CDR Sal, agree with your approach. Also that problems can be overcome (as someone said "Needs must when the devil drives"...and he is driving). Asking, because I don't know, the best approach to overcoming the certain lawfare / NIMBY / eccofascist CCP funded legal challenges to this effort. Thoughts?
"Eccofascist and CCP" usually not found nestling together. Not to mention that neither Russia nor China are really communist. More along the lines of a criminal conspiracy than any attempt at an actual communist state. The true danger comes from the front boys they fund who fashion themselves "patriots".
Eminent Domain law has its pirfalls, but govt "taking" property for a public-military purpose usually goes through. Navy needing a shipyard is a far cry from some local town council that wants your corner lot to resell to a fast food joint that will pay more taxes.
At Oak Ridge, Tennessee during WWII, govt agents literally showed up at people's door and announced that they must immediately load their belongings into a waiting truck -- seriously, there was a truck outside, with packing crews -- and depart. There was money on deposit for them at the US Courthouse in Knoxville, and they could contest the amount but not the underlying taking.
When Uncle Sam wants to get something done, he can do it.
The sovereign has always had the ability to take property for his defense. Our constitution never took away that power, we just have to pay fair market value.
They also kicked those folks out of the Smokies to make a national park. The good news here is we shouldn't need to kick people out of their houses to fix the shipyard situation. Several options aside from grabbing back the old navy yards.
I’ve toured Mare Island twice in the 20 teens. Most of the buildings have hazardous materials placards on the entrances of each building.
I have no idea if this is overreach or actual problems.
The history is evident, with street signs and barracks and even the chapel, which is in great condition. Some of the officer’s quarters are in great shape, I believe some are privately owned.
I’m not sure Mare Island can be reclaimed.
I’m wondering about the yard at Hunters Point. Isn’t that in the Bay Area too?
It is not that bad. Especially given the condo development that has taken place. The Rad Lab is a fairly small facility in comparison to the size of the yard. The contamination is minimal and mostly it’s a red herring by activists. Especially given the number of condos now built right up to the lab building.
Have to also think about those docks vs the current size of SSNs and SSBNs. Also depth. Pretty sure they will need to add floats to get the newer ships in and out like Portsmouth. I like this Proceedings article looking at some fresh sites. Except I'd say we need a 5th and 6th and not just a fifth.
USAF depots went from 5 to 3! That is after a reduction of regional depots in the late 1960's.
My least favorite survivor is the Georgia one: Sam Nunn's pecan trees were just down the road. An area of Georgia which Sherman passed by not sending his Bummers" down to "forage"! The Georgians got "work" from San Antonio, they had no facilities to perform!
Look at the WW II era US aircraft factory in Ft Worth making F-35's!
Ogden Utah and Oklahoma City were more worth keeping
Shouldn’t we be able to facilitate quicker shipbuilding now that we have AI? I am surprised Trump hasn’t offered a solution given he has reopened Irvin Works- Go Steelers!
There are a few companies fronting they can do that, but I'd like to show we can do anything first. We could consider landing ship production back at Neville Island if the steel can arrive locally. Again, so much of this involves tearing up highly contaminated ground unless we work on building new land level facilities over top of it all.
I worked at the Naval Shipyard HQ element at NAVSEA in the ‘90s and ran many of the costing scenarios for the BRAC staff.
At least our part of the Navy knew the capacity we were losing and tried to warn others of the long-term impacts. Now we see that SSN depot maintenance is months (years?) behind schedule partially due to…lack of drydocks!!
Someone questioned whether Hunters Point NSY could be returned to service. I saw a briefing back in the ‘90s with pictures of the advanced state of decay at HPNSY then so I’m sure it’s only gotten worse.
Perhaps building floating dry docks is the fastest way to recapture some of this capacity. This also aligns with your post the other day about the vulnerability of fixed bases in the age of drone swarms launched from mobile platforms.
Those two can easily be moved up to Mare Island or, Richmond as their respective dry-docks need some modernizing. The larger of the two wasn't too long ago didn't annual maintenance work on West coast based cruise ships.
