I flew the RF8G in Vietnam. My enemy was not the SAMS or MIGS it was bullets: 23mm, 37mm, 85mm bullets. Low tech and nasty. I got to watch the USS NEW JERSEY shoot for training. Those 16" rifles were impressive. Battleships make a statement about our National will that everyone can see and understand: no stealth, its "in your face" power.
Battleships were in service during my time, the Vietnam era and the First Gulf War. There was no shortage of people begging their detailer for a transfer to one or some first-termer wanting to reenlist for one. A couple of Battleships in today's Navy might help in recruiting, and certainly would for retention. Couldn't find the video of our Battleships shelling Kuwait in 1991 as part of an Amphib invasion feint. Massive terrain rearrangement, very impressive. ...the RF8, single seat, single engine, unarmed, probably unescorted. My dad was a USAF pilot in propeller ELINT/COMINT RECCE aircraft during the Korean War. Thankless job, no Hollywood glamour. But balls of steel. Hats off to you, Will.
Great Full Bore Ghost. Simultaneously uplifting and depressing. Uplifting that we had BBs closing to 4000 yds - look at those barrels elevated to 0 deg - to provide close in support for troop landings, and depressing to know that we can no longer provide that kind of "days on station" support for any action ashore. What we gonna do? Gonna send in a Burke with 5 inch or Connie with a much-feared 57mm? After about 2 hrs they'd be Winchester.
Remember the Desert Storm episode where the Iraqis were "surrendering" to the spotting drones after suffering under a 16 inch barrage? No one surrenders to a passing $2 million T-hawk.
"Several of the Allied tanks were shooting at a particular spot on the bluffs, and carefully noting the location, Beer directed his ship’s guns to target those same positions. The Carmick fired a series of rapid-fire salvoes from her 5-inch guns into the suspicious area. After a few minutes, Beer saw that the tank gunners had shifted their fire to another site, and Beer directed his gunnery officer to follow suit. “It became evident,” Beer reported afterward, “that the Army was using tank fire in [the] hope that fire support vessels would see the target and take it under fire.”
Known a few Atomic Veterans. Most had a certificate to proudly hang on their wall, but were a little miffed about guinea pig aspect of it decades later.
I've been researching VCS-7 for years. After D-Day those guys went back to their SOC Seagulls for Operation Dragoon, and some were sadly shot down and killed.
VCS-7 was formed, mostly, because of the horrible losses of Observation planes during the invasion of Sicily (Operation Husky).
There are also rumors of VCS-6, Navy pilots in Mustangs in Italy, but I haven't found any documents to support that yet.
The transition from an SOC to a Mk IX Spitfire must have been interesting. And they just got in the airplane and did it. The stall speed alone was probably 50% higher.
They actually trained on Spitfire Vb's for a month beforehand at Middle Wallop, mostly by US Army pilots from the 67th Recon Group. They learned the British method of artillery spotting as it was more intuitive and efficient than ours. Alll the naval forces assigned to shore bombardment for Overlord use the British clock system.
VCS-7 transferred to RNAS Lee-on-Solent on May 28th, where there was a spotting pool of Spitfires and Seafires.
Vb's in mid-'44? Sure they had air superiority over the beaches along with air cover. But a Mk Vb in mid-44? I'd have doubted there were any Vb left in the ETO. (The RAF flew the Mohawk in the CBI until 12/43.)
Just read the article posted by Sid. Take a look at the exhaust stacks. Those were certainly not the typical Vb stacks. Perhaps the had been freshened up a bit and not war weary. (Turns out there were still six RAF squadrons still flying the Vb in Europe. Who knew?)
Ya' know? Fullbore is a wonderful thing. Yet, there's a certain fullbore (lower case) to the average command, with average sailors, doing average jobs, day in and day out with average results without complaint or problems.
BZ to the crew of BB-33 who weathered convoy duty in the North Atlantic, threats of aerial attack, submarines, surface raiders....and then went toe to toe with shore batteries. They just showed up and did the job when called.
