Just thinking out loud. LCS's have Blue and Gold crews, right? But the LCS seem to be hard-pressed to deploy for long periods without the need for maintenance, watchstanding and relief from crew fatigue. Why not make them single crewed and up the day-to-day manning by combining a higher number from Blue/Gold team total numbers? The excess can man what ever passes for SIMA nowadays and do maintenance on LCS's in their homeports. They might get some extended life and use out of these ships, somewhere, somehow. That, or just decomm them all and send the crews elsewhere.
They have also said something about getting training and qualification done on shore since they don't have time when aboard? Otherwise sounding bananas.
why not considering the Module crew areas ought to be empty. Am I correct in thinking that beyond the ability to take a helo on board, none of the original modules are deployed?
I think they have what amounts to the surface warfare module aboard. The 2 30mm Mk 46 that can't elevate high enough for UAVs, and the 11m RHIBs. It may or may not have a Hellfire module. From what I can see we haven't been purchasing them in the budget like they will ever happen. We also were only buying survivability upgrades for the LCS-2 class at 1 set per year and I don't think we have any requested in FY25.
My first ship, a DE, had 7 crappers, 8 urinals and about 6 showers for the crew. I have seen racks stack 4 high. There's always hot bunking. Lord, you have never seen a traffic jam like just after quarters, when the only head open was aft. 4 crappers, no partitions, knee-to-knee and hip-to-hip. I've been on a severely minimum manned ship, an NRF FFG. Any extra warm body who was trainable would have been welcome. For 2 years we never saw our promised TAR's (YN/PN's being force converted to ET, FTG and snipes) and the SELRES (good people all) only augmented one weekend a month (at sea) and two weeks every year (at sea). We were stretched so-o-o thin when our SELRES wasn't there.
Crew fatigue is a real thing. It can get ugly in regard to retention, morale, mental health and discipline. People will rise to the occasion, like they did in WWII, but when they know they are being used and neglected by bean counter wonks in D.C. it all goes into the crapper. Respect & loyalty is a two-way street.
Racks are not the only issue when it comes to crew. Everything we know about the LCS is bad; it wouldn't surprise me to find out they lacked the ability to make sufficient fresh water to drink; and the crew was sucking down cans of water out of the lifeboats to survive.
I would ask that someone with current experience chime in here, but my memory is that one or both classes of LCS already has a shipping container “berthing in a box” onboard because - surprise, surprise - the equipment requires more maintainers than initially thought.
While, ASW, ASUW, and MCM modules were difficult to produce, I'd have to believe we could still come up with a kitchen and a few berthing "modules" if we tried.
Just listened to the Podcast from USNI News. They are going to single crews and the crew size is going to 112~. I hate to say they have any value... but they are here. SO if we and throw a few Drones and maybe even the SEA-DOME (it appears to be small enought and light enough to fit onboard) they might be useful in the waters around Yeman.
I was thinking the LCS platforms might be better transferred to the US Coast Guard for deployment to the Caribbean, where hostile air activity should be at a minimum.
Don't let the cartels hear you say that. I'm sure they are paying close attention to what is going on in Ukraine. The future of naval forces must assume hostile air in the form of drones may exist wherever they are deployed.
Don't let the cartels hear you say that. I'm sure they have paid careful attention to both drone use in Ukraine and what the Houthis are doing in the Red Sea. There are no future naval deployments where the lack of hostile air can be assumed. Either put adequate AAW on LCS or scrap them.
Here's why the partisan gridlock becomes so frustrating. How do I make the case to my Representative? All he seem to care about is yelling about immigration.
No. Too much yelling, not enough action. Acta non verba.
You want to get me fired up? Immigration has Judges. They are not real Judges, they are more like French Magistrates. They have to process the paperwork before a migrant gets in, or gets kicked out. We don't have enough Judges. We have not had enough Judges for years. Everybody knows we don't have enough Judges to process the cases. We can't deport folks because we don't have a Judge to sign the deportation order.
It's the freaking spurting arterial blood of the immigration system. Everyone know the answer is put pressure on the wound, and hire a boatload of more Judges, yet we do nothing! So no, I'm not impressed by a Congressman who says things and does nothing.
But, my larger point is, where is the Congressional leadership in the pressing issue of shipbuilding?
More judges, appointed by bleeding heart liberals, will just mean more permanent irrevocable green cards issued. What we need is enforcement of current laws, that is: arrests and deportations.
Dale, they are far from "bleeding heart liberals," they are hard-nosed immigration officers. They are not Judges as most folks think of Judges, they are closer to a old-school police desk sergeant. The reason they are important is that they are the folks who order deportation. Hiring more immigration judges would result in more deportations; immediately.
You want deportations? Great! You still need someone to order the deportation. That person is an immigration judge. We could increase the number of deportations, and the speed with which they are deported by simply hiring enough immigration judges to deal with the number of people whose claims need to be decided. If you think of them as "deportation order signers" would you object to having enough of them to sign orders in all the pending cases? Biden proposed hiring 100 "deportation order signers" and their associated staff. Republicans said, "no."
The fact of the matter is that the Republican party does not want to solve any of our immigration problems they just want to shout about them. Right now we have 1000 people processing asylum claims. It takes years for the claims to be decided. Biden proposed hiring 4,300 more, quadrupling the number of adjudicators. This would move cases quicker and get folks who don't belong here out faster. Republicans said, "no."
You want more agents. Biden proposed hiring 1,500 new Customs and Border Protection personnel. Republicans said, "no."
Sorry. I cannot believe that an "Immigration Judge" (or call them "Deportation Order Signers") would actually order anyone deported. It is just too contrary to the liberal agenda. 4300 more (proposed by Biden, as you say) would just speed up permanent residency. Their promise (words) to make things better with immigration reform is a lie, their probable "Action" on the bench would be to rubber stamp permanent residency. But the truth is, if I were to get my way (to deport them en masse by rounding them up, arresting them and then kicking them back across the border), we'd have to appoint fair and impartial judges. Fat chance of that. We only get massive deportations by appointing judges with a bias like mine, that is, deport everyone who ever came here illegally. Period. Every one of them. I am not in favor of appointing biased judges. I am doubtful we can find Constitutional judges either. How many immigrants is enough? 4 billion? The Left won't say, but I think I know the answer. Nope, Tom. Build the wall. Kick the illegals out. Stop the slow motion national suicide.
