How many men would sign up for the Navy / Coast Guard if they know they are going to be sent to the Artic North? I've never been in the Service, but it seems like the more important question.
Oh, there's plenty Up North to attract people. Maybe not all people. But a certain type. Every pot has a lid.
And just as there are "Foreign Area Specialists" in the military, it would help to create a "Polar Specialist" career path... Specialty training in everything to do w Polar regions (eg, magnetism & nav, ship/drone-handling, Polar geography/geology/mapping, weather & cold-weather logistics, ice, oceanography, and a very long list of things that are just plain different in Arctic & Antarctic regions).
Lots. I did two USCG deployments to the Antarctic and one to the Arctic, and I specifically asked for an icebreaker assignment to get them. Like all youngsters, I wanted to go someplace new and see things not many people had seen.
To this day my Alaska was my Father’s favorite/best duty. Though many of his friends has past it those men he served with there are the ones he kept close friendships.
Regardless of the platforms developed to support Arctic naval ops, their capabilities won't be fully realized without an Arctic-capable icebreaker fleet.
The US has only 2 polar icebreakers with a third projected to be delivered around the end of the decade (don't hold your breath). The PRC has three polar icebreakers with a fourth currently building.
Russia has an icebreaker fleet of approximately 57 ships.
The proverbial chickens, that are our lack of foresight and industrial capabilities, are coming home to roost.
If only three of them were capable of polar ops, that would be more than the US (and, like the PRC, they're building a buttload more). Particularly interesting (disturbing?) is the article's observation regarding cooperation between Russia, PRC, and India in the Arctic regions.
Russian ship building isn't as efficient as that of the US. The Ukrainians have been helping the Russians build their submersible fleet, but actual ships coming on line is something that is more aspirational than anything else.
At the end of the day, the Russian build rate may not matter if their Arctic ops alliance with China and India bears fruit. As previously mentioned, China is building its fourth polar-capable icebreaker, and its shipbuilding industry far outpaces that of the US (of course, that's a low bar to clear).
Even if China's ships have issues, at a certain point "quantity has a quality of its own" (don't recall who said that. . .Stalin? A Soviet-era flag officer?). Meanwhile, the soonest our next polar-capable icebreaker will deliver is at the end of the decade--maybe.
Yesterday, Sal Mercagliano's blog post was all about the increase in Chinese shipping traveling across the Arctic (are-tik). We need ice breakers. and more such stuff.
a day before, was checking out a flag of my father.......cobalt blue background, polar bear silhouette, from his days working to set up DEW line. we need more, faster. more!
My Dad was stationed in Alaska on the DEW line. Many decades later I had the unfortunate opportunity to work on final decommissioning, decontamination, removal & restoration across many of the sites.
It was a family full circle affair. Made me sad to think about the amazing organization that Western Electric was to design build & commission it in what was short order. From Contruction kick off to full commissioning in leas than 2 years. Given the short construction season & the vastness of the network truly amazing.
There is little the DOD can do today with that speed. Sadly, when they last AT&T & it’s operating companies it lost the understanding of speed of manufacturing, scale & speed of deployment.
Yet, that industry still deploys not only domestically but internationally at speed and scale yet we no longer look to them for those skills.
Think about how fast new technology for cellular to internet gets uograded and rolled out across 100’s of thousands to millions of sites within a deployment window that typically see full upgrades in a 12-24 month window.
Upon becoming a catapult officer on CVN-74 in 1997 I heard many horror stories of the commissioning CO (what a mess that guy ended up being). One such story was when he ordered the crew to de-ice the flight deck to clear it for flight ops. They tried chipping and huffer exhaust and anything else they could think of the get the ice off the flight deck. Overall HUGE level of effort that did nothing to clear the deck. My previous deployment/sea time had been on the west coast so ice on the flight deck never occurred to me. What I did think about as I heard this story was how were we to fight the Soviets in the North Atlantic if we had no way to de-ice the deck???
I wonder how much weight it could take before it would tip over? Hopefully the Ruskies would start their war about June 1st with a plan for victory by Labor Day or bust.
OK, not sure how de-icing a flight deck got mixed in with added weight and Rep Johnson's idiot remark about Guam capsizing. Sad that he survived re-election. I am pretty sure the ship had plenty of freeboard to handle an inch of ice and even several feet of snow on top. Just not gonna move any aircraft on it for the duration.
I was there for that. I remember K-man was furious the Air Boss and Cheng had not aligned steam to the cats to help heat up the deck. We had many crew members top side with metal implements trying to break up the ice. In another occasion the base and roads were shut down due to adverse weather and local radio and tv stations stated that only mission essential personnel were to report and also the crew of JCS. The reason that we had to report was to conduct a safety stand-down.
The crazy stories of him are legend. Such a tragedy. I give high praise to every plank owner that endured that. We ended up getting the double Battle E with CAPT Raulstone.
