the real reason he chose to go down with the ship was that he knew that we had cracked the Japanese Naval Code, but of course they couldn't say that in his MOH citation.
SUBSCOL @ SUBASE NLON named a building after him.
I've read that as well. A stone cold hero, possibly saved how many lives by taking that knowledge to the grave?
All of our military commissaries sell Smithfield pork products. Why???
Largest processor in the US.
Why not Hormel?
Hormel by Smithfield. They own some of the trademarks iirc.
...or Tyson, they own Jimmy Dean
Many thanks for sharing Captain Cromwell's story; as an Army guy, it wasn't one with which I was familiar.
The contrast between his heroic sense of duty and the mixture of greed, self-importance, and naivete that seems to be the calling card of our retired GOFO crop is disheartening. One can only hope that SECWAR is precisely the right guy to cut out this rot within our senior ranks.
Lenin once said, that capitalist would sell you rope so you could hang capitalist on it. And Lenin was a pretty smart guy...
(okay, there are actually no proofs that Lenin said that - seems that this phrase was attributed to him post factum - but the logic is still clear)
Lenin was a genus, and a charismatic leader. But, you know what he could not do? Outperform a free market. Selling rope is how we whooped 'em. Our strength is in our markets; trade and commerce is how you beat the commies.
Damn, Tom. I thought you were on one the commies!
/s
To summarize: China used against USA exactly the same subversion and infiltration methods, that USA used to weaken the Socialist block during and immediately after Cold War. USA didn't like it, but outside of USA nobody really cares.
Well, fortunately the UK no longer has a navy worthy of being spied upon.
My Dad would be heartbroken and his father and father-in-law utterly devastated
Elite Capture is a major feature of their strategic planning. It’s not just GO/FO. We are infested.
Fang Fang agrees
As of the middle of May, we are still trying to get Australia to extradite Duggan.
https://region.com.au/family-will-continue-fight-to-keep-ex-pilot-away-from-trump-administration/966773/
A sad indictment of our GOFO. Yet, is anyone here really surprised?
Is anyone hear surprised that we are not surprised?