For any reader of this blog, that article is like garlic, lemon juice, and salt on a hundred razor blade cuts. Painful to read, but oh so important to remember.
Took 3 years of Latin in high school. Learned little Latin but learned a love for language. SPQR: Senatus Populusque Romanus. 11 years ago I commissioned a sword from a well known Canadian blacksmith. I named it The SPQRK. I want to share this with you.
My submitted name has a bit of irony since most of my lineage is of those who, when they were not trading with the Imperium, were testing Rome's Rhine and Danube limes. In later years, they would sail in longships to bother whomever they could find. Salve, comes.
Thanks. The Other Sal's delivery allowed me to shake my head vigorously in dismay and stare heavenward in pleading as he gave his presentation without interrupting the information flow, not something I could easily do with This Sal's presentation.
Bryan: I don't think we will know if we're worthless until the missiles start to fly in the Western Pacific. The Chinese Navy has nowhere near the skill of the IJN at the start of WWII. And our people, while similarly lacking in combat experience, are incredibly capable. I'd place my bet on them.
And, I suspect I shouldn't post after a glass of wine. My (partial) apologies.
Drove through the Navy Yard at Philly today - looked at an LPD that I, a young & dumb Marine, once conned. Time to paint her and get her back on the open seas. s/f
The phrase “black shoe admiral” reminds me that we won that war with a lot of admirals in that category. You want real improvement in tactical thinking over the next ten or twenty years? Get real competition for senior aviation billets. Use the same standards of “Aviation Observer” that were invoked n WW2 for command of our carriers and carrier groups today. But everyone at that paygrade simply wants more and more of the status quo. Can’t shake up the Navy union system, you know. I deeply regret that without another very bloody war, nothing will change.
I was on my one and only Aircraft Carrier, CVA-19, when I promoted to Chief. Had been a surface wienie up until then and had worn black shoes. Then "poof", I became a Brown Shoe. All Chiefs and Officers wore brown shoes back then. Alas, 2 years later the Great Divide in shoe color descended on us again like an iron curtain. I kept that pair of brown shoes and my inspection pair for several years before I tossed them. But brown shoes? George Gobel said it best, skip to 00:20. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efHVcgUajtA&ab_channel=JimWilson
I remember the Great Divide OPNAV. As an NROTC Midshipman, I had spent four years wearing black shoes since we were considered mere Reservists, and Reservists were told to not spend money on an extra pair of shoes. I don’t know what the USNA regs were then. As a surface Ensign, I then wore brown shoes until “the day”. I tried to keep wearing brown, but my XO caught me in a passageway the next morning and nicely, but firmly, reminded me of the OPHAV. “Yes, sir” was the only acceptable reply. It’s interesting how small things can mean so much, or reveal an attitude so petty. Maybe CNO should declare that naval aviators are to go back to their original uniform of jodhpurs and riding boots. That would be special. Or maybe we could just knock off all of the BS and concentrate on winning the next war.
I just might have followed any CNO to Hell and back if he'd approved the wearing of a pith helmet. It could have let me avoid Mohs surgeries and liquid nitrogen burn offs. Having joined at 17 everything seemed kind of "Ops Normal", no matter how weird and petty I view them now in hindsight, decades later. Lord, I was blind to a lot of cr_pola or had just developed a survival skill and hadn't realized it. And "Yes, Sir", with a sincere smile, worked wonders. One last thing. Brown shoes don't show so bad when walking through and kicking aside the BS.
Khaki pith helmets actually were approved uniform wear back in 1974-75. The only reason I know was that while we were in WESTPAC, the Ensign I shared a stateroom with looked it up and wore one while on watch in the pilot house. His reasoning was that it kept the sun out of his face much better than a baseball cap did. But that also may have been caused by his watching way too many Cubs games from the cheap seats. (Just going by the available evidence…)
If I am ever called back to Active Duty, and the poor recruiting stats militate for that, I am going to insist that my personal pronouns are "Winston" and "Erwin" and shriek at them if they try to tell me those are proper nouns. I will wear a pith helmet suitable to my new pronouns, as is my right, and if they trifle with me, it will be at their peril. I was TAD to an AD in Newport for 2 weeks after graduating from EW Operator school in 1967, awaiting my DE to return from sea. Aboard that AD there was a Phantom Sh_tter. Yes, they are not some mythic boogeyman. They are real. I saw the handy work with my own eyes. I take Metformin and often go nuclear as a side effect. I swear that I am no crudenik, but if they want a war I'll do what duty calls for. Just like Curtis LeMay.
