I love the PPA. For what we did to Fremm, it could do maybe as much as 100% of the same job for less money and go faster. That said a gray hull NSC could still be useful. Even an OPC with the 20V engines andd doubling up the electric motors would make a fine design. You could also use a higher output genset with the same number of valves (the ones from Korea's FFX batch II & III. So many easy wins we aren't even investigating.
As for the PC fill in, manned versions of the hull selected for MUSV. Very flexible seaframe with lots of speed and range.
Lombrum Naval Base? That only took five years to negotiate, and I'd bet the Australian's had more to do with this than anything our State Department might have accidentally contributed.
Also, my understanding is Port Morseby is absolute shithole with a crime rate that would scare people from New Orleans.
But, as our host often points out? You gotta' fight with whatya' got on hand.
BTW? How are we going to supply this base with items that can't be flown in? Charter Chinese owned ships?
Our FFG spent several days in Port Moresby in 1984. It was then a clean, peaceful place. Polite people. There were no incidents ashore of any kind. I recall in our brief from the diplomats that the locals were essentially a friendly people but that we must exercise some caution when nearing the edge of town because the local tribes used to be headhunters. One of us in attendance raised a hand and asked' "How will we know when we are at the edge of town?" The briefer responded, "You'll know when the road abruptly ends at thick impenetrable jungle". A few friend and I took a taxi to the "edge of town". The road transitioned from asphalt to dirt and the dress from tropical casual to grass skirts, bare breasts, and chicken bones through noses. Still, the people were friendly. None of us ventured into the jungle. Me? I remembered reading about Nelson Rockefeller's son, Michael, in 1961. What could possibly change Port Moresby into a shit hole? I dunno, Westernization?
That was sad to read. I met a professor there. He was Burmese, I think. He said that PNG had plenty of poverty but not the kind of grinding poverty in the West...that it did not have the attendant downsides like in the West, meaning crime and societal dysfunction. So, I think I answered my own question.
Five cannibals were employed by the Navy as translators during one of the island campaigns during World War II.
When the Commanding Admiral of the task force welcomed the cannibals he said, You're all part of our team now. We will compensate you well for your services, and you can eat any of the rations that the Sailors are eating. So please don't indulge yourselves by eating a Sailor.
The cannibals promised.
Four weeks later the Commanding Admiral returned and said, You're all working very hard, and I'm very satisfied with all of you. However, one of our Chiefs has disappeared. Do any of you know what happened to him.
The cannibals all shook their heads no. After the Admiral left, the leader of the cannibals turned to the others and said, Which of you idiots ate the Chief.
A hand raised hesitantly, to which the leader of the cannibals replied, You fool! For four weeks we've been eating Ensigns, Lieutenants, Lieutenant Commanders, and even one Commander and no one noticed anything, then YOU had to go and eat a Chief
Well, if we want to encourage domestic shipbuilding, buying at least 2 container ships for resupplying forward bases, as well as tankers, would be a good start....
Yes, and prepositioned as far inland in Southern Australia as possible away from the PLAN. The bases are currently only authorized for contingency operations. Put to much in and PNG gives it to the PLAN, or we need to build up quickly with no notice. Your idea is the way to go.
Submarines! Huge Giant cargo haulers with front and back ramps a Flight deck then some SAM launchers, a 50 mm gun and ......oh sorry I'm seeing the bloat again LOL
But actually maybe cargo hauler Subs can work if they are large enough and drone operated.
Pricey. Drug subs don't carry that much. Over on CIMSEC there was an article on building containers that can actually move semi submerged lice narco subs. This might work with many and small for cargo. Moving people and gear, unlikely.
DARPA was working towards a solution to the problem.....program called "Walrus" that was supposed to result in large airships that could carry a "full fighting unit from fort to fight in 72 hours".
Problem was........their all too common tunnel vision only saw some sort of blimp or dirigible. Those are archaic to the nth degree, and as wholly useless as almost everyone knows.
There is a solution. It is real, do-able, and fairly immediate. Airships that are built as robustly as airplanes, albeit of ultralightweight modern materials. designed to be amphibious, fast, and scalable up to 500 tons payload. virtually unlimited range. land anywhere, ground or water. anywhere.
and yep, we can build them as stealthy as B-2; in some regards, more so......
That could work in a permissible environment I think currently the RU/UAF war shows if it flies it dies unless it is a drone.