You don't need deportations if you don't let people in.
I am not enthusiastic about the state apparatus and police needed to dep[ort all the people that need to be deported, but I am even less enthusiastic about the resulting country should we fail to do so.
We need minefields, barbed wire, and walls not more judges. We also need a president who wants to secure the border not one who leaves it wide open and even sends planes to bring people in. Actually, we had a president who did secure the border. Whatever happened to him?
I am with you, Pete. I took 3 years of Latin in high school and am rusty, unlike Tom, who likes to bolster his arguments with pithy but germane Latin impedimenta. All I and other like-minded individuals need to remember is "________ delenda est!" It's time for hard core or we lose this fight. Sad but true. Who ever imagined we'd sink this far as a nation? Born in 1948, I never did.
Any judge appointed by this administration even if he or she is just an administrative law judge will be knee deep in DEI Marxist claptrap. Since 2021, ten million invaders have entered the United States on top of the tens of millions already here. All of the leftist policies could be easily reversed, but removing all these invaders would not be so easy which is precisely the point if you want transform America from a European country into the United Nations.
First declare war on Mexico, clear out a five mile wide zone between the US & Mexico (Adios Tijuana!). Then you turn that 5 mile zone into a Korean style DMZ.
The Koch brothers and other billionaires won't permit it. That area is filled with factories that make products at much lower costs than if they were made north of the border. You don't want to see lower corporate profits, do you? Do you know what a mansion overlooking Santa Monica costs these days?
"The Koch brothers and other billionaires won't permit it"
I hate to quote fiction, but with respect to those guys, the RNC, DNC, and the whole corrupt establishment, "The time for honouring yoursel[ves] will soon be over"
I disagree, Tom. We have more than enough Judges. Most of these people do not have legitimate asylum claims and we all know it. When I was a boy back in ~~seminary school~~ SWOS and on my first OOD In port board the concept of preventing people from gaining the quarterdeck was paramount.
Immigration is a political wedge issue. Biden's Immigration policy is very unpopular with many people.
LCS is just an embarrassment and a money hole.
You'd think the fact these purpose designed littoral warriors are sitting out the littoral conflict with the Houthis would raise eyebrows. Does not seem to be the case though.
If the balloons had gone up in the 1980's the Baltic campaign would've been a bloody close quarters knife fight between the small ships of a bunch of navies.
What are you talking about! The Independence class has a ~230-short tons cargo capacity with a vehicle elevator to connect the cargo deck to the flight deck! The JLTV-Rogue is being outfitted to be able to launch the SM-6 missile and the AML (Autonomous Multi-domain Launcher) based on the M142 HiMARS truck launcher with twice the capacity of the JLTV-Rogue! And the Mk.110 57mm is far better for anti-swarming than the Leonardo 76.2/62.5 is capable of doing! The Mk.46 30x173mm using the Nammo 30x173mm Swimmer APFSDS-T round is capable of engaging submerged submarines out to a range of ~4,000-meters…
I'm not even sure LCS would have utility in a secondary theater. Heck! Korvettenkapitän Timm and U-862 would have given one a run for its money in the Australian Bight circa 1944.
LCS 17 is 4 yrs old. Her second deployment. It was towed back from the first one, broken down half way through. Not a huge vote of confidence for a "new" ship.
No mention that in the Blue Crew's time "afloat" they had to be towed in a couple of times and broke down like 6x. Ship is still over there with the Gold crew.
By any stretch of the imagination, these ships cannot be relied upon. 17 was on water hours most of the time and pretty limited in what she could do "steaming."
Looking at their deployment pics on FB they seem to be mostly pier side, sweating in the heat, and sometimes trying to look cool with their guns and tactical gear. Very naval.
They were thinking how they were too cool for school, and that meant they don't need no stoopid Eurofrigates cause they know better. But the "not invented here" mindset always goes hand in hand with blind arrogance.
But on a more serious note, they were looking at the Dutch stanflex module system (ironically, given this story), at the Meko ships from Blohm & Voss and at the British ideas from the 80s for containerised AAW and sensors that could be fitted to auxiliaries, and trying to extrapolate ahead. They just went way too far. A frigate with a fantail for some containers, with a crane and some power sockets, would still have been a major improvement. What they wanted to aim for was the Hunter class/Type 26 frigate with its mission bay. But they were too soon for that. Tech wasn't mature.
I understand, but we stopped the Zumwalts at 3, instead of 32. We are alleged to have 24 in commission, but have paid for 38, AND ARE STILL BUILDING THE DAMN THINGS!!!
Tbf, there is a shortage of actual skilled labor; so having workers do these until we crank up Constellation production (or better yet, a Patrol Corvette) is not a bad idea, sad to say.
Maybe it's just bad math, but the round trip between Mayport to Bahrain alone seems like more than 15K NM. That makes ya' curious about how much time was in-port and how much of that time in-port was for contractor maintenance. Especially as they only had three in-ports while assigned to Fifth Fleet. Assuming 90 days in/outchop? Hmmm......
Great post. I've long had a softness for the Omaha-class CLs; as a Middie on a summer cruise port call in her namesake city I first learned the heroic story of Marblehead's epic voyage home from Java. Came to learn a few years back that Grandpa Scoobs (The Blackshoe) served aboard Cincinnati CL-6 several years out of The Boat School during the lean depression years - the Omahas might not have been frontline material but at least they brought enough speed, endurance, and firepower to the table to be useful elsewhere - and they were reliable!
they were frontline once, then they were second line, then they went to the breakers like all good ships. If the war was in 29, then they were top of the line, but it was 10 years later
Forgot to mention that they were also a good investment for the taxpayers - each with a 20+ yr service life. Any bets on if an LCS with make it 20...or 15?
He was working on buying Austal not long ago. Fitting since he brought them here and muscled them into their current position from what I've interpretted.
It's very strange and may raise interesting questions as to why design and build location are selected in the USA. The USN has very good AAW ships but, for some reason, has decided that ASW was not so important. After the LCS fiasco some sense was fleetingly observed, let's use an existing design, with minimal adaption. A variant of FREMM was selected, a fairly good ASW frigate. Sorry, Type 26 not allowed even though it was designed from the keel up as a high end ASW frigate, because it was a new build and not a proven design, fair enough, if those are the rules. US procurement rules seem to be a little bit flexible (cynicism suggests several reasons why) and suddenly the US version of the FREMM frigate only has a 15% commonality with the parent design. Isn't this a new, unproven design? The situation has been made infinitely worse than the selection of a yard where the now sonar can't be used. Are you actually building an ASW frigate?
