I would say those here on the Porch, know and appreciate history, geography, sociology, etc. The "we" here are opening to learning. I am unsure about the highly credentialed foreign policy "we's" in D.C.
There's two different "we" involved in my statement. One, the local we, our immediate audience. The second is the global "we." Humanity in general, and yes most specifically the four P crowd (Perfumed Princes of the Pentagon Palace.) and even worse, the never to be sufficiently damned fuckwits from Foggy Bottom. My only consolation is that the English during the empire had the same thing to say about the stupid bastards from State Street.
But could we have? The various war college and postgraduate school theses over the past decade or so have increasing been about DEI and less about warfare. This really isn't a dig against those who chose that path. I am sure many high quality officers made a conscious decision to advance their education in a direction that made them most competitive for promotion.
spot on and it was exactly what I felt the wokester was doing in troop leadership 101. What a lousy leader for those who lost their lives since our integration into that war zone tot eh loss of 13 young Americans and a loser photographed stepping on a plane ramp as the "last one out"... Biden American Failure.
LCDR (Commander) Swann is walking into your Chart Room, singing… it’s a Friday, oh, btw…
“The Navy’s Got You Now!”
“No more writhing in those columns now!”
If you know about how the Koran was annotated by the great Islamic leaders of the past…
“This is the Way it is!”
“Like it or not!”
“The Navy’s Got It Now!”
This is when you smile CDR Salamander!
Thank you for the “E-Book” heads up!
I’ll ask AACC Library for this “Accommodation” if AACC LGS - Criminal Law “Accelerated Class starting 20 October 2025,” Syllabus requires me to “Read … Books”.
CDR Salamander, I watched every single Russian Federation movie made in Russian (I read the subtitles) about their time in Afghanistan! I needed to understand the reasons why they were directed to leave after their blood was thoroughly absorbed into the sand! With this said, CDR, I had to understand a better explanation of the Taliban! Furthermore, and this is why I needed “Nerves of Steel”, I had to dive into Turkey’s reasons for harming the Kurds of Northern Iraq! Please understand, I knew the “Death Penalty” was on the Table for Turkish Warrant Officer Dursun Ir’Ibas. I stood in the 7-Eleven waiting … I learned Dursun told his Commanding Officer, “I am!” despite his being told, “Do Not”! That year may have been 2007!
Similarly in 2012, Dursun made up a story to his next Group Commender, “I couldn’t sleep either.” I needed the Photograph of the Greek Orthodox Bible, Dursun and me inside the Dover, Deleware motel.
March 2013, was his “Last” communication. Since Dursun had already been in Turkish prison, if Dursun converted to Greek Orthodoxy in 2003 as he wrote in his email, that was his “Death Sentence”! I’ll never know!
CDR Salamander, I had to get the “Dirt” on the Iraqi! So I had to keep “In the Game!”
Of course, I was disturbed after I met with Secrete Service in 2017, “Do NOT give Wisssm al-Muzir a “Security Clearance”!
CDR Salamander, I’m still in “The Game”, trusting my friends in the Russian Federation Embassy, Washington D.C. and my “Professor” Russell Lee Otway, citizen of both Australia and Russia.
Now I must buckle down and learn “Law”!
So important for our Ship’s Guidance and Safety!
I still sing… “The Navy’s Got Me Now!”
“Let’s go Sal…onto Glory Now!”
Very respectfully, Nurse Jane (the singing Executive Officer).
If Americans in 1980s knew how their "helping brave Afghan rebels" turns out at 11 september 2001... they would likely unanimously vote for sending help to USSR during Afghan war.
I liked Afghans being the good guys in movies, but I think it led us into having the wrong idea about the whole bloody affair. Rambo 3, The living Daylights come to mind.
While I enthusiastically support DJT and Hegseth’s leadership (especially for the military), I do worry that they undervalue the worth of military history. Is there anyone on active duty who appreciates the military history of Afghanistan, or Vietnam for that matter? I truly hope their zeal for combat readiness doesn’t throw out the need to understand, and learn from history!
