The CDR writes: "Due to structural integrity, moment arms, survivability, and a whole host of engineering issues—you just can’t willy-nilly go about putting weapons all over the place."
<em>USS Yorktown</em>, CV-5, would like a word with you. From Wikipedia:
Yorktown departed Norfolk on 16 December (1941) for the Pacific, her secondary gun galleries studded with new Oerlikon 20 mm guns. (The ship's Gunnery Officer retained the Browning M2 .50 caliber machine guns the Oerlikons replaced, and acquired a supply of M1919A4 .30 caliber machine guns as well. The crew discovered the pintle mounts of the .30 calibers fitted neatly into cut swab handles, and the swab handles themselves fitted neatly into the hollow pipes used for the ship's safety lines. Dozens of sailors went into the unofficial antiaircraft gun business, and according to one report, "Yorktown bristled with more guns than a Mexican revolution movie."
Ships with greater initial displacement and stability have an innately greater capacity to be added onto. I give you the LCS, with its uniquely-defined acceptable stability margin as a counter-example to Yorktown.
Any anti-drone weapon has to be relatively cheap and available in large quantities. Two 40mm's are probably OK for the surface fleet, but "swarms" might need a type of canister shot-shell (25mm?) with a high rate of fire for close in surprise launches from autonomous sub-surface or container launched platforms.
I think the cure for drones is likely non-kinetic. Somthing like the Leonidas microwave system is what I expect to see on ships in the future (hopefully). Plus, I understand that the new SEWIP variants can actually do the same thing, although mirenin a focused beam than the Leonidas, which can cover a whole swath.of airspace at once...
I can't stop wondering about how much power a SPY-series radar array can put into a narrow spot beam, and jump that beam from target to target. Given the UNLCASS information available on the Aegis series systems, it seems like that *ought* to be enough wattage/volume to confuse, or possibly even kill, many of the bottom-tier drone threats within ranges of 1-5 miles.
Not an option I'd want for primary usage, but as a back-pocket option, and a threat to make potential adversaries spend more on shielded electronics, I would think it bears looking into.
I have been advocating for the UK’s River class batch 2 OPV’s to be put through a lethality upgrade but fitting the MK110 57mm or the 40mm as mentioned onto the A position of the ships whilst fitting two 30mm remote Autocannons port and starboard. This would be an inexpensive way of rapidly increasing the fire power of such ships so they can aid in littoral escort missions as a posed to basically just humanitarian and law enforcement operations as is presently the case. I also agree that adding such weapons to large fleet auxiliaries should be done at pace, and by default on new units. They should not be seen as an optional requirement at this point in maritime defence policy and design.
If it’s an add on or replacement system, ammo ends up being moved in boxes to the ready service mag. Built in, there can be a lift system to the mount.
The basic premise, as I understood Sal, was to bolt guns on most any flat open surface. Likely these locations had things underneath, that don't accommodate your built in lifts to the mount.
My point goes to your first, "hand moving boxes", my suggestion is that these hand delivered gun locations should be served by a couple of generic dumb waiter lifts to prevent passageways and ladders from being blocked by ammo parties while the ship is at GQ, with the compartmentalization I expect occurs
Billy Mitchell brought the future demise of the battleship into focus for those who cared to look and see. The aircraft carrier was ascendent, along with Naval aviation. Fast forward to today, and relatively cheap, and therefore plentiful antiship platforms (ASMs and drones) have created the well documented "cost and numbers cost curve deficit" first Russia and now the U.S. are experiencing in real time. Layered defense is the current choice for a solution. Guns and directed energy (always "almost here") in combination are last chance / point defense solutions, with longer range, much more costly interceptors (whose magazines exhaust quickly) in the mid and long range. When fighting an "away game" the ranges and magazine depth of the "home team" lends itself to "swarms" of attack platforms. We do need a "revolution" in ship defense weapons, tactics and procedures. At least ammunition can be replenished underway. The day an Arleigh Burke gets sunk by a bunch suicide drones will be "revolutionary". Just not in the way we want. Do we have a Billy Mitchell in the audience? Do I see a hand?
(ahem) WWII K-class blimps could carry equivalent of three of the above mentioned Bofors. It might be fun to have a pair of (modern) airships act as constant escort over Navy warships, port and starboard. Out of the box thinking for sure, but........
WRT out of the box thinking, would it be feasible for small unmanned boats act as ground points for WWll type barrage balloons with their wire tenacles hanging below to counter airborne drone swarms.
Kudos for the willingness to imagine....... Tethered aerostats have a frequent tendency to break free; I imagine cables stretching between some overhead craft and a surface link would be just as "iffy". Length of the cables might limit heights of such protection as well. Better to have an independent airship flying top cover; able to change altitudes, positions, and range outward from the warship to any direction or distance as needed.