Concur. Most of the abandoned bases would take too long to clean up and aren’t well suited to today’s techniques. Take back Quonset. GD builds Virginia sections there so there is some talent in the area. Triple logistics win of airport, rail terminal and port. Fast access to deep water. New London is less than an hour drive (some presence nearby). Have them bootstrap themselves by building a floating dry dock or three while you build out a modern repair facility. Relocate some assets from Norfolk to help disperse the fleet.
After kicking around Narraganset Bay, it is obvious that we should bring ships back to Newport. But, "taking back" Quonset NAS? The Electric Boat folks are some of the only people building the ships we need. Were we to take it back, where would we build Virginia hulls?
Frankly, I would look to Philadelphia. We built ships there before, why not build them there again? Big cities give us access to (dare I say it) a diverse workforce; diverse in the sense that all the trades necessary to build ships are available in a way that tiny cities like Providence can't match. Bringing jobs to a Democratic stronghold is an effective way to get the votes needed to authorize the kind of capital expense reopening our yards requires.
We know how to build the Arleigh Burke. Let's build Burkes in government yards. After a few hulls, we will have restored shipbuilding expertise to NAVSEA.
Last year, Battleship New Jersey spent a couple of months in drydock at Philadelphia, almost all of it for exterior hull work. The shipyard bones are there, in a manner of speaking, but not nearly what they used to be. Much of the old industrial capacity is just gone... Nowhere to be seen. Meanwhile, there's quite a bit of work taking place today, via private cos.
Quonset would be a good option. Piers and all are still there. We used to cruise by there on the YP's at SWOS. There are C-130's still based at the airfield there too. Either AF Reserve or Aire National Guard.
I'm inclined to let Hanwa buy up the rest there and grow their operation so we have capacity for large commercial ships for build of of logistics, pre-positioning force, etc.
Not suggesting disrupting EB for either space or people. I doubt anyone at EB is looking to move into the public sector but you’re right, we’d need to make sure we wouldn’t be canibalizing sub production. I’d take the northeast corner that’s used as a car unloading zone. Plenty of space. Your point about Philly is on the mark about more people and so a better chance of finding what we need. But, we’re going to run into a lack of people with the skill sets we need no matter where we start out. It’s going to be a matter of money. Probably need to relocate some people from the existing yards to jumpstart a new yard anyway.
From a political standpoint, Quonset would draw workers from RI and MA. Doesn’t get anymore blue than that.
Not really necessary to build Burkes in NSYs, Ingalls has spare capacity now that the Coastie's National Security Cutter (Bertholf class) program is wrapping up. Hanwha Philly is only one of three yards now building ocean going merchants for the Jones Act trade (there was a fourth in Brownsville, TX, but there only built two so far). But...BUT...what's not being used (much) is the site of the old New York Naval Shipyard (aka Brooklyn Navy Yard). There's also space on the Philly waterfront at the location of the old Cramp Shipyard for at least a repair facility with floating docks.
There is no Long Beach Naval shipyard. The buildings were all razed, the dry docks were razed and the entire area is a giant concrete pad, one of the busiest container terminals in the world. You can only tell that it was a shipyard if you have old air photos. Hunters Point at least exists. Or Eminent Domain and EPA waiver the south or SE end of San Diego Bay and build on the swamp.
HPNSY as noted being a Superfund site, had much of its area paved over in a foot of asphalt to prevent the contaminated dirt & soil from blowing around. Then there's the issue of infrastructure, there is none. The remaining buildings have been unoccupied and abandoned mostly since the 80's, the piers and graving dock would all need major modernizing. At the very least, it's a veritable blank canvas on a massive piece of property similar to Sparrows Point in Baltimore.
Hunter's Point is a Superfund site. They've been trying to clean it up for years and keep finding more issues, including radioactive contamination.
I don't think the Navy wants to build there again, since anything inadvertently missed during the current remediation will become the Navy's issue to resolve.
I really have a distain for those who repeatedly say we can’t restore or rebuild anything. As someone who has worked on infrastructure you should see what we have restored in the private sector. It’s a lack of engineering & building experience that causes pencil pushers to over estimate things. Several years ago took over a start up. There was a major profit center where they had only completed 55% of the project due to poor skill set by those they had overestimated their skill set. I spent 3 quarters hunting for anyone out of the 1,300 employees that say what I say & found none. Finally grabbed 4 of the less experienced engineers but who had a can do attitude took them to the project and in 5 hours mapped out the execution plan and set them free. When done had a major all hands where reviewed every project plan & budget that had been presented over 2-1/2 years. They all had the same conclusion that there was a hesitation & overestimating due to no one having confidence in their skills and abilities. Yet a small team completed the project in under 3 weeks at 2,600% below the average prior project plans presented. Over the 2-1/2 years the company missed out in over $9.8M in net profits.