History does not "repeat", but patterns of human behavior, and the rise and decline of nations, most certainly does. The Soviets had a land route out, leading to the now famous bridge. We had an "air bridge" but elected to surrender security for one end of that "bridge" to...untrustworthy "partners" during the withdrawal. During my embassy tour, my office was responsible for evacuation planning (which was used twice in five years). DoS and DoD violated every tenet of NEO during this cluster. Those tenant violations occurred before, during (Donohue should have been court-martialed IMO) and after (Mckenzie's testimony is shameless). To paraphrase someone else here, while it could have been worse, it should have been so much better. Saigon, and now Kabul are days to remember so they are NOT repeated.
Those responsible should be court-martialed at the very least. After a train wreck on the scale of our Afghan withdrawal, they would have been stuck in front of a wall and offered a blindfold in many places.
To call it a "train wreck" is generous, and an insult to the railroads. The Talibs kicked the Porta-Sh***r over, and the Biden military (as ordered by Gens. Austin, Milley, McKenzie, et al) ran out with Charmin-Ultra tailfeathers and our pants around our boots.
Very relevant history that more people should have looked before we decided on nation building. Thank you.
Kabul always struck me as a nasty and dangerous place, perhaps especially in 2007? I was fortunate to spend the majority of my deployment in Jalalabad (starting at Fort Sale with the ANA!) and other parts of N2KL, about which I was very happy. From my perspective, Operation Enduring Freedom started well, but ended horribly.
Despite the enormous HQ directly things (in country and out) (no offense), we could never define what our victory conditions really were (not in terms anyone could clearly articulate anyway) or who was really responsible for what. I always felt the US Armed Forces and some supporting civilians and contractors, did most of the work while other nations (Brits, Dutch and Aussies) helped some or just stood around (other nations, UN, State, USAID, etc.).
Oh but I was! After 3 months with the ANA I was reassigned to the ANP in Jalalabad. Ever try to coordinate the actions of multiple teams and HQ in multiple locations when you actually do not have any authority? It sucks! At least all of us went home alive.
Dems actual greatest FU was Kerry pressing that they could have caught Bin Laden early if more had been done. That put the second foot in the quagmire. Should have just made W. own it and actually articulate what the actual exit strategy was to be at that time.
I read Flashman in 1970 and from that piece of historical fiction I learned that European (and American) involvement in Afghan affairs was doomed to failure. Nothing that happened with the Soviet invasion and retreat, or the American misadventure came as a surprise.
Since we are talking history it only fitting that we should look a little closer at Lord Roberts who was one of the most decorated soldiers in the British Empire.
Just before WWI, he argued that free trade did not lead to peace as its many advocates -including Winston Churchill - believed. He also stated that Germany was the enemy despite all her outward displays of friendship and would attack as soon as she felt sure of victory.
Excellent history lesson, Sal. I shared this with Tim "Baba" Lynch who lived in Wazar Akbar Khan for several years when he was running aid projects and doing a bit of spying and was unaware of the history you so aptly shared. https://timlynch.substack.com/p/i-spy
Unwinnable Wars: Afghanistan and the Future of American Armed Statebuilding
by Adam Wunische
Ostensibly a post-mortem of the Afghanistan war, this is actually a compelling and provocative thesis on why success in limited interventions is difficult, if not impossible. Afghanistan is the primary case history relied upon, and referred to throughout. But it is not the sole example. Wunische also draws upon numerous other examples to illustrate and support his points – Iraq, Cuba, Vietnam, Haiti. The paradox is that everything done in pursuit of victory actually creates conditions that will prevent any such victory being realized.
