While mine laying might be a future role for LCS in undisputed sea lanes, it’s difficult to believe its pathetic air defense capability would allow it to survive for long enough to dispense many mines. Submarine minelayers would probably be a safer bet. No discussion of mine laying is complete without taking about mine clearing which is by far the more difficult job.
I think the trick with subs is volume and speed. Advantage being you can wreak havoc closer to the enemy under their own umbrella. Mining with aircraft has speed and can have volume, but generally the enemy will know it happened. If doing surface mining exposed why not drop them from EPFs and up arm the LCS to defend them.
Are the 4 converted Ohios still in service. They seem to be. Take the cruise missiles out (which are redundant with other platforms) and there will be lots of room for mines. Someone else will have to opine on how to deploy them. As the Columbias start to come on line in 2030, more Ohios will be available for conversion.
As I recall during mine laying ops they remove most of the torpedoes and replace them with mines at a 2 mines per torpedo ratio. I’m not really up to date on what they do now or even what mines are in the USN inventory. One thing to remember about mine warfare, it’s not the number of mines that are laid, it’s the fear of mines that matters and to achieve that level of fear it only takes one mine to hit one ship.
The more-focused mine clearance capability of the Avenger Class will be missed as the LCS mine clearance capability comes up to speed (hopefully) But, minelaying from surface ships was only a theory for most of my 32 years. We had a yard and stay launch capability for CAPTOR that was pretty clunky. I had a good look at the ROKN minelayer and the JMSDF as well...and they were pretty sexy. (their mines, not so much). So LCS as a mine layer is interesting and as stated, they have capacity. Hostile counter-fire will be challenging to say the least. Especially in areas where mining would be most effective. Even high-volume USAF mine delivery is a challenge. We used to say only the sun appeared brighter than a B-52 turning toward the near-shore target area.
Will the LCS, repurposed and dragooned into a new mission, become the DMS of the 21st century? At the very least, this could create a rich opportunity for a reboot of “The Caine Mutiny.”
Curtis LeMay was miffed at having to diver B-29s to mining operations. Later he admitted begrudgingly that those B-29s mining missions really paid off.
Bravo on the movie. Pretty good. Mines seem like they are Navy 101. They sunk hundreds of Japanese cargo ships. (I think I got that from you CDR.) More mines, faster. Will Taiwan or the US Navy have time to lay significant numbers of mines while under attack by missiles?
Lots of Warfighting 101 has been lost over the years. The "Smartest People in the Room" find graduate-level Special Topics in Warfighting much more intellectually stimulating. This is not helped by Congressional staffers, thesis advisers, and editorial review panels equally favoring arcane topics over 101's.
Seems like homeporting the LCS in Japan and the Philippines would be a good start. Frequently transiting the East and South China seas would get the crews familiar with the area.
A surface deployed mine seems like something might have a design for, like one over 100 years old. These are not high-tech, heck they don't even need any electronics.
Pretty expensive “truck” that this coffin with a jet ski propulsion is turning into, I’d think some unmanned (disposable) barges with a well deck could perform just as well. Finding work for a bad idea is likely an even badder idea, IMHO.
You go with the truck you have not the one you want. If you think the current Defense vendors are capable of selling the Navy cheap, disposable barges then I suggest you take a look at the contract Halter, now Bollinger, got for a half dozen Auxiliary Personnel Lighters (berthing barges). There are barge yards on the Mississippi that would love to get this kind of money thrown at them.
Yes, you take what you have, however 1/10th of a trillion dollars would buy a but-ton more capability than what could likely be taken out with a 50k$ drone. Just saying
Lcs has the ability to be a drone mothership and is supposed to send remote gear to fight the enemy. Do that. Design a small, cheap, one purpose, vtol, minelaying UAV. Then equip each ship with many of them. You could do the same with usvs. Now it won’t matter if they track the route of the lcs. One idea of many for lcs doing better sea denial.
And Taiwan could do all of that. Drone swarms arising from the island, skimming the waves and dropping the mines where needed. No ships or subs sunk. No manned aircraft downed.
