CDR Salamander, I am also a TLAM knowledgeable member. But with a twist. I was the 'owner' of four tactical nuclear wrahead mounted Tomahawks. Yes, I held the half of a metal credit card for each, the other half welded onto the warhead (under the personal accountabilty program for nuclear warhead managment). I had to inventory and report on a regular basis the current status. Until President George H W Bush removed them. In the Gulf war I was responsible for maintaining the systems on an Aegis cruiser that launched the first two Tomahawks of the Gulf war in 1990/1991. In the Book of Guiness records as the first launch of the war. These sewer pipes had computer brains. Initially they could be reprogrammed on the fly so you had to go to a speific launch basket location. Then they were upgraded so you could reprgram them on the fly. Over a million a pop. In my estimation as a conventional warhead missile a total waste of money. Way too expensive and not big bang for the buck. 2500 pound iron dumb bombs with the strap on targeting package much more economical. r/Karl
Giving Ukraine Tomahawk missiles that require American operators and American targeting information to hit targets well inside Russia amounts to a direct attack on Russia by the United States whether they are fired from inside Ukraine or not. The danger of this cannot be overstated.
There are other sources for information. You might consider try some of them. From the link below:
"Should the US deliver Tomahawks to Ukraine, the missiles would have to be operated either by US or UK technicians and would need to be supported by US overhead intelligence to select targets and program the missiles to hit them. Russia will regard the Tomahawks as a direct US intervention, and in fact there is no convenient way the US could deny it is operating the weapons."
This is an article by Stephen Bryen. He is a Deputy Under Secretary of Defense.
I did read the post. I enjoy your articles but whether the missiles are fired by Americans or Ukrainians, they still need American targeting information. This would be a dangerous escalation.
You have more confidence in the competence and honesty of our leadership than I do. And, as I have mentioned, the targets of those missiles may not regard us as the innocent bystanders of all that. I know I would hold a grudge were I in their place. (Come to think of it, I kind of already do)
True, but some of us remember things like "mission creep" and "“We are not about to send American boys nine or 10,000 miles away from their homes to do what Asian boys ought to be doing for themselves." , or lending a garden hose to a neighbor so that the neighbor could put out a fire in his house, etc. And, of course, the Russians might not see it quite the same way, noting the "Made in the USA" on the remnants of the warhead
late, late, ho-hum signaling. Ukraine has their own nice cheap version on the ramps.....just send in a Flock of FLAMINGO's. building more, or simply supplying the engines for them, might be a better way to go....
It is not cost. The TLAM missiles are very high priced. Even as a conventional war head the TLAM is a vry expensive option to use if more conventional iron bombs are available at much cheaper costs. That simple.
I'm all for using less expensive alternatives. That plays well to the mo' betta philosophy.
However...
The issue is that an iron bomb, not even a JDAM, is going to fly itself a couple thousand klicks to attack a target.
Now, if the Ukrainians have something in their "drone" arsenal that does the job perhaps subsidizing that would be a way better use of everyone's money. (Maybe even the DoW's.)
Even if we aren't doing any active training but can seem to be doing so.
Though, honestly, and sadly, the standard Putin response to such a thing seems to be to launch an alpha strike on Ukrainian civilian targets. But he's likely to do that anyway for some other reason.
Yes, a tactical nuclear warhead would be a waste on such an expensive missile. You don't waste an expensive missile with a computer brian to shoot down a small target. How can that missile be employed in a more conventional approach without wasting huge amount of expenditures.
I will caveat I have no direct TLAM experience, just ordnance.
I will point out that the Ukrainians have shown incredible ingenuity in many aspects of their war effort. And that is coupled to extremely short R&D cycles for much of what they have produced.
They are extremely motivated people.
I would not take a bet that if we handed them crated TLAMs and the hardware/software to program them that they couldn't have weapons on target in a month or two.
Just wondering if the US and TLAM manufacturer can build a stripped-down version of the missile, tailored for Ukraine.
If the missile is going to be used almost immediately, there's no need for long-term storage requirements. Maybe a stripped out unnecessary complexity and expensive electronics, and seeker.
If we supply Ukraine with missiles that can reach deep inside Russia would Russia be legally justified in sinking ships carrying those missile or bombing factories that made those missiles?
They would be no less constrained than they are now with artillery ammo, missiles of all sorts, tanks, IFVs, airplanes and all manner of munitions and training that is being provided.
And it seems pretty likely that GRU and maybe the FSB have been at work sabotaging Euro industry already.