This is the inescapable dilemma of nation-building that our leaders routinely decry but repeatedly engage. Wunische better defines the concept as armed state building, since the intervention is not to create a nation, but to remedy a failed state, institute security for the populace and establish governance, invariably in our image. Resources and money pour in, vastly exceeding the indigenous state’s ability to support and nourish itself through indigenous commerce, taxes or economic improvements. Preservation of the flow of money and resources becomes more important than winning. Time constraints exacerbate the problems – politicians want results to fit the election cycle. Personnel are deployed on limited time frames, rotate in and out due to their own career needs and institutional requirements – none of which have much to do with the long term needs and issues of effective state building. It collapses, as it must, when the flow of money and resources subsides.
Security forces are recreated, again in our image... but without any possibility of creating our logistics, air support, fire support, training and doctrine, so the total reliance on US military power and resources is another point of failure when those resources are withdrawn.
Armed state building ignores a number of critical, and inescapable factors that Wunische discusses – pre-existing conditions of violence and fractured civil and social institutions; unintended consequences that create dependencies and induce corruption, local and foreign constraints, forced unrealistic timelines, increasing population unrest because , after all, foreign troops are running things, the violence is being imposed upon them, in their houses and villages and cities, and the opposing forces are there and will be when the invaders leave.
It is a very substantial argument, well supported by historical examples throughout. The few successful examples cited all have in common specific, clear objectives and disciplined adherence to those objectives (avoiding the dreaded mission creep). They do not seek to establish cloned versions of US governance and institutions, but accept that the indigent population must and will pursue its own subject to its own history, culture, societal standards and practices. Failed states are not susceptible to armed state building, and the means employed in the effort undermine the objectives they are intended to achieve. We need more understanding of that among our makers of national policy and deciders of national interests. This book is a great way to start!
CDR Salamander this is an “After action report” from today, 16 October 2025 about 3:30 PM at my waterfront home with Tech William of Lawn Doctor, Millersville, MD.
William and I reviewed the Plan, to include the access of his 500 pound piece of heavy Aerating & Seeding machinery onto my “Disputed 0.10 waterfront acres” along the bulkhead of Section E, Lots 4 and 3, Masons Beach Deale, MD 20751.
We reviewed the access and the egress. We reviewed the documented boundaries on my Deeded Property Survey Registered in the Maryland Records, December 2017. Tech William affirmed he understood!
That understanding was demonstrated at about 3:30 PM when he was accosted first, then I was accosted, warned, harassed by Teri W. Prosser (TWP) who put his ridding lawn mower onto my “Disputed Property”, followed me and continued to harass me.
His wife, Mary Rice Prosser (MRP) followed by foot onto my disputed acreage, trying to body block me as she said, “What don’t you understand…”.
I took my green water bottle and my shoulder bag, pulled my arms in against my chest and walked fast to place my water onto my waterfront porch steps.
I still had to protect my worker, Tech William as he verbally explained to Aggressive HOA President TWP and MRP his need to egress back to the access between Lots 7 and 8, Section E. His truck and trailer were parked on the West side of First Avenue in this parking area.
Oh, btw, all appropriate Photos, texts were transmitted to my Attorney Brendan Callahan and my son, Captain C.H.H. USAF. Clear case of Discrimination and Harassment in the Home Front! Mine!
Navy won! As said by Tech William who never met me before and never observed such affirmative work by a U.S. Naval Officer! With respect submitted for your review. JAS
"I told you we'd win, Mackey!"
Sigh. What we learn from history, is that we don't fucking learn from history.
I would say those here on the Porch, know and appreciate history, geography, sociology, etc. The "we" here are opening to learning. I am unsure about the highly credentialed foreign policy "we's" in D.C.
There's two different "we" involved in my statement. One, the local we, our immediate audience. The second is the global "we." Humanity in general, and yes most specifically the four P crowd (Perfumed Princes of the Pentagon Palace.) and even worse, the never to be sufficiently damned fuckwits from Foggy Bottom. My only consolation is that the English during the empire had the same thing to say about the stupid bastards from State Street.
If we are restoring a warrior ethos, the first thing I would do is burn down the Burger King at Bagram. That should have been a big "WTFAWDH?" sign.
"The fall of Kabul could have been much worse."
