When my son was in the electrical engineering program at a state engineering college he mentioned how many Chinese students were in the program. You see it everywhere and it does need to stop. We are training our enemy with our latest technology and techniques. Much of the tech that goes into our military equipment is first developed by teams of grad students working on basic research. Medical/biological studies is the same way, Duke University had a section of a large apartment complex rented just for the Chinese National grad students that attended the school. We are our own worst enemies.
I've told the story before about Youngstown State University. The same time it was becoming the "home school" of the National Advanced and Addictive Manufacturing hub.... it was bragging about recruiting Chinese students. The company I work for does additive Manufacturing so we work with them.
Buried in the employee handbook is a statement we cannot allow foreign nationals in the building without permission.
I went to school and took a lot of chemistry, physics, and other courses with Chinese students. They were, to a person, very much more meticulous than us - they treated it like a job. I suspect that, for many, it was. I was friends with quite a few. I get the "expose them to our free society" mind set, but it doesn't work. Either they were too tied up in familial traditions and obedience OR they were being paid to go to school by the CCP...eithe or. Then either they went home or were placed in our companies...and you can guess which ones they concentrated on.
So our misplaced strategy of social engagement was taken advantage of instead of being received in friendship. Evan as friends, it seemed we were cultivated just in case we ended up someplace they needed to get access to or get into. Maybe no all of them, but a lot of them. And that was 40 years ago.
No Chinese student just "sort of" attends a US university, let alone a top-flight research mill. The Chinese Communist Party runs a screening and vetting process that rivals BuPers Millington in terms of who is permitted to attend where, and how it gets paid for. Yes, sure... Children of party cadre and wealthy families often make it to the front of the line; but then again they are still smart ones, and invariably from reliable family backgrounds. Plus, more than a few PLA officers have attended US schools, often as not under pseudonyms. Indeed, there's ample research on this last point from US university alumni departments, which try to maintain contact with former students who simply vanish into the mists of China.
Good points. The trouble with our universities is that they see themselves as global not American institutions. Worse, they would back off at any attempt to restrict students from the PRC the moment someone shouted "racism" assuming they were even inclined to do so. The deeper problem is that Americans no longer believe in themselves or their country as a result of Marxist indoctrination in the form of 1619, CRT, DEI, etc. Don't believe me? Ask yourself what happened to the statues of Columbus, Thomas Jefferson, Robert E. Lee, Theodore Roosevelt, etc. ?
It is all about the $$ in Academia. The PRC students pay premium $$ in tuition, the PRC gives generous $$ gifts/grants to the University and individual Administrators/Professors. The $$ flow from the PRC into our Universities is prodigious. Our Fortune 500 companies eagerly employ these Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, etc. graduates since #1, they really are smart and #2, they are generally less expensive to employ than American graduates. Pogo knew of what he spoke- "We have met the enemy and it is us."
I worked at an R1 for 20 years. I always wondered if the intelligence community interviewed these students when they came over and whey they went back if for no other reason just to see what they were learning and other things about them. The ones I knew all were connected via father and siblings to the CCP hierarchy. When you could become friends which was difficult and they opened up you could learn a lot of interesting things about China.
The Chinese students culture was very different than ours or the Indians (another big group of foreign students that were interesting). Very smart folks (their best and brightest) but no one wanted to stand out from the pack, all wanting to blend in to the research groups. Though the hardest workers in the groups you had to poke and prod them to step out and do original work always deferring to whoever seemed to be the head of the group. I was told by one of the Chinese students that was cultural and in China it was dangerous to be original and unique. They grouped together and all of them knew everything about what all their peers were doing.
+1 on the "Not a spy" position. I spent 25 years testing recon UAVs - the heavy iron - and we are decidedly NOT "spies". Who we shoot.
It would help WRT STEM professionals to offer better pay and benefits. But even more, some respect in society. And making an effort to improve dating opportunities would not come amiss. Too many of those jobs are in the less attractive parts of the world - especially in Flight Test.
To offer a different perspective: The bigger problem is that US K-12 system does not produce enough interested and qualified students for the spots we have. Even our private schools and public schools in fancy zip code are pretty mediocre on the international level. STEM is not a socially or economically attractive career, and software and maybe biotech grab what little glamour there is.
There is also a mismatch between the technical subjects universities teach vs. what might be needed if the US were to try to regain manufacturing share -- look at the trouble staffing the AZ TSMC plant, or think of some of the precision, high-productivity manufacturing Germany has specialized in. This is an area where state and federal governments could use their influence more effectively.
Finally, keep in mind that the graduate research ecosystem provides a huge economic and technical advantage for the US. China is not attractive for many European or American technical students these days, but they are not the backwater of decades ago and they compete strongly across many research areas. In the past, their best have had to come to us, now many return home.
There aren't going to be any simple solutions here unless war breaks out. But meanwhile, I would focus more on how to fix the K-12 pipeline, and how to shape the technical student pool so that the US retains maximal benefits from its central position in most research areas.
Spot-on. Indeed, by about 6th grade or so, many US students have already fallen so far behind the global standard that they can never catch up. Much of US public ed is a total disaster zone. Baltimore public schools speak for themselves.