The average sailor, the Snipe, Cook, Lookout, QM, SH, RD, HM...doing his average job, 8+ hour days inport in 4 section duty in homeport( or 3 section duty inport while deployed). 12-16 hour days at sea in 2 and 3 section duty. Sea/shore rotation from 5/2 to 3/3. Had a new Master Chief assigned to me. Young guy, had 14 years in, showed up in CNT's with an ESWS pin, a Good Conduct ribbon with 2 stars, a National Defense Service ribbon and a Sea Service Deployment ribbon. That's all. First thing he said to me was, "Before you ask, Sir, all I did was show up with a good attitude and did a great job. I'll do the same for you, Sir." He did. Most sailors I knew did likewise. They worked like wage slaves for a paltry salary. '65 to '91 were good years.
Fullbore. Grandpa Scoobs (the Blackshoe) was just a few miles away aboard his destroyer USS MEREDITH (DD-726) on the gunline off Utah Beach. In less than 48 hours his crew escorted an LST convoy across the English Channel, engaged in air defense, screened from E-boat attacks, and provided multiple NGFS fire missions operating in what I guess we'd call today a "multi-threat environment". MEREDITH' s luck ran out at 0152L on June 8th when while screening USS NEVADA she took a mortal blow at the waterline - her after action report claimed it was due to a mine strike but other ships in the area (including NEVADA) recorded it differently, claiming she was struck by an aerial launched Hs-293 radio-controlled glide bomb. Regardless of the cause, MEREDITH's keel was broken with only her main deck holding her together and she later foundered on the afternoon of June 9th, less than three months since she had been commissioned at Bath Iron Works.
Destroyers named Meredith did not fare well during WW2, with 726 and her predecessor DD-434 both being lost in action. A new construction Gearing class (DD-809) carried on the name but was commissioned postwar - Casa De Scoobs has a number of items related to 726’s brief service, including her commissioning pennant.
When they brought the BB's back for Vietnam they brought back some old WWII and Korean War sailors to man them. I heard they brought back oldsters for the New Jersey and Wisconsin later. I doubt those old salts had patience for any whining or mewling. If we brought BB's back now, I'm pretty sure any Gulf War call ups would kibosh caterwauling about LGBTQ issues PDQ and be damned to mincing DIE-H(a)R'ds
I'd be demanding to go back active, even if it means years of further service past 20. Be LCPO of 75 sailors in a 16" turret? Where do I sign!
And yet, I've said the biggest reason we can't have battleships is we don't have the skilled sailors to operate the physical plants. The end of oil fired steam propulsion is now just a matter of time. There's only two LCC's and six LHD's that still have boilers.
Cool, Sal! My father was the Asst Division Medical Officer for the 29th Div at Omaha (passed away in 1994) Was reading his rememberances a few days ago as we are preparing to go visit Omaha and he commented on the blast of the battleships when they shot over their heads as they were heading for the beach.... An incredible generation of me (and women-- mom was an Army nurse in WWII, treating the wounded from D-Day in England).
Has to be remembered that prewar naval Aviators would routinely be assigned to billets aboard cruisers and battleships, or flying boats, and then assigned in carrier aircraft.
So I would think this wasn't necessarily seen all that extraordinary at the time.
Though McNamara's Project 100,000 didn't officially begin until 1966, we had Cat 4's in our bootcamp Company in November 1965. One I recall had scored a 20 on his GCT/ARI (pre-ASVAB). Anyone could triple that score just by picking an A, B, C or D and using that single letter to answer all the questions. That guy could not tie his shoes without help. He got sent to Aviation Storekeeper school, another to become an Electrician's Mate. Was a 17 year old dropout myself. Was interviewed by a Master Chief CTI because of my FLAT & GCT/ARI scores and all was going well until he said, "You have a high school diploma, right?" My "No, Sir" ended the interview. Just as well, as I might have ended up unemployed after 1973 when the need for Hmong linguists dried up. High school dropouts, as a group, don't do so well in the military. That might be for many reasons. Dumb, lack of gumption or work ethic, learning disability, substance abuser, behavioral problems...who knows? But I reckon I was lucky on that classification day. My rejection by the Cryppie Master Chief was noted by some kindly PN-2612 who snagged me to ask what I wanted to be. I told him Fire Control Technician. He asked why. Told him I wanted to drive a red truck and fight fires. He made me a Radarman. An incredibly lucky break. /// But as a separate issue, what is a 2024 high school diploma worth? As long as the AFQT/ASVAB can remain a true and accurate measurement of useful potential that should remain the best screening device. I think it would be wise if the military had a Gold Standard for recruitment, but when they get desperate they could grant blanket or individual waivers with a quick disconnect clause in the contract to ka-Whoosh the folks not working out. A simple "Begone" and no admin or VA burden. Like panning for gold.
