96 Comments
Jul 20, 2023Liked by CDR Salamander

Interesting excerpts from the hearing. The comment from the Army Superintendent that they group entrants as “leaders”, “scholars” and “athletes” seems like a warning light, though. Certainly we need educated officers, and we have been blessed as a nation with fine officers who were also scholars, but attempting to segment cadets in such a way seems odd. Does this suggest that West Point believes one group should not have the attributes of the other two? Shouldn’t every West Point graduate be an above average leader?

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I would think "leaders" (or perhaps better possessing the talents to become) is one of those "givens" that belongs to each candidate.

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that's a defense of the process that's been in place for at least 40 years when I was involved.

- normal appts

- jocks

- desired minorities (in my day this included women)

- enlisted soldiers

- ? Legacies?

bet the minorities and leaders pool overlap a lot

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ALL mids are supposed to be Leaders to begin with. Why are we now differentiating?

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Sadly, the system stopped being merit-based a long time ago. I started going to crap in the 1960s and hasn't gotten any worse. This was an issue in 1971. This excerpt is a fictional movie but it reflected a real conflict:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rcIJIWqYmo

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Jul 20, 2023Liked by CDR Salamander

Another great post, Shipmate.

Worked at Navy Recruiting Command almost a decade ago at the oh-6 level. Goal setting was standard fare. Sometimes by gender (I recall either CNO or CNP pushed out a goal for 25% female accessions at one point, well above the typical 15-18%). Sometimes by ethnicity (blacks, hispanics, PAI, etc) and often certain professions (chaplains, doctors, lawyers). And yes, they specified "these are goals, not quotas."

By saying that, I think they were trying to communicate that it wasn't legally hard and fast. But if a 1- or 2-star tells you it's a "goal" that becomes the quota by default. Whatever interests your boss should fascinate you, right? No doubt that works all the way up The Chain. The junior Flags were only reflecting senior Flag intentions, and ultimately Congressional or Executive interest.

Anyway, around that same time my son tried to enlist in the Navy as an intel specialist. He had good grades, was TS-eligible, did well on his aptitude test, and obviously knew Navy culture from growing up in my house. I helped out by calling our local recruiter, and set up a visit with the Chief there. Even went with him.

He never got a second call. Ended up in the Army, where he did well. But my time at CNRC told me all I needed to know about why they weren't interested in him.

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Similar story from my son-in-law, an Enlisted Navy recruiter who recruited officers in the Pacific Northwest. He had a half dozen White males with STEM degrees lined up for the Nuclear Power program. Couldn't put any in until he recruited two Hispanic females. The STEM guys eventually found meaningful employment elsewhere. Similarly, about 35 years ago I tried to get 2 of my Filipino brothers-in law who had Green Cards into the Navy. The recruiter in California said they had their quota of Filipino's. I told my B-i-L's to go to another recruiter and to identify as Hispanic, as The Philippines was under 400 years of Spanish rule, so the probability that they were about 1% Hispanic was pretty good. The Navy snapped them both up. One did 4 years as a BT. The other retired after 31 years as a SWO qualified CWO4 Engineer.

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Clever. clips that have no volume, impossible to hear. Way to go

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Jul 20, 2023Liked by CDR Salamander

Only impossible to hear when operator error comes into play. Nice work Earl.

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Jul 20, 2023Liked by CDR Salamander

Did you check your hearing aid? 🤣

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How do these GOFO's sleep at night?

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How do these MOFO's sleep at night, Oyster? Like any careerist, safe in the knowledge that he has secured the best price for his soul.

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Jul 22, 2023·edited Jul 22, 2023

They sleep well, in clean fluffy sheets and bedding, eating fantastic food with servants, often with follow on employment in the industry, paid for by tax payer money, as they obfuscate, and circumvent their Constitutional oath.

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In the mid-90’s I went to USNA (that’s ‘anus’, spelled sideways, sort of) for a week of BGO training. Coincidentally it occurred on the 20th anniversary of my I-Day. Anyway, this “goal” horse puckey was alive and sick then.