Here's a suggestion. AUKUS pillar 3. The UK currently has four Type 26 and two Type 31 frigates in build. I'm sure that there will be some hard space to build the US some good ASW frigates as the leadership of your military, both political and military, seem incapable of building ships that your navy actually needs. The slightly rude saying about inability to organise a drinking session in a brewery does seem to apply. Unfortunately for you, and the world at large.
There's also claim on how the grass is greener on the other side as these frigates are built using FREMM design house which has built successfully variants for other nations. The Type 26 has been contracted to build for 2 additional countries and those variants haven't even hit the fleet yet. There's also the issue of how good British engineering these days that really warrant them a spot at the table of good alternatives, delayed after delayed, lackluster manning doesn't exactly spell confidence.
Most of the issue with the FREMM is their low survivability standards and non-common weapons suite. IF the US picked the Type 26, there's no guarantee that they won't go through the same problems.
Why have we forgotten the lessons of WW2? Mid Atlantic in the winter is not a great time for air cover, you need ships to prosecute the ASW or a lot more air coverage coming from continental USA and UK possible lots of P8s. In the Pacific carriers are not going to provide the air cover needed.
Connie and Type 26 will have the same gensets. What I am curious about is how much commonality the Australian and Canadian variants of type 26 will actually end up having.
My grandfather was the Warrant Bos'n in USS Cincinnati before the war. He retired as a LCDR, commanding three ATF's during the war. I proudly display the wardroom photo (one of the long flat photos) in my study. More importantly, he also created in me the love for the US Navy.
Sort of related, sort of not...but I saw a meme recently asserting that the only active-duty ship in the U.S. Navy to have sunk another ship in combat is the U.S.S. Constitution. Questioning this, but if you don't count air arm actions, is it a real possibility?
Capt. Chris Polk, the Navy's program manager for undersea weapons, detailed the effort to The War Zone and other attendees at the Navy League's Sea Air Space symposium near Washington, D.C. on Wednesday. The goal, Polk said, was to have a torpedo that costs $500,000 or less, with all components acquired and produced within a year. For comparison, the current unit cost of a Mk 48 Mod 7 torpedo is approximately $4.2 million, according to the Navy's 2025 Fiscal Year budget request.
Is each Ford Focus an artisanal hand-build, taking days of loving care from a small team of expert craftsmen? How much would a Ford Focus cost if the factory built 85 per year and you had to recover the cost of the factory after less then a thousand?
More likely, entering and departing ports 12 times....
Sea and Anchor Detail gets set both ways. It can also be set if the ship will be maneuvering near a coast.
Its mighty faint praise. Perhaps a little better than, "his zipper was up when he left the house 12 times!..."
But, it must be remembered the USN has had some real difficulties in conducting successful Sea and Anchor Details, so some PAO can be excused for seeing 12 Sea and Anchor Details that didn't make the news was a notable thing...
That link you posted, sid ( https://youtu.be/haqc5FnJfMY ) had me spun up until The Other Sal explained it. Good lesson for me not to get spun up without all the facts. Thanks for posting that.
Fitz & McCain were examples of OS's asleep at the switch. Navy friends my age were stunned to read the reports in the aftermaths. Geez. On my last ship in 1991, an Aegis CG, I was CICO. My OS's tracked every skunk within 20 miles on the DRT and maneuvering board. Not because I told them to. It was just an established habit. It had been that way on my previous 6 ships. When and how did that go away? Shortened attention spans, a work ethic deficit, too much trust in automation? I dunno.
The Vincennes. The after action report on that was chilling. The ones on Fitz and McCain were worse.
Back in 1983 our FFG was deployed. We were en route from Guam to Port Moresby, PNG, somewhere south of the Caroline's. The Captain's Night Orders told us to beware of a patch of shoal water that should be about 20 miles to port, which we'd pass on the midwatch. I had the midwatch as OOD. It was a boring watch, we had a moon, good viz, no shipping anywhere, nothing on radar. Cruising along at 16kts. I looked backwards to the chart table. The QM3 Hinojosa looked reasonably busy. He was a good kid. We were in an area with poor SatNav coverage. Mostly DR. We were fine. I looked up and noticed the fathometer read something like "11,891". (all numbers approximate) I then turned my attention back to looking ahead and eyeballing watchstanders, still bored. That patch of shoal water we were to pass would be happening in about an hour. A few minutes later I looked at the fatho again...."9723". OK. Maybe 5 minutes later the fatho said "3862". Then "2178"...."1789"...."800" ...."600" in quick succession. I ordered "ALL STOP!" and ran over to the Captain's chair and mashed the buzzer. The Captain picked up the SP phone and gave me a sleepy "Whaa-a-?" Before he could talk further, I said, "I'm confused about our position...come to the bridge, please." He was up on the bridge in a flash. Barefoot, just a pair of khaki trousers on. I explained that SatNav was sketchy (as predicted in the Night Orders) and that I'd noticed the fathometer was saying we might be heading to shallow water and that I'd come to all stop. He took the deck & conn, called the XO (the navigator) and the Senior Chief Sonarman to the bridge. The XO couldn't confirm our exact position other than what the DR indicated. The QM had been plotting the occasional SatNav hit which was iffy but pretty much polka-dotted us along the track. There was nothing to indicate we were very much off-track. The Senior Chief timed the fathometer pings and confirmed the indicated depth, but which did not comport with the charted depth. The Captain ordered us ahead at 5 kts, then 10. It was tense. Over the period of about 15 minutes the fathometer started reading "9-10,000" again. The Captain said, "Looks like we just sailed over an uncharted pinnacle. Mister Flowers, bridge wing." I was a CWO2, not yet a SWO and hoping to retire at least a CWO3. The Captain was a cold fish Navy Nuke doing an FFG CO tour before going back to a CHENG billet on a CVN. I knew I was screwed. We got out on the starboard bridge wing and he gave me a hug. He said, "I sleep well when you are on watch, Mister Flowers." I was uncomfortable being hugged by a bare-chested man on an ocean voyage. Was embarrassed because the look-out was wide-eyed and grinning. But my SWO board was a breeze once I finished all my PQS.