"Much of US public ed is a total disaster zone. Baltimore public schools speak for themselves."
All.
Chicago public schools, Denver public schools, Miami public schools,... None of them have a simple majority of students that meet the minimum level of mathematics proficiency.
"But meanwhile, I would focus more on how to fix the K-12 pipeline, and how to shape the technical student pool so that the US retains maximal benefits from its central position in most research areas."
It can't be fixed. There can be no magical Sputnik-moment that will put rigor back into the education establishment. There are no 20, 30, 40, or 50 year old teachers with strong foundations that are just dabbling with the views of John Dewey, who can be re-focused to teach technical excellence to our children. They are all long since dead. It has been too many generations of devolution. Just like war breaking out will not fix our deindustrialization. We've been on the path too long. There are not miners, ironworkers, machinists, electricians, shipyard workers, etc. who can form a corps of talent, let alone young people with the fundamentals necessary to be trained. Even if there is a Henry Kaiser somewhere in the U.S., it would be impossible to build shipyards from scratch in six months, let alone man them up. You've identified one of many problems, but we are screwed. It's only a matter of time until an adversary makes that obvious.
Per Warren Buffet, "when the tide goes out, we find out who was swimming without trunks." (something like that.) And on the points you make here, that tide is long gone.
Aside from the legitimate issues brought up in this post, it's nice to think the USN might have a successful program going that's quietly staffed by the likes of a Rochefort or a Layton. Particularly after all the issues we discuss here on a regular basis. Maybe there's some hope.
I wonder if the PLA is also behind the US in terms of Theater Anti-Submarine Warfare. Given the age of their theater commands, I'm betting they have some catching up to do.
When my son was in the electrical engineering program at a state engineering college he mentioned how many Chinese students were in the program. You see it everywhere and it does need to stop. We are training our enemy with our latest technology and techniques. Much of the tech that goes into our military equipment is first developed by teams of grad students working on basic research. Medical/biological studies is the same way, Duke University had a section of a large apartment complex rented just for the Chinese National grad students that attended the school. We are our own worst enemies.
I've told the story before about Youngstown State University. The same time it was becoming the "home school" of the National Advanced and Addictive Manufacturing hub.... it was bragging about recruiting Chinese students. The company I work for does additive Manufacturing so we work with them.
Buried in the employee handbook is a statement we cannot allow foreign nationals in the building without permission.
I went to school and took a lot of chemistry, physics, and other courses with Chinese students. They were, to a person, very much more meticulous than us - they treated it like a job. I suspect that, for many, it was. I was friends with quite a few. I get the "expose them to our free society" mind set, but it doesn't work. Either they were too tied up in familial traditions and obedience OR they were being paid to go to school by the CCP...eithe or. Then either they went home or were placed in our companies...and you can guess which ones they concentrated on.
So our misplaced strategy of social engagement was taken advantage of instead of being received in friendship. Evan as friends, it seemed we were cultivated just in case we ended up someplace they needed to get access to or get into. Maybe no all of them, but a lot of them. And that was 40 years ago.
No Chinese student just "sort of" attends a US university, let alone a top-flight research mill. The Chinese Communist Party runs a screening and vetting process that rivals BuPers Millington in terms of who is permitted to attend where, and how it gets paid for. Yes, sure... Children of party cadre and wealthy families often make it to the front of the line; but then again they are still smart ones, and invariably from reliable family backgrounds. Plus, more than a few PLA officers have attended US schools, often as not under pseudonyms. Indeed, there's ample research on this last point from US university alumni departments, which try to maintain contact with former students who simply vanish into the mists of China.
Give them Gender or Black Studies slots/scholarships. Good for the students and the Profs to see what real racism looks like
Good points. The trouble with our universities is that they see themselves as global not American institutions. Worse, they would back off at any attempt to restrict students from the PRC the moment someone shouted "racism" assuming they were even inclined to do so. The deeper problem is that Americans no longer believe in themselves or their country as a result of Marxist indoctrination in the form of 1619, CRT, DEI, etc. Don't believe me? Ask yourself what happened to the statues of Columbus, Thomas Jefferson, Robert E. Lee, Theodore Roosevelt, etc. ?
There are 200 million non-PRC Chinese in the world. Just promise them some of those spots.
It is all about the $$ in Academia. The PRC students pay premium $$ in tuition, the PRC gives generous $$ gifts/grants to the University and individual Administrators/Professors. The $$ flow from the PRC into our Universities is prodigious. Our Fortune 500 companies eagerly employ these Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, etc. graduates since #1, they really are smart and #2, they are generally less expensive to employ than American graduates. Pogo knew of what he spoke- "We have met the enemy and it is us."
And in a global economy why not take the most and pay the least?
Some of us are not in favor of cutting our own throat. Life is challenging enough without engaging in self-harm.
Lenin said the capitalist will sell you the rope to hang him. And if we don't have the money then we will borrow it from the capitalist
Foreign governments gave Harvard $218 million in less than two years.
https://www.thecollegefix.com/foreign-governments-gave-harvard-218-million-in-less-than-two-years/
Love that opening line about a windswept island. Makes Whidbey sound like a hardship tour and remote like Attu.