I remember wearing brown shoes with khakis until that day. Also leather jackets, special sun glasses/glasses etc. for the airdales. Of course all of those came eventually to us surface types. Only Aviation Working Green remained--I think it was a sharp uniform, even if one looked like a Marine on first glance. And yes, I liked Service Dress Khaki too!
1974. Brand new CPO. Got a half dozen sets of tailored gabardine khakis, size 32 waist. Brown shoes, tan socks. That long sleeve khaki shirt with black tie, piss-cutter hat. Best uniform ever, made me feel 10-tall. Then the reality of the Chief's Mess brought me low. I outgrew that sartorial splendor. Thereafter, it was Wash Khaki's aboard and CNT's ashore. Nowhere near as glorious as that brief period from November 1974 to about February 1975.
I agree with all 6 items, though I'd order them differently. I think there is another point to be made on LUCK
"If the cruiser Tone’s scout had found our ships on time then the two air fleets would have struck each other almost simultaneously and our outnumbered forces would have lost the battle."
Far more important, if Tone's scout, etc, etc...The Japanese carrier decks would have been cleared of half their planes, meaning far less damage AND those planes in the air, could have returned to a higher number of surviving carriers, and flown subsequent strikes.
as for the conclusions:
"By the end of 1942 both sides were reduced to one operating carrier, so that both sides had to rebuild their carrier fleets in 1943. As to aircraft losses, in the five big Pacific air battles, one-third of our aircraft were lost per battle, and two-thirds were lost per battle on the Japanese side."
Not enough is made of the very small Japanese pilot replacement pipeline. After Midway, they lost the bulk of their trained crews and never again had enough pilots to fill all their carriers.
- even absent Japanese radar, a Tone sighting would alert the Jap CAP, potentially increasing it and likely managing it better
- as mentioned before, a Jap counterstrike gets launched reducing the fire vulnerability of the carriers.
- with a bit of warning, all those excess HE bombs meant for a second Midway strike could go over the side, or back to magazines
- the first 3 Jap carrier losses were struck by a total; of 4, 1, and 3 bombs. absent the fueled planes and ordnance by then in the air to the US carriers, do 1 or 2 of those 3 carriers survive?
I recommend you folks read "Shattered Sword"; you'll learn a LOT about the CAP and why the counterstrike was delayed and why that ordnance couldn't get back to the magazines or even over the side. You'll learn a LOT about IJN DC doctrine and carrier construction that led directly to the loss of ships that might have been saved.
As I recall, Spruance was a destroyer captain, and Nimitz commended him by saying, "Anyone who can keep his destroyers alongside our Carriers at flank speed, can command a carrier."
I don't think our commanders of today would be able to fight half as well as the greatest generation did. They had totally new technology, totally new tactics, and not only beat the Japanese, but also the Germans, and the Italians.
Thanks for reposting Captain Hughes essay. I had the great honor to be his student at NPS. He was my thesis advisor and I learned so much about tactics, operations, analysis, and strategy from the great man.
Relating to the note in the article about the "Tone float plane" (though Parshall and Tully have some interesting assertions about that element too), a sometimes-overlooked contribution is the fact that the USN got to French Frigate Shoals and parked a couple seaplane tenders (Ballard and Thornton) there, denying it as an anchorage and seaplane base to the Japanese. It's not as momentous as the six elements cited in the article, but it mattered.
I've read a fair amount about the Pacific war, and my reading suggests we got more useful intel from our Catalinas than the Japanese did from their flying boats (and the H8Ks at least were first-rate aircraft). They say fighters make movies, and bombers make history, but the All-Seeing Eyes In The Sky make it all possible. ("What's your favorite military aircraft?" "E-2 Hawkeye." "Huh?") :-D
I have vast admiration for the immortal courage and skill of the sailors and aviators who fought at Midway and the other naval battles of the Pacific. With the deepest respect for Captain Hughes' list of factors affecting the Battle of Midway, I bring to your attention to another band of heroes, the sailors who fought on the Yorktown. Damaged at Coral Sea, returned to combat status in a marvelous feat, at Midway, the ship was struck, reported sunk, returned to action, hit again, and might have survived the battle if not for a submarine attack.
I try to imagine those in the engineering spaces below deck, fighting to save a severely damaged ship. Fires, smoke, escaping steam, badly hurt comrades, incoming water, yet these brave sailors kept their composure, effectively, efficiently working to save their wounded ship. Twice they not only saved the carrier they brought the Yorktown back to fighting capability, contributing aircraft to sinking the fourth carrier.
The Japanese were fooled into believing they had sunk a carrier ( by this time, they knew the American force incorporated two carriers). When they detected a seemingly unhurt Yorktown underway, they focused their attacks on the Yorktown rather than attacking the Enterprise.
