Will wait and see the details. Generally speaking I'm for a "coalition of the willing" performing escort operations for merchants flagged by the coalition states, and reactive response to other flagged vessels. If, as the other Sal hints at, Maersk manipulated their ships in the Maritime Security Program Fleet to get the US and her allies to escort Maersk ships under flags of convenience, then I will be writing a letter to my rep and senators. That would require closer scrutiny at the DC level.
He has contacts that say that Maersk is using this to pressure the USN to protect all Maersk ships, not just the US flagged ones. And, with the other major carriers, is busy trying to figure out how to make use the situation to raise rates and reduce overcapacity.
"(A total of 34 Perry-class frigates currently are in service by other navies—Australia, Bahrain, Egypt, Turkey, Poland, Spain, Taiwan, and Pakistan.)"
Two of the RAN's remain operational but have been sold to Chile.
I am being sarcastic. Flags of Convenience still apparently get USN protection. I’m also poking at how we toss still viable hulls away. Never going to get over all the OHP’s and Spru’s that went Sinkex. Need some mods to the Jones Act to get Stars & Stripes on more merchies.
Served aboard FFG-9 1982-1986 W-2 to O-2E. Last I heard, it was still in service with the Polish Navy. Would cheerfully serve on an OHP again in any capacity from messcook to OOD if they'd wave PRT and %BF.
There is a pub (for NATO at least) that automatically generates these titles. Names like "Odyssey Dawn" don't come from the good idea fairy but rather whatever the book says next.
Why is the US playing Defense? How many attacks on American forces does it take to decide to retaliate. As Mike Tyson famously said, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth..." Perhaps It's time to knock out a few teeth.
The return address for complaints is Kharg Island and Bandar Abbas. What's the lead time on replacing a container unloading crane? Asking for an enemy ...
I suggest the primary target should be Qom, site of many Shia seminary schools and home to a number of the Grand Ayatollahs. Qom was totally destroyed by Mongols in 1224 . . . . .
The mind absolutely *reels* at the thought of how many ways there are to unobtrusively sabotage expensive equipment. Flash fried electronics? A drained brake hydraulic line? Oh, my. Think WW2 French underground.
Three nights with a couple hundred bombers in '72 certainly brought Le Duc Tho back to the negotiating table. Of course we have less than a fraction of airframes today, if we dropped the same amount of ordnance we would significantly deplete our iron bomb stockpile, and - once depleted - we have the industrial capacity to refill the stockpile in a decade (maybe). Still, if there is any diplomatic point where I have faith in the Smartest People in the Room to make, it would be a Pyrrhic one such as this.
One would think that, in the interests of multiculturalism, we’d join our capability with KSA and eliminate Shia Iran & followers. If Sunni can eliminate Shia, the multicultural response to Shia piracy is to eliminate Shia..
Hard to not get the sense we are being totally reactive here. AND...even if we do react, it will be with unspoken U.S. "national caveats" that hamstring U.S. forces. Something to watch: replenishment of VLS cells as destroyers engage targets and run out of vampire deterrent...
What's to watch WRT replenishment? The DDGs will simply rendezvous with the Destroyer Tenders like Piedmont, Dixie, Sierra, Markab, etc. We got this covered - at sea unrep and reload - piece of cake. Hang on a minute, someone in my ear sez "we ain't got no such thing". How can that be? No tenders? A world class Navy with no tenders?
We certainly don't need another "Cole incident" in some slimy SH port trying to reload VLS.
And it seems we again are shooting $100,000 threats with $2,000,000 rounds.
Correction, Pete. It WAS a job for the Marines. We hesitate to bring anything to bear on those threatening the sea lanes, no air assets, no VLS volley, not even an old school 5" shellacking of targets of discretion. The USMC doesn't ride shotgun like they used to and deployment costs, even a raid, would be considerable. There are cost effective ways to bring the pain but the will is not there.
The lack of will on the part of the leadership may be due to their concerns over the upcoming election. The lack of will on the part of the people may be the result of the toll taken by the endless wars. I cannot believe in a lack of will on the part of the Marines. I hope America has not become a paper tiger.
Roger that. The Marines in my life would agree completely. If the mission has changed due to emerging threats, what do we call that? Another discussion altogether, but train them up as dedicated naval commandoes and shore clearing missions like this would be ideal to their newfound task and purpose. Something between the RM and Rangers.