SMWDC was looking at the blockers, or at least their target detection system, at one point, but I don't know what came of it. The Cube system is definitely compatible with the blocker mines, as the company that manufactures them (FORCIT) was involved in developing the CUBE mine laying system.
Foreign mine purchases can be difficult as they are almost always developed for their littoral waters. That said, sensor tech is a good way to upgrade ours if needed and could possibly be easier to get foreign purchase monies...
Whether laying mines in the SCS or ramming some Chinese port facility, bridge or scuttling at the harbor mouth, I think that any LCS mission in the SCS should be considered a one way ticket...
The other half of the article was about how to up the potential of the platform to stow and fire more NSMs. Rather than just laying the NSMs out in the mission bay, we could design a TEU sized portable magazine and stow 4 in the container for a smidge more safety. Now integrate the missile on MH60-R/S and the CUSV (or derivative). The weapon module zones badly need a real small, versatile VLS. Start with JAGM, Hellfire, Spike NLOS, and get serious about a SAM/AIM to fit a system like that. Given the current module that wastes half the space can carry 24 I am guessing 48 cells is doable, per module. 144 cells if you use all 3 boxes.
China is building “Floating” the solid surface - guided to your LCS…
I’m not aware of anyone else … we did in the Middle East… then it was bombed… then we took it down…
CDR Salamander,
What if these solid surfaces were folded or rolled… stowed…
What if the flotation devices were also stowed…
The little Boat to guide-stabilize such a “Transformer” while “Cube” received the “Product”.
Can we please not think “Mines”, too nerve wracking, for me…
Open Sea Lanes…
Let’s not close a Sea Lane, please.
Let’s do watch China…
My theory is that if China can aim Lasers skyward…
China can aim Lasers subsurface…
How do we protect our LCS from a sub surface Laser Beam - Kaboom?
Same idea as the seismographic plate shift … purposefully done subsurface..
NOAA am I correct, that it can be done?
If so, CDR Salamander, your little Cube can work subsurface to be the platform from which said Laser is guided?
Do we have detection devices for Laser?
My new “Toy” is a Dyson Morph Light. Should arrive in 10 Business Days.
I’ll pretend this Morph Light can work like a “Laser”… Be safe! Nurse Jane lights the way in any direction now with “Morph Light Laser”. All Patented and Copyright to Simple Elegance by JAS. thank you!
I admire the minelayer's courage after spotting the German, but a gun duel seems...crazy. Maybe run away or, if armed with torpedoes, turn toward and get in a shot. "Hold her steady" on course also seems nuts. Still, I do like looking at Russian war pics now and then.
We can stop buying from or selling anything to China. That’s the most effective way to close the sea lanes.
but still sink their boats and close their ports too
While mine laying might be a future role for LCS in undisputed sea lanes, it’s difficult to believe its pathetic air defense capability would allow it to survive for long enough to dispense many mines. Submarine minelayers would probably be a safer bet. No discussion of mine laying is complete without taking about mine clearing which is by far the more difficult job.
I think the trick with subs is volume and speed. Advantage being you can wreak havoc closer to the enemy under their own umbrella. Mining with aircraft has speed and can have volume, but generally the enemy will know it happened. If doing surface mining exposed why not drop them from EPFs and up arm the LCS to defend them.
Are the 4 converted Ohios still in service. They seem to be. Take the cruise missiles out (which are redundant with other platforms) and there will be lots of room for mines. Someone else will have to opine on how to deploy them. As the Columbias start to come on line in 2030, more Ohios will be available for conversion.
The ohios will be all out of fuel and dive cycles by the time we have columbia. If we are lucky.
Up-arming LCS, have you ever been on an LCS? A moratorium on spending another nickel on these things should put in place.
Yeah, open pallet for ideas, literally. The real loss is no follow through.
Slap a couple additional SeaRAM launchers on them.
You'd have to take a lot of other stuff off. Those things are not lightweight.
The best time would be shortly before hostilities start. Then you pull them back and reconvert to mine sweeping, because we'll need that too.
Add air defense? That’s how we ended up here, modifications. They can use a Perry Class … wait, what?
I'm just happy the LCS we have are taking a detour between christening and the breakers.