When the Admissions Office chick was briefing us on the racial composition of the Class of 1999, a BGO in our group asked if this was a quota. She quickly replied, “No sir, these are not quotas. They are goals.”

You have to wonder: do these jackwagons actually believe their own double-speak?

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Believing your own double-speak is the only way to avoid cognitive dissonance, that is, they are trying to avoid the acceptance of two diametrically opposed concepts. A rational person would seek out Truth (capital T) and make his actions follow that path. The words “rational” and “progressive” are mutually exclusive.

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And that’s exactly what these leftards suffer from: cognitive dissonance. They truly are mentally ill.

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What-IF “T-R-U-S-T were (yet) another acronym where:

T = Truth / R = Rational / U = Understanding / S = ? / T = ??

OOODA-Loop feedback requested with alternative keywords!

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they've mastered the art of NewSpeak, most particularly doublethink.

My namesake understood the Left very well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink

"Doublethink is a process of indoctrination in which subjects are expected to simultaneously accept two conflicting beliefs as truth, often at odds with their own memory or sense of reality.[1] Doublethink is related to, but differs from, hypocrisy.

George Orwell coined the term doublethink (as part of the fictional language of Newspeak) in his 1949 dystopian novel Nineteen Eighty-Four.[2] In the novel, its origins within the citizenry is unclear; while it could be partly a product of Big Brother's formal brainwashing programs,[i] the novel explicitly shows people learning doublethink and Newspeak due to peer pressure and a desire to "fit in," or gain status within the Party—to be seen as a loyal Party Member. In the novel, for someone to even recognize—let alone mention—any contradiction within the context of the Party line is akin to blasphemy, and could subject that person to disciplinary action and the instant social disapproval of fellow Party Members."

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As a NAVOCS-OCUI2 (A-703 Cohort), USNA-BGO acronyms were sparse:

https://www.acronymfinder.com/Military-and-Government/BGO.html

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Jul 20, 2023·edited Jul 20, 2023

(Hah! NAVOCS-OCUICS, Class of June 5 1981 here. Short stay---long story. June 5th was my birthday...I turned 33 and was an EWCS(SW) who reported to OCS in Newport, RI and promptly became a Midshipman OCUICS. We marched double-time everywhere. Were fitted out in wash khaki's. We kept one pair and the rest went to the tailor. I wore the same uniform for 4 days in the summer heat. Was constipated for 4 days. We were allowed 5 minutes every morning to poop, shower and shave. On the 4th day I had to poop. Went in the toilet stall and tried to squeeze out 4 days worth of backlog. Was just about finished when the DI was banging on the toilet stall door yelling at me that my time was up. I grabbed some toilet paper and made just one quick wipe and then fell in to march back to my room in the barracks. I had poop all over my fingers on my right hand. Had not shaved nor brushed my teeth. Back in my room I wiped my hand as best I could on my shoeshine rag but I reeked of poop. All of us fell out in the passageway for morning uniform inspection. There I was...wearing a 4 days dirty, wrinkled set of khaki's with crusty salt sweat stains, blisters on my feet, no shave, reeking of B.O. and poop, bad breath and my ass was raw and thighs chaffed from all the marching. The DI passed me and said "Sat" and moved on. WTF? I went back to my room to make my rack and decided instead on something else. I went to my door and hollered, "Request permission to speak to the DI, Sir". He came and I said, "Get me the eff out of here before I go stark raving bug-f__k", then I dismissed myself, ignored the DI's sputtering and went to wipe my butt, clean my right hand, shave, brush my teeth and take a long, long hot shower. About the time the rest of the company was getting back from breakfast I was dressed to the 9's in my CNT khakis, 4 rows of ribbons, Enlisted Surface Warfare pin, Senior Chief collar devices and hat, and heard Midshipman screaming "Attention on Deck". I knew I was making the right decision to disenroll. I walked out of there with a smile. During my exit interview some red-headed GURL lady LCDR tried to chew me out for wasting the Navy's time. She told me that I could never again apply for an officer program. What did I care? I was free of OCS and still had my 2 college degrees and some renewed self-respect.