Link reminded me of something from a while ago. Young me is OOD on a CVN, 0-dark thirty, in San Diego op area on workups. Standing orders, no course changes without CO on bridge > 5 degrees, let him about anybody coming within 5 miles. I cannot reiterate more, Do NOT change course without CO on the bridge.
Heading for western op area, 16 kts or so, 270, USS BigAssReplenishment ship 12 nm 300 or so.
Eng Casualty drills, SCRAM, DIW, damn ...
Coasting, lights, etc, as appropriate.
Not supposed to change course ...
Damn, that thing is getting closer ...
JOOD, call USS BigAssReplenishment and say we're coming Right to pass astern.
Call CO. "Capt, this is LtJg Orwell, OOD. The time is 0130. We are in a 60 degree turn to starboard, expect to pass safely astern of USS BigAssReplenishment by 600 yards. Will resume course 270 after pass astern."
Captain "Uhh, OK!" He wasn't getting much sleep.
Next morning, new standing orders with respect to calling CO before ECC drills.
He wouldn't admit it but that guy loved me on the bridge while he was sleeping. I might piss him off, but he wasn't going to hit anything.
Being a Fleet OOD, driving an FFG...most fun I ever had. Back in 1968 as an RD2 after applying for NESEP twice, my XO got me aside and kindly told me that my 20/400 vision would forever prevent me from being an officer and driving ships. 14 years later I was grinning ear to ear, enjoying my ship-driving life as an OpTech Line CWO. Being an OOD on a CVN sounds terrifying, Orwell. Wish I could have done it.
It was great:) At the time I was told I was youngest CVN OOD/UW but likely they were being hyperbolic.
Also had good times driving a CG. I had midwatch OOD for almost an entire deployment because the CO was paranoid (to detriment of ship, sadly) and I was the only one he'd routinely let take the bridge while he was asleep. Guy would sometimes literally walk off the bridge at 2345 and come back at 0345. He didn't like me much either, gave me a shitty fitrep, but again trusted me with the ship.
"There were ten ships of the class, all commissioned between 1923 and 1925 in three different yards in Washington State, Massachusetts and Philadelphia."
Oh, its been so long since a metric like that has come to fruittion with our sea service....
Just thinking out loud. LCS's have Blue and Gold crews, right? But the LCS seem to be hard-pressed to deploy for long periods without the need for maintenance, watchstanding and relief from crew fatigue. Why not make them single crewed and up the day-to-day manning by combining a higher number from Blue/Gold team total numbers? The excess can man what ever passes for SIMA nowadays and do maintenance on LCS's in their homeports. They might get some extended life and use out of these ships, somewhere, somehow. That, or just decomm them all and send the crews elsewhere.
I'll bet the answer is, we don't have room for stores, toilet capacity, or bunks for the other crew.
They have also said something about getting training and qualification done on shore since they don't have time when aboard? Otherwise sounding bananas.
why not considering the Module crew areas ought to be empty. Am I correct in thinking that beyond the ability to take a helo on board, none of the original modules are deployed?
I think they have what amounts to the surface warfare module aboard. The 2 30mm Mk 46 that can't elevate high enough for UAVs, and the 11m RHIBs. It may or may not have a Hellfire module. From what I can see we haven't been purchasing them in the budget like they will ever happen. We also were only buying survivability upgrades for the LCS-2 class at 1 set per year and I don't think we have any requested in FY25.
My first ship, a DE, had 7 crappers, 8 urinals and about 6 showers for the crew. I have seen racks stack 4 high. There's always hot bunking. Lord, you have never seen a traffic jam like just after quarters, when the only head open was aft. 4 crappers, no partitions, knee-to-knee and hip-to-hip. I've been on a severely minimum manned ship, an NRF FFG. Any extra warm body who was trainable would have been welcome. For 2 years we never saw our promised TAR's (YN/PN's being force converted to ET, FTG and snipes) and the SELRES (good people all) only augmented one weekend a month (at sea) and two weeks every year (at sea). We were stretched so-o-o thin when our SELRES wasn't there.
Crew fatigue is a real thing. It can get ugly in regard to retention, morale, mental health and discipline. People will rise to the occasion, like they did in WWII, but when they know they are being used and neglected by bean counter wonks in D.C. it all goes into the crapper. Respect & loyalty is a two-way street.
Racks are not the only issue when it comes to crew. Everything we know about the LCS is bad; it wouldn't surprise me to find out they lacked the ability to make sufficient fresh water to drink; and the crew was sucking down cans of water out of the lifeboats to survive.
"8 urinals"
Is not the world our oyster?
Indeed. Every urinal frees up a crapper for more serious and urgent work.
I would ask that someone with current experience chime in here, but my memory is that one or both classes of LCS already has a shipping container “berthing in a box” onboard because - surprise, surprise - the equipment requires more maintainers than initially thought.
My understanding is they never upped the laundry capacity either.
It shouldn't be too hard to find some nice young women (who may or may not have links to the PLAN) to help with that ...
I'll see myself out
While, ASW, ASUW, and MCM modules were difficult to produce, I'd have to believe we could still come up with a kitchen and a few berthing "modules" if we tried.
Just listened to the Podcast from USNI News. They are going to single crews and the crew size is going to 112~. I hate to say they have any value... but they are here. SO if we and throw a few Drones and maybe even the SEA-DOME (it appears to be small enought and light enough to fit onboard) they might be useful in the waters around Yeman.
I was thinking the LCS platforms might be better transferred to the US Coast Guard for deployment to the Caribbean, where hostile air activity should be at a minimum.
Don't let the cartels hear you say that. I'm sure they are paying close attention to what is going on in Ukraine. The future of naval forces must assume hostile air in the form of drones may exist wherever they are deployed.
Don't let the cartels hear you say that. I'm sure they have paid careful attention to both drone use in Ukraine and what the Houthis are doing in the Red Sea. There are no future naval deployments where the lack of hostile air can be assumed. Either put adequate AAW on LCS or scrap them.
Sorry about the double post.
the three ... to the lower right are you friends
I refuse to vote for both of them ... :)
Why do you hate the Coast Guard? Lol
The Coast Guard does a lot with a little.