MIne clearing??! We've got mine laying out of that SINKEX-class ship. Baby steps, eh?
Submarines can lay mines, but not many. There isn't much room in the Torpedo Room and part of that must be used for MK 48s.
As I recall during mine laying ops they remove most of the torpedoes and replace them with mines at a 2 mines per torpedo ratio. I’m not really up to date on what they do now or even what mines are in the USN inventory. One thing to remember about mine warfare, it’s not the number of mines that are laid, it’s the fear of mines that matters and to achieve that level of fear it only takes one mine to hit one ship.
Great Movie “Admiral”!
May I ask you “Why do you persist with Taiwan?”
1. Recent news reads that Taiwan will not permit more than 50% of its chip-manufacturing to occur in USA!
2. Recent news still reads Taiwan belongs to China!
A. I whole heartedly agree with you based on my read of “Mountbatten”, mine-warfare is deadly!
B. Blowing up the Nordic Pipelines was heinous!
CDR Salamander, I’ll take a thorough read of your post, and comment if appropriate.
May I ask again… Are you aware of any man/made “Mine Warfare” affecting rock plates beneath the sea?
Was this recent Earthquake, directed at the Philippines, man-made, perhaps by China?
Thank you and stay safe! Nurse Jane
The more-focused mine clearance capability of the Avenger Class will be missed as the LCS mine clearance capability comes up to speed (hopefully) But, minelaying from surface ships was only a theory for most of my 32 years. We had a yard and stay launch capability for CAPTOR that was pretty clunky. I had a good look at the ROKN minelayer and the JMSDF as well...and they were pretty sexy. (their mines, not so much). So LCS as a mine layer is interesting and as stated, they have capacity. Hostile counter-fire will be challenging to say the least. Especially in areas where mining would be most effective. Even high-volume USAF mine delivery is a challenge. We used to say only the sun appeared brighter than a B-52 turning toward the near-shore target area.
Will the LCS, repurposed and dragooned into a new mission, become the DMS of the 21st century? At the very least, this could create a rich opportunity for a reboot of “The Caine Mutiny.”
Curtis LeMay was miffed at having to diver B-29s to mining operations. Later he admitted begrudgingly that those B-29s mining missions really paid off.
Lemay “There are still wooden peasant homes in Japan we haven’t burned and you’re asking me to help cut off remaining Japanese sea lanes? The nerve!”
Bravo on the movie. Pretty good. Mines seem like they are Navy 101. They sunk hundreds of Japanese cargo ships. (I think I got that from you CDR.) More mines, faster. Will Taiwan or the US Navy have time to lay significant numbers of mines while under attack by missiles?
Lots of Warfighting 101 has been lost over the years. The "Smartest People in the Room" find graduate-level Special Topics in Warfighting much more intellectually stimulating. This is not helped by Congressional staffers, thesis advisers, and editorial review panels equally favoring arcane topics over 101's.
SUBPAC will have a big role in determining their use...
Seems like homeporting the LCS in Japan and the Philippines would be a good start. Frequently transiting the East and South China seas would get the crews familiar with the area.
Next, do we have the inventory?
yes we do, but are they surface-layable? (nope)
Then there is no inventory.
only for the USAF and TACAIR
A surface deployed mine seems like something might have a design for, like one over 100 years old. These are not high-tech, heck they don't even need any electronics.
mines delivered by surface means can and currently are very sophisticated and targeting specific... we have no surface contact mines
Nor is there really any reason to have any.
Until you can no longer get the electronic components to build the smart mines.
Pretty expensive “truck” that this coffin with a jet ski propulsion is turning into, I’d think some unmanned (disposable) barges with a well deck could perform just as well. Finding work for a bad idea is likely an even badder idea, IMHO.
You go with the truck you have not the one you want. If you think the current Defense vendors are capable of selling the Navy cheap, disposable barges then I suggest you take a look at the contract Halter, now Bollinger, got for a half dozen Auxiliary Personnel Lighters (berthing barges). There are barge yards on the Mississippi that would love to get this kind of money thrown at them.