I recall efforts to air drop at very low altitude Troops in slide off container boxes with seats, US infantry out the back of C-130 which were then found to tear heads off the personnel on landing. Thankfully crash test dummies.
I agree with needing PC/light Frigate/Corvette but there are problems. Were are we going to get the sailors to man these vessels? Where are we going to get the larger maintenance facilities to take care of them, can we get some tenders and/or dry docks because we don't have enough facilities to take care of what we have got now (paint anyone). How about the cargo ships and tankers to get bullets/beans/gas to these new locations and ships?
Wonder if buying OPCs and paying regional partners to take the missions is an alternative. Then we might be able to get them built quick/fast and in a hurry by the Koreans and or Japanese.
We have probably got 5 years to get what we need in place in the Pacific. We need to get anything we can get our hands on .
Another item is port limitations. There was discussion about sending an EPF and LSD to Kimbe, New Britain, PNG. There wouldn't be good liberty, and there's not enough fendering for the thin hulled EPF at the port. I'm looking at some of those harbors, and while they could work, will they support a reasonable US presence?
Also, in many ways, for operations other than war, the USCG is better set up for working with other Navies. A closer mission profile and ship size.
It's about 3800 miles from Honiara Airport on Guadalcanal to the nearest point on the Chinese mainland. That's a long flight in whatever the Chinese use for transports, but doable. You have to fly between Taiwan and the Philippines, and in time of war that might be iffy, but it could still be done. In WW2 the Japanese wanted Tulagi for a seaplane base and started building on airfield on Guadalcanal, on the site of what became Henderson Field and is now Honiara Airport. The purpose of that airfield in WW2, when it was in Japanese hands, was to interdict supply lines to Australia. Or, from Honiara to Milne Bay in Papua New Guinea is about 680 miles, or to Seven-Mile Drome, excuse me, Jackson International Airport at Port Moresby, about 880. I see why the Japanese wanted Guadalcanal in 1942, but given that the Chinese today would face the same problems of logistics that the Japanese did back then, you have to wonder what possible use they could have for a base that far from the Middle Kingdom. It could always be to annoy the US and Australia, make us wonder why the wily Chinese are putting in the effort in such a remote location, but that's not a safe assumption. So what do the Chinese want with Guadalcanal? Something, obviously, but what?
The object needs to be a long term relation, not a one night stand. So, rather than starting the conversation by nominating a specific class or classes of ships, I would start by determining which classes of ships or OPVs could be mostly supported by the PNGDF on site, but might need depot level support in Australia. With that starting point, we might be exploring a significantly smaller class of vessel, such as the USCG FRC, but with a longer ranged weapon suite.
I would also be in discussions with PNG about multiple locations for our forward logistics bases and anchorages for our floating drydocks…… Do we have any left? I qualified as a Docking Officer in USS Competent (AFDM 6) in 1989; it is now owned by a commercial firm in Indonesia, at the other end of the island chain from PNG.
OBTW - Whoever came up with the idea for this visit and agreement - Recommend immediate promotion.
FRC is great, but I'm not sure how much big war gear could fit on it. It could be made as a much more dangerous patrol boat and step in where Cyclones stepped out.
Fair enough comment about payload. Are there any 1,000 ton FLD designs we can use as stalking horses? NAVSEA Preliminary Design is likely to have some concept designs in their files. That was one of our tasks back in my day there.
Link above is from about two years ago, here is one a little less than a year ago, so this is an ongoing program, involving SEABEES, along with Australian construction forces and PNG. This link is for a dental clinic (at the new base location) but will also serve the locals,
Stuff like this is super effective and cheap and needs to be expanded, preferably paid for out of money DOS would squander on pride flags or whatever else it is they do.
The UFO circus has little to do with this, more to do with the scandals going on, e.g. Democratic contributor SBF of FTX fame won't be charged with campaign contribution violations.
Showing my age, but the old Perry class FFG, with a H-60 detachment assigned would have worked well. The helicopter detachment could be utilized for various humanitarian missions. Unfortunately, they are no longer in the fleet. Just opinion of an old sailor.
We are not so old, Micheal. FFG-9 was my perfect sea tour. Liked it so much that I extended a year. Wish I had stayed aboard until I had my 30 in. Went aboard as an OpTech W-2 relieving an Elex LDO O-3 and left as an Operations LDO 0-2. (Sucks being a 39 year old LTjg.) That ship is still in service in the Polish Navy. If they waived the PRT I'd go serve tomorrow.