No better time than today. No better time than can do experienced execution teams to be set free with a proper mission motive.
There's no way HPNSY can be returned to being a shipyard, besides the toxicity issues of the surrounding soil, the buildings and infrastructure is too old and decrepit; it would require an insane level of capitol investments. Some of the piers could be reinforced to handle a floating dry dock but, around the SF Bay Area, Richmond and Mare Island would be the better option, at the very least it'd be easier for the workers to get to work. Even a place like Long Beach was taken apart, paved-over and filled-in to become a container terminal.
Agree on Mare Island and Charleston. Last time I visited Long Beach the former NAVSTA was completely obliterated, replaced by a container terminal. If the shipyard survived then yes, reclaim it also.
Peace dividend never included the cost of recovering what was lost and the wacko promoters of it were never properly confronted over their 'prescience' that recovery would never be needed.
So now we need the recovery of property owned or coveted by others plus the recovery of our credibility.
Much of BRAC was a real estate giveaway to politically connected entities... local govts, real estate developers, political people w more pull than brains. I remember it well... Spent time at Philadelphia & Mare Island in the olden days. Sure, they had issues like... everything from labor unions to old stuff that broke down all the time. But when the time came, the workforce rolled up their sleeves and got things done.
The former Brookley AFB. There are MSC ships right there adjacent to the complex. Airbus is building A320's there. That is where they were going to build the A330 based tankers too. Maybe Austal can start building some useful ships that are actually combatants.
Maybe NAS Sanford could be brought back too?
What about NS Pascagoula and the whole mine warfare debacle in Ingleside, TX?
Pascagoula is just sitting there empty (I grew up an hour from there). No reason why it couldn't be taken back over again. Mobile's former naval station is now part of the port at the Theodore Ship Channel (my cousin and I used to catch huge speckled trout at the mouth of that canal) and would likely be tougher to transition back to Haze Gray.
As for Charleston, the Coast Guard has turned Pier Papa into its largest east coast base. Taking that place back over would be excellent for the local economy. I think the shipyard there is in private hands.
We need more government shipyards, but I agree with others that getting kids out of their phones and tablets to work with their hands in often awful conditions likely doesn't appeal to this soft generation raised by women. No matter what it pays.
And who'll train them? Most of the old shipfitters are either retired or dead. We just threw away vital national assets to pad the pockets of the politically connected and to please stupid NIMBYs who hate icky industry near their fancy homes.
Cdr, I was stationed at Naval Station Charleston when BRAC came through and interviewed us. One comment they made is the lack of clearance for the big ships. I had been stationed on USS Canopus AS-34 both at the Naval Weapons Station and post yard period transits. I was a Sea and Anchor OOD and each time we transited our CO looked up every time we went under it sometimes joking are we going to make it? The new bridge was opened in 2005 and is higher than the old one which should allow larger ships to transit. Also missed are the facilities at the shipyard and SIMA. We need more facilities as you have noted and available in a quicker fashion and reopening them in a quicker fashion. But I go back to your article about funding. I am not sure they have the funding and/or ability to get off their rears and do it. The longer we wait the more time our enemies have to build and pass us in numbers. I am not sure they have the same capabilities but sometimes numbers are important. Along with the lack of shipyards are the tenders and other repair vessels. Having mobile assets will help take repairs to combat ships and not make them limp back to the States for help. I served 1968 to 1993 and spent time on multiple sub tenders we were able to fix most issues and if not then we had ARDM's around to get them out of the water to do the most extensive repairs. I also understand and hope that someone would be looking at the security support that would be needed during transits. A tender does not have many offensive capabilities.
Amen. This re-industrialization plan for America's shipyards is a national imperative as much as a job creation plan for America's disenfranchised youth.
Under the "will this happen" question. I can say from recent personal experience that DOGE efforts are focusing on a BRAC 2.0 to eliminate additional "waste" by reducing redundancy in bases and functions.