Amazing courage and devotion to duty was common on both sides, in the air and on the ships. We must remember. Thank you for reminding us.
Since my two tours at NWC, Spruance has been a hero of mine. I did not start to appreciate Fletcher until later, but the more one looks, particularly at contemporary situations, the better he looks to me. It's enough to think we should not require carrier COs to be aviators, much less CVBG commandefrs.
To get a good understanding of carrier warfare from the attack on Pearl Harbor, to the Battle of Midway, I recommend "The First Team, Pacific Naval Air Combat from Pearl Harbor to Midway" by John B. Lundstrom. Those pilots and crewmen were fearless. A great read.
The good Captain left out the rest of Torpedo EIGHT; the six Avengers flying from Midway. LT Langdon Fieberling's attack drew USS Nautilus into the battle; Nautilus' attacks resulted in IJN Arashi scrambling to rejoin after suppressing Nautilus. Arashi's wake led McCluskey and the Enterprise strike group to Kido Butai.
George Gay was the "Sole Survivor" who launched from Hornet; ENS Bert Earnest and ARM3 Harry Ferrier were the "Other Sole Survivors" of the 18 men launching from Midway. Unlike Gay who went back to the states and unwanted fame; Bert and Harry went back to the fight. Both men survived a lot of missions and flew combat throughout the war.
You want "Fullbore"? Bert and Harry fill the bill.
Dammit sir, I hate you.
Your always true stories make me cry. Are we really that worthless today?? We should all commit seppeku.
See today’s propublica article on the LCS??
Thank you. And F the joint staff/Goldwater.
I try to hold the crying for Saturday mornings. Wife does not understand.
Link to the above ProPublica article: https://www.propublica.org/article/how-navy-spent-billions-littoral-combat-ship
Thanks, Bryan.
It was a very long read but am glad I read it even though I had to choke down bile and rage.
For any reader of this blog, that article is like garlic, lemon juice, and salt on a hundred razor blade cuts. Painful to read, but oh so important to remember.
Took 3 years of Latin in high school. Learned little Latin but learned a love for language. SPQR: Senatus Populusque Romanus. 11 years ago I commissioned a sword from a well known Canadian blacksmith. I named it The SPQRK. I want to share this with you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k51lGAdMzYs&ab_channel=WinbotAH
For those about to dine, we salute you.
My submitted name has a bit of irony since most of my lineage is of those who, when they were not trading with the Imperium, were testing Rome's Rhine and Danube limes. In later years, they would sail in longships to bother whomever they could find. Salve, comes.
The other Sal on the report. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5TuEKg48jY
Thanks. The Other Sal's delivery allowed me to shake my head vigorously in dismay and stare heavenward in pleading as he gave his presentation without interrupting the information flow, not something I could easily do with This Sal's presentation.
Bryan: I don't think we will know if we're worthless until the missiles start to fly in the Western Pacific. The Chinese Navy has nowhere near the skill of the IJN at the start of WWII. And our people, while similarly lacking in combat experience, are incredibly capable. I'd place my bet on them.
Sir, I suspect your correct.
And, I suspect I shouldn't post after a glass of wine. My (partial) apologies.
Drove through the Navy Yard at Philly today - looked at an LPD that I, a young & dumb Marine, once conned. Time to paint her and get her back on the open seas. s/f
The phrase “black shoe admiral” reminds me that we won that war with a lot of admirals in that category. You want real improvement in tactical thinking over the next ten or twenty years? Get real competition for senior aviation billets. Use the same standards of “Aviation Observer” that were invoked n WW2 for command of our carriers and carrier groups today. But everyone at that paygrade simply wants more and more of the status quo. Can’t shake up the Navy union system, you know. I deeply regret that without another very bloody war, nothing will change.
I was on my one and only Aircraft Carrier, CVA-19, when I promoted to Chief. Had been a surface wienie up until then and had worn black shoes. Then "poof", I became a Brown Shoe. All Chiefs and Officers wore brown shoes back then. Alas, 2 years later the Great Divide in shoe color descended on us again like an iron curtain. I kept that pair of brown shoes and my inspection pair for several years before I tossed them. But brown shoes? George Gobel said it best, skip to 00:20. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efHVcgUajtA&ab_channel=JimWilson
I remember the Great Divide OPNAV. As an NROTC Midshipman, I had spent four years wearing black shoes since we were considered mere Reservists, and Reservists were told to not spend money on an extra pair of shoes. I don’t know what the USNA regs were then. As a surface Ensign, I then wore brown shoes until “the day”. I tried to keep wearing brown, but my XO caught me in a passageway the next morning and nicely, but firmly, reminded me of the OPHAV. “Yes, sir” was the only acceptable reply. It’s interesting how small things can mean so much, or reveal an attitude so petty. Maybe CNO should declare that naval aviators are to go back to their original uniform of jodhpurs and riding boots. That would be special. Or maybe we could just knock off all of the BS and concentrate on winning the next war.