Then what happened? Orders to a Reserve Center in East Gebbus, Nebraska? No. I got orders as an E-8 to an O-4 billet as Assistant Electronic Warfare Officer at CincPacFlt and enroute found out that I had been selected for CWO2. Had forgotten that I had applied for that the same time as I did for OCS. CincPacFlt was a wonderful and fun tour. Got to watch the Falklands War in real time from the War Room. It was really odd being an "Action Officer" as an Enlisted guy when the other A.O.'s were post-CO tour Surface, Sub, Aviator, SEAL Commanders or Captains. 4 years later I applied for LDO and got picked. My hat is off to every Naval Officer who did it the hard way...OCS. You guys are made of sterner stuff.)

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Jul 21, 2023·edited Jul 21, 2023

It worked out well for you. It sounds like your DIs were incompetent. I don't know how it was in 1981, but in 1982 when I went to Newport OCS the "senior" class of OCS acted as DIs for the "junior" class. Since any class was a mixed bag of college grads with no military experience and prior enlisted of all services, their experience of pushing troops was variable. More recently they brought back the USMC DIs.

Our classes were large and recruited to fill the "600 Ship Navy." A surprising number of Air Force NCOs with degrees who were too old for AFOCS, had no route to warrant or LDO and had topped out at E-7 in their small-community MOSs. My section had one Navy Chief.

As a prior Army sergeant who had gone to Basic and the Airborne school, I knew some of the styles and methods of drill and indoctrination, but it was tough for me to keep a straight face. I hope I gave those juniors adequate time to shit.

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My orders to OCS read that I was to report by midnight on Friday, 5 June 1981. My 33rd birthday. I reported in CNT khaki's with ribbons and pin. Because a sailor never reports in to a new command in civvies. That got me off on the wrong foot. Was told I was an Officer Candidate, not some kind of Chief...that I was out of uniform. I did not argue. This was my second bootcamp. I knew the drill, just like you did, Thomas. . Bootcamp was going to be easier the second time around. During my short stint at OCS my "DI's" were the upper classmen...most with 8+ weeks of Naval Service. They did the best they could, considering. I had 16 years in and was an E-8. I recall my "DI" calling me out in front of the whole formation, all the Company's that made up the lower class. He announced to the formation, "This is Officer Candidate Flowers. He used to be a Senior Chief, has 16 years of Navy experience. He will demonstrate to all of you how to execute an About Face movement. Mister Flowers....Ah-ten-HUT! About...FACE!!!" Easy-peasy. I got this nailed. ...then, instead of executing this simple maneuver, I seized up with doubt and began thinking instead of doing...realized I had to do something right now. So I pivoted on the wrong foot. The DI wailed, "Jesus! There is no hope for any of you people. Get back in rank, Flowers." I was amazed that I did not bleed out from the massive body blush I had. I did my walk of shame, looking for a rock to crawl under, thinking Ecce Homo, realizing I was a man with clay feet. Later in many ways I became a better man (if not an 1110) for having been humbled. My consolation prizes were 7121 and later 6121. Several months after my failure at OCS and after finding out I had been selected for CWO I called my detailer. As it turned out, he was a guy I knew when I was a Chief and he was a Senior Chief. Larry owed me a big favor. Larry was now an LDO (elex) LT. I asked Larry to send me to a OHP Frigate so that I could drive ships and get bridge time to earn a SWO pin. He said all OpTech CWO's went to Amphibs or Carriers to serve as assistant CICO or Commo for their first tour. I had to remind Larry of the favor he owed me. He said he could wrangle me, an OpTech CWO, into an LDO (elex) billet. I thanked him profusely and said, "And also Larry, I need to get to that Frigate quick...no Knife & Fork school." Larry said everybody had to go to Knife & Fork school (CWO/LDO bootcamp). I told him about my plight at OCS and Larry caved out of sympathy...and he really owed me. I hated putting Larry through all that, the hard sell he had to do to whoever was his boss. But there was just no way I wanted to attend a 3rd bootcamp. When I eventually reported to the FFG my CO was an O-6, a grade higher than most because this was the third OHP Frigate commissioned. I think I was his first CWO. He liked me. That never hurts. We were in an SRA in Todd Shipyard in San Pedro...no way we could get underway for several months so the Captain made me CDO and six months later a Fleet OOD. I am eternally grateful to Larry and to Captain Ruff. I owe them.