Having a couple of $7 Million airships on hand to protect a $400 Million+ warship would seem to be a reasonable investment.
I looked up your K class blimp solution and WWll K's could carry a decent load but they only had one weapon with a recoil and that being a single machine gun. My guess is the recoil from your three Bofors would rip the gas bag in shreds in seconds. A blimp, by definition is non ridged. My idea needs replacing the balloons with kites or the like, the Fleet is always underway making wind. Why, you might ask. A single flight in a K-class could use $100000 in helium. Soooo...IMHO the K concept is unworkable for costs, capability and vulnerability not to mention blue water ops too far from a bingo field as well as foul weather. As a retired fighter pilot, I would have loved nothing more than to be in a blimp world. What do you think WWl pilots favorite target was?
heh heh! loved that you took the time to look into it. However......note my avatar here. "No blimps" That's me. No blimps, no dirigibles. also, my original reply post on this thread mentions the use of "modern" airships rather than blimps.
so, a bit of explanation.....no more glorified balloons (blimps). Instead, fully rigid hulled lighter-than-air airships made of ceramic reinforced aluminum and carbon foam. different materials.....robust and extremely fire resistant....so, using flammable gas rather than Helium. different shape as well.....broad lifting body. stealthy as B-2. amphibious.
a single Bofors would suffice. rest of payload would be ammo stores.
It’s good in that the mount doesn’t leave the ammo exposed like the mk 38 options. Probably relevant when ice is present. I think in the end we all might be more confident with a 40/76/127mm mix over 25/30/57/127mm mix.
But it appears that if you have the choice larger gun is better. That said, if there's the choice of put on 2x 30mm vs 1x 57mm I'd think long and hard about what my likely target sets were before I took a single gun.
Every carrier should have 15 teams of manned CIWS (probably pilots or air crew): 5 with Javelin, 5 with Stinger missiles, and 5 with .50 cal. These teams should be active for every transit of Strait of Hormuz, Bab al Mandeeb, and Suez Canal.
They should also have portable teams - sent to tankers.
Because if you think Iran has buckled? The Houthis? -- We get paid to thing differently.
*Bruno Gaido was a radio‑gunner for the Douglas SBD Dauntless dive bomber on USS Enterprise. Five Japanese bombers attempted a bombings, and one heavily damaged aircraft was heading straight for the Enterprise. From his open‑deck battle station, Gaido darted across the deck, scrambled into the rear seat of the parked SBD, and manned its .30‑caliber machine guns.
He went below and assumed he was in trouble for his unauthorized action - Bull Halsey had him brought to the bridge and spot promoted him for his actions.
At one point the now DDG 1000 class had 40mm secondary mounts on top of the hangar but the Navy decided to fit the 57mm for commonality with LCS and to avoid introducing another gun system and ammo type into the inventory. I remember also looking at the 30mm mount from the AAAV as an option.
I must be misremembering on the sequence but the 40mm was on the baseline at one point. The 30mm was fitted to the LPD so it was in the logistics system.
Like the Browning M2, some weapons systems are just timeless. With the rise and threat of massed drone swarms, those 40mm Bofors look like a better addition to almost any warship's deck. Great writeup and as a recent subscriber I am going to go through your previous posts - Bravo Zulu!
add to the mix some modern equivalent of the 20mm oerlikon that doesnt require external electric power (power WILL fail on the ships hit by ordnance - CHENG Murphy ) to function and were talking business...
Only problem is Oerlikon was already only a morale booster by 1944 (though better than a Ma Duece). Probably would look at one of the pedestal mounts for MANPADS.
The Ukrainian military said Russia launched 70 missiles and 611 drones. Citing preliminary data, it said air defenses shot down 50 of the missiles and 582 of the drones. (6/14/2026) 📡💥
4 per replenishment ship would be a good start.
The CDR writes: "Due to structural integrity, moment arms, survivability, and a whole host of engineering issues—you just can’t willy-nilly go about putting weapons all over the place."
<em>USS Yorktown</em>, CV-5, would like a word with you. From Wikipedia:
Yorktown departed Norfolk on 16 December (1941) for the Pacific, her secondary gun galleries studded with new Oerlikon 20 mm guns. (The ship's Gunnery Officer retained the Browning M2 .50 caliber machine guns the Oerlikons replaced, and acquired a supply of M1919A4 .30 caliber machine guns as well. The crew discovered the pintle mounts of the .30 calibers fitted neatly into cut swab handles, and the swab handles themselves fitted neatly into the hollow pipes used for the ship's safety lines. Dozens of sailors went into the unofficial antiaircraft gun business, and according to one report, "Yorktown bristled with more guns than a Mexican revolution movie."
Ships with greater initial displacement and stability have an innately greater capacity to be added onto. I give you the LCS, with its uniquely-defined acceptable stability margin as a counter-example to Yorktown.