Coast Guard Cutters are designed for endurance, economical low speed patrol and sea keeping.
The LCS is ill suited to the needs and operating budget of the Coast Guard.
Sell them off and move on. We are wasting time and money better spent on something usefull.
If the US Navy cannot support them, why would the USCG be able to?
Transfer to the Caribbean, to become reefs
like I said previously, let the PI use one to replace the LST they have beached in the SCS. The one the CCP CG tries to starve out
I have no problem helping them out - but if the US Navy cannot support the LCS's how will the PI?
The reef will support the LCS like it supports the LST.
https://photorator.com/photos/images/that-abandoned-look-brp-sierra-madre-stands-watch-x-while-aground-on-ayungin-shoal-to-maintain-the---90091.jpg
But USCG doesn’t want them. Too expensive to run.
Here's why the partisan gridlock becomes so frustrating. How do I make the case to my Representative? All he seem to care about is yelling about immigration.
Who in the House cares?
If your rep is yelling the right things about immigration doesn't that make him one of the good guys?
No. Too much yelling, not enough action. Acta non verba.
You want to get me fired up? Immigration has Judges. They are not real Judges, they are more like French Magistrates. They have to process the paperwork before a migrant gets in, or gets kicked out. We don't have enough Judges. We have not had enough Judges for years. Everybody knows we don't have enough Judges to process the cases. We can't deport folks because we don't have a Judge to sign the deportation order.
It's the freaking spurting arterial blood of the immigration system. Everyone know the answer is put pressure on the wound, and hire a boatload of more Judges, yet we do nothing! So no, I'm not impressed by a Congressman who says things and does nothing.
But, my larger point is, where is the Congressional leadership in the pressing issue of shipbuilding?
More judges, appointed by bleeding heart liberals, will just mean more permanent irrevocable green cards issued. What we need is enforcement of current laws, that is: arrests and deportations.
Dale, they are far from "bleeding heart liberals," they are hard-nosed immigration officers. They are not Judges as most folks think of Judges, they are closer to a old-school police desk sergeant. The reason they are important is that they are the folks who order deportation. Hiring more immigration judges would result in more deportations; immediately.
You want deportations? Great! You still need someone to order the deportation. That person is an immigration judge. We could increase the number of deportations, and the speed with which they are deported by simply hiring enough immigration judges to deal with the number of people whose claims need to be decided. If you think of them as "deportation order signers" would you object to having enough of them to sign orders in all the pending cases? Biden proposed hiring 100 "deportation order signers" and their associated staff. Republicans said, "no."
The fact of the matter is that the Republican party does not want to solve any of our immigration problems they just want to shout about them. Right now we have 1000 people processing asylum claims. It takes years for the claims to be decided. Biden proposed hiring 4,300 more, quadrupling the number of adjudicators. This would move cases quicker and get folks who don't belong here out faster. Republicans said, "no."
You want more agents. Biden proposed hiring 1,500 new Customs and Border Protection personnel. Republicans said, "no."
Actions, not words.
Sorry. I cannot believe that an "Immigration Judge" (or call them "Deportation Order Signers") would actually order anyone deported. It is just too contrary to the liberal agenda. 4300 more (proposed by Biden, as you say) would just speed up permanent residency. Their promise (words) to make things better with immigration reform is a lie, their probable "Action" on the bench would be to rubber stamp permanent residency. But the truth is, if I were to get my way (to deport them en masse by rounding them up, arresting them and then kicking them back across the border), we'd have to appoint fair and impartial judges. Fat chance of that. We only get massive deportations by appointing judges with a bias like mine, that is, deport everyone who ever came here illegally. Period. Every one of them. I am not in favor of appointing biased judges. I am doubtful we can find Constitutional judges either. How many immigrants is enough? 4 billion? The Left won't say, but I think I know the answer. Nope, Tom. Build the wall. Kick the illegals out. Stop the slow motion national suicide.
Your opinions are not facts. Immigration Judges are not Judges like the ones in court. Educate yourself.
You don't need deportations if you don't let people in.
I am not enthusiastic about the state apparatus and police needed to dep[ort all the people that need to be deported, but I am even less enthusiastic about the resulting country should we fail to do so.
We need minefields, barbed wire, and walls not more judges. We also need a president who wants to secure the border not one who leaves it wide open and even sends planes to bring people in. Actually, we had a president who did secure the border. Whatever happened to him?
I am with you, Pete. I took 3 years of Latin in high school and am rusty, unlike Tom, who likes to bolster his arguments with pithy but germane Latin impedimenta. All I and other like-minded individuals need to remember is "________ delenda est!" It's time for hard core or we lose this fight. Sad but true. Who ever imagined we'd sink this far as a nation? Born in 1948, I never did.
Any judge appointed by this administration even if he or she is just an administrative law judge will be knee deep in DEI Marxist claptrap. Since 2021, ten million invaders have entered the United States on top of the tens of millions already here. All of the leftist policies could be easily reversed, but removing all these invaders would not be so easy which is precisely the point if you want transform America from a European country into the United Nations.
My Latin is rusty, too. But I remember reading about Rome in the 4th and 5th centuries filling its legions with barbarians. That worked out real well.
Actions, not words. Anyone can spew bullshit, do something!
Born in 1967 I never did either, yet here we are in Weimerica
First declare war on Mexico, clear out a five mile wide zone between the US & Mexico (Adios Tijuana!). Then you turn that 5 mile zone into a Korean style DMZ.
The Koch brothers and other billionaires won't permit it. That area is filled with factories that make products at much lower costs than if they were made north of the border. You don't want to see lower corporate profits, do you? Do you know what a mansion overlooking Santa Monica costs these days?
Maybe the "Koch brothers and other billionaires" shouldn't be a thing anymore.
"The Koch brothers and other billionaires won't permit it"
I hate to quote fiction, but with respect to those guys, the RNC, DNC, and the whole corrupt establishment, "The time for honouring yoursel[ves] will soon be over"
Can we get some RoK soldiers to help us fortify it?
^This. And let's put the Army on our borders first, too.
"We don't have enough Judges. "
I disagree, Tom. We have more than enough Judges. Most of these people do not have legitimate asylum claims and we all know it. When I was a boy back in ~~seminary school~~ SWOS and on my first OOD In port board the concept of preventing people from gaining the quarterdeck was paramount.