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They have mastered duckspeak and crimestop, while being accomplished in doublehtink.

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Bigger Picture.... USA and USAF need to find purpose after GWOT. Playing the diversity game is the only way they think they can stay relevant. USN has always been more diverse like the VADM said so they can play the game without actually playing it. Totally unimpressed by the LT GENs especially USMA.

Two more years........

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CyberCommand’s led by non-USMA #TrueNorth LTGEN Paul Nakasone:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_M._Nakasone?wprov=sfti1

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A Fighting Saint! I could have hung out with his ROTC unit, but I didn't want to warp Cadet minds as a fleet experienced E-5.

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Oh, no, I would have been across town at St. Cloud State. St. Johns, St. Benedicts, and St. Cloud State share an Army ROTC program, known as the Fighting Saints.

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I imagine the Congressional hearings for the FOGO’s after the next TF Smith or Savo Island will be a bit more intense. DoD PAOs might consider better preparing their leads when the time comes for Lucy to ‘splain what and how it happened.

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Very good to see the covers finally being pulled back publically. I do have a (very tiny) bit of sympathy for the FOGOs. I am positive they have received absolute marching orders from the "Administration" minions above them, they are thus faced with marching along or defying orders which even they, in all probability realize are deleterious to the military they are part of. The honorable thing to do would be to put their stars on the table and publically resign. That is not happening. There's a quote somewhere about moral fiber which would seem to be appropriate.

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Some of them were happy enough to ignore orders to stop the DIE/CRT nonsense a few years ago. I fear most are true believers at this point. Everybody capable of and willing to engage in critical thought has been marshalled out.

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May be. For sure there will be a lot of slow walking and sabotage should the next Administration issue such orders. Mostly by civilian staph pukes, I suspect.

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True. The over-population of civilian staff is in some ways even more concerning than the overpopulation of GOFOs

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You can’t claim to be a leader unless you take risks to accomplish a job or to take care of your people. These guys are politicians in uniform, nothing more. After the Afghanistan and Iraq debacles and no one lost their jobs shows these guys are not leaders.

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To whom or to what is their oath? Is DEI Constitutional? Is merit based better than quota based when looking at the efficacy of fighting, winning, and warring? No, they clearly made a choice to ignore their oath. COVID response showed they are more than willing to ignore law, precedent, their oath, morals and ethics to just get another star.

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Given that SCOTUS specifically exempted the US service academies from its ruling against affirmative action, that should give some indication that SCOTUS thinks that the US service academies are employing it. It will be up to Congress to end affirmative action at US service academies.

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SCOTUS left the question unanswered until someone brings a case against a service academy and the Solicitor General's position on the matter is directly tested.

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/LSB/LSB10893

"Explaining that the Solicitor General had argued that race-based admissions programs further compelling government interests in diversity at the nation’s military academies, the Court stated that these institutions were not parties and that its opinion did “not address the issues, in light of the potentially distinct interest that military academies may present.” Overall, the majority left unclear how much room, if any, exists for affirmative action in admissions programs going forward. "

The service academies made their positions known through the JCS amicus brief.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/20/20-1199/232531/20220801183329801_20-1199%20and%2021-707_Brief%20of%20Amici%20Curiae%20Former%20Military%20Leaders.pdf

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Jul 20, 2023Liked by CDR Salamander

My Canoe U roommate was a laid back surfer from New Jersey who shocked us by 1.) service selecting Marine Ground and 2.) excelling at TBS and branch selecting Infantry. He did two tours in Iraq, including one up on the Syrian border where he saw some heavy stuff. For his shore tour he wanted to be close to family in Jersey so he accepted orders to the academy as an Admissions Officer. Sometime into his tour we got together for dinner and were catching up when I asked him what he thought of working in admissions. His cheery demeanor suddenly changed and he looked me in eye and with a straight face said – I f’ing hate it, I wish I was back in Iraq! He’d had his fill of chasing “unicorn” applicants and dealing with helicopter parents and managed to negotiate an early transfer to get back to the FMF.