While we wait -- breathlessly -- for institutional military to figure it all out, and for Official Washington to fund the wish list, there's one leverage angle out there and it's near-term and low cost to the taxpayer... Political fast-tracking for Arctic Energy & Mineral Development.
That is, encourage near-term drilling Up North (usual locales), and encourage more exploration, development and mining elsewhere in Alaska. [OBTW... Ottawa, looking at you, too!] The oil/gas aspect is a plan that's long been on the shelf, ready to roll when regulatory risk declines.
As for mineral development... Many opportunities; consider e.g., Donlin Creek in SW Alaska, a deposit that has been explored & "feasability'ed" for about 25 yrs now, w >35 million ounces of gold equivalent; and yes, there's a "plan" but it's glacially slow. So... Get it rolling... Whatever federal govt does in terms of sweetening the deal to accelerate development, the gold pays for itself. Meanwhile, it involves improvements to harbors, road grid, comms, energy system, workforce development... aka logistics.
Or how about a wild one here... Encourage Big Copper (several names) to build a metal refinery complex (gotta stop using the word "smelter;" sounds sooo 19th century) in the Aleutians; maybe adjacent to Adak!... Cuz Adak is rignt off a Great Circle shipping route from N/S America to Asia, where hundreds of ore carriers pass per year. Deep water harbor. Airfield. The minerals come to the Alaska refinery -- heck, they're going to Japan-Korea-China already. And Alaska has plenty of nat-gas (in LNG form) to power it all. And voila, there's the "Made in America" angle as well. Rotate workforce in-out, just like offshore oil industry does. Offer tax breaks similar to "no tax in a war zone" like in Middle East. Again, the govt investment is repaid by... copper & other mineral security, plus everything else that comes w Big Capex.
Or... We could just continue doing what we've been doing... Cuz that has worked out so well.
This is the way. Let commercial interests drive development and opening of the North. It will more than force the DOD & Congress to follow suit. More importantly drive tax and royalties to fund a proper return to the Arctic.
You are an honorable person because you speak your “Truth”.
In Maryland, “Gardner Exteriors”, Lothian MD near JUG Bay, close to the Chesapeake Bay, about 20 miles South of Joint Base Andrews, are NOT honorable people!
According to Stephen Gardner, his brother graduated USNA about 1980’s, refused to go on an American Submarine!
Stephen Gardner met with me yesterday, Tuesday 5 August, from 10:08 - 11:10 AM.
Stephen promised a Proposal.
Today the wife of one of these Gardner Brothers told me all their “Contracts” are committed and they are taking on “No New Business”.
Onto our Arctic Study!
Naval Officers are “Honorable” until they are not!
No business to “Gardner Exteriors” in Maryland please. Thank you!
CDR Salamander, in the Arctic Polar Regions… I must learn Russian to understand “Drop Everything! Return to Ship Immediately!” So correct! The Arctic Sea Lane is the Future!
All true. We would do well to partner more closely with our northern cousins--Canada has an abiding interest in the Arctic, and a good amount of experience in operating therein.
Sorry but RANd needs to be completely sent to the Dustbin of History. They haven’t been right about anything in decades nor provided true deep insight or technology futurecasting.
The moment RAND no longer was a place for Mathematicians & Engineers it lost it’s usefulness & purpose. Ever since it’s nothing but a welfare queen suckling at the tit of government subsidies & has totally abandoned it’s original mission to further science for the security of America.
Nothing RAND has produced in this century has been of value other than highlighting to do the exact opposite tack to take compared to their stated course.
Truly a collection that f mental midgets living off past ghosts.
Once asked a RAND leader who were the future Nobel recipients on staff or who would be competitive. Arrow, Schelling, Shapley, Samuelson all had to start somewhere. Not good.
Dipping sonar and torpedoes are going to be necessary for our Arctic frigate.
How many men would sign up for the Navy / Coast Guard if they know they are going to be sent to the Artic North? I've never been in the Service, but it seems like the more important question.
Oh, there's plenty Up North to attract people. Maybe not all people. But a certain type. Every pot has a lid.
And just as there are "Foreign Area Specialists" in the military, it would help to create a "Polar Specialist" career path... Specialty training in everything to do w Polar regions (eg, magnetism & nav, ship/drone-handling, Polar geography/geology/mapping, weather & cold-weather logistics, ice, oceanography, and a very long list of things that are just plain different in Arctic & Antarctic regions).
I’d volunteer for that. Be a great finish to my career.
If you like fishing a stint in Kodiak has an up side.
I have sailed just outside the artic ocean and it was frigid! You could feel the cold deep down below decks.
Lots. I did two USCG deployments to the Antarctic and one to the Arctic, and I specifically asked for an icebreaker assignment to get them. Like all youngsters, I wanted to go someplace new and see things not many people had seen.