Nice! ARKANSAS delivering fire support for the delivery of the Big Red One by the USCG LCVPs at Omaha Beach. Great story.
Coast Guard coxswains in WWII ... fullbore.
https://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2017/07/fullbore-friday_14.html
I flew the RF8G in Vietnam. My enemy was not the SAMS or MIGS it was bullets: 23mm, 37mm, 85mm bullets. Low tech and nasty. I got to watch the USS NEW JERSEY shoot for training. Those 16" rifles were impressive. Battleships make a statement about our National will that everyone can see and understand: no stealth, its "in your face" power.
Will Gray: National will is in short supply, these days. The best we can do is to shoot down some flying lawnmowers over the Red Sea.
Battleships were in service during my time, the Vietnam era and the First Gulf War. There was no shortage of people begging their detailer for a transfer to one or some first-termer wanting to reenlist for one. A couple of Battleships in today's Navy might help in recruiting, and certainly would for retention. Couldn't find the video of our Battleships shelling Kuwait in 1991 as part of an Amphib invasion feint. Massive terrain rearrangement, very impressive. ...the RF8, single seat, single engine, unarmed, probably unescorted. My dad was a USAF pilot in propeller ELINT/COMINT RECCE aircraft during the Korean War. Thankless job, no Hollywood glamour. But balls of steel. Hats off to you, Will.
When I was flying F4's (C's, D's, E's and mostly G's) I wasn't worried too much about missiles....
ZSU-23 Quad 4s scared the crap out of me.
Seeing the Ukrainian Gephards in action must make your eye twitch.
yep
I first heard of the VCS guys flying Spitfires over Normandy from Sea Classics magazine.
And the old Battleships did a yeoman service to support invasion forces.
Good ship good crew.
We still make men like that but getting them to join is the problem.
Great Full Bore Ghost. Simultaneously uplifting and depressing. Uplifting that we had BBs closing to 4000 yds - look at those barrels elevated to 0 deg - to provide close in support for troop landings, and depressing to know that we can no longer provide that kind of "days on station" support for any action ashore. What we gonna do? Gonna send in a Burke with 5 inch or Connie with a much-feared 57mm? After about 2 hrs they'd be Winchester.
Remember the Desert Storm episode where the Iraqis were "surrendering" to the spotting drones after suffering under a 16 inch barrage? No one surrenders to a passing $2 million T-hawk.
For me, the Omaha BB memory is walking the top of the cliff at Pont du Hoc, 50 years later among the shell craters of the USS Texas. a Moonscape
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-t3ZtYVbyRBE/VumX6W9aEeI/AAAAAAABMSk/vms5KygPwdM/pointe-du-hoc-126.jpg?imgmax=800
Sal,
A theme for some future Friday? Destroyer Squadron (DESRON) 18
https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/2014/june/navy-saved-our-hides
"Several of the Allied tanks were shooting at a particular spot on the bluffs, and carefully noting the location, Beer directed his ship’s guns to target those same positions. The Carmick fired a series of rapid-fire salvoes from her 5-inch guns into the suspicious area. After a few minutes, Beer saw that the tank gunners had shifted their fire to another site, and Beer directed his gunnery officer to follow suit. “It became evident,” Beer reported afterward, “that the Army was using tank fire in [the] hope that fire support vessels would see the target and take it under fire.”