Great grilling of the FOGOs - I only wish Jim Webb could have joined panel.

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author

Webb had a chance to do something about this when he was in the Senate and then on the board at USNA. He didn’t do squat.

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Concur. I really expected more of him. I read A Sense of Honor in high school and although I'd decided much earlier to go, the book solidified my intent.

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Every single one of the people I expected to to something failed or showed they were fellow travelers. Mattis, Webb, McMaster, etc.

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Now you are just making me depressed.

I really don't understand where these guys are coming from. Gen. Kelley did a press conference where he talked about escort of the fallen, and his son, and the movie "Taking Chance," which really was outstanding. In some respects, I know in my heart he "gets it." But in other areas, the GOFOs simply and unequivocally DO NOT, Kelley included. I can not understand their ability to work against the elected President while thinking they are true to their oath. They are not.

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Jul 21, 2023·edited Jul 21, 2023

Sadly you’re right - not sure if he mellowed with age or was just too busy chasing down the bigger fish of the era (that Post 9/11 G.I. Bill is pretty sweet). But fear not - the USNA Red Shirts didn’t forget his past transgressions and deprived him of his richly deserved Distinguished Alumni award!

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Need a "Don't like" button, aimed at GOFOs, not our esteemed host.

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I'd fire every flag officer. President DeSantis, you're up . . .

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Lay off the jock bashing. If we truly wanted to improve education we would make athletics mandatory, like reading. There are lessons sport teaches that can be found nowhere else. Getting knocked on your ass, and having to get back up and run the next play is a life lesson that comes into play over and over and over. There is a cliche that England won its wars on the playing fields of Oxford and Eton. It is a cliche that has a great deal of truth to it.

I had a chance to observe a Naval Academy athletic team at a track meet. I was watching the decathlon. In each of the ten events, the athlete was being coached by the midshipman who specialized in the event. The pole vaulters coached the kids as they vaulted, the hurdlers warmed them up for the 110s. These kids were impressive. Track puts enormous pressure on the athletes, and these kids handled it with style and grace. One vaulter got “the yips,” and was on the cusp of failing his third try, his two schoolmates pulled him aside, got his head straight, and he cleared the bar and went on to second place in that event.

The problem is not athletics, the problem is football and basketball. These are no longer games for student athletes, but, farm systems run by corporate conglomerates. Gridiron football is not a real sport, its entertainment, like professional wresting. Tennis, swimming, soccer, track and baseball are real sports and the kids who compete in them. Colleges should support athletes, we should have more student / athletes, not less. Our service academies should field a team in every sport they can; hurling, hockey and bowling included. The midshipmen, and women, that I saw competing at Div. I track were outstanding examples.

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Get rid of team sports at service academies all together. While we're at it, let's bring back pankration and the hoplitodromos.

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Nonsense. Drop the kids that can't play a sport. If you can't play a sport competitively you have no business being an officer.

Do midshipmen still box?

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"If you can't play a sport competitively you have no business being an officer."

There are lots of historical 4-Star admirals who failed to live up to your minimal standard oif team sports leadership. Can we remove all of their statues and rename the various halls attributed to them?

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I call bullshit. Who says these guys didn't play sports in High School, or interscholastic at their academy? At the USNA, midshipmen are required to box, which is the purest sport of them all, so if any of your 4 stars graduated from that school, they played a sport competitively.

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Define "competitively".

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I define it as a competition where results are accurately compiled and results count. A track meet, a baseball season, a tennis tournament.

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NCAA dropped boxing. If you're not an NCAA athlete, then you are in a social club with exercise.

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Tell that to a University Rugby Club, they are as much athletes as anyone on the gridiron team. Crew clubs routinely compete at an Olympic level.