Can we finally put to rest the charade of the PLAN's anti-piracy mission in the area? They wouldn't lift a finger to help a merchantman under attack a few weeks ago and now they post garbage like this:
"The Houthis have indirectly contributed to the shift in transportation from sea to land, undermining US maritime supremacy and promoting [China's] international strategy of global multipolarity" - Xiao Yunhua, professor at the PLA National Defense University (NDU) thinks that the Houthis have "inadvertently did China a big favor"
Wasn't it only yesterday that we talked about fighting a two front war against Iran and North Korea? How is it possible that it is now so difficult to form a task force to deal with ragged terrorists from Yemen and pirates from Somalia?
Because SECDEF was likely trying to get Euro-Asian navies assembled, committed then had to put up with various excuse-making and dithering. As always, I'm sure some horse-trading and compromises were necessary ....who provides UNREP? who's stockpile are the interceptors coming out of? who gets which patrol box? who gets to deal with that Iranian spy ship sitting in the middle of the strait?
Australia, look mate...we understand your regional priorities. In fact, we share them, but those subs are game changers and you need to make a token show of AUKUS unity. Get your arse to the Red Sea posthaste. One destroyer and a highly motivated skipper is all that's required.
The UN General Aseembly sent the worst possible message by calling for a ceasefire in Gaza. The Houthis may believe that the world is not serious about combatting terrorism.
The UN is not serious about combating terrorism, they're apologists for it. In fact, it could be legitimately argued that the UN is one of the top sponsors of terrorism given the number of UN directed troops involved in theft, human trafficking, sex assault, and various other nefarious activities.
Pete: The Houthis are correct. The world is not serious about combatting terrorism. The real threat is America's "domestic violent extremists" (Grandpa, Grandma, Uncle Bob, little Jimmy with the piece of Wonderbread, shaped like a rifle), and some Israeli yeshiva students wearing Teva sandals, standing on a barren hilltop in the Judean Hills, outside of Jerusalem.
First...lets STOP using "piracy"...this is DECLARED state of war beteeen TWO states...Israel and Yemen to stop Israeli genocidal attacks in Gaza. Yemen targets ISRAELI chartered and flagged ships...sound like "piracy" to you? Its NOT.... When Israel stops bombing civilians in Gaza then their shipping will NOT be attacked either... I dont see where the USN or NATO has any legal leg to stand on. No foreign nation buys the "piracy" excuse Washington sells anymore.
Israel must be the worst country ever to propagate genocide. Gaza increased it's population. Israel hadn't been patrolling Gaza in nearly two decades. Israel's civilian to combatant killed ratio is better than the US's.
In short, Israel isn't conducting genocide. Not even close.
"There are no civilians in Japan. We are making War and making it in the all-out fashion which saves American lives, shortens the agony which War is and seeks to bring about an enduring Peace."
Yemen wants to play? Great, let's play a game of "unconditional warfare." It's time to quash this war of civilizations permanently.
“If you are going to use military force, then you ought to use overwhelming military force. Use too much and deliberately use too much; you'll save lives, not only your own, but the enemy's too.” - LeMay
You're probably still fuming about the '500 dead' in the 'attack on a hospital' done 'by the IDF'. The three things in quotes are all lies. There was a Hamas claim for 500 casualties, which western media translated into 500 dead. It was not an attack, it was a rocket that accidentally fell short. It was not by IDF; the rocket was fired by Palestinian Islamic Jihad, the sister org of Hamas. Did you know the truth about that one? Please look carefully into any claims of Israel bombing civilians, because they are probably as much BS as that 'hospital attack'.
I’m so tired of people using “genocide” like it’s a bad thing. Since when is Darwin “bad?”
No one wants Pals around. No. One. Egypt closed their borders - with tanks - on 8 OCT. Jordan whacked a few thousand in the ‘70s. The more people know about Pals, the less they want them around.
How many modern lives - modern, productive, educated lives - would be saved by erasing illiterate premodern Pals? How much money could be diverted to schools and water treatment and electricity generation?
Where were all these whiners about genocide in Armenia? Or Georgia?
I typically lean more isolationist, but piracy is one of those areas where I think we <i>should</i> be using a big hammer. I would love for a large coalition of maritime nations to coalesce, but I fear that with so many fingers in the pie there'll be too many restrictions on the ROE. In the long run, it would be better to take out the facilities on land that are used to launch the Houthi operations than to waste all those anti-air rockets. Destroy their toys before they get to play with them. And that's not something I see anyone but the US, possibly Japan, being involved in. And I don't trust the Biden regime to have the fortitude to carry it off.