To this day my Alaska was my Father’s favorite/best duty. Though many of his friends has past it those men he served with there are the ones he kept close friendships.
Regardless of the platforms developed to support Arctic naval ops, their capabilities won't be fully realized without an Arctic-capable icebreaker fleet.
The US has only 2 polar icebreakers with a third projected to be delivered around the end of the decade (don't hold your breath). The PRC has three polar icebreakers with a fourth currently building.
Russia has an icebreaker fleet of approximately 57 ships.
The proverbial chickens, that are our lack of foresight and industrial capabilities, are coming home to roost.
Wait, are you telling me drones can’t do icebreaking?
They probably could but I wouldn't count on either military or commercial shipbuilders to produce an effective product in a reasonable amount of time
Russia might have 57 icebreakers, but how many of them are actually capable of breaking ice?
If only three of them were capable of polar ops, that would be more than the US (and, like the PRC, they're building a buttload more). Particularly interesting (disturbing?) is the article's observation regarding cooperation between Russia, PRC, and India in the Arctic regions.
Russia's icebreaker fleet set to grow - World Nuclear News https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/articles/russias-icebreaker-fleet-set-to-grow#:~:text=There%20are%20currently%20a%20series%20of%20Project,turbine%20and%20other%20components%20onto%20the%20Chukotka.
Russian ship building isn't as efficient as that of the US. The Ukrainians have been helping the Russians build their submersible fleet, but actual ships coming on line is something that is more aspirational than anything else.
At the end of the day, the Russian build rate may not matter if their Arctic ops alliance with China and India bears fruit. As previously mentioned, China is building its fourth polar-capable icebreaker, and its shipbuilding industry far outpaces that of the US (of course, that's a low bar to clear).
Even if China's ships have issues, at a certain point "quantity has a quality of its own" (don't recall who said that. . .Stalin? A Soviet-era flag officer?). Meanwhile, the soonest our next polar-capable icebreaker will deliver is at the end of the decade--maybe.
Not many. Russian maintenance is not as good as that of the US, and we both know how good US ship maintenance is.
Yesterday, Sal Mercagliano's blog post was all about the increase in Chinese shipping traveling across the Arctic (are-tik). We need ice breakers. and more such stuff.
a day before, was checking out a flag of my father.......cobalt blue background, polar bear silhouette, from his days working to set up DEW line. we need more, faster. more!
My Dad was stationed in Alaska on the DEW line. Many decades later I had the unfortunate opportunity to work on final decommissioning, decontamination, removal & restoration across many of the sites.
It was a family full circle affair. Made me sad to think about the amazing organization that Western Electric was to design build & commission it in what was short order. From Contruction kick off to full commissioning in leas than 2 years. Given the short construction season & the vastness of the network truly amazing.
There is little the DOD can do today with that speed. Sadly, when they last AT&T & it’s operating companies it lost the understanding of speed of manufacturing, scale & speed of deployment.
Yet, that industry still deploys not only domestically but internationally at speed and scale yet we no longer look to them for those skills.
Think about how fast new technology for cellular to internet gets uograded and rolled out across 100’s of thousands to millions of sites within a deployment window that typically see full upgrades in a 12-24 month window.
Upon becoming a catapult officer on CVN-74 in 1997 I heard many horror stories of the commissioning CO (what a mess that guy ended up being). One such story was when he ordered the crew to de-ice the flight deck to clear it for flight ops. They tried chipping and huffer exhaust and anything else they could think of the get the ice off the flight deck. Overall HUGE level of effort that did nothing to clear the deck. My previous deployment/sea time had been on the west coast so ice on the flight deck never occurred to me. What I did think about as I heard this story was how were we to fight the Soviets in the North Atlantic if we had no way to de-ice the deck???
I wonder how much weight it could take before it would tip over? Hopefully the Ruskies would start their war about June 1st with a plan for victory by Labor Day or bust.
Not trying to take anything away from Rob, Andy. NFO's are the best. But maybe you should be asking the Honorable Henry Calvin Johnson Jr. (D-GA). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5dkqUy7mUk&ab_channel=CNN
Lol!
OK, not sure how de-icing a flight deck got mixed in with added weight and Rep Johnson's idiot remark about Guam capsizing. Sad that he survived re-election. I am pretty sure the ship had plenty of freeboard to handle an inch of ice and even several feet of snow on top. Just not gonna move any aircraft on it for the duration.
I was there for that. I remember K-man was furious the Air Boss and Cheng had not aligned steam to the cats to help heat up the deck. We had many crew members top side with metal implements trying to break up the ice. In another occasion the base and roads were shut down due to adverse weather and local radio and tv stations stated that only mission essential personnel were to report and also the crew of JCS. The reason that we had to report was to conduct a safety stand-down.