Roughly inernational law speaking, any party taking part in any form of mil-aid is a part of it - thus a legal target. The only reason why it is not happening, is the nuclear option. Basically, RF has its hands tied till it is near undeniable to expect nuclear warheads flying their way ( INF anyone ? It was the reason why it was introdu ed back then ), or, as they say, direct involvement of troops, witch they would not stand numerically. Already they could use the nuke option, if arguing, that they will see the use of any weapon system or platform capable of delivering one, being used against it, just as both USSR and US ended up thinking back then. ... it is also a reason why, in the long gone forgotten times, support of mil. grade was held secret, cause the main "idea" of international law, that the best outcome is the shortest war. That is if noone adds a single bullet to the fire so the partyes at war would quickly run out at some point. But that was, from the perspective of the secret servicess, unaceptable - they wanted to win at their term. After the 90', and specifically balkan/Kosovo, anyone said to screw the necessity of secrecy and screw the international law, so that is how both RF's logic in Ukraine is applied, just as the US's and UK' in terms of open political, economic and sanction regimechange all around the world. It is just the reality of this time now, you got a bogger stick, or BS civillian populations that the corrupt figure in oppositions "means well for them" till he gets to turn the state on its head in an other nations favour. All whyle playing as if the UN still mattered. So ... no RF action within NATO space ( witch is why its enlargement never stopped as a tool for futher "safe" hostile action ), nor any meaningfull engagement of the west in UA to not scare the big red button. So it is just a resource and industry war now ... and also just another one that will be just a step to further the later "causes" depending how it ends. Its no ColdWar to BS ouselvet there are any moral sides anymore, nor any near intelligent people in most world governments and their agencyes ... we are all big boys with plenty knowledge from the past to see what the world is now. ... the only thing concerning me as a european is the grimm future as a third world region in the same situation as was half of africa and asia in endless proxy nonsense to none of our benefit no matter the side. BS-ing anyone "being part of NATO" would mean anything, just as the sovoet union before ... all else here is just discission of personal interrest of big guns ( and wich guy does not like that ? ) and armchair strategy of unachievable ideals from the bunch of us, that have no meaningfull impact on it whatsoewer.
I was relaxing in your weapons dialogue until I read…
“Tomahawks roll off the back of a C-17 at Halloween time”.
That got my attention!
Now it’s my turn to stay calm and “Breath”.
My son… USAF Pilot…C-17…
The Eagle, that’s me, … flying high back up to my safe nest!
The memories I have of my son are precious! I’m glad I took quite a bit of photos and videos while he lived with me until he flew away, 1998 - 2020. I watched him grow up!
Truth is, I’m home, Waterfront, Chesapeake Bay is calm now.
At about 0730 AM, this Chesapeake Bay was “High Tide” snd “Breeching” the Bulkhead!
Now… 18:19 PM…
Birds are tweeting and I’ve been “Busy” for these past ten (10) hours, I haven’t read any “Bad News!”
CDR Salamander, do you believe in hypnosis? Let’s pretend you do!
Sir, you are no longer going to want Ukraine to challenge Russia anymore!
Please allow Russia to settle where she wants.
New Mission so let’s head to the Chart Room please and pull up some maps.
Pinpoint Istanbul, the Greek Patriarchy.
Note time November… entire month!
Friday, 18 October 2025 “No Kings Day” has passed… no casualties.
Our November Mission is to protect the Greek Holy Patriarchy! Turkey will not protect those Greek Priests attending a “Special Meeting”.
Our second Mission, if you choose to accept, protect the Holy Orthodox sites in Jerusalem, the Muslims don’t and neither will the Jews!
So CDR Salamander, is it up to us Americans under President Donald Trump to protect the Greek Orthodox Holy Sites in Jerusalem? Nurse Jane wants to know, please. Thank you sir. I’ll wait for replies! Good Night.
US is providing (since get go) targeting to Kiev otherwise they would not hit a thing. US is providing access to sensitive GPS links and other enroute navigation aids controlling weapons on mission.
Last big congress approved funding spring 2024 included $20B for EUCOM direct operations support to Kiev, a lot of intel assets O&M charges.
US is already inviting response, putting 200 kg warhead 2000 kicks inside Russia for a couple of million a pop is not much escalation.....
If TLAM had tactical use it might be seen as escalation!
Russian forbearance to US miscues remains as it was during the cold war!
When their forbearance runs out, Ed, standby for the biggest FAFO video on YouTube ever. We might want to exercise some restraint until we EMP-proof all our stuff.