I worked at an R1 for 20 years. I always wondered if the intelligence community interviewed these students when they came over and whey they went back if for no other reason just to see what they were learning and other things about them. The ones I knew all were connected via father and siblings to the CCP hierarchy. When you could become friends which was difficult and they opened up you could learn a lot of interesting things about China.
The Chinese students culture was very different than ours or the Indians (another big group of foreign students that were interesting). Very smart folks (their best and brightest) but no one wanted to stand out from the pack, all wanting to blend in to the research groups. Though the hardest workers in the groups you had to poke and prod them to step out and do original work always deferring to whoever seemed to be the head of the group. I was told by one of the Chinese students that was cultural and in China it was dangerous to be original and unique. They grouped together and all of them knew everything about what all their peers were doing.
"You want a Pell Grant or no interest loan"? Enter STEM or technical training.
And we'll probably need to lay down some more lines of acoustic sensors, won't we?
NAVFAC Coos Head.
+1 on the "Not a spy" position. I spent 25 years testing recon UAVs - the heavy iron - and we are decidedly NOT "spies". Who we shoot.
It would help WRT STEM professionals to offer better pay and benefits. But even more, some respect in society. And making an effort to improve dating opportunities would not come amiss. Too many of those jobs are in the less attractive parts of the world - especially in Flight Test.
"... " but we can stop making it worse." Yeah, we can; but we won't.
Lenin was a smart guy.
To offer a different perspective: The bigger problem is that US K-12 system does not produce enough interested and qualified students for the spots we have. Even our private schools and public schools in fancy zip code are pretty mediocre on the international level. STEM is not a socially or economically attractive career, and software and maybe biotech grab what little glamour there is.
There is also a mismatch between the technical subjects universities teach vs. what might be needed if the US were to try to regain manufacturing share -- look at the trouble staffing the AZ TSMC plant, or think of some of the precision, high-productivity manufacturing Germany has specialized in. This is an area where state and federal governments could use their influence more effectively.
Finally, keep in mind that the graduate research ecosystem provides a huge economic and technical advantage for the US. China is not attractive for many European or American technical students these days, but they are not the backwater of decades ago and they compete strongly across many research areas. In the past, their best have had to come to us, now many return home.
There aren't going to be any simple solutions here unless war breaks out. But meanwhile, I would focus more on how to fix the K-12 pipeline, and how to shape the technical student pool so that the US retains maximal benefits from its central position in most research areas.
Spot-on. Indeed, by about 6th grade or so, many US students have already fallen so far behind the global standard that they can never catch up. Much of US public ed is a total disaster zone. Baltimore public schools speak for themselves.
And the two years of Zoom non learning due to covid has only made things worse.
two years of Zoom non learning due to [the autocratic and wholly unnecessary response to] covid ...
"Much of US public ed is a total disaster zone. Baltimore public schools speak for themselves."
All.
Chicago public schools, Denver public schools, Miami public schools,... None of them have a simple majority of students that meet the minimum level of mathematics proficiency.
"But meanwhile, I would focus more on how to fix the K-12 pipeline, and how to shape the technical student pool so that the US retains maximal benefits from its central position in most research areas."
It can't be fixed. There can be no magical Sputnik-moment that will put rigor back into the education establishment. There are no 20, 30, 40, or 50 year old teachers with strong foundations that are just dabbling with the views of John Dewey, who can be re-focused to teach technical excellence to our children. They are all long since dead. It has been too many generations of devolution. Just like war breaking out will not fix our deindustrialization. We've been on the path too long. There are not miners, ironworkers, machinists, electricians, shipyard workers, etc. who can form a corps of talent, let alone young people with the fundamentals necessary to be trained. Even if there is a Henry Kaiser somewhere in the U.S., it would be impossible to build shipyards from scratch in six months, let alone man them up. You've identified one of many problems, but we are screwed. It's only a matter of time until an adversary makes that obvious.
Per Warren Buffet, "when the tide goes out, we find out who was swimming without trunks." (something like that.) And on the points you make here, that tide is long gone.
Warren Buffet? Sounds more like Jimmy Buffet
Speaking of Math.
2023-4135 Chinese students enrolled at University of Washington in Seattle.
Out of state tuition 2022-23 school year, $41,997.
Nice payday. $173,657,595.
No wonder the university recruits Chinese students.
Aside from the legitimate issues brought up in this post, it's nice to think the USN might have a successful program going that's quietly staffed by the likes of a Rochefort or a Layton. Particularly after all the issues we discuss here on a regular basis. Maybe there's some hope.
Deport every Chinese citizen in the US, NOW!
Yeah, right. We can't deport those crossing the southern border - and that includes the Chinese nationals. You think we are going to deport those paying the salaries of university professors? https://thediplomat.com/2023/06/why-are-more-and-more-chinese-migrants-risking-their-lives-to-cross-the-us-southern-border/
I wonder if the PLA is also behind the US in terms of Theater Anti-Submarine Warfare. Given the age of their theater commands, I'm betting they have some catching up to do.