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I guess that disqualifies Audie Murphy.

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Nice straw man. I said team sports. At the NCAA level football, basketball, and baseball are skewed by big money and alumni. Soccer and hockey are headed that way. Recruitment revolves around a candidate's skills on the field and filling gaps on the team, not whether or not they are promising officer material. These are the top shelf team sports that service academies should drop like hot potatoes.

I guess that you must be very pleased with our latest CNO nominee checks the box with your criteria. While not a NCAA rower "real student-athlete" as an undergrad, she did participate in Northwestern's student-run crew club. I suspect that the Northwestern School of Journalism and the University of Phoenix are even more pleased with her appointment given the national prominence that this will bring. The University of Phoenix especially.

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Annapolis could field a Div. 2 gridiron football team. In the lower division being a “student” is far more important than being an “athlete.”

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While I dislike the politically correct attitudes of many officials, I also respectfully disagree with Commander Salamander to some degree. There really is racism and sexism in US military institutions, although much less so than when I experienced it over half a century ago. The very language used by soldiers reveals this. So does the rate of reported crimes (which I stipulate is a fraction of the real number). Congress and the brass are not wrong to want to correct these problems. It isn't easy - Canada gave up on its airborne entirely because it was not able to reform. In my view, toleration of misconduct for racial or sex reasons is a bigger readiness issue than trying to address them. The best path to solving a problem is to face it directly. It is best to lead by example. Do not tolerate racist, sexist or similar speech. Confront every instance immediately. Calmly, explaining why it is a problem for force capability. I found it possible to learn to speak and write in a gender neutral way without playing politically correct games - decades ago. Make it clear that there will be real consequences for even just speaking disrespectfully of other soldiers. And investigate every assertion of misconduct. Strait up out of the Law for Seagoing Officers: "any person, military, civilian, adult or child" who asserts misconduct is to be taken seriously. If you act to that standard, you will be trusted enough that victims will report to you.

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Jul 20, 2023·edited Jul 20, 2023

That is not a well thought out solution. So, if a perception by one soldier,

sailor or Marine is that they were disresepcted they can now open an

investigation on a superior? Come on, think this through my friend. This just makes even more hypersensitive troops and does nothing for cohesion, readiness or capabilities.

As for racism, I am sorry, but this is just not true. While it still exists everywhere

to some extent there no institutional racism in the US Military and there is certainly far less individual racism than ever, this is not the 1950's.

"The very language used by soldiers reveals this."-what does this even mean? Examples? How does it prove your point? What context?

On sexism. Is it sexist to want equal treatment and yet still witness on a

daily basis the bending over backwards to accommodate every whim possible to treat women preferentially?

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" The very language used by soldiers reveals this. "

Show me.

My service also dates back 50 years, and I do not recall any "systemic" racism. There were racist individuals of all races, just as there are throughout society, but it was mainly of the "don't ask, don't tell" variety. Open racism was frowned on both officially and unofficially.

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"Do not tolerate racist, sexist or similar speech. Confront every instance immediately."

I am reporting the service academies for promulgating racist beliefs like 'white fragility' and 'white supremacy' and anything that includes 'equity' instead of 'equality'

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I thought a purpose of the Congressional Nomination process was to ensure the officer corps was staffed by a wide swath of qualified applicants, representing the entire nation. Of course, I'm being overly idealistic.

At this point, I would ban all 'goals' as subordinate to the need to fill the force. It's stupid to limit who you can take when the forces need bodies

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For some information on what Sailors are saying about racism and sexism in the Navy, as opposed to Senators, here is the Health of the Force report for 2022: https://www.mynavyhr.navy.mil/Portals/55/Reference/Publications/CY2022_HOF_FINAL_8_Feb_23.pdf?ver=NfT0FRHSJlgEtWk0mE22lQ%3D%3D

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Alot to unpack. Figure 5 is interesting as the percentages mirror each other by gender and not paygrade.

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There is nothing in there that says anything negative on racism, sexism, etc….being a problem in the Navy.