Very likely Russia knows where Americans supporting Ukraine operations are. One of these provocations is going to get a Kinzhal response to those locations
What does the supply of Tomahawks look like, and how many of them (if any) are about to age out and need to be destroyed or massively upgraded? e.g., Greece supplying 203mm SPA to Ukraine.
A year is a long time in a war. A war of attrition looks slow, troop moments and battle spaces seem static until they are not. One day the Russian Forces are at point A, and the next they have nearly encircled a major logistics hub of the Ukrainian Forces, perhaps cutting them off from avenues of resupply and or retreat. When an army retreats the losses are always substantially worse, ask Napoleon. Bands of defensive trenches very well constructed are found empty by Russian Federation reconnaissance in force units. The east west axis of attack slowly inexorably expands. Viktor Orban Prime Minister of Hungry, and they know something about their Russian neighbor has said there are two things to consider. 1. People should understand that when two Slavic nations go to war it is not a good thing, and best to stay out of the fight. 2. If anyone was truly serious about ending the war do SMO in the Donbas, they would go to Moscow. We have done neither. Except now speak of potentially expanding the war effort. Russia demonstrated the amazing technology of the Orshnik hypersonic missiles. Wouldn’t want to see them provoked into testing them out again.
CDR Salamander, I am also a TLAM knowledgeable member. But with a twist. I was the 'owner' of four tactical nuclear wrahead mounted Tomahawks. Yes, I held the half of a metal credit card for each, the other half welded onto the warhead (under the personal accountabilty program for nuclear warhead managment). I had to inventory and report on a regular basis the current status. Until President George H W Bush removed them. In the Gulf war I was responsible for maintaining the systems on an Aegis cruiser that launched the first two Tomahawks of the Gulf war in 1990/1991. In the Book of Guiness records as the first launch of the war. These sewer pipes had computer brains. Initially they could be reprogrammed on the fly so you had to go to a speific launch basket location. Then they were upgraded so you could reprgram them on the fly. Over a million a pop. In my estimation as a conventional warhead missile a total waste of money. Way too expensive and not big bang for the buck. 2500 pound iron dumb bombs with the strap on targeting package much more economical. r/Karl
Well of course a nuke guy would think a measly conventional warhead would be a waste! ;-)
Giving Ukraine Tomahawk missiles that require American operators and American targeting information to hit targets well inside Russia amounts to a direct attack on Russia by the United States whether they are fired from inside Ukraine or not. The danger of this cannot be overstated.
Agree. Escalation coefficient needs to be assessed.
And nowhere was that duggested here.
From the first line of the article:
"Rightfully, over the last week there’s been a fair bit of chatter about TLAM going to Ukraine."
And if you follow the link, you get this:
"Vance says US considering Tomahawk missiles for Ukraine"
Not manned by americans.
There are other sources for information. You might consider try some of them. From the link below:
"Should the US deliver Tomahawks to Ukraine, the missiles would have to be operated either by US or UK technicians and would need to be supported by US overhead intelligence to select targets and program the missiles to hit them. Russia will regard the Tomahawks as a direct US intervention, and in fact there is no convenient way the US could deny it is operating the weapons."
This is an article by Stephen Bryen. He is a Deputy Under Secretary of Defense.
https://weapons.substack.com/p/tomahawks-for-kiev-a-dangerous-idea
It's as deniable as Russian troops in Crimea in 2014 and a couple years later in the Donbas.
Just sayin...
Or Koreans in Kursk…
Dude…we would train Ukrainians like we do the Brits. Read the post.
I did read the post. I enjoy your articles but whether the missiles are fired by Americans or Ukrainians, they still need American targeting information. This would be a dangerous escalation.
You have more confidence in the competence and honesty of our leadership than I do. And, as I have mentioned, the targets of those missiles may not regard us as the innocent bystanders of all that. I know I would hold a grudge were I in their place. (Come to think of it, I kind of already do)
Want to bet?
True, but some of us remember things like "mission creep" and "“We are not about to send American boys nine or 10,000 miles away from their homes to do what Asian boys ought to be doing for themselves." , or lending a garden hose to a neighbor so that the neighbor could put out a fire in his house, etc. And, of course, the Russians might not see it quite the same way, noting the "Made in the USA" on the remnants of the warhead
How about just more components for their current long-range drones? Give us a capacity we can use ourselves.
seconds apart! great minds......
late, late, ho-hum signaling. Ukraine has their own nice cheap version on the ramps.....just send in a Flock of FLAMINGO's. building more, or simply supplying the engines for them, might be a better way to go....
Excellent article and insight. Thank you.