“Prosperity Guardian”...makes me want to wretch, absolutely, agree. Why not something more along the lines of "Operation Blackbeard"? Sounds slightly sinister and completely to the point.
Will wait and see the details. Generally speaking I'm for a "coalition of the willing" performing escort operations for merchants flagged by the coalition states, and reactive response to other flagged vessels. If, as the other Sal hints at, Maersk manipulated their ships in the Maritime Security Program Fleet to get the US and her allies to escort Maersk ships under flags of convenience, then I will be writing a letter to my rep and senators. That would require closer scrutiny at the DC level.
Can you elaborate on the Maersk manipulation? Asking for a friend...
He has contacts that say that Maersk is using this to pressure the USN to protect all Maersk ships, not just the US flagged ones. And, with the other major carriers, is busy trying to figure out how to make use the situation to raise rates and reduce overcapacity.
I heard that Malta, Liberia , Panama and the Isle of Man are sending their still usable OHP FFG’s. Yeah. Silly. What is a “US flagged ship”?
FFG-7's are still in use, just not by those countries. From an old link -
https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2013/june/us-navy-where-are-frigates
"(A total of 34 Perry-class frigates currently are in service by other navies—Australia, Bahrain, Egypt, Turkey, Poland, Spain, Taiwan, and Pakistan.)"
Two of the RAN's remain operational but have been sold to Chile.
I am being sarcastic. Flags of Convenience still apparently get USN protection. I’m also poking at how we toss still viable hulls away. Never going to get over all the OHP’s and Spru’s that went Sinkex. Need some mods to the Jones Act to get Stars & Stripes on more merchies.
Served aboard FFG-9 1982-1986 W-2 to O-2E. Last I heard, it was still in service with the Polish Navy. Would cheerfully serve on an OHP again in any capacity from messcook to OOD if they'd wave PRT and %BF.
“Operation Prosperity Guardian”
Someone on the Joint Staff loves irony.
As with our borders, the prosperity of others outweighs our own...
I would have preferred "Operation Behead the Cobra" or "Operation Parking Lot" or .....
Operation Erase Houthis...
There is a pub (for NATO at least) that automatically generates these titles. Names like "Odyssey Dawn" don't come from the good idea fairy but rather whatever the book says next.
That NATO guidance is for generating exercise names automatically. Ref A: https://shape.nato.int/exercises/nato-exercise-naming-convention
Wake up, dude. Our nation is strong and prosperous. Turn off Fox and go for a walk.
Did you notice the inflation? It was all over he media. Also all over the gas pumps.
“You keep thinkin’, Butch. That’s what you’re good at.”
Operation Barbary Pirates
Why is the US playing Defense? How many attacks on American forces does it take to decide to retaliate. As Mike Tyson famously said, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth..." Perhaps It's time to knock out a few teeth.
Sounds like Iron Mike read up on Clausewitz.
We're probably going to wind up taking out some Sand People.
They always ride single file, to hide their numbers
We’ve been playing defense since 9 AUG 45
The return address for complaints is Kharg Island and Bandar Abbas. What's the lead time on replacing a container unloading crane? Asking for an enemy ...
I suggest the primary target should be Qom, site of many Shia seminary schools and home to a number of the Grand Ayatollahs. Qom was totally destroyed by Mongols in 1224 . . . . .
The mind absolutely *reels* at the thought of how many ways there are to unobtrusively sabotage expensive equipment. Flash fried electronics? A drained brake hydraulic line? Oh, my. Think WW2 French underground.
Hundreds of incendiary bomblets mysteriously falling from the sky?
Too easy to trace. I was thinking more along the lines of playing with their heads as well as their hardware.
There's just something about a line of B-52s raining destruction that causes one to reevaluate their priorities.
Three nights with a couple hundred bombers in '72 certainly brought Le Duc Tho back to the negotiating table. Of course we have less than a fraction of airframes today, if we dropped the same amount of ordnance we would significantly deplete our iron bomb stockpile, and - once depleted - we have the industrial capacity to refill the stockpile in a decade (maybe). Still, if there is any diplomatic point where I have faith in the Smartest People in the Room to make, it would be a Pyrrhic one such as this.
One would think that, in the interests of multiculturalism, we’d join our capability with KSA and eliminate Shia Iran & followers. If Sunni can eliminate Shia, the multicultural response to Shia piracy is to eliminate Shia..
I suspect KSA knows how vulnerable they are to Iran’s Quds Force sabotage.