Texas is about to be relaunched after being extensively repaired in drydock down in Galveston...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1v56q7qq0w
Where is the USS Arkansas today?
Bikini Atoll
Arkansas was engulfed in the column of water driven up by the powerful blast and quickly sank. She remains on the bottom of Bikini Atoll to this day.
Known a few Atomic Veterans. Most had a certificate to proudly hang on their wall, but were a little miffed about guinea pig aspect of it decades later.
I've been researching VCS-7 for years. After D-Day those guys went back to their SOC Seagulls for Operation Dragoon, and some were sadly shot down and killed.
VCS-7 was formed, mostly, because of the horrible losses of Observation planes during the invasion of Sicily (Operation Husky).
There are also rumors of VCS-6, Navy pilots in Mustangs in Italy, but I haven't found any documents to support that yet.
The transition from an SOC to a Mk IX Spitfire must have been interesting. And they just got in the airplane and did it. The stall speed alone was probably 50% higher.
They actually trained on Spitfire Vb's for a month beforehand at Middle Wallop, mostly by US Army pilots from the 67th Recon Group. They learned the British method of artillery spotting as it was more intuitive and efficient than ours. Alll the naval forces assigned to shore bombardment for Overlord use the British clock system.
VCS-7 transferred to RNAS Lee-on-Solent on May 28th, where there was a spotting pool of Spitfires and Seafires.
Vb's in mid-'44? Sure they had air superiority over the beaches along with air cover. But a Mk Vb in mid-44? I'd have doubted there were any Vb left in the ETO. (The RAF flew the Mohawk in the CBI until 12/43.)
Yep, old worn out planes that wouldn't be missed. Wanna see the photos? The allied plane to land in Europe was from VCS-7
Just read the article posted by Sid. Take a look at the exhaust stacks. Those were certainly not the typical Vb stacks. Perhaps the had been freshened up a bit and not war weary. (Turns out there were still six RAF squadrons still flying the Vb in Europe. Who knew?)
I learned a number of years ago that Vbs had both three and six stack exhausts.
I've seen pictures of those, but do not have links.
Ya' know? Fullbore is a wonderful thing. Yet, there's a certain fullbore (lower case) to the average command, with average sailors, doing average jobs, day in and day out with average results without complaint or problems.
BZ to the crew of BB-33 who weathered convoy duty in the North Atlantic, threats of aerial attack, submarines, surface raiders....and then went toe to toe with shore batteries. They just showed up and did the job when called.
The average sailor, the Snipe, Cook, Lookout, QM, SH, RD, HM...doing his average job, 8+ hour days inport in 4 section duty in homeport( or 3 section duty inport while deployed). 12-16 hour days at sea in 2 and 3 section duty. Sea/shore rotation from 5/2 to 3/3. Had a new Master Chief assigned to me. Young guy, had 14 years in, showed up in CNT's with an ESWS pin, a Good Conduct ribbon with 2 stars, a National Defense Service ribbon and a Sea Service Deployment ribbon. That's all. First thing he said to me was, "Before you ask, Sir, all I did was show up with a good attitude and did a great job. I'll do the same for you, Sir." He did. Most sailors I knew did likewise. They worked like wage slaves for a paltry salary. '65 to '91 were good years.
My grandfather was a junior enlisted on the Arkansas.
I'm glad he answered the call and had a relatively boring war.
Trade Solomons sea stories for coming home?
Fullbore. Grandpa Scoobs (the Blackshoe) was just a few miles away aboard his destroyer USS MEREDITH (DD-726) on the gunline off Utah Beach. In less than 48 hours his crew escorted an LST convoy across the English Channel, engaged in air defense, screened from E-boat attacks, and provided multiple NGFS fire missions operating in what I guess we'd call today a "multi-threat environment". MEREDITH' s luck ran out at 0152L on June 8th when while screening USS NEVADA she took a mortal blow at the waterline - her after action report claimed it was due to a mine strike but other ships in the area (including NEVADA) recorded it differently, claiming she was struck by an aerial launched Hs-293 radio-controlled glide bomb. Regardless of the cause, MEREDITH's keel was broken with only her main deck holding her together and she later foundered on the afternoon of June 9th, less than three months since she had been commissioned at Bath Iron Works.