I think it was here that it was mentioned a battery is a 16 round salvo. Nit the limit if what can be done.
It is not cost. The TLAM missiles are very high priced. Even as a conventional war head the TLAM is a vry expensive option to use if more conventional iron bombs are available at much cheaper costs. That simple.
I'm all for using less expensive alternatives. That plays well to the mo' betta philosophy.
However...
The issue is that an iron bomb, not even a JDAM, is going to fly itself a couple thousand klicks to attack a target.
Now, if the Ukrainians have something in their "drone" arsenal that does the job perhaps subsidizing that would be a way better use of everyone's money. (Maybe even the DoW's.)
I think Cdr S and Trump should consider breaking the issue into two parts:
1. US is considering release of TLAM to UKR and therefore is training UKR Forces on operations, maint. and deployment/use
2. After the UKR Team is fully capable, the plan is to transfer a unit set of gear to UKR.
That gives both sides 6 months to consider the impacts
Brilliant.
Even if we aren't doing any active training but can seem to be doing so.
Though, honestly, and sadly, the standard Putin response to such a thing seems to be to launch an alpha strike on Ukrainian civilian targets. But he's likely to do that anyway for some other reason.
Yes, a tactical nuclear warhead would be a waste on such an expensive missile. You don't waste an expensive missile with a computer brian to shoot down a small target. How can that missile be employed in a more conventional approach without wasting huge amount of expenditures.
I will caveat I have no direct TLAM experience, just ordnance.
I will point out that the Ukrainians have shown incredible ingenuity in many aspects of their war effort. And that is coupled to extremely short R&D cycles for much of what they have produced.
They are extremely motivated people.
I would not take a bet that if we handed them crated TLAMs and the hardware/software to program them that they couldn't have weapons on target in a month or two.
Just wondering if the US and TLAM manufacturer can build a stripped-down version of the missile, tailored for Ukraine.
If the missile is going to be used almost immediately, there's no need for long-term storage requirements. Maybe a stripped out unnecessary complexity and expensive electronics, and seeker.
Could it be done? Probably.
The real issue is whether it could be done in less than a decade and under $1B.
The Ukrainians need OTS stuff, not MIC vaporware.
If we supply Ukraine with missiles that can reach deep inside Russia would Russia be legally justified in sinking ships carrying those missile or bombing factories that made those missiles?
They would be no less constrained than they are now with artillery ammo, missiles of all sorts, tanks, IFVs, airplanes and all manner of munitions and training that is being provided.
And it seems pretty likely that GRU and maybe the FSB have been at work sabotaging Euro industry already.
Roughly inernational law speaking, any party taking part in any form of mil-aid is a part of it - thus a legal target. The only reason why it is not happening, is the nuclear option. Basically, RF has its hands tied till it is near undeniable to expect nuclear warheads flying their way ( INF anyone ? It was the reason why it was introdu ed back then ), or, as they say, direct involvement of troops, witch they would not stand numerically. Already they could use the nuke option, if arguing, that they will see the use of any weapon system or platform capable of delivering one, being used against it, just as both USSR and US ended up thinking back then. ... it is also a reason why, in the long gone forgotten times, support of mil. grade was held secret, cause the main "idea" of international law, that the best outcome is the shortest war. That is if noone adds a single bullet to the fire so the partyes at war would quickly run out at some point. But that was, from the perspective of the secret servicess, unaceptable - they wanted to win at their term. After the 90', and specifically balkan/Kosovo, anyone said to screw the necessity of secrecy and screw the international law, so that is how both RF's logic in Ukraine is applied, just as the US's and UK' in terms of open political, economic and sanction regimechange all around the world. It is just the reality of this time now, you got a bogger stick, or BS civillian populations that the corrupt figure in oppositions "means well for them" till he gets to turn the state on its head in an other nations favour. All whyle playing as if the UN still mattered. So ... no RF action within NATO space ( witch is why its enlargement never stopped as a tool for futher "safe" hostile action ), nor any meaningfull engagement of the west in UA to not scare the big red button. So it is just a resource and industry war now ... and also just another one that will be just a step to further the later "causes" depending how it ends. Its no ColdWar to BS ouselvet there are any moral sides anymore, nor any near intelligent people in most world governments and their agencyes ... we are all big boys with plenty knowledge from the past to see what the world is now. ... the only thing concerning me as a european is the grimm future as a third world region in the same situation as was half of africa and asia in endless proxy nonsense to none of our benefit no matter the side. BS-ing anyone "being part of NATO" would mean anything, just as the sovoet union before ... all else here is just discission of personal interrest of big guns ( and wich guy does not like that ? ) and armchair strategy of unachievable ideals from the bunch of us, that have no meaningfull impact on it whatsoewer.