It's about time, the South Pacific has been 'in-play' for over a decade now. State Dept, along with DoD is finally getting around to some soft-power activities and relationship shoring-up
The US response to the volcano eruption in Tonga last year was pathetic, meanwhile China shows up and donates several tons of gear to include a bunch of tractors and generators.
While I understand we've allowed Australia and the Kiwi's to take the lead in this part of the world, after all this is their backyard, they also had a tendency to treat Pacific Islanders as cheap, seasonal labor force for their domestic needs rather than supporting efforts towards self-sufficiency.
I love the PPA. For what we did to Fremm, it could do maybe as much as 100% of the same job for less money and go faster. That said a gray hull NSC could still be useful. Even an OPC with the 20V engines andd doubling up the electric motors would make a fine design. You could also use a higher output genset with the same number of valves (the ones from Korea's FFX batch II & III. So many easy wins we aren't even investigating.
As for the PC fill in, manned versions of the hull selected for MUSV. Very flexible seaframe with lots of speed and range.
And I'll use this moment to pitch an EPF that can land on a beach as the solution for LSM. Marines want fast and light. That would complement what they are doing. This is still very much a work in progress, but: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Z2LetuTE4cdRAohqC6ihHT8oMWR7YrtPK5yK4Fg8HGw/edit?usp=sharing
Some of the Korean designs shown at MADEX last month are pretty slick looking. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2OGuRFnTsg
They are solid. The thing I liked most in all that is there updated CIWS with fixed face radars.
Or how about adding a few more National Security Cutters to CG fleet?
Good Idea!
Lombrum Naval Base? That only took five years to negotiate, and I'd bet the Australian's had more to do with this than anything our State Department might have accidentally contributed.
Also, my understanding is Port Morseby is absolute shithole with a crime rate that would scare people from New Orleans.
But, as our host often points out? You gotta' fight with whatya' got on hand.
BTW? How are we going to supply this base with items that can't be flown in? Charter Chinese owned ships?
....ahem......
Gesundheit!
Our FFG spent several days in Port Moresby in 1984. It was then a clean, peaceful place. Polite people. There were no incidents ashore of any kind. I recall in our brief from the diplomats that the locals were essentially a friendly people but that we must exercise some caution when nearing the edge of town because the local tribes used to be headhunters. One of us in attendance raised a hand and asked' "How will we know when we are at the edge of town?" The briefer responded, "You'll know when the road abruptly ends at thick impenetrable jungle". A few friend and I took a taxi to the "edge of town". The road transitioned from asphalt to dirt and the dress from tropical casual to grass skirts, bare breasts, and chicken bones through noses. Still, the people were friendly. None of us ventured into the jungle. Me? I remembered reading about Nelson Rockefeller's son, Michael, in 1961. What could possibly change Port Moresby into a shit hole? I dunno, Westernization?
Don't know what or when.
Briefly and unrealistically thought about taking a vacation there, and then found this several years ago.
https://www.numbeo.com/crime/in/Port-Moresby
Rabaul has recovered nicely from the volcanic activity and I still might consider it if crime ever drops.
That was sad to read. I met a professor there. He was Burmese, I think. He said that PNG had plenty of poverty but not the kind of grinding poverty in the West...that it did not have the attendant downsides like in the West, meaning crime and societal dysfunction. So, I think I answered my own question.
Five cannibals were employed by the Navy as translators during one of the island campaigns during World War II.
When the Commanding Admiral of the task force welcomed the cannibals he said, You're all part of our team now. We will compensate you well for your services, and you can eat any of the rations that the Sailors are eating. So please don't indulge yourselves by eating a Sailor.
The cannibals promised.
Four weeks later the Commanding Admiral returned and said, You're all working very hard, and I'm very satisfied with all of you. However, one of our Chiefs has disappeared. Do any of you know what happened to him.
The cannibals all shook their heads no. After the Admiral left, the leader of the cannibals turned to the others and said, Which of you idiots ate the Chief.
A hand raised hesitantly, to which the leader of the cannibals replied, You fool! For four weeks we've been eating Ensigns, Lieutenants, Lieutenant Commanders, and even one Commander and no one noticed anything, then YOU had to go and eat a Chief
...I get it, The cannibal leader was a Chief too.
Navy Chiefs are crusty salty and the coffee mugs don't season well.
LOL funny I love it!