We need soldiers on our borders, not judges.
Immigration is a political wedge issue. Biden's Immigration policy is very unpopular with many people.
LCS is just an embarrassment and a money hole.
You'd think the fact these purpose designed littoral warriors are sitting out the littoral conflict with the Houthis would raise eyebrows. Does not seem to be the case though.
You have a congressman who opposes America being invaded? Reelect him.
“Where are the LCS?”
They have no air defense and weak anti-boat defenses.
Where to put them?
Anti-drug patrols and showing the flag in Micronesia or the Baltic
Micronesia is too far north. Send the LCS's to Melanesia and let the Cargo Cultist worship them.
Not the Baltic. If things go wrong and the balloon goes up with Russia they'll be sitting ducks.
And you think the PLA is less competent? with fewer ships or fewer ASCM?
At least in the Baltic there would be air cover
Ships in the Solomons will at least have some level of warning. Ships in the Baltic will not.
If the balloons had gone up in the 1980's the Baltic campaign would've been a bloody close quarters knife fight between the small ships of a bunch of navies.
What are you talking about! The Independence class has a ~230-short tons cargo capacity with a vehicle elevator to connect the cargo deck to the flight deck! The JLTV-Rogue is being outfitted to be able to launch the SM-6 missile and the AML (Autonomous Multi-domain Launcher) based on the M142 HiMARS truck launcher with twice the capacity of the JLTV-Rogue! And the Mk.110 57mm is far better for anti-swarming than the Leonardo 76.2/62.5 is capable of doing! The Mk.46 30x173mm using the Nammo 30x173mm Swimmer APFSDS-T round is capable of engaging submerged submarines out to a range of ~4,000-meters…
OMG, now I am thinking you are being serious.
I'm not even sure LCS would have utility in a secondary theater. Heck! Korvettenkapitän Timm and U-862 would have given one a run for its money in the Australian Bight circa 1944.
LCS 17 is 4 yrs old. Her second deployment. It was towed back from the first one, broken down half way through. Not a huge vote of confidence for a "new" ship.
No mention that in the Blue Crew's time "afloat" they had to be towed in a couple of times and broke down like 6x. Ship is still over there with the Gold crew.
By any stretch of the imagination, these ships cannot be relied upon. 17 was on water hours most of the time and pretty limited in what she could do "steaming."
Looking at their deployment pics on FB they seem to be mostly pier side, sweating in the heat, and sometimes trying to look cool with their guns and tactical gear. Very naval.
"Of the 111 surface combatants. Of those, 24 are LCS. "
I'm not a sailor, but those two sentences should damn two generations of FO's to eternal Hell.
What were you all thinking?
https://i.imgflip.com/13sexi.jpg
They were thinking how they were too cool for school, and that meant they don't need no stoopid Eurofrigates cause they know better. But the "not invented here" mindset always goes hand in hand with blind arrogance.
But on a more serious note, they were looking at the Dutch stanflex module system (ironically, given this story), at the Meko ships from Blohm & Voss and at the British ideas from the 80s for containerised AAW and sensors that could be fitted to auxiliaries, and trying to extrapolate ahead. They just went way too far. A frigate with a fantail for some containers, with a crane and some power sockets, would still have been a major improvement. What they wanted to aim for was the Hunter class/Type 26 frigate with its mission bay. But they were too soon for that. Tech wasn't mature.
I understand, but we stopped the Zumwalts at 3, instead of 32. We are alleged to have 24 in commission, but have paid for 38, AND ARE STILL BUILDING THE DAMN THINGS!!!
Different problem, now. Now it's all about pork barrel politics.
so accept money for little crappy ships, instead of fighting for different useable ships, but get less money.
Fill up shipyards with these hulls instead a useful FFG
Send thousands of sailors in harms way on these turkeys
24 out of 111. tears and tears
Tbf, there is a shortage of actual skilled labor; so having workers do these until we crank up Constellation production (or better yet, a Patrol Corvette) is not a bad idea, sad to say.
I see your point. Just a sordid mess all around.
My entire adult life has been watching the United States debase herself.
Damn those FO's to eternal LCS sweep, swab, wax & buff duties. Messcrank in their spare time.
Maybe it's just bad math, but the round trip between Mayport to Bahrain alone seems like more than 15K NM. That makes ya' curious about how much time was in-port and how much of that time in-port was for contractor maintenance. Especially as they only had three in-ports while assigned to Fifth Fleet. Assuming 90 days in/outchop? Hmmm......
Math is racist
Great post. I've long had a softness for the Omaha-class CLs; as a Middie on a summer cruise port call in her namesake city I first learned the heroic story of Marblehead's epic voyage home from Java. Came to learn a few years back that Grandpa Scoobs (The Blackshoe) served aboard Cincinnati CL-6 several years out of The Boat School during the lean depression years - the Omahas might not have been frontline material but at least they brought enough speed, endurance, and firepower to the table to be useful elsewhere - and they were reliable!
they were frontline once, then they were second line, then they went to the breakers like all good ships. If the war was in 29, then they were top of the line, but it was 10 years later
LCS skipped step 1
Forgot to mention that they were also a good investment for the taxpayers - each with a 20+ yr service life. Any bets on if an LCS with make it 20...or 15?
I f you don't even steal the underpants, how the heck can you ever profit?
The geniuses in the five sided puzzle palace have been ruling over the ashes of the US Navy. Bring back John Lehman.
We need a Henry Kaiser who can build shipyards and ships.
And the Rainbow Tower at the Hilton Waikiki.
Stunning view. But I prefer the north shore of Oahu.
He was working on buying Austal not long ago. Fitting since he brought them here and muscled them into their current position from what I've interpretted.
It's very strange and may raise interesting questions as to why design and build location are selected in the USA. The USN has very good AAW ships but, for some reason, has decided that ASW was not so important. After the LCS fiasco some sense was fleetingly observed, let's use an existing design, with minimal adaption. A variant of FREMM was selected, a fairly good ASW frigate. Sorry, Type 26 not allowed even though it was designed from the keel up as a high end ASW frigate, because it was a new build and not a proven design, fair enough, if those are the rules. US procurement rules seem to be a little bit flexible (cynicism suggests several reasons why) and suddenly the US version of the FREMM frigate only has a 15% commonality with the parent design. Isn't this a new, unproven design? The situation has been made infinitely worse than the selection of a yard where the now sonar can't be used. Are you actually building an ASW frigate?