I just might have followed any CNO to Hell and back if he'd approved the wearing of a pith helmet. It could have let me avoid Mohs surgeries and liquid nitrogen burn offs. Having joined at 17 everything seemed kind of "Ops Normal", no matter how weird and petty I view them now in hindsight, decades later. Lord, I was blind to a lot of cr_pola or had just developed a survival skill and hadn't realized it. And "Yes, Sir", with a sincere smile, worked wonders. One last thing. Brown shoes don't show so bad when walking through and kicking aside the BS.
Khaki pith helmets actually were approved uniform wear back in 1974-75. The only reason I know was that while we were in WESTPAC, the Ensign I shared a stateroom with looked it up and wore one while on watch in the pilot house. His reasoning was that it kept the sun out of his face much better than a baseball cap did. But that also may have been caused by his watching way too many Cubs games from the cheap seats. (Just going by the available evidence…)
If I am ever called back to Active Duty, and the poor recruiting stats militate for that, I am going to insist that my personal pronouns are "Winston" and "Erwin" and shriek at them if they try to tell me those are proper nouns. I will wear a pith helmet suitable to my new pronouns, as is my right, and if they trifle with me, it will be at their peril. I was TAD to an AD in Newport for 2 weeks after graduating from EW Operator school in 1967, awaiting my DE to return from sea. Aboard that AD there was a Phantom Sh_tter. Yes, they are not some mythic boogeyman. They are real. I saw the handy work with my own eyes. I take Metformin and often go nuclear as a side effect. I swear that I am no crudenik, but if they want a war I'll do what duty calls for. Just like Curtis LeMay.
You could have joined the Brits and worn Pith Helmet, Shorts and still enjoyed a shot of rum every day! Plus you would have learned to speak funny.
I remember wearing brown shoes with khakis until that day. Also leather jackets, special sun glasses/glasses etc. for the airdales. Of course all of those came eventually to us surface types. Only Aviation Working Green remained--I think it was a sharp uniform, even if one looked like a Marine on first glance. And yes, I liked Service Dress Khaki too!
1974. Brand new CPO. Got a half dozen sets of tailored gabardine khakis, size 32 waist. Brown shoes, tan socks. That long sleeve khaki shirt with black tie, piss-cutter hat. Best uniform ever, made me feel 10-tall. Then the reality of the Chief's Mess brought me low. I outgrew that sartorial splendor. Thereafter, it was Wash Khaki's aboard and CNT's ashore. Nowhere near as glorious as that brief period from November 1974 to about February 1975.
This is ready to be deployed to all media outlets in case of war with China, right?
I agree with all 6 items, though I'd order them differently. I think there is another point to be made on LUCK
"If the cruiser Tone’s scout had found our ships on time then the two air fleets would have struck each other almost simultaneously and our outnumbered forces would have lost the battle."
Far more important, if Tone's scout, etc, etc...The Japanese carrier decks would have been cleared of half their planes, meaning far less damage AND those planes in the air, could have returned to a higher number of surviving carriers, and flown subsequent strikes.
as for the conclusions:
"By the end of 1942 both sides were reduced to one operating carrier, so that both sides had to rebuild their carrier fleets in 1943. As to aircraft losses, in the five big Pacific air battles, one-third of our aircraft were lost per battle, and two-thirds were lost per battle on the Japanese side."
Not enough is made of the very small Japanese pilot replacement pipeline. After Midway, they lost the bulk of their trained crews and never again had enough pilots to fill all their carriers.
more on the incredible unlucky Tone Scout:
- even absent Japanese radar, a Tone sighting would alert the Jap CAP, potentially increasing it and likely managing it better
- as mentioned before, a Jap counterstrike gets launched reducing the fire vulnerability of the carriers.
- with a bit of warning, all those excess HE bombs meant for a second Midway strike could go over the side, or back to magazines
- the first 3 Jap carrier losses were struck by a total; of 4, 1, and 3 bombs. absent the fueled planes and ordnance by then in the air to the US carriers, do 1 or 2 of those 3 carriers survive?
I recommend you folks read "Shattered Sword"; you'll learn a LOT about the CAP and why the counterstrike was delayed and why that ordnance couldn't get back to the magazines or even over the side. You'll learn a LOT about IJN DC doctrine and carrier construction that led directly to the loss of ships that might have been saved.