"a crime rate that would scare people from New Orleans."
That's OK; we'll send people from San Francisco!
Well, if we want to encourage domestic shipbuilding, buying at least 2 container ships for resupplying forward bases, as well as tankers, would be a good start....
Yes, and prepositioned as far inland in Southern Australia as possible away from the PLAN. The bases are currently only authorized for contingency operations. Put to much in and PNG gives it to the PLAN, or we need to build up quickly with no notice. Your idea is the way to go.
Submarines! Huge Giant cargo haulers with front and back ramps a Flight deck then some SAM launchers, a 50 mm gun and ......oh sorry I'm seeing the bloat again LOL
But actually maybe cargo hauler Subs can work if they are large enough and drone operated.
Much as the Drug subs that infest the Gulf.
Any ideas?
Pricey. Drug subs don't carry that much. Over on CIMSEC there was an article on building containers that can actually move semi submerged lice narco subs. This might work with many and small for cargo. Moving people and gear, unlikely.
I can't see riding in a submarine that is remote piloted by AI as being something your average Grunt would appreciate.
Many sounds good! and small.
DARPA was working towards a solution to the problem.....program called "Walrus" that was supposed to result in large airships that could carry a "full fighting unit from fort to fight in 72 hours".
Problem was........their all too common tunnel vision only saw some sort of blimp or dirigible. Those are archaic to the nth degree, and as wholly useless as almost everyone knows.
There is a solution. It is real, do-able, and fairly immediate. Airships that are built as robustly as airplanes, albeit of ultralightweight modern materials. designed to be amphibious, fast, and scalable up to 500 tons payload. virtually unlimited range. land anywhere, ground or water. anywhere.
and yep, we can build them as stealthy as B-2; in some regards, more so......
That could work in a permissible environment I think currently the RU/UAF war shows if it flies it dies unless it is a drone.
I recall efforts to air drop at very low altitude Troops in slide off container boxes with seats, US infantry out the back of C-130 which were then found to tear heads off the personnel on landing. Thankfully crash test dummies.
This is the type of mission/ environment that a Cyclone class would be ideal for.
I would be happier if we sent troops to the Rio Grande. I guess we must defend PNG. If we don't Tonga or Tahiti might be next.
Ironically that’s also where the USCG is... but they are too insecure to mention it. More CBP getting budget on the backs of USCG labor.
Nah, the French will remind everybody why they were one of the greatest asskickers of all time if Tahiti gets threatened.
I agree with needing PC/light Frigate/Corvette but there are problems. Were are we going to get the sailors to man these vessels? Where are we going to get the larger maintenance facilities to take care of them, can we get some tenders and/or dry docks because we don't have enough facilities to take care of what we have got now (paint anyone). How about the cargo ships and tankers to get bullets/beans/gas to these new locations and ships?
Wonder if buying OPCs and paying regional partners to take the missions is an alternative. Then we might be able to get them built quick/fast and in a hurry by the Koreans and or Japanese.
We have probably got 5 years to get what we need in place in the Pacific. We need to get anything we can get our hands on .
We have ample capacity for patrol boats and corvette build and maintenance we are not using. We need the workforce. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vGXRBmAkCuZfMZf-B16O565gF9V1tkFUaNlOsQ3Ir94/edit#gid=0
Gulf shipyards build plenty of hulls that can do for PCs.
Or maybe instead of subs, the proposed Lorain yard could build tenders and PCs.
USS Canberra (LCS-30) can stop there on the way back to CONUS.
Since USCG will be in the area soon, that is a prudent tow ship opportunity, if needed.
Another item is port limitations. There was discussion about sending an EPF and LSD to Kimbe, New Britain, PNG. There wouldn't be good liberty, and there's not enough fendering for the thin hulled EPF at the port. I'm looking at some of those harbors, and while they could work, will they support a reasonable US presence?
Also, in many ways, for operations other than war, the USCG is better set up for working with other Navies. A closer mission profile and ship size.
Port improvements sounds like a great Army/Navy Reserves/National Guard deployment.
"Pacific vacation this year, folks"!