Here's a suggestion. AUKUS pillar 3. The UK currently has four Type 26 and two Type 31 frigates in build. I'm sure that there will be some hard space to build the US some good ASW frigates as the leadership of your military, both political and military, seem incapable of building ships that your navy actually needs. The slightly rude saying about inability to organise a drinking session in a brewery does seem to apply. Unfortunately for you, and the world at large.
Sorry, auto correct typos.
Ist para, should be 'infinitely worse by the selection '
2nd para, should be 'there will be some yard space'
Look at the three dots to the right. You should be able to click on them and edit your post.
There's also claim on how the grass is greener on the other side as these frigates are built using FREMM design house which has built successfully variants for other nations. The Type 26 has been contracted to build for 2 additional countries and those variants haven't even hit the fleet yet. There's also the issue of how good British engineering these days that really warrant them a spot at the table of good alternatives, delayed after delayed, lackluster manning doesn't exactly spell confidence.
Most of the issue with the FREMM is their low survivability standards and non-common weapons suite. IF the US picked the Type 26, there's no guarantee that they won't go through the same problems.
The USN has very good AAW ships but, for some reason, has decided that ASW was not so important.
because the Navy expects to always have air superiority under its carrier dome.
Why have we forgotten the lessons of WW2? Mid Atlantic in the winter is not a great time for air cover, you need ships to prosecute the ASW or a lot more air coverage coming from continental USA and UK possible lots of P8s. In the Pacific carriers are not going to provide the air cover needed.
We have forgotten a LOT of things that the WW2 generation bled to learn.
does this expectation not diminish as number and mission readiness of said carriers may decrease?
Connie and Type 26 will have the same gensets. What I am curious about is how much commonality the Australian and Canadian variants of type 26 will actually end up having.
My grandfather was the Warrant Bos'n in USS Cincinnati before the war. He retired as a LCDR, commanding three ATF's during the war. I proudly display the wardroom photo (one of the long flat photos) in my study. More importantly, he also created in me the love for the US Navy.
Sort of related, sort of not...but I saw a meme recently asserting that the only active-duty ship in the U.S. Navy to have sunk another ship in combat is the U.S.S. Constitution. Questioning this, but if you don't count air arm actions, is it a real possibility?
This shows there is some sense in the Navy:
Capt. Chris Polk, the Navy's program manager for undersea weapons, detailed the effort to The War Zone and other attendees at the Navy League's Sea Air Space symposium near Washington, D.C. on Wednesday. The goal, Polk said, was to have a torpedo that costs $500,000 or less, with all components acquired and produced within a year. For comparison, the current unit cost of a Mk 48 Mod 7 torpedo is approximately $4.2 million, according to the Navy's 2025 Fiscal Year budget request.
https://www.twz.com/sea/navy-wants-a-cheap-heavy-torpedo-that-can-be-stockpiled-fast
I'm sorry, but having started to pay attention 40 years ago ... Mk 48 ... $4.2 million?
We have exactly zero expectation that we will ever use these weapons in a sustained combat scenario.
There is absolutely no reason for a Mk 48 made in quantity to cost more than a ford focus.
Is each Ford Focus an artisanal hand-build, taking days of loving care from a small team of expert craftsmen? How much would a Ford Focus cost if the factory built 85 per year and you had to recover the cost of the factory after less then a thousand?
I understand, but damn. It's a torpedo. we should have made 50,000. There's not that much to it, and software is write one (right), write a billion.
12 sea and anchor details.
Does that mean they anchored six times (arriving and departing each get a detail)?
Is that significant in any way, besides looking for something to boast of?
More likely, entering and departing ports 12 times....
Sea and Anchor Detail gets set both ways. It can also be set if the ship will be maneuvering near a coast.
Its mighty faint praise. Perhaps a little better than, "his zipper was up when he left the house 12 times!..."
But, it must be remembered the USN has had some real difficulties in conducting successful Sea and Anchor Details, so some PAO can be excused for seeing 12 Sea and Anchor Details that didn't make the news was a notable thing...
https://gcaptain.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/20090208_a15-cty-grounded.jpg
https://gcaptain.com/uss-port-royal-grounding-incident-photo-of-the-week/
And, more recently, this near miss...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haqc5FnJfMY
Since you're a pilot, its like saying you have taken off and landed 12 times....
(Well. Yeah. And?)
That link you posted, sid ( https://youtu.be/haqc5FnJfMY ) had me spun up until The Other Sal explained it. Good lesson for me not to get spun up without all the facts. Thanks for posting that.
From that incident, looking back to the Port Royal, through the Fitz and McCain, all had a glaring absence....
Any active participation whatsoever from CIC.
What exactly do OS's do these days?
(except work out with kettlebells, and pee in water bottles...)
Fitz & McCain were examples of OS's asleep at the switch. Navy friends my age were stunned to read the reports in the aftermaths. Geez. On my last ship in 1991, an Aegis CG, I was CICO. My OS's tracked every skunk within 20 miles on the DRT and maneuvering board. Not because I told them to. It was just an established habit. It had been that way on my previous 6 ships. When and how did that go away? Shortened attention spans, a work ethic deficit, too much trust in automation? I dunno.
" When and how did that go away? Shortened attention spans, a work ethic deficit, too much trust in automation? I dunno."
The USN still suffers from the, "Vincennes Effect"...
https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1993/august/vincennes-case-study
All those pretty screens tell you all you need to know. You don't have to even think about it...
https://i0.wp.com/www.defensemedianetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/USS-Vincennes-CG49.jpg?resize=720%2C583&ssl=1
I call them the modern Sirens...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_and_the_Sirens_%28Draper%29#/media/File:Ulysses_and_the_Sirens_by_H.J._Draper.jpg
The more "Magic" beaming at you from out of the box...
The more you have to keep your head in the game.
Some years back, I got roasted on a sailing blog when I opined all the new electronics coming aboard yachts were going to be a problem.
Whelp...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmw7_DzM2JI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyVFWwRsV2s
Told Yah So!
https://www.yachtingworld.com/news/vestas-grounding-report-more-than-just-an-expensive-and-embarrassing-mistake-62635
The Vincennes. The after action report on that was chilling. The ones on Fitz and McCain were worse.