Most of the PT boats also received crew-sourced and installed ad-hoc weapons upgrades, some to pretty ludicrous levels.
The Army refers to such ingenuity as field-expedient
You have to love the creativity.
Any anti-drone weapon has to be relatively cheap and available in large quantities. Two 40mm's are probably OK for the surface fleet, but "swarms" might need a type of canister shot-shell (25mm?) with a high rate of fire for close in surprise launches from autonomous sub-surface or container launched platforms.
In that case, the target is the launch platform, an old-school big dangerous thing that needs blowing up.
I think the cure for drones is likely non-kinetic. Somthing like the Leonidas microwave system is what I expect to see on ships in the future (hopefully). Plus, I understand that the new SEWIP variants can actually do the same thing, although mirenin a focused beam than the Leonidas, which can cover a whole swath.of airspace at once...
I can't stop wondering about how much power a SPY-series radar array can put into a narrow spot beam, and jump that beam from target to target. Given the UNLCASS information available on the Aegis series systems, it seems like that *ought* to be enough wattage/volume to confuse, or possibly even kill, many of the bottom-tier drone threats within ranges of 1-5 miles.
Not an option I'd want for primary usage, but as a back-pocket option, and a threat to make potential adversaries spend more on shielded electronics, I would think it bears looking into.
I'm wondering if the revolver system of the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall_Oerlikon_Millennium_Gun
could be adapted to the 40mm/70 gun.
Among other things, it helps spread breech thermal load even without water cooling, and it should increase the speed of ammo switching.
I have been advocating for the UK’s River class batch 2 OPV’s to be put through a lethality upgrade but fitting the MK110 57mm or the 40mm as mentioned onto the A position of the ships whilst fitting two 30mm remote Autocannons port and starboard. This would be an inexpensive way of rapidly increasing the fire power of such ships so they can aid in littoral escort missions as a posed to basically just humanitarian and law enforcement operations as is presently the case. I also agree that adding such weapons to large fleet auxiliaries should be done at pace, and by default on new units. They should not be seen as an optional requirement at this point in maritime defence policy and design.
It would compromise their immigration support mission.
WRT the UK and RN I support snark, SGT.
Not mentioned, I assume there is some sort of dumb waiter to bring deep magazine rounds up to repace ready ammo?
Or is there going to be ammo, passed up the ladders?
If it’s an add on or replacement system, ammo ends up being moved in boxes to the ready service mag. Built in, there can be a lift system to the mount.
The basic premise, as I understood Sal, was to bolt guns on most any flat open surface. Likely these locations had things underneath, that don't accommodate your built in lifts to the mount.
My point goes to your first, "hand moving boxes", my suggestion is that these hand delivered gun locations should be served by a couple of generic dumb waiter lifts to prevent passageways and ladders from being blocked by ammo parties while the ship is at GQ, with the compartmentalization I expect occurs
The Barbette has an ammo hoist fed I believe that is manned or was at one time for the 5" possible 42 guns.
I'd think there is a magazine below that feeds this gun.
Billy Mitchell brought the future demise of the battleship into focus for those who cared to look and see. The aircraft carrier was ascendent, along with Naval aviation. Fast forward to today, and relatively cheap, and therefore plentiful antiship platforms (ASMs and drones) have created the well documented "cost and numbers cost curve deficit" first Russia and now the U.S. are experiencing in real time. Layered defense is the current choice for a solution. Guns and directed energy (always "almost here") in combination are last chance / point defense solutions, with longer range, much more costly interceptors (whose magazines exhaust quickly) in the mid and long range. When fighting an "away game" the ranges and magazine depth of the "home team" lends itself to "swarms" of attack platforms. We do need a "revolution" in ship defense weapons, tactics and procedures. At least ammunition can be replenished underway. The day an Arleigh Burke gets sunk by a bunch suicide drones will be "revolutionary". Just not in the way we want. Do we have a Billy Mitchell in the audience? Do I see a hand?
(ahem) WWII K-class blimps could carry equivalent of three of the above mentioned Bofors. It might be fun to have a pair of (modern) airships act as constant escort over Navy warships, port and starboard. Out of the box thinking for sure, but........
WRT out of the box thinking, would it be feasible for small unmanned boats act as ground points for WWll type barrage balloons with their wire tenacles hanging below to counter airborne drone swarms.
Kudos for the willingness to imagine....... Tethered aerostats have a frequent tendency to break free; I imagine cables stretching between some overhead craft and a surface link would be just as "iffy". Length of the cables might limit heights of such protection as well. Better to have an independent airship flying top cover; able to change altitudes, positions, and range outward from the warship to any direction or distance as needed.
Having a couple of $7 Million airships on hand to protect a $400 Million+ warship would seem to be a reasonable investment.