As I recall, Spruance was a destroyer captain, and Nimitz commended him by saying, "Anyone who can keep his destroyers alongside our Carriers at flank speed, can command a carrier."
I don't think our commanders of today would be able to fight half as well as the greatest generation did. They had totally new technology, totally new tactics, and not only beat the Japanese, but also the Germans, and the Italians.
Actually that was ADM Halsey's reply.
Outstanding! Content, background and story.
The next time we fight at sea it will be a real gut busting Navy war.
In Harm's Way?
Yes sir Kirk Douglas comment.
A great, under appreciated movie about our fighting Navy.
When we HAD a fighting Navy; the Navy I thought I was joining, alas, NOT the case.
Thanks for reposting Captain Hughes essay. I had the great honor to be his student at NPS. He was my thesis advisor and I learned so much about tactics, operations, analysis, and strategy from the great man.
I have the first and third editions of (ed: corrected title) Fleet Tactics. Wonderful book.
Relating to the note in the article about the "Tone float plane" (though Parshall and Tully have some interesting assertions about that element too), a sometimes-overlooked contribution is the fact that the USN got to French Frigate Shoals and parked a couple seaplane tenders (Ballard and Thornton) there, denying it as an anchorage and seaplane base to the Japanese. It's not as momentous as the six elements cited in the article, but it mattered.
I've read a fair amount about the Pacific war, and my reading suggests we got more useful intel from our Catalinas than the Japanese did from their flying boats (and the H8Ks at least were first-rate aircraft). They say fighters make movies, and bombers make history, but the All-Seeing Eyes In The Sky make it all possible. ("What's your favorite military aircraft?" "E-2 Hawkeye." "Huh?") :-D
Ah! Someone who's read "Shattered Sword"! A crucial resource for better understanding of that battle
I have vast admiration for the immortal courage and skill of the sailors and aviators who fought at Midway and the other naval battles of the Pacific. With the deepest respect for Captain Hughes' list of factors affecting the Battle of Midway, I bring to your attention to another band of heroes, the sailors who fought on the Yorktown. Damaged at Coral Sea, returned to combat status in a marvelous feat, at Midway, the ship was struck, reported sunk, returned to action, hit again, and might have survived the battle if not for a submarine attack.
I try to imagine those in the engineering spaces below deck, fighting to save a severely damaged ship. Fires, smoke, escaping steam, badly hurt comrades, incoming water, yet these brave sailors kept their composure, effectively, efficiently working to save their wounded ship. Twice they not only saved the carrier they brought the Yorktown back to fighting capability, contributing aircraft to sinking the fourth carrier.
The Japanese were fooled into believing they had sunk a carrier ( by this time, they knew the American force incorporated two carriers). When they detected a seemingly unhurt Yorktown underway, they focused their attacks on the Yorktown rather than attacking the Enterprise.
Amazing courage and devotion to duty was common on both sides, in the air and on the ships. We must remember. Thank you for reminding us.
Since my two tours at NWC, Spruance has been a hero of mine. I did not start to appreciate Fletcher until later, but the more one looks, particularly at contemporary situations, the better he looks to me. It's enough to think we should not require carrier COs to be aviators, much less CVBG commandefrs.
Captain Hughes was the absolute real deal. A brilliant tactician and keen analyst of naval warfare. His passing was a true loss to the Navy
Thank you for this and well done! If you haven't read it yet, I commend the book Shattered Sword to you.
To get a good understanding of carrier warfare from the attack on Pearl Harbor, to the Battle of Midway, I recommend "The First Team, Pacific Naval Air Combat from Pearl Harbor to Midway" by John B. Lundstrom. Those pilots and crewmen were fearless. A great read.
never apologize for alcohol-enabled posts!
Which LPD, if I may ask? I was Co of troops on the Steaming Cleve and again on the Shreveport
The good Captain left out the rest of Torpedo EIGHT; the six Avengers flying from Midway. LT Langdon Fieberling's attack drew USS Nautilus into the battle; Nautilus' attacks resulted in IJN Arashi scrambling to rejoin after suppressing Nautilus. Arashi's wake led McCluskey and the Enterprise strike group to Kido Butai.
George Gay was the "Sole Survivor" who launched from Hornet; ENS Bert Earnest and ARM3 Harry Ferrier were the "Other Sole Survivors" of the 18 men launching from Midway. Unlike Gay who went back to the states and unwanted fame; Bert and Harry went back to the fight. Both men survived a lot of missions and flew combat throughout the war.
You want "Fullbore"? Bert and Harry fill the bill.