That is always a good argument, to which the classic "two is one, and one is none" only carries so much weight. Ultimately, we are free to advocate for a different position, but society gets to decide how it wants to allocate its resources.
While there is a lot of chit chat, I do not see the political will to move CONUS and OCONUS basing back to a "threat posture" that accepts economic inefficiency to create operational redundancy.
To be fair, it's not as if we made this choice during the Cold War. After the end of WWII, we had lots, and lots, and lots of bases. So it was a matter of trimming back "an embarrassment of facilities" to the number needed for the Cold War.
What some are now arguing for is a much heavier lift - building up, instead of merely paring down and lacking a genuine existential threat that is understood and believed by the American electorate, good luck with the building up. Good luck with that in the current and likely fiscal environment over the following years. "We've run out of money, and now it's time to think."
This is generally my assessment as well. I do not see evidence of the kind of movement that will be needed to open/reopen even one public yard, let alone 3 or 4. Given where we are politically, I think we will see significant investment in private yards long before we see a new/used public yard.
Even if there was the kind of movement and investment needed for opening more public yards, I fear the resulting process would make California’s HSR look like a model of efficient program management!
Smaller, un-manned or lightly manned ships and subs in greater numbers seems to be the way to go. Right now, we're building targets rather than attack platforms.
As a member of the "Class of the 1980s"... USN had many more ships back then, of course. Some new; many old and even older. Heck, we had ships in 80s that were constructed during WWII. And somehow... Broken things got fixed. Supply system worked. Many people had extensive skillsets and could re-manufacture parts. The old Destroyer & Sub Tenders were marvels of industry afloat... Almost anything not-nuclear could be rebuilt... (and sometimes, in a pinch with the nukes? No further comment on that point.) Plus, USN had extensive overseas capabilities... Many a ship CO & crew loved their time in Japan, where a disciplined company of guys in matching coveralls and hardhats stood at attention by the pier as the vessel tied up, and literally jogged onboard to fix stuff. So yes... We had some good old days in those Good Old Days.
That’s another problem: we are down to just 2 sub tenders. No others in sight. No AR repair ships in sight. Floating dry docks are great but they are not enough.
Scary thought... USN is so far removed from designing-buying-building "tenders" that if you went to the Congress committees that control policy & funding for such things, the staff & politicians might not know what you're talking about. "Tenders? Like at Chic Fil-A?" They'd send the request over to the Agriculture Committee.
This is why we need a draft & compulsory service. Then those who are elected & vote would understand the nuts & bolts of what a world class military needs. Instead we get lessers that are enamored by Flag Officers in camo & with high tech transformation morons who have zero understanding and what Land\Air took.
CDR Sal, agree with your approach. Also that problems can be overcome (as someone said "Needs must when the devil drives"...and he is driving). Asking, because I don't know, the best approach to overcoming the certain lawfare / NIMBY / eccofascist CCP funded legal challenges to this effort. Thoughts?
Hang the people filing them as enemy agents?
"Eccofascist and CCP" usually not found nestling together. Not to mention that neither Russia nor China are really communist. More along the lines of a criminal conspiracy than any attempt at an actual communist state. The true danger comes from the front boys they fund who fashion themselves "patriots".
If there is a judge involved then there is a barrier.
Eminent Domain law has its pirfalls, but govt "taking" property for a public-military purpose usually goes through. Navy needing a shipyard is a far cry from some local town council that wants your corner lot to resell to a fast food joint that will pay more taxes.
At Oak Ridge, Tennessee during WWII, govt agents literally showed up at people's door and announced that they must immediately load their belongings into a waiting truck -- seriously, there was a truck outside, with packing crews -- and depart. There was money on deposit for them at the US Courthouse in Knoxville, and they could contest the amount but not the underlying taking.
When Uncle Sam wants to get something done, he can do it.
The sovereign has always had the ability to take property for his defense. Our constitution never took away that power, we just have to pay fair market value.
They also kicked those folks out of the Smokies to make a national park. The good news here is we shouldn't need to kick people out of their houses to fix the shipyard situation. Several options aside from grabbing back the old navy yards.
I’ve toured Mare Island twice in the 20 teens. Most of the buildings have hazardous materials placards on the entrances of each building.