It's about 3800 miles from Honiara Airport on Guadalcanal to the nearest point on the Chinese mainland. That's a long flight in whatever the Chinese use for transports, but doable. You have to fly between Taiwan and the Philippines, and in time of war that might be iffy, but it could still be done. In WW2 the Japanese wanted Tulagi for a seaplane base and started building on airfield on Guadalcanal, on the site of what became Henderson Field and is now Honiara Airport. The purpose of that airfield in WW2, when it was in Japanese hands, was to interdict supply lines to Australia. Or, from Honiara to Milne Bay in Papua New Guinea is about 680 miles, or to Seven-Mile Drome, excuse me, Jackson International Airport at Port Moresby, about 880. I see why the Japanese wanted Guadalcanal in 1942, but given that the Chinese today would face the same problems of logistics that the Japanese did back then, you have to wonder what possible use they could have for a base that far from the Middle Kingdom. It could always be to annoy the US and Australia, make us wonder why the wily Chinese are putting in the effort in such a remote location, but that's not a safe assumption. So what do the Chinese want with Guadalcanal? Something, obviously, but what?
Guadalcanal is to Australia (potentially) as Guam is to China.....
perhaps.
We have the same logistics problem with more Ghormley and less Halsey.
War plan Orange… a thing in 35-41 and a thing now.
Hopefully the forward deployment now goes better than the one in 1941....
The object needs to be a long term relation, not a one night stand. So, rather than starting the conversation by nominating a specific class or classes of ships, I would start by determining which classes of ships or OPVs could be mostly supported by the PNGDF on site, but might need depot level support in Australia. With that starting point, we might be exploring a significantly smaller class of vessel, such as the USCG FRC, but with a longer ranged weapon suite.
I would also be in discussions with PNG about multiple locations for our forward logistics bases and anchorages for our floating drydocks…… Do we have any left? I qualified as a Docking Officer in USS Competent (AFDM 6) in 1989; it is now owned by a commercial firm in Indonesia, at the other end of the island chain from PNG.
OBTW - Whoever came up with the idea for this visit and agreement - Recommend immediate promotion.
FRC is great, but I'm not sure how much big war gear could fit on it. It could be made as a much more dangerous patrol boat and step in where Cyclones stepped out.
Fair enough comment about payload. Are there any 1,000 ton FLD designs we can use as stalking horses? NAVSEA Preliminary Design is likely to have some concept designs in their files. That was one of our tasks back in my day there.
Seabees already doing work here:
https://www.dvidshub.net/image/6784035/us-navy-seabees-with-nmcb-5s-detail-papua-new-guinea-take-over-nmcb-4
Link above is from about two years ago, here is one a little less than a year ago, so this is an ongoing program, involving SEABEES, along with Australian construction forces and PNG. This link is for a dental clinic (at the new base location) but will also serve the locals,
Stuff like this is super effective and cheap and needs to be expanded, preferably paid for out of money DOS would squander on pride flags or whatever else it is they do.
https://www.cpf.navy.mil/Newsroom/News/Article/2884689/us-navy-seabees-construct-dental-facility/
The UFO circus has little to do with this, more to do with the scandals going on, e.g. Democratic contributor SBF of FTX fame won't be charged with campaign contribution violations.
Showing my age, but the old Perry class FFG, with a H-60 detachment assigned would have worked well. The helicopter detachment could be utilized for various humanitarian missions. Unfortunately, they are no longer in the fleet. Just opinion of an old sailor.
Not transformational enough.
No opportunities for graft
We are not so old, Micheal. FFG-9 was my perfect sea tour. Liked it so much that I extended a year. Wish I had stayed aboard until I had my 30 in. Went aboard as an OpTech W-2 relieving an Elex LDO O-3 and left as an Operations LDO 0-2. (Sucks being a 39 year old LTjg.) That ship is still in service in the Polish Navy. If they waived the PRT I'd go serve tomorrow.
It's about time, the South Pacific has been 'in-play' for over a decade now. State Dept, along with DoD is finally getting around to some soft-power activities and relationship shoring-up
The US response to the volcano eruption in Tonga last year was pathetic, meanwhile China shows up and donates several tons of gear to include a bunch of tractors and generators.
While I understand we've allowed Australia and the Kiwi's to take the lead in this part of the world, after all this is their backyard, they also had a tendency to treat Pacific Islanders as cheap, seasonal labor force for their domestic needs rather than supporting efforts towards self-sufficiency.
Import South Pacific, not Chinese pineapple would be a start.
Good News, the stoned on drugs, gender benders and LGBTQ corrupt government of the US sleeping giant is being awakened by war drums in the SW Pacific.
Let's hope they don't mess this up.
That's not the way to bet, alas.