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Jul 21, 2023·edited Jul 21, 2023

Page 8 shows the graph and comments on racism and sexism. “survey results showed that many Sailors felt that racism and sexism were a problem. Only 38% agreed that “Racism is not a problem” and 27% that “sexism is not a problem”. This perception was more prevalent among Black and Female Sailors, who were more likely to doubt the sincerity of the Navy’s inclusion efforts”. The graph shows the breakdown.

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Yup, I know and still nothing to indicate it is a significant problem. The perception females concerned with discrimination shows me that there are two different competing realities and if you'd like we can go over the multitude of examples of preferential treatment women are given in all of the branches from PT scores, to quotas at the academies (every warfare branch has a set aside for a female), to obviously grossly obese females not

getting called out on their appearance, pregnancy, etc.....You would literally have to be deaf, dumb and blind to think that women are not given preferential treatment in the current day military.

On the racism issue, is

it a perception? The majority do not think even subtle forms or it are

tolerated, so you have to ask yourself if this is a perception, messaging issue or an actual issue of racism still being an issue in the Navy? Again, I have over 20 years in and I am still in, have not seen actual incidents of discrimination within the service itself and have no knowledge of anything

under any policy or under the UCMJ that is discriminatory. Can you point to an example of either?

When you look at the incidents of complaints on page 11 they are very small for an organization the size of the Navy. Why the disconnect between perceptions and reality?

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I agree the numbers are small - but not insignificant and often underreported. As for one policy: https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2022/04/05/how-the-navys-beard-policy-discriminates-against-black-sailors/

I’m happy to continue this conversation with you in person or on LI - don’t want to argue on Sal’s front porch. My only recommendation would be to buy a few of your female and minority shipmates a cup of coffee and see how their perception/reality compares to yours. Looking forward to the conversation!

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Haha! That’s not really an example, it’s an attempt to use issues of skin care to try and argue that it’s a discriminatory practice. It’s a borderline straw man since beards were allowed in the days of segregation and not now. You were in and you know darn well why Zumwalt and others had folks shave. Are you now trying to argue that we have become more racists because of this? The policy is not an intentional discriminatory policy and you know it. If that’s your metric, then all physical training tests are intentionally discriminatory against all men since women have to meet lower standards and get higher scores.

On your recommendation, it happens all the time with minority sailors, with females? No. Why? Due to the hypersensitivity of both leadership, policies and perceptions, you’d be a fool to sit down alone with a female and discuss issues without having witnesses. I’d really challenge you to look at the disparity in treatment that is preferential towards women. If you don’t want to see it, something that is so evident, to include policy, statements, practices, etc..then I fear I cannot help you.

I’d love to continue the discussion too, it’s what these comments sections are for after all.

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Sorry you feel that way, I didn’t mean to imply that the (beard) policy is intentionally racist, only that it has a disproportionate impact. Yes, men and women are different physically and some standards reflect that - no argument there but not sure that’s the same thing. I’d like to continue the conversation but I’m not a fan of pseudonyms - my writings and opinions are mine, open for all to see. Otherwise take care.

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"...and often underreported. "

And how often overreported, as in Bubba Wallaces's infamous noose?

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"As for one policy:..."

Horse hockey. The solution to that has been around for over 50 years that I know of. To paraphrase Joe Biden, "If you don't know about Magic Shave, then you ain't black!". I learned about razor bumps in basic training by watching the black guys "shave" without using a razor. No waiver needed.

https://www.sirhare.com/blogs/shaving/magic-shave-powder

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Ah, perception.

I will take this opportunity to tout a Tom Lehrer song, "Smut".

"All books can be indecent books

Though recent books are bolder,

For filth (I'm glad to say) is in

The mind of the beholder.

When correctly viewed,

Everything is lewd.

(I could tell you things about peter pan,

And the wizard of oz, there's a dirty old man!)"

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"This perception was more prevalent among Black and Female Sailors, "

What else would you expect from folks who have been trained from birth to see racism everywhere? From what I read today even sleep problems are caused by racism.

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