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Pitch's avatar

OK retired Navy Helo guy here. Big Navy has made poor decisions the past number of decades. The joke among rotary wing is that the fighter mafia wants to get rid of everything that doesn't have a pointy nose and fought USN rotary wing from having anything more than torpedo's and a light machine gun for several decades. Gone are the A-6, A-7, S-3. Useful albeit not attractive and yea at this point obsolete but roll back to the early mid 90s and there was a proposed A-7F and A-6F and we should have had a follow on S-3 as we gave up mid zone ASW coverage when we gave it up among other capabilities - my point is, everything is about F-14/F-18/F-35 and uncool looking aircraft need not be supported. Back to the rotary wing side.. We had a dedicated CSAR squadron (HC-7 Sea Devils) in Vietnam and a actual Navy Helicopter attack squadron in HAL-3 (Seawolves). After Vietnam the Navy got rid of both. HAL-3 literally commissioned and de-commissioned as a unit in Vietnam. They formed HAL-4 and HAL-5 back in the states as reserve squadrons in the 70s which ran through the mid 80s and were converted to HCS-4 and HCS-5.. Notice.. the A was gone. Those 2 squadrons were highly professional and pretty active in special warfare support and CSAR should the need arrive through the Iraq conflict. I have known several over the years. Then I believe during late Bush or early Obama they were disbanded and HS-85 which was a H-3 unit became HSC-85 a HSC unit with the MH-60S. Now to be fair they finally have come around to arming helicopters again. The mighty SH-60B which I flew after it was found to be very useful in Gulf War 1 in finding things but lacking any ability to shoot them, they finally came around and had a drug deal to give it the Penguin missile.. begrudgingly. It was actually the Surface Navy that promoted this not the Air side. Then came Hellfire but big navy didn't want a forward firing gun, got rid of the Penguin once the shelf life expired and wouldn't fund helicopter Maverick. Finally HSC is getting forward firing guns of some consequence and hellfire and rocket pods but it has taken 3+ decades of fighting to get those things. The HSL / HSM community does NOT do any kind of CSAR and it is literally prohibited. Those are your CG/DDG based aircraft with a few on the CVN's these days as well. HSC is not embedded into the special warfare world the way that HCS-4 and 5 were. The USMC calls CSAR "TRAP" tactical recovery of aircraft and personnel. I don't know a great deal about it other than then they practice it but it's CSAR for joint and practical purposes. They send in a whole package of fixed wing, AH-1, and 53 helicopters and probably V22 these days. As for the China problem, the Navy is lacking pretty significantly in truly well practiced and trained units for this. It's a mission but not trained and practiced to the level of the USAF units I am certain. I do know that they do practice CSAR at Fallon during workups but never participated myself being a HSL guy and we didn't participate in that part of workups and weren't part of the airwing in those days and it wasn't a mission for us and they take a dim view of littering Lake Tahoe with sonobuoys. So short version is, in some ways the Navy is better equipped and doing a slightly better job but gave up it's specialty units and highly trained crews along the way. HCS this was their primary mission along with the special forces / SEAL support. HSC does everything but mostly is utility and VERTREP when there isn't a civilian VERTREP det around and is passable at the other stuff but I seriously doubt they are doing the level of integrated training that the Jolly Green guys are doing. I seriously doubt they work together on any meaningful basis or regular cycle. I seriously doubt the Navy's VR usage V-22's do anything at all in terms of tactical employment (C-2 greyhound replacement). Note there has been no mention of USAF V22's in this event that I have noticed. Sorry for the length but this is one of those things that has bugged me for 3+ decades.

The Drill SGT's avatar

OT: I was disappointed to read

"BREAKING: Former CENTCOM commander Ret. Gen. Frank McKenzie just said it PERFECTLY

“It takes a year to build an aircraft — and it takes 200 YEARS to build a military tradition where you don't leave anybody behind!”

without giving Adm AB Cunningham credit he was due, on the topic of the evacuation of Crete:

Cunningham was determined, though, that the "navy must not let the army down", and when army generals feared he would lose too many ships, Cunningham said,

"It takes the Navy three years to build a ship. It will take three hundred years to build a new tradition. The evacuation will continue."

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