Good Evening CDR Salamander…
Thank your for writing.
I was relaxing in your weapons dialogue until I read…
“Tomahawks roll off the back of a C-17 at Halloween time”.
That got my attention!
Now it’s my turn to stay calm and “Breath”.
My son… USAF Pilot…C-17…
The Eagle, that’s me, … flying high back up to my safe nest!
The memories I have of my son are precious! I’m glad I took quite a bit of photos and videos while he lived with me until he flew away, 1998 - 2020. I watched him grow up!
Truth is, I’m home, Waterfront, Chesapeake Bay is calm now.
At about 0730 AM, this Chesapeake Bay was “High Tide” snd “Breeching” the Bulkhead!
Now… 18:19 PM…
Birds are tweeting and I’ve been “Busy” for these past ten (10) hours, I haven’t read any “Bad News!”
CDR Salamander, do you believe in hypnosis? Let’s pretend you do!
Sir, you are no longer going to want Ukraine to challenge Russia anymore!
Please allow Russia to settle where she wants.
New Mission so let’s head to the Chart Room please and pull up some maps.
Pinpoint Istanbul, the Greek Patriarchy.
Note time November… entire month!
Friday, 18 October 2025 “No Kings Day” has passed… no casualties.
Our November Mission is to protect the Greek Holy Patriarchy! Turkey will not protect those Greek Priests attending a “Special Meeting”.
Our second Mission, if you choose to accept, protect the Holy Orthodox sites in Jerusalem, the Muslims don’t and neither will the Jews!
So CDR Salamander, is it up to us Americans under President Donald Trump to protect the Greek Orthodox Holy Sites in Jerusalem? Nurse Jane wants to know, please. Thank you sir. I’ll wait for replies! Good Night.
Isn't this why Russia invaded Ukraine, to prevent these kind of weapons to be placed on their border?
When Russia and/ or China decide to place similar weapons in Cuba or Central America, how will the US react?
The Russians will sell long range missile that can be either conventional or nucllear armed to DPRK who will trans-ship them to Cuba and Costa Rico.
Or the Houthis.
> Isn't this why Russia invaded Ukraine, to prevent these kind of weapons to be placed on their border?
Yes, amazing how invading countries tends to result in the invaded country and all your other neighbors doing their best to acquire better weapons.
You are aware that Poroshenko lost to Zelinsky in the 2019 election, and Putin invaded anyway.
US is providing (since get go) targeting to Kiev otherwise they would not hit a thing. US is providing access to sensitive GPS links and other enroute navigation aids controlling weapons on mission.
Last big congress approved funding spring 2024 included $20B for EUCOM direct operations support to Kiev, a lot of intel assets O&M charges.
US is already inviting response, putting 200 kg warhead 2000 kicks inside Russia for a couple of million a pop is not much escalation.....
If TLAM had tactical use it might be seen as escalation!
Russian forbearance to US miscues remains as it was during the cold war!
When their forbearance runs out, Ed, standby for the biggest FAFO video on YouTube ever. We might want to exercise some restraint until we EMP-proof all our stuff.
Very likely Russia knows where Americans supporting Ukraine operations are. One of these provocations is going to get a Kinzhal response to those locations
What does the supply of Tomahawks look like, and how many of them (if any) are about to age out and need to be destroyed or massively upgraded? e.g., Greece supplying 203mm SPA to Ukraine.
A year is a long time in a war. A war of attrition looks slow, troop moments and battle spaces seem static until they are not. One day the Russian Forces are at point A, and the next they have nearly encircled a major logistics hub of the Ukrainian Forces, perhaps cutting them off from avenues of resupply and or retreat. When an army retreats the losses are always substantially worse, ask Napoleon. Bands of defensive trenches very well constructed are found empty by Russian Federation reconnaissance in force units. The east west axis of attack slowly inexorably expands. Viktor Orban Prime Minister of Hungry, and they know something about their Russian neighbor has said there are two things to consider. 1. People should understand that when two Slavic nations go to war it is not a good thing, and best to stay out of the fight. 2. If anyone was truly serious about ending the war do SMO in the Donbas, they would go to Moscow. We have done neither. Except now speak of potentially expanding the war effort. Russia demonstrated the amazing technology of the Orshnik hypersonic missiles. Wouldn’t want to see them provoked into testing them out again.
US never fails to double down on stupid.