Yes, but it could have been better too
But could we have? The various war college and postgraduate school theses over the past decade or so have increasing been about DEI and less about warfare. This really isn't a dig against those who chose that path. I am sure many high quality officers made a conscious decision to advance their education in a direction that made them most competitive for promotion.
CDR,
spot on and it was exactly what I felt the wokester was doing in troop leadership 101. What a lousy leader for those who lost their lives since our integration into that war zone tot eh loss of 13 young Americans and a loser photographed stepping on a plane ramp as the "last one out"... Biden American Failure.
You would have rather we called down the heat and shot it out in a wildly less favorable Dien Bien Phu?
Should have left from Bagram.
Maybe we’d still be there and propoing up a government. The order of our withdrawl made certain that is what would happen.
Good Morning CDR Salamander!
LCDR (Commander) Swann is walking into your Chart Room, singing… it’s a Friday, oh, btw…
“The Navy’s Got You Now!”
“No more writhing in those columns now!”
If you know about how the Koran was annotated by the great Islamic leaders of the past…
“This is the Way it is!”
“Like it or not!”
“The Navy’s Got It Now!”
This is when you smile CDR Salamander!
Thank you for the “E-Book” heads up!
I’ll ask AACC Library for this “Accommodation” if AACC LGS - Criminal Law “Accelerated Class starting 20 October 2025,” Syllabus requires me to “Read … Books”.
CDR Salamander, I watched every single Russian Federation movie made in Russian (I read the subtitles) about their time in Afghanistan! I needed to understand the reasons why they were directed to leave after their blood was thoroughly absorbed into the sand! With this said, CDR, I had to understand a better explanation of the Taliban! Furthermore, and this is why I needed “Nerves of Steel”, I had to dive into Turkey’s reasons for harming the Kurds of Northern Iraq! Please understand, I knew the “Death Penalty” was on the Table for Turkish Warrant Officer Dursun Ir’Ibas. I stood in the 7-Eleven waiting … I learned Dursun told his Commanding Officer, “I am!” despite his being told, “Do Not”! That year may have been 2007!
Similarly in 2012, Dursun made up a story to his next Group Commender, “I couldn’t sleep either.” I needed the Photograph of the Greek Orthodox Bible, Dursun and me inside the Dover, Deleware motel.
March 2013, was his “Last” communication. Since Dursun had already been in Turkish prison, if Dursun converted to Greek Orthodoxy in 2003 as he wrote in his email, that was his “Death Sentence”! I’ll never know!
CDR Salamander, I had to get the “Dirt” on the Iraqi! So I had to keep “In the Game!”
Of course, I was disturbed after I met with Secrete Service in 2017, “Do NOT give Wisssm al-Muzir a “Security Clearance”!
CDR Salamander, I’m still in “The Game”, trusting my friends in the Russian Federation Embassy, Washington D.C. and my “Professor” Russell Lee Otway, citizen of both Australia and Russia.
Now I must buckle down and learn “Law”!
So important for our Ship’s Guidance and Safety!
I still sing… “The Navy’s Got Me Now!”
“Let’s go Sal…onto Glory Now!”
Very respectfully, Nurse Jane (the singing Executive Officer).
If Americans in 1980s knew how their "helping brave Afghan rebels" turns out at 11 september 2001... they would likely unanimously vote for sending help to USSR during Afghan war.
Dilandu: Extrapolate your comment and the US would be better off not "helping" anyone.
And I would agree.
I liked Afghans being the good guys in movies, but I think it led us into having the wrong idea about the whole bloody affair. Rambo 3, The living Daylights come to mind.
If Americans in 2020s knew how their "helping brave Ukrainians" turns out at...
While I enthusiastically support DJT and Hegseth’s leadership (especially for the military), I do worry that they undervalue the worth of military history. Is there anyone on active duty who appreciates the military history of Afghanistan, or Vietnam for that matter? I truly hope their zeal for combat readiness doesn’t throw out the need to understand, and learn from history!
The nice thing about knowing Vietnamese history is we now have many Vietnamese serving who probably know Vietnamese history really well.