Then they should buy a Paki nuke & use it.
Please don't give them any ideas
If “an armed society is a polite society,” then a proliferated world is a polite world.
Hard to not get the sense we are being totally reactive here. AND...even if we do react, it will be with unspoken U.S. "national caveats" that hamstring U.S. forces. Something to watch: replenishment of VLS cells as destroyers engage targets and run out of vampire deterrent...
What's to watch WRT replenishment? The DDGs will simply rendezvous with the Destroyer Tenders like Piedmont, Dixie, Sierra, Markab, etc. We got this covered - at sea unrep and reload - piece of cake. Hang on a minute, someone in my ear sez "we ain't got no such thing". How can that be? No tenders? A world class Navy with no tenders?
We certainly don't need another "Cole incident" in some slimy SH port trying to reload VLS.
And it seems we again are shooting $100,000 threats with $2,000,000 rounds.
This is a job for the Marines.
Correction, Pete. It WAS a job for the Marines. We hesitate to bring anything to bear on those threatening the sea lanes, no air assets, no VLS volley, not even an old school 5" shellacking of targets of discretion. The USMC doesn't ride shotgun like they used to and deployment costs, even a raid, would be considerable. There are cost effective ways to bring the pain but the will is not there.
That hurts having been part of the Gator Navy.
The lack of will on the part of the leadership may be due to their concerns over the upcoming election. The lack of will on the part of the people may be the result of the toll taken by the endless wars. I cannot believe in a lack of will on the part of the Marines. I hope America has not become a paper tiger.
Roger that. The Marines in my life would agree completely. If the mission has changed due to emerging threats, what do we call that? Another discussion altogether, but train them up as dedicated naval commandoes and shore clearing missions like this would be ideal to their newfound task and purpose. Something between the RM and Rangers.
This is regrettably a CIC decision.
The RM refocus on maritime missions seems well advised.
Just waiting on the actual Asian tiger to jump.
Or at least GMLRS.
I have been waiting for that Winchester moment. Assume some vampires could be whacked by the 5”..
Anti-piracy is reactive. They pillage, we react. The US Navy is an anti-piracy force.
Can we finally put to rest the charade of the PLAN's anti-piracy mission in the area? They wouldn't lift a finger to help a merchantman under attack a few weeks ago and now they post garbage like this:
"The Houthis have indirectly contributed to the shift in transportation from sea to land, undermining US maritime supremacy and promoting [China's] international strategy of global multipolarity" - Xiao Yunhua, professor at the PLA National Defense University (NDU) thinks that the Houthis have "inadvertently did China a big favor"
https://twitter.com/GeringTuvia/status/1736743596970115547?t=TPYIwHM2t7L7eqbe7Hyffw&s=19
Not inadvertent
Wasn't it only yesterday that we talked about fighting a two front war against Iran and North Korea? How is it possible that it is now so difficult to form a task force to deal with ragged terrorists from Yemen and pirates from Somalia?
Because SECDEF was likely trying to get Euro-Asian navies assembled, committed then had to put up with various excuse-making and dithering. As always, I'm sure some horse-trading and compromises were necessary ....who provides UNREP? who's stockpile are the interceptors coming out of? who gets which patrol box? who gets to deal with that Iranian spy ship sitting in the middle of the strait?
Australia is reluctant? I remember being told that the AUKUS alliance was a game changer in the Pacific that would push back on China. What happened?
Australia, look mate...we understand your regional priorities. In fact, we share them, but those subs are game changers and you need to make a token show of AUKUS unity. Get your arse to the Red Sea posthaste. One destroyer and a highly motivated skipper is all that's required.
An election happened.
Thanks for the Virginias though.
I wonder if the weapons we left behind in Afghanistant made it to Yemen?
They made it to Gaza. So yeah, probably.
Those are Ukrainian weapons being used in Gaza.
U.S. Army serialized small arms have been confiscated in Gaza. Thank you, Mr. President.
The UN General Aseembly sent the worst possible message by calling for a ceasefire in Gaza. The Houthis may believe that the world is not serious about combatting terrorism.
The UN is not serious about combating terrorism, they're apologists for it. In fact, it could be legitimately argued that the UN is one of the top sponsors of terrorism given the number of UN directed troops involved in theft, human trafficking, sex assault, and various other nefarious activities.
That's because the world is not serious about defeating terrorism.