The crazy stories of him are legend. Such a tragedy. I give high praise to every plank owner that endured that. We ended up getting the double Battle E with CAPT Raulstone.
While we wait -- breathlessly -- for institutional military to figure it all out, and for Official Washington to fund the wish list, there's one leverage angle out there and it's near-term and low cost to the taxpayer... Political fast-tracking for Arctic Energy & Mineral Development.
That is, encourage near-term drilling Up North (usual locales), and encourage more exploration, development and mining elsewhere in Alaska. [OBTW... Ottawa, looking at you, too!] The oil/gas aspect is a plan that's long been on the shelf, ready to roll when regulatory risk declines.
As for mineral development... Many opportunities; consider e.g., Donlin Creek in SW Alaska, a deposit that has been explored & "feasability'ed" for about 25 yrs now, w >35 million ounces of gold equivalent; and yes, there's a "plan" but it's glacially slow. So... Get it rolling... Whatever federal govt does in terms of sweetening the deal to accelerate development, the gold pays for itself. Meanwhile, it involves improvements to harbors, road grid, comms, energy system, workforce development... aka logistics.
Or how about a wild one here... Encourage Big Copper (several names) to build a metal refinery complex (gotta stop using the word "smelter;" sounds sooo 19th century) in the Aleutians; maybe adjacent to Adak!... Cuz Adak is rignt off a Great Circle shipping route from N/S America to Asia, where hundreds of ore carriers pass per year. Deep water harbor. Airfield. The minerals come to the Alaska refinery -- heck, they're going to Japan-Korea-China already. And Alaska has plenty of nat-gas (in LNG form) to power it all. And voila, there's the "Made in America" angle as well. Rotate workforce in-out, just like offshore oil industry does. Offer tax breaks similar to "no tax in a war zone" like in Middle East. Again, the govt investment is repaid by... copper & other mineral security, plus everything else that comes w Big Capex.
Or... We could just continue doing what we've been doing... Cuz that has worked out so well.
This is the way. Let commercial interests drive development and opening of the North. It will more than force the DOD & Congress to follow suit. More importantly drive tax and royalties to fund a proper return to the Arctic.
CDR Salamander, thank you!
You are an honorable person because you speak your “Truth”.
In Maryland, “Gardner Exteriors”, Lothian MD near JUG Bay, close to the Chesapeake Bay, about 20 miles South of Joint Base Andrews, are NOT honorable people!
According to Stephen Gardner, his brother graduated USNA about 1980’s, refused to go on an American Submarine!
Stephen Gardner met with me yesterday, Tuesday 5 August, from 10:08 - 11:10 AM.
Stephen promised a Proposal.
Today the wife of one of these Gardner Brothers told me all their “Contracts” are committed and they are taking on “No New Business”.
Onto our Arctic Study!
Naval Officers are “Honorable” until they are not!
No business to “Gardner Exteriors” in Maryland please. Thank you!
CDR Salamander, in the Arctic Polar Regions… I must learn Russian to understand “Drop Everything! Return to Ship Immediately!” So correct! The Arctic Sea Lane is the Future!
Kakistocracy can't see beyond either Chamber.
“That means more US Coast Guard—and better armed US Coast Guard”. Does that mean Icy McIcebreaker (a/k/a Storis) isn’t going to be enough?
I just hope they use Storis often and with an eye for determining her good parts from bad so they get the Medium icebreaker design correct, sooner.
How long will it take to develop a deep bench for USN leadership? Right now I think it may be empty…
All true. We would do well to partner more closely with our northern cousins--Canada has an abiding interest in the Arctic, and a good amount of experience in operating therein.
"Look at how well armed the WWII era Wind Class icebreakers were for their time"
absent torp tubes, the ship weapons list looks armed like a slow full up USS Gearing class DD
Mmm, armed icebreakers. Perfect setup for a book, if not reality…
Ice breakers would help a lot of them, and Strategic maps that are polar projection.
“A weakness of much of the RAND report is”.
Sorry but RANd needs to be completely sent to the Dustbin of History. They haven’t been right about anything in decades nor provided true deep insight or technology futurecasting.
The moment RAND no longer was a place for Mathematicians & Engineers it lost it’s usefulness & purpose. Ever since it’s nothing but a welfare queen suckling at the tit of government subsidies & has totally abandoned it’s original mission to further science for the security of America.
Nothing RAND has produced in this century has been of value other than highlighting to do the exact opposite tack to take compared to their stated course.
Truly a collection that f mental midgets living off past ghosts.
Once asked a RAND leader who were the future Nobel recipients on staff or who would be competitive. Arrow, Schelling, Shapley, Samuelson all had to start somewhere. Not good.
I think John von Neumann would be sad to see how far it has fallen.
This was a great book, btw: https://www.amazon.com/Man-Future-Visionary-Life-Neumann/dp/1324003995)