I have no idea if this is overreach or actual problems.
The history is evident, with street signs and barracks and even the chapel, which is in great condition. Some of the officer’s quarters are in great shape, I believe some are privately owned.
I’m not sure Mare Island can be reclaimed.
I’m wondering about the yard at Hunters Point. Isn’t that in the Bay Area too?
Hunter's Point is a Superfund site due to ridiculous amounts of hazmat, including radioactive contamination.
Wow. Wouldn’t want to work there.
Tru dat!
Betting there is more than a little "Green" hyperbole attached to those doomsday proclamations.
They hosed down test bravo ships there. Among other issues.
It is not that bad. Especially given the condo development that has taken place. The Rad Lab is a fairly small facility in comparison to the size of the yard. The contamination is minimal and mostly it’s a red herring by activists. Especially given the number of condos now built right up to the lab building.
Have to also think about those docks vs the current size of SSNs and SSBNs. Also depth. Pretty sure they will need to add floats to get the newer ships in and out like Portsmouth. I like this Proceedings article looking at some fresh sites. Except I'd say we need a 5th and 6th and not just a fifth.
https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2024/september/case-fifth-naval-shipyard
They're using floating rigs at Pearl as well. It looks like the biggest things that can get over the sill without help are 688s.
The "HAZMAT" placards may be ways to keep 'urban explorers' out, as well as some bums.
BRAC!
USAF depots went from 5 to 3! That is after a reduction of regional depots in the late 1960's.
My least favorite survivor is the Georgia one: Sam Nunn's pecan trees were just down the road. An area of Georgia which Sherman passed by not sending his Bummers" down to "forage"! The Georgians got "work" from San Antonio, they had no facilities to perform!
Look at the WW II era US aircraft factory in Ft Worth making F-35's!
Ogden Utah and Oklahoma City were more worth keeping
2038? Too late—by at least 3 years.
As I've commented before, the war will arrive NLT 2035, and I'd be willing to bet my 401(k) that it's closer to 2025 than 2035.
Shouldn’t we be able to facilitate quicker shipbuilding now that we have AI? I am surprised Trump hasn’t offered a solution given he has reopened Irvin Works- Go Steelers!
There are a few companies fronting they can do that, but I'd like to show we can do anything first. We could consider landing ship production back at Neville Island if the steel can arrive locally. Again, so much of this involves tearing up highly contaminated ground unless we work on building new land level facilities over top of it all.
Sure those AI enabled welders & shipwrights are doing great job.
AI actually gets the “design” end done much more quickly, so the actual “building/manufacturing” can get started way sooner than it has in the past.
From Friday. HII deserves an earful for this:
https://www.pilotonline.com/2025/05/30/471-employees-furloughed/?lctg=65D33473847824F1852255D225&utm_email=65D33473847824F1852255D225&active=no&utm_source=listrak&utm_medium=email&utm_term=https%3a%2f%2fwww.pilotonline.com%2f2025%2f05%2f30%2f471-employees-furloughed%2f&utm_campaign=trib-virginian_pilot-breaking_news-nl&utm_content=Alerts
I worked at the Naval Shipyard HQ element at NAVSEA in the ‘90s and ran many of the costing scenarios for the BRAC staff.
At least our part of the Navy knew the capacity we were losing and tried to warn others of the long-term impacts. Now we see that SSN depot maintenance is months (years?) behind schedule partially due to…lack of drydocks!!
Someone questioned whether Hunters Point NSY could be returned to service. I saw a briefing back in the ‘90s with pictures of the advanced state of decay at HPNSY then so I’m sure it’s only gotten worse.
Perhaps building floating dry docks is the fastest way to recapture some of this capacity. This also aligns with your post the other day about the vulnerability of fixed bases in the age of drone swarms launched from mobile platforms.
We should be building floating drydocks anyway. Chicago Bridge & Iron still exists but safe to say she hasn't built anything like this since 1942.
The Enormous USS ABSD-1: A Wartime Engineering Marvel
https://southpacificwwiimuseum.com/absd-1/
USS ABSD-1 was an amazing ship. Thanks for sharing. It's amazing what we could accomplish back then.
The old BAE ones in San Francisco still exist. They need a LOT of work, but tow them to a yard.