There were plenty of Sumner Class DD's around when I went to the Fleet. Now I know why I never heard of Meredith until now.
Destroyers named Meredith did not fare well during WW2, with 726 and her predecessor DD-434 both being lost in action. A new construction Gearing class (DD-809) carried on the name but was commissioned postwar - Casa De Scoobs has a number of items related to 726’s brief service, including her commissioning pennant.
Recruiting may be a problem but even a battleship doesn’t have berthing room for 57 genders.
When they brought the BB's back for Vietnam they brought back some old WWII and Korean War sailors to man them. I heard they brought back oldsters for the New Jersey and Wisconsin later. I doubt those old salts had patience for any whining or mewling. If we brought BB's back now, I'm pretty sure any Gulf War call ups would kibosh caterwauling about LGBTQ issues PDQ and be damned to mincing DIE-H(a)R'ds
I'd be demanding to go back active, even if it means years of further service past 20. Be LCPO of 75 sailors in a 16" turret? Where do I sign!
And yet, I've said the biggest reason we can't have battleships is we don't have the skilled sailors to operate the physical plants. The end of oil fired steam propulsion is now just a matter of time. There's only two LCC's and six LHD's that still have boilers.
Came across this article today as I researched to find which BB my uncle served on in the Atlantic.
It’s for everyone who ever stood a mid watch or 12-4…
https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1959/january/first-watch
Cool, Sal! My father was the Asst Division Medical Officer for the 29th Div at Omaha (passed away in 1994) Was reading his rememberances a few days ago as we are preparing to go visit Omaha and he commented on the blast of the battleships when they shot over their heads as they were heading for the beach.... An incredible generation of me (and women-- mom was an Army nurse in WWII, treating the wounded from D-Day in England).
More on VCS-7...
https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/2022/december/british-connection-part-2
Has to be remembered that prewar naval Aviators would routinely be assigned to billets aboard cruisers and battleships, or flying boats, and then assigned in carrier aircraft.
So I would think this wasn't necessarily seen all that extraordinary at the time.
Recently dropped vid about the Arkansas...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gO6KzFWim_8
Desperately seeking recruits…
https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2024/01/26/navy-to-allow-those-without-high-school-diploma-or-ged-to-enlist/
Not entirely against it as the AFQT is 50 versus 31 for those with a degree.
Though McNamara's Project 100,000 didn't officially begin until 1966, we had Cat 4's in our bootcamp Company in November 1965. One I recall had scored a 20 on his GCT/ARI (pre-ASVAB). Anyone could triple that score just by picking an A, B, C or D and using that single letter to answer all the questions. That guy could not tie his shoes without help. He got sent to Aviation Storekeeper school, another to become an Electrician's Mate. Was a 17 year old dropout myself. Was interviewed by a Master Chief CTI because of my FLAT & GCT/ARI scores and all was going well until he said, "You have a high school diploma, right?" My "No, Sir" ended the interview. Just as well, as I might have ended up unemployed after 1973 when the need for Hmong linguists dried up. High school dropouts, as a group, don't do so well in the military. That might be for many reasons. Dumb, lack of gumption or work ethic, learning disability, substance abuser, behavioral problems...who knows? But I reckon I was lucky on that classification day. My rejection by the Cryppie Master Chief was noted by some kindly PN-2612 who snagged me to ask what I wanted to be. I told him Fire Control Technician. He asked why. Told him I wanted to drive a red truck and fight fires. He made me a Radarman. An incredibly lucky break. /// But as a separate issue, what is a 2024 high school diploma worth? As long as the AFQT/ASVAB can remain a true and accurate measurement of useful potential that should remain the best screening device. I think it would be wise if the military had a Gold Standard for recruitment, but when they get desperate they could grant blanket or individual waivers with a quick disconnect clause in the contract to ka-Whoosh the folks not working out. A simple "Begone" and no admin or VA burden. Like panning for gold.