Back in 1983 our FFG was deployed. We were en route from Guam to Port Moresby, PNG, somewhere south of the Caroline's. The Captain's Night Orders told us to beware of a patch of shoal water that should be about 20 miles to port, which we'd pass on the midwatch. I had the midwatch as OOD. It was a boring watch, we had a moon, good viz, no shipping anywhere, nothing on radar. Cruising along at 16kts. I looked backwards to the chart table. The QM3 Hinojosa looked reasonably busy. He was a good kid. We were in an area with poor SatNav coverage. Mostly DR. We were fine. I looked up and noticed the fathometer read something like "11,891". (all numbers approximate) I then turned my attention back to looking ahead and eyeballing watchstanders, still bored. That patch of shoal water we were to pass would be happening in about an hour. A few minutes later I looked at the fatho again...."9723". OK. Maybe 5 minutes later the fatho said "3862". Then "2178"...."1789"...."800" ...."600" in quick succession. I ordered "ALL STOP!" and ran over to the Captain's chair and mashed the buzzer. The Captain picked up the SP phone and gave me a sleepy "Whaa-a-?" Before he could talk further, I said, "I'm confused about our position...come to the bridge, please." He was up on the bridge in a flash. Barefoot, just a pair of khaki trousers on. I explained that SatNav was sketchy (as predicted in the Night Orders) and that I'd noticed the fathometer was saying we might be heading to shallow water and that I'd come to all stop. He took the deck & conn, called the XO (the navigator) and the Senior Chief Sonarman to the bridge. The XO couldn't confirm our exact position other than what the DR indicated. The QM had been plotting the occasional SatNav hit which was iffy but pretty much polka-dotted us along the track. There was nothing to indicate we were very much off-track. The Senior Chief timed the fathometer pings and confirmed the indicated depth, but which did not comport with the charted depth. The Captain ordered us ahead at 5 kts, then 10. It was tense. Over the period of about 15 minutes the fathometer started reading "9-10,000" again. The Captain said, "Looks like we just sailed over an uncharted pinnacle. Mister Flowers, bridge wing." I was a CWO2, not yet a SWO and hoping to retire at least a CWO3. The Captain was a cold fish Navy Nuke doing an FFG CO tour before going back to a CHENG billet on a CVN. I knew I was screwed. We got out on the starboard bridge wing and he gave me a hug. He said, "I sleep well when you are on watch, Mister Flowers." I was uncomfortable being hugged by a bare-chested man on an ocean voyage. Was embarrassed because the look-out was wide-eyed and grinning. But my SWO board was a breeze once I finished all my PQS.
Spent a lot of time studying GC-49 "incident" when I was at CSO school and later when I was on the ship.
Yes, exactly. I’m a merchie captain. Trying to get the young’ uns off the computer and or to the radar and the WINDOWS is a struggle.
“If the computer says so, it must be true…”
Didn't they ever see "The Terminator?"
in 91 I was OOD on a CVN, in 94 I was CICO then TAO on a CGN.
As I heard TAO girl wasn't talking to OOD girl because reasons
Yep...
TAO was busy doing fitreps or something.
She is the daughter of a now retired Admiral btw..
And not that it should matter one nit...but she is black.
Anyway, the OOD had some kind of simmering catfight going on with her.
But more importantly, where world in the world was the CICWO, the CIC Watch Supe, the rest of the CIC team????
And I still can't wrap my head around the kettlebells and bottles of pee.
What the actual fu××k?
Concur all. Having worked for a long time in a space very similar to that, just, W. T. F. I can't really wrap my head around it
Link reminded me of something from a while ago. Young me is OOD on a CVN, 0-dark thirty, in San Diego op area on workups. Standing orders, no course changes without CO on bridge > 5 degrees, let him about anybody coming within 5 miles. I cannot reiterate more, Do NOT change course without CO on the bridge.
Heading for western op area, 16 kts or so, 270, USS BigAssReplenishment ship 12 nm 300 or so.
Eng Casualty drills, SCRAM, DIW, damn ...
Coasting, lights, etc, as appropriate.
Not supposed to change course ...
Damn, that thing is getting closer ...
JOOD, call USS BigAssReplenishment and say we're coming Right to pass astern.
Call CO. "Capt, this is LtJg Orwell, OOD. The time is 0130. We are in a 60 degree turn to starboard, expect to pass safely astern of USS BigAssReplenishment by 600 yards. Will resume course 270 after pass astern."
Captain "Uhh, OK!" He wasn't getting much sleep.
Next morning, new standing orders with respect to calling CO before ECC drills.
He wouldn't admit it but that guy loved me on the bridge while he was sleeping. I might piss him off, but he wasn't going to hit anything.
Being a Fleet OOD, driving an FFG...most fun I ever had. Back in 1968 as an RD2 after applying for NESEP twice, my XO got me aside and kindly told me that my 20/400 vision would forever prevent me from being an officer and driving ships. 14 years later I was grinning ear to ear, enjoying my ship-driving life as an OpTech Line CWO. Being an OOD on a CVN sounds terrifying, Orwell. Wish I could have done it.
It was great:) At the time I was told I was youngest CVN OOD/UW but likely they were being hyperbolic.
Also had good times driving a CG. I had midwatch OOD for almost an entire deployment because the CO was paranoid (to detriment of ship, sadly) and I was the only one he'd routinely let take the bridge while he was asleep. Guy would sometimes literally walk off the bridge at 2345 and come back at 0345. He didn't like me much either, gave me a shitty fitrep, but again trusted me with the ship.
Steady diet of midwatches must have been a killer.
Perhaps a little better than, "his zipper was up when he left the house 12 times!..."
How many of us can claim 12/12 there? Be honest.
It takes just -one- time to accidentally catch a certain piece of anatomy...
Hard to not forget after that!
lol
Best scene in "There's Something About Mary"
Historical analogue to the Indianapolis's deployment (minus the Diplomatic component that the USN doesnt really participate in now)
https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/2019/december/misfit-ships-chinas-great-river
Things went well...Until they didn't....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsFSoYKtro0
"There were ten ships of the class, all commissioned between 1923 and 1925 in three different yards in Washington State, Massachusetts and Philadelphia."
Oh, its been so long since a metric like that has come to fruittion with our sea service....