Those two can easily be moved up to Mare Island or, Richmond as their respective dry-docks need some modernizing. The larger of the two wasn't too long ago didn't annual maintenance work on West coast based cruise ships.
God bless the USA.
Concur. Most of the abandoned bases would take too long to clean up and aren’t well suited to today’s techniques. Take back Quonset. GD builds Virginia sections there so there is some talent in the area. Triple logistics win of airport, rail terminal and port. Fast access to deep water. New London is less than an hour drive (some presence nearby). Have them bootstrap themselves by building a floating dry dock or three while you build out a modern repair facility. Relocate some assets from Norfolk to help disperse the fleet.
Not, gonna happen….
After kicking around Narraganset Bay, it is obvious that we should bring ships back to Newport. But, "taking back" Quonset NAS? The Electric Boat folks are some of the only people building the ships we need. Were we to take it back, where would we build Virginia hulls?
Frankly, I would look to Philadelphia. We built ships there before, why not build them there again? Big cities give us access to (dare I say it) a diverse workforce; diverse in the sense that all the trades necessary to build ships are available in a way that tiny cities like Providence can't match. Bringing jobs to a Democratic stronghold is an effective way to get the votes needed to authorize the kind of capital expense reopening our yards requires.
We know how to build the Arleigh Burke. Let's build Burkes in government yards. After a few hulls, we will have restored shipbuilding expertise to NAVSEA.
Last year, Battleship New Jersey spent a couple of months in drydock at Philadelphia, almost all of it for exterior hull work. The shipyard bones are there, in a manner of speaking, but not nearly what they used to be. Much of the old industrial capacity is just gone... Nowhere to be seen. Meanwhile, there's quite a bit of work taking place today, via private cos.
What we lost in closing the yards was the humans. Docks and cranes are easier to build than training shipfitters and welders.
Quonset would be a good option. Piers and all are still there. We used to cruise by there on the YP's at SWOS. There are C-130's still based at the airfield there too. Either AF Reserve or Aire National Guard.
Quonset is where EB builds submarine hull sections, which are then hauled over to Groton by barge.
I'm inclined to let Hanwa buy up the rest there and grow their operation so we have capacity for large commercial ships for build of of logistics, pre-positioning force, etc.
Not suggesting disrupting EB for either space or people. I doubt anyone at EB is looking to move into the public sector but you’re right, we’d need to make sure we wouldn’t be canibalizing sub production. I’d take the northeast corner that’s used as a car unloading zone. Plenty of space. Your point about Philly is on the mark about more people and so a better chance of finding what we need. But, we’re going to run into a lack of people with the skill sets we need no matter where we start out. It’s going to be a matter of money. Probably need to relocate some people from the existing yards to jumpstart a new yard anyway.
From a political standpoint, Quonset would draw workers from RI and MA. Doesn’t get anymore blue than that.
In the end I’d take either. Just get on with it.
Not really necessary to build Burkes in NSYs, Ingalls has spare capacity now that the Coastie's National Security Cutter (Bertholf class) program is wrapping up. Hanwha Philly is only one of three yards now building ocean going merchants for the Jones Act trade (there was a fourth in Brownsville, TX, but there only built two so far). But...BUT...what's not being used (much) is the site of the old New York Naval Shipyard (aka Brooklyn Navy Yard). There's also space on the Philly waterfront at the location of the old Cramp Shipyard for at least a repair facility with floating docks.
Then there’s the problem of finding sufficient, skilled tradespeople.
We really have maneuvered ourselves into a really difficult situation.
Indeed! We look down on trade schools, but they really are a national security need.
EB needs Quonset to build submarines. Taking that back would completely *stop* submarine construction in this country for a considerable time.
There is no Long Beach Naval shipyard. The buildings were all razed, the dry docks were razed and the entire area is a giant concrete pad, one of the busiest container terminals in the world. You can only tell that it was a shipyard if you have old air photos. Hunters Point at least exists. Or Eminent Domain and EPA waiver the south or SE end of San Diego Bay and build on the swamp.
Perfect no need to pour new concrete. Easy to build the assembly building right on top.
HPNSY as noted being a Superfund site, had much of its area paved over in a foot of asphalt to prevent the contaminated dirt & soil from blowing around. Then there's the issue of infrastructure, there is none. The remaining buildings have been unoccupied and abandoned mostly since the 80's, the piers and graving dock would all need major modernizing. At the very least, it's a veritable blank canvas on a massive piece of property similar to Sparrows Point in Baltimore.