Yes, you take what you have, however 1/10th of a trillion dollars would buy a but-ton more capability than what could likely be taken out with a 50k$ drone. Just saying
"Finding work for a bad idea is likely an even badder idea...."
The BF-110 did okay.
Ahh, the night fighter bomber, I think it was a good idea, not a bad one, except for the lack of pilots available.
Failed as a heavy day fighter.
No Mosquito magic.
That's the TA-154. (Rex's Hangar just had an episode on it.)
Lcs has the ability to be a drone mothership and is supposed to send remote gear to fight the enemy. Do that. Design a small, cheap, one purpose, vtol, minelaying UAV. Then equip each ship with many of them. You could do the same with usvs. Now it won’t matter if they track the route of the lcs. One idea of many for lcs doing better sea denial.
And Taiwan could do all of that. Drone swarms arising from the island, skimming the waves and dropping the mines where needed. No ships or subs sunk. No manned aircraft downed.
Load them up with the latest influence mines, like the Finnish blocker, and they just might prove useful.
https://forcitdefence.com/product/blocker/
IF... we were allowed to buy them and IF...they interface well with the intended delivery platform.
SMWDC was looking at the blockers, or at least their target detection system, at one point, but I don't know what came of it. The Cube system is definitely compatible with the blocker mines, as the company that manufactures them (FORCIT) was involved in developing the CUBE mine laying system.
Foreign mine purchases can be difficult as they are almost always developed for their littoral waters. That said, sensor tech is a good way to upgrade ours if needed and could possibly be easier to get foreign purchase monies...
Torn between "Glad there's a mission for LCS" and "REPENT SINNERS, THE END IS NIGH!".
HMS Campbeltown anyone?
Whether laying mines in the SCS or ramming some Chinese port facility, bridge or scuttling at the harbor mouth, I think that any LCS mission in the SCS should be considered a one way ticket...
I don't think this is exclusive to LCS. This is going to be a very deadly place for everything.
https://ok.ru/video/6658101545633
TY
Filmed with an actual Four Piper. Too bad none of those survive as museum ships.
Seems a squadron in the Skagerrak would be handy. Also based at Xiyu, maybe.
The other half of the article was about how to up the potential of the platform to stow and fire more NSMs. Rather than just laying the NSMs out in the mission bay, we could design a TEU sized portable magazine and stow 4 in the container for a smidge more safety. Now integrate the missile on MH60-R/S and the CUSV (or derivative). The weapon module zones badly need a real small, versatile VLS. Start with JAGM, Hellfire, Spike NLOS, and get serious about a SAM/AIM to fit a system like that. Given the current module that wastes half the space can carry 24 I am guessing 48 cells is doable, per module. 144 cells if you use all 3 boxes.
CDR Salamander, I love the “Cube”!
China is building “Floating” the solid surface - guided to your LCS…
I’m not aware of anyone else … we did in the Middle East… then it was bombed… then we took it down…
CDR Salamander,
What if these solid surfaces were folded or rolled… stowed…
What if the flotation devices were also stowed…
The little Boat to guide-stabilize such a “Transformer” while “Cube” received the “Product”.
Can we please not think “Mines”, too nerve wracking, for me…
Open Sea Lanes…
Let’s not close a Sea Lane, please.
Let’s do watch China…
My theory is that if China can aim Lasers skyward…
China can aim Lasers subsurface…
How do we protect our LCS from a sub surface Laser Beam - Kaboom?
Same idea as the seismographic plate shift … purposefully done subsurface..
NOAA am I correct, that it can be done?
If so, CDR Salamander, your little Cube can work subsurface to be the platform from which said Laser is guided?
Do we have detection devices for Laser?
My new “Toy” is a Dyson Morph Light. Should arrive in 10 Business Days.
I’ll pretend this Morph Light can work like a “Laser”… Be safe! Nurse Jane lights the way in any direction now with “Morph Light Laser”. All Patented and Copyright to Simple Elegance by JAS. thank you!
I admire the minelayer's courage after spotting the German, but a gun duel seems...crazy. Maybe run away or, if armed with torpedoes, turn toward and get in a shot. "Hold her steady" on course also seems nuts. Still, I do like looking at Russian war pics now and then.