History does not "repeat", but patterns of human behavior, and the rise and decline of nations, most certainly does. The Soviets had a land route out, leading to the now famous bridge. We had an "air bridge" but elected to surrender security for one end of that "bridge" to...untrustworthy "partners" during the withdrawal. During my embassy tour, my office was responsible for evacuation planning (which was used twice in five years). DoS and DoD violated every tenet of NEO during this cluster. Those tenant violations occurred before, during (Donohue should have been court-martialed IMO) and after (Mckenzie's testimony is shameless). To paraphrase someone else here, while it could have been worse, it should have been so much better. Saigon, and now Kabul are days to remember so they are NOT repeated.
Those responsible should be court-martialed at the very least. After a train wreck on the scale of our Afghan withdrawal, they would have been stuck in front of a wall and offered a blindfold in many places.
To call it a "train wreck" is generous, and an insult to the railroads. The Talibs kicked the Porta-Sh***r over, and the Biden military (as ordered by Gens. Austin, Milley, McKenzie, et al) ran out with Charmin-Ultra tailfeathers and our pants around our boots.
Very relevant history that more people should have looked before we decided on nation building. Thank you.
Kabul always struck me as a nasty and dangerous place, perhaps especially in 2007? I was fortunate to spend the majority of my deployment in Jalalabad (starting at Fort Sale with the ANA!) and other parts of N2KL, about which I was very happy. From my perspective, Operation Enduring Freedom started well, but ended horribly.
Despite the enormous HQ directly things (in country and out) (no offense), we could never define what our victory conditions really were (not in terms anyone could clearly articulate anyway) or who was really responsible for what. I always felt the US Armed Forces and some supporting civilians and contractors, did most of the work while other nations (Brits, Dutch and Aussies) helped some or just stood around (other nations, UN, State, USAID, etc.).
What a waste.
You could have been with the ANP…so count your blessings
Oh but I was! After 3 months with the ANA I was reassigned to the ANP in Jalalabad. Ever try to coordinate the actions of multiple teams and HQ in multiple locations when you actually do not have any authority? It sucks! At least all of us went home alive.
Dems actual greatest FU was Kerry pressing that they could have caught Bin Laden early if more had been done. That put the second foot in the quagmire. Should have just made W. own it and actually articulate what the actual exit strategy was to be at that time.
I read Flashman in 1970 and from that piece of historical fiction I learned that European (and American) involvement in Afghan affairs was doomed to failure. Nothing that happened with the Soviet invasion and retreat, or the American misadventure came as a surprise.
Huzzah, Gordon. Flashman (1970). George MacDonald Fraser knew history. Everything he wrote was worth reading twice.
The only ones to be successful in Afghanistan were the Mongols to the best of my knowledge. Even Alexander the Great had trouble there.
Since we are talking history it only fitting that we should look a little closer at Lord Roberts who was one of the most decorated soldiers in the British Empire.
Just before WWI, he argued that free trade did not lead to peace as its many advocates -including Winston Churchill - believed. He also stated that Germany was the enemy despite all her outward displays of friendship and would attack as soon as she felt sure of victory.
There is much we can learn from the Earl Roberts.
Excellent history lesson, Sal. I shared this with Tim "Baba" Lynch who lived in Wazar Akbar Khan for several years when he was running aid projects and doing a bit of spying and was unaware of the history you so aptly shared. https://timlynch.substack.com/p/i-spy
Given the history of the place and the Elphinstone quality leadership from the Whitehouse down............
We were lucky.
In the decades of our visit to Afghanistan, one must wonder if anyone of importance knew the history of the Kabul.
“Salamander Constant: geography does not change.”
🎯💯🏆🥇
Wait long enough. The Black Sea, Aral, Caspian, Dead, and Salton Seas would like a word.
Let me suggest your next read....