Hunter's Point is a Superfund site. They've been trying to clean it up for years and keep finding more issues, including radioactive contamination.
I don't think the Navy wants to build there again, since anything inadvertently missed during the current remediation will become the Navy's issue to resolve.
My experience with Superfund sites is they are an excuse for full employment of Environmental consultants & grifters.
I really have a distain for those who repeatedly say we can’t restore or rebuild anything. As someone who has worked on infrastructure you should see what we have restored in the private sector. It’s a lack of engineering & building experience that causes pencil pushers to over estimate things. Several years ago took over a start up. There was a major profit center where they had only completed 55% of the project due to poor skill set by those they had overestimated their skill set. I spent 3 quarters hunting for anyone out of the 1,300 employees that say what I say & found none. Finally grabbed 4 of the less experienced engineers but who had a can do attitude took them to the project and in 5 hours mapped out the execution plan and set them free. When done had a major all hands where reviewed every project plan & budget that had been presented over 2-1/2 years. They all had the same conclusion that there was a hesitation & overestimating due to no one having confidence in their skills and abilities. Yet a small team completed the project in under 3 weeks at 2,600% below the average prior project plans presented. Over the 2-1/2 years the company missed out in over $9.8M in net profits.
No better time than today. No better time than can do experienced execution teams to be set free with a proper mission motive.
There's no way HPNSY can be returned to being a shipyard, besides the toxicity issues of the surrounding soil, the buildings and infrastructure is too old and decrepit; it would require an insane level of capitol investments. Some of the piers could be reinforced to handle a floating dry dock but, around the SF Bay Area, Richmond and Mare Island would be the better option, at the very least it'd be easier for the workers to get to work. Even a place like Long Beach was taken apart, paved-over and filled-in to become a container terminal.
Agree on Mare Island and Charleston. Last time I visited Long Beach the former NAVSTA was completely obliterated, replaced by a container terminal. If the shipyard survived then yes, reclaim it also.
Good plan.
Peace dividend never included the cost of recovering what was lost and the wacko promoters of it were never properly confronted over their 'prescience' that recovery would never be needed.
So now we need the recovery of property owned or coveted by others plus the recovery of our credibility.
Much of BRAC was a real estate giveaway to politically connected entities... local govts, real estate developers, political people w more pull than brains. I remember it well... Spent time at Philadelphia & Mare Island in the olden days. Sure, they had issues like... everything from labor unions to old stuff that broke down all the time. But when the time came, the workforce rolled up their sleeves and got things done.
Nailed it.
Maybe also consider a reactivation of the old joint base at Mobile, where road, rail, maritime shipping, and very long runways were all co-located.
John in Indy
The former Brookley AFB. There are MSC ships right there adjacent to the complex. Airbus is building A320's there. That is where they were going to build the A330 based tankers too. Maybe Austal can start building some useful ships that are actually combatants.
Maybe NAS Sanford could be brought back too?
What about NS Pascagoula and the whole mine warfare debacle in Ingleside, TX?
Pascagoula is just sitting there empty (I grew up an hour from there). No reason why it couldn't be taken back over again. Mobile's former naval station is now part of the port at the Theodore Ship Channel (my cousin and I used to catch huge speckled trout at the mouth of that canal) and would likely be tougher to transition back to Haze Gray.
As for Charleston, the Coast Guard has turned Pier Papa into its largest east coast base. Taking that place back over would be excellent for the local economy. I think the shipyard there is in private hands.
We need more government shipyards, but I agree with others that getting kids out of their phones and tablets to work with their hands in often awful conditions likely doesn't appeal to this soft generation raised by women. No matter what it pays.
And who'll train them? Most of the old shipfitters are either retired or dead. We just threw away vital national assets to pad the pockets of the politically connected and to please stupid NIMBYs who hate icky industry near their fancy homes.