Pete: The Houthis are correct. The world is not serious about combatting terrorism. The real threat is America's "domestic violent extremists" (Grandpa, Grandma, Uncle Bob, little Jimmy with the piece of Wonderbread, shaped like a rifle), and some Israeli yeshiva students wearing Teva sandals, standing on a barren hilltop in the Judean Hills, outside of Jerusalem.
First...lets STOP using "piracy"...this is DECLARED state of war beteeen TWO states...Israel and Yemen to stop Israeli genocidal attacks in Gaza. Yemen targets ISRAELI chartered and flagged ships...sound like "piracy" to you? Its NOT.... When Israel stops bombing civilians in Gaza then their shipping will NOT be attacked either... I dont see where the USN or NATO has any legal leg to stand on. No foreign nation buys the "piracy" excuse Washington sells anymore.
Israel must be the worst country ever to propagate genocide. Gaza increased it's population. Israel hadn't been patrolling Gaza in nearly two decades. Israel's civilian to combatant killed ratio is better than the US's.
In short, Israel isn't conducting genocide. Not even close.
War stinks. Hamas initiated the war.
https://youtu.be/Ubw5N8iVDHI?feature=shared
"There are no civilians in Japan. We are making War and making it in the all-out fashion which saves American lives, shortens the agony which War is and seeks to bring about an enduring Peace."
Yemen wants to play? Great, let's play a game of "unconditional warfare." It's time to quash this war of civilizations permanently.
In my dreams I see squadrons of B-52s departing Diego Garcia…….
Visiting a boneyard before bedtime will help with your lucid dreaming. https://www.airplaneboneyards.com/images/amarg/b52-bombers-scrapped-davis-monthan-afb-arizona-boneyard-5.jpg
https://i0.wp.com/www.military-history.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/ANM3FY.jpg
“If you are going to use military force, then you ought to use overwhelming military force. Use too much and deliberately use too much; you'll save lives, not only your own, but the enemy's too.” - LeMay
Lemay... The man had a way with words.
Get off the crack pipe.
It's a toss up as to whether the Houthis are pirates or terrorists. In nay case they should all be killed and God can decide.
You're probably still fuming about the '500 dead' in the 'attack on a hospital' done 'by the IDF'. The three things in quotes are all lies. There was a Hamas claim for 500 casualties, which western media translated into 500 dead. It was not an attack, it was a rocket that accidentally fell short. It was not by IDF; the rocket was fired by Palestinian Islamic Jihad, the sister org of Hamas. Did you know the truth about that one? Please look carefully into any claims of Israel bombing civilians, because they are probably as much BS as that 'hospital attack'.
I’m so tired of people using “genocide” like it’s a bad thing. Since when is Darwin “bad?”
No one wants Pals around. No. One. Egypt closed their borders - with tanks - on 8 OCT. Jordan whacked a few thousand in the ‘70s. The more people know about Pals, the less they want them around.
How many modern lives - modern, productive, educated lives - would be saved by erasing illiterate premodern Pals? How much money could be diverted to schools and water treatment and electricity generation?
Where were all these whiners about genocide in Armenia? Or Georgia?
Pals delenda est = peace in the area.
On p. 42 of a 45 page document. (climate change was on p. 6)
https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Biden-Harris-Administrations-National-Security-Strategy-10.2022.pdf
Second, the United States will not allow foreign or regional powers to jeopardize freedom of navigation
through the Middle East’s waterways, including the Strait of Hormuz and the Bab al Mandab,
nor tolerate efforts by any country to dominate another—or the region—through military
buildups, incursions, or threats.
I guess it depends upon what you mean by "not allow" or "nor tolerate."
I typically lean more isolationist, but piracy is one of those areas where I think we <i>should</i> be using a big hammer. I would love for a large coalition of maritime nations to coalesce, but I fear that with so many fingers in the pie there'll be too many restrictions on the ROE. In the long run, it would be better to take out the facilities on land that are used to launch the Houthi operations than to waste all those anti-air rockets. Destroy their toys before they get to play with them. And that's not something I see anyone but the US, possibly Japan, being involved in. And I don't trust the Biden regime to have the fortitude to carry it off.
“Prosperity Guardian”...makes me want to wretch, absolutely, agree. Why not something more along the lines of "Operation Blackbeard"? Sounds slightly sinister and completely to the point.
OP Woodes Rogers
Egypt must pull billions every year for canal transits. Where is their navy?
my thoughts exactly
To be fair, I’ve been to Hurghada many times. Their “Navy” is less than impressive.
Surely we have a FREMM in the Egyptian Navy don't we?