I looked up your K class blimp solution and WWll K's could carry a decent load but they only had one weapon with a recoil and that being a single machine gun. My guess is the recoil from your three Bofors would rip the gas bag in shreds in seconds. A blimp, by definition is non ridged. My idea needs replacing the balloons with kites or the like, the Fleet is always underway making wind. Why, you might ask. A single flight in a K-class could use $100000 in helium. Soooo...IMHO the K concept is unworkable for costs, capability and vulnerability not to mention blue water ops too far from a bingo field as well as foul weather. As a retired fighter pilot, I would have loved nothing more than to be in a blimp world. What do you think WWl pilots favorite target was?
heh heh! loved that you took the time to look into it. However......note my avatar here. "No blimps" That's me. No blimps, no dirigibles. also, my original reply post on this thread mentions the use of "modern" airships rather than blimps.
so, a bit of explanation.....no more glorified balloons (blimps). Instead, fully rigid hulled lighter-than-air airships made of ceramic reinforced aluminum and carbon foam. different materials.....robust and extremely fire resistant....so, using flammable gas rather than Helium. different shape as well.....broad lifting body. stealthy as B-2. amphibious.
a single Bofors would suffice. rest of payload would be ammo stores.
( you might enjoy this: https://militaryairships.blogspot.com/ )
It’s good in that the mount doesn’t leave the ammo exposed like the mk 38 options. Probably relevant when ice is present. I think in the end we all might be more confident with a 40/76/127mm mix over 25/30/57/127mm mix.
Agree, but if all the space and weight you have only gets you a 25mm or a 30mm, I'd take it.
And I'm still suspicious of the 57mmm, but would also take that over nothing and probably over a 25 or 30mm.
I'd prefer the 30mm over the 57mm. 30 isn't pretending it's a main battery weapon like 57 is.
I'm there too. 57mm isn't main battery.
I'd take it as a secondary with a 5" main though.
But it appears that if you have the choice larger gun is better. That said, if there's the choice of put on 2x 30mm vs 1x 57mm I'd think long and hard about what my likely target sets were before I took a single gun.
I’ve also seen concept art for Sea Tridon mounted systems on not just destroyers, but also unmanned surface vessels. That would be useful as well.
Call it the Bruno Gaido* defense.
Every carrier should have 15 teams of manned CIWS (probably pilots or air crew): 5 with Javelin, 5 with Stinger missiles, and 5 with .50 cal. These teams should be active for every transit of Strait of Hormuz, Bab al Mandeeb, and Suez Canal.
They should also have portable teams - sent to tankers.
Because if you think Iran has buckled? The Houthis? -- We get paid to thing differently.
*Bruno Gaido was a radio‑gunner for the Douglas SBD Dauntless dive bomber on USS Enterprise. Five Japanese bombers attempted a bombings, and one heavily damaged aircraft was heading straight for the Enterprise. From his open‑deck battle station, Gaido darted across the deck, scrambled into the rear seat of the parked SBD, and manned its .30‑caliber machine guns.
He went below and assumed he was in trouble for his unauthorized action - Bull Halsey had him brought to the bridge and spot promoted him for his actions.
At one point the now DDG 1000 class had 40mm secondary mounts on top of the hangar but the Navy decided to fit the 57mm for commonality with LCS and to avoid introducing another gun system and ammo type into the inventory. I remember also looking at the 30mm mount from the AAAV as an option.
It was going to be 57 mm mounts, but those got replaced with 30 mm.
I must be misremembering on the sequence but the 40mm was on the baseline at one point. The 30mm was fitted to the LPD so it was in the logistics system.
The 30 mm has also been fitted to the LCS, and the latest version of the Mk 38 has been upgraded to that caliber as well.
Like the Browning M2, some weapons systems are just timeless. With the rise and threat of massed drone swarms, those 40mm Bofors look like a better addition to almost any warship's deck. Great writeup and as a recent subscriber I am going to go through your previous posts - Bravo Zulu!
Welcome! You'll have quite a bit of diversion; Sal has been prolific since SailorBob.
And yes, some designs were brilliant to begin with.
sign us up!
add to the mix some modern equivalent of the 20mm oerlikon that doesnt require external electric power (power WILL fail on the ships hit by ordnance - CHENG Murphy ) to function and were talking business...
Only problem is Oerlikon was already only a morale booster by 1944 (though better than a Ma Duece). Probably would look at one of the pedestal mounts for MANPADS.
That was a ships bayonet at close range weapon If a Kamikaze evaded everything else and get wet close.
I think all there is to say is: How fast, how many?
Whatever the answer is, it's probably not enough.
Just last night, just one night, a knew new!
The Ukrainian military said Russia launched 70 missiles and 611 drones. Citing preliminary data, it said air defenses shot down 50 of the missiles and 582 of the drones. (6/14/2026) 📡💥