Cdr, I was stationed at Naval Station Charleston when BRAC came through and interviewed us. One comment they made is the lack of clearance for the big ships. I had been stationed on USS Canopus AS-34 both at the Naval Weapons Station and post yard period transits. I was a Sea and Anchor OOD and each time we transited our CO looked up every time we went under it sometimes joking are we going to make it? The new bridge was opened in 2005 and is higher than the old one which should allow larger ships to transit. Also missed are the facilities at the shipyard and SIMA. We need more facilities as you have noted and available in a quicker fashion and reopening them in a quicker fashion. But I go back to your article about funding. I am not sure they have the funding and/or ability to get off their rears and do it. The longer we wait the more time our enemies have to build and pass us in numbers. I am not sure they have the same capabilities but sometimes numbers are important. Along with the lack of shipyards are the tenders and other repair vessels. Having mobile assets will help take repairs to combat ships and not make them limp back to the States for help. I served 1968 to 1993 and spent time on multiple sub tenders we were able to fix most issues and if not then we had ARDM's around to get them out of the water to do the most extensive repairs. I also understand and hope that someone would be looking at the security support that would be needed during transits. A tender does not have many offensive capabilities.
Yep. This is the way. The only way.
Amen. This re-industrialization plan for America's shipyards is a national imperative as much as a job creation plan for America's disenfranchised youth.
Under the "will this happen" question. I can say from recent personal experience that DOGE efforts are focusing on a BRAC 2.0 to eliminate additional "waste" by reducing redundancy in bases and functions.
That is always a good argument, to which the classic "two is one, and one is none" only carries so much weight. Ultimately, we are free to advocate for a different position, but society gets to decide how it wants to allocate its resources.
While there is a lot of chit chat, I do not see the political will to move CONUS and OCONUS basing back to a "threat posture" that accepts economic inefficiency to create operational redundancy.
To be fair, it's not as if we made this choice during the Cold War. After the end of WWII, we had lots, and lots, and lots of bases. So it was a matter of trimming back "an embarrassment of facilities" to the number needed for the Cold War.
What some are now arguing for is a much heavier lift - building up, instead of merely paring down and lacking a genuine existential threat that is understood and believed by the American electorate, good luck with the building up. Good luck with that in the current and likely fiscal environment over the following years. "We've run out of money, and now it's time to think."
This is generally my assessment as well. I do not see evidence of the kind of movement that will be needed to open/reopen even one public yard, let alone 3 or 4. Given where we are politically, I think we will see significant investment in private yards long before we see a new/used public yard.
Even if there was the kind of movement and investment needed for opening more public yards, I fear the resulting process would make California’s HSR look like a model of efficient program management!
This choice DID begin during the Cold War. It was Robert McNamara who stopped nuclear submarine construction at the naval shipyards.
Smaller, un-manned or lightly manned ships and subs in greater numbers seems to be the way to go. Right now, we're building targets rather than attack platforms.
Agree, mostly. I do have a question for those who have experience in such:
Were the 8 shipyards of the CW era sufficient for the task at hand? How about the current threat?
As a member of the "Class of the 1980s"... USN had many more ships back then, of course. Some new; many old and even older. Heck, we had ships in 80s that were constructed during WWII. And somehow... Broken things got fixed. Supply system worked. Many people had extensive skillsets and could re-manufacture parts. The old Destroyer & Sub Tenders were marvels of industry afloat... Almost anything not-nuclear could be rebuilt... (and sometimes, in a pinch with the nukes? No further comment on that point.) Plus, USN had extensive overseas capabilities... Many a ship CO & crew loved their time in Japan, where a disciplined company of guys in matching coveralls and hardhats stood at attention by the pier as the vessel tied up, and literally jogged onboard to fix stuff. So yes... We had some good old days in those Good Old Days.
That’s another problem: we are down to just 2 sub tenders. No others in sight. No AR repair ships in sight. Floating dry docks are great but they are not enough.
Scary thought... USN is so far removed from designing-buying-building "tenders" that if you went to the Congress committees that control policy & funding for such things, the staff & politicians might not know what you're talking about. "Tenders? Like at Chic Fil-A?" They'd send the request over to the Agriculture Committee.
This is why we need a draft & compulsory service. Then those who are elected & vote would understand the nuts & bolts of what a world class military needs. Instead we get lessers that are enamored by Flag Officers in camo & with high tech transformation morons who have zero understanding and what Land\Air took.
Put a shipyard in New Orleans.
Avondale
Indeed - the GNO!