Unwinnable Wars: Afghanistan and the Future of American Armed Statebuilding
by Adam Wunische
Ostensibly a post-mortem of the Afghanistan war, this is actually a compelling and provocative thesis on why success in limited interventions is difficult, if not impossible. Afghanistan is the primary case history relied upon, and referred to throughout. But it is not the sole example. Wunische also draws upon numerous other examples to illustrate and support his points – Iraq, Cuba, Vietnam, Haiti. The paradox is that everything done in pursuit of victory actually creates conditions that will prevent any such victory being realized.
This is the inescapable dilemma of nation-building that our leaders routinely decry but repeatedly engage. Wunische better defines the concept as armed state building, since the intervention is not to create a nation, but to remedy a failed state, institute security for the populace and establish governance, invariably in our image. Resources and money pour in, vastly exceeding the indigenous state’s ability to support and nourish itself through indigenous commerce, taxes or economic improvements. Preservation of the flow of money and resources becomes more important than winning. Time constraints exacerbate the problems – politicians want results to fit the election cycle. Personnel are deployed on limited time frames, rotate in and out due to their own career needs and institutional requirements – none of which have much to do with the long term needs and issues of effective state building. It collapses, as it must, when the flow of money and resources subsides.
Security forces are recreated, again in our image... but without any possibility of creating our logistics, air support, fire support, training and doctrine, so the total reliance on US military power and resources is another point of failure when those resources are withdrawn.
Armed state building ignores a number of critical, and inescapable factors that Wunische discusses – pre-existing conditions of violence and fractured civil and social institutions; unintended consequences that create dependencies and induce corruption, local and foreign constraints, forced unrealistic timelines, increasing population unrest because , after all, foreign troops are running things, the violence is being imposed upon them, in their houses and villages and cities, and the opposing forces are there and will be when the invaders leave.
It is a very substantial argument, well supported by historical examples throughout. The few successful examples cited all have in common specific, clear objectives and disciplined adherence to those objectives (avoiding the dreaded mission creep). They do not seek to establish cloned versions of US governance and institutions, but accept that the indigent population must and will pursue its own subject to its own history, culture, societal standards and practices. Failed states are not susceptible to armed state building, and the means employed in the effort undermine the objectives they are intended to achieve. We need more understanding of that among our makers of national policy and deciders of national interests. This book is a great way to start!
Here's your Amazon link:
https://www.amazon.com/Unwinnable-Wars-Afghanistan-American-Statebuilding/dp/1509554858?mfadid=adm
CDR Salamander this is an “After action report” from today, 16 October 2025 about 3:30 PM at my waterfront home with Tech William of Lawn Doctor, Millersville, MD.
William and I reviewed the Plan, to include the access of his 500 pound piece of heavy Aerating & Seeding machinery onto my “Disputed 0.10 waterfront acres” along the bulkhead of Section E, Lots 4 and 3, Masons Beach Deale, MD 20751.
We reviewed the access and the egress. We reviewed the documented boundaries on my Deeded Property Survey Registered in the Maryland Records, December 2017. Tech William affirmed he understood!
That understanding was demonstrated at about 3:30 PM when he was accosted first, then I was accosted, warned, harassed by Teri W. Prosser (TWP) who put his ridding lawn mower onto my “Disputed Property”, followed me and continued to harass me.
His wife, Mary Rice Prosser (MRP) followed by foot onto my disputed acreage, trying to body block me as she said, “What don’t you understand…”.
I took my green water bottle and my shoulder bag, pulled my arms in against my chest and walked fast to place my water onto my waterfront porch steps.
I still had to protect my worker, Tech William as he verbally explained to Aggressive HOA President TWP and MRP his need to egress back to the access between Lots 7 and 8, Section E. His truck and trailer were parked on the West side of First Avenue in this parking area.
Oh, btw, all appropriate Photos, texts were transmitted to my Attorney Brendan Callahan and my son, Captain C.H.H. USAF. Clear case of Discrimination and Harassment in the Home Front! Mine!
Navy won! As said by Tech William who never met me before and never observed such affirmative work by a U.S. Naval Officer! With respect submitted for your review. JAS