A decade ago I had just finished the Norwegian campaign part of William L. Shirer's, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich: A History of Nazi Germany, and was reminded of one of my favorite FbF from the first decade of this century. As we’re on a Norway theme so far this April and with all the new readers since the Obama Administration, I thought I’d bring it back.
These were confusing times for Norway. She had bent over backwards to appease the Germans, yet here they were. Hard to blame the commanders on scene for hesitation in view of the national policy. There are lessons for us here. Something about an uncertain trumpet. Still, the RN came in and cleaned up at Narvik a little later.
So I have a WW2 period Naval gunnery question. Is the concept of "Battlesight' used?
In the Army Tank business we carried our guns ranged at 800 meters for quick draw situations. If a close range enemy appeared (0-1200 meters) you just pointed the gun at the bottom of the enemy turret and the ballistic arc was such at 1575 m/s that you'd hit the tank somewhere.
I ask because of this:
" at a range of about 800 metres. Due to the difficult weather conditions, the guns' optical sights were ineffective: the first salvo fell short of the target and the next ones overshot it."
IMO, you're either trained up and ready or you are not. There is no in-between simply because you can't build up mindset overnight. The Kriegsmarine knew they were at war. We do not as either a nation or culture inculcate that attitude as well as older countries with longer martial traditions. Neither did Norway.
This sentence was interesting: "In the meantime, a second German destroyer crossed behind Eidsvold and took up a position 700 metres from the vessel, ready to fire her torpedoes."
It seems the delay to talk also significantly altered the tactical situation, from "we can put up a good fight" to "we're dead as soon as we fire."
Tuco comes to mind. If you need to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
This makes me think about our boats that surrendered to the Iranians a while back...
The Norwegian crew and leadership chose to fire in what they knew was a bad situation at best. Our crew chose to surrender even though initially they had superior firepower. Im afraid we don't have enough emphasis on being a warrior these days...
The Germans were a flotilla of warships in sovereign Norwegian waters. It should be this simple: fight or run. They weren't on a diplomatic mission nor were they blown off course. You get 1 shot across the bow, the next one is literally on you.
Not sure if it was mentioned, but the movie, "Narvik," on Netflix, is well done. Released in 2022, the Norweigen film is about this particular period in WWII history.
I have read Commander Salamander's posts for many years but never made a comment. I have 8+ years enlisted and about 20 years as a Medical Service Corps (Ph.D. scientist) Officer. The Pandemic Preparedness Treaty is being pushed by the UN/WHO as the ONLY way to deal with Interenational public health threats. Nations would not have any rights to deal with the situation on their own and any dissent would be totally censored. Total lockdowns and digital IDs could be call for. What constitutes a "public health emergency" is not defined. Anything the WHO wants to call an emergency will becomes one. Representative Chris Smith (R, New Jersey) has an hour long press conference on his website where numerous people detail the extent to which the WHO would suspend our laws and Constitutional rights. Everyone who reads the posts here must watch the press conference. Commander Salamander SHOULD do an entire post about it. The Chinese Communist navy is a threat. Inviting the Chinese Communist dominated WHO in to run your country is sucide.
If they had planned better, a trawler would have been stationed more seaward to make the initial detection and inquires. This is an example of the same mistake made by HMAS Sydney when it was sunk by the merchant cruiser Kormoran, getting well inside effective torpedo range before making a determination of hostility. https://chuckhillscgblog.net/2012/06/23/approaching-a-merchant-ship-may-be-hazardous-sydney-vs-kormoran/
Iran has attacked Israel with drones and also apparently with cruise missiles. Thank you, Jake Sullivan. You gave us the Russia collusion hoax in 2016 when you worked for the Hillary Cliinton campaign, and now in 2024 you give us a war between Iran and Israel.
These were confusing times for Norway. She had bent over backwards to appease the Germans, yet here they were. Hard to blame the commanders on scene for hesitation in view of the national policy. There are lessons for us here. Something about an uncertain trumpet. Still, the RN came in and cleaned up at Narvik a little later.
The USN is in more difficult times as seen by this... we have become a laughingstock https://www.breitbart.com/2nd-amendment/2024/04/10/u-s-navy-mocked-photo-commander-rifle-scope-mounted-backwards/
My personal RoE was, My gunny will tell me when to shoot and who to kill.
"Are your Sailors as trained on their weapons as they need to be? Damage control? Combat readiness? Balls? " Questions for our own Navy today.
So I have a WW2 period Naval gunnery question. Is the concept of "Battlesight' used?
In the Army Tank business we carried our guns ranged at 800 meters for quick draw situations. If a close range enemy appeared (0-1200 meters) you just pointed the gun at the bottom of the enemy turret and the ballistic arc was such at 1575 m/s that you'd hit the tank somewhere.
I ask because of this:
" at a range of about 800 metres. Due to the difficult weather conditions, the guns' optical sights were ineffective: the first salvo fell short of the target and the next ones overshot it."
how did they miss with 12 rounds at 800 meters?
IMO, you're either trained up and ready or you are not. There is no in-between simply because you can't build up mindset overnight. The Kriegsmarine knew they were at war. We do not as either a nation or culture inculcate that attitude as well as older countries with longer martial traditions. Neither did Norway.
Great read. But one of the best books I have read on Nazi Germany was about banker Hjalmar Schacht. I strongly recommend it.
Hitler's Banker: Hjalmar Horace Greeley Schacht by John Weitz
Great read BTW
This sentence was interesting: "In the meantime, a second German destroyer crossed behind Eidsvold and took up a position 700 metres from the vessel, ready to fire her torpedoes."
It seems the delay to talk also significantly altered the tactical situation, from "we can put up a good fight" to "we're dead as soon as we fire."
Tuco comes to mind. If you need to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
This makes me think about our boats that surrendered to the Iranians a while back...
The Norwegian crew and leadership chose to fire in what they knew was a bad situation at best. Our crew chose to surrender even though initially they had superior firepower. Im afraid we don't have enough emphasis on being a warrior these days...
The Germans were a flotilla of warships in sovereign Norwegian waters. It should be this simple: fight or run. They weren't on a diplomatic mission nor were they blown off course. You get 1 shot across the bow, the next one is literally on you.
No problem, just keep giving me something different to read. I appreciate that.
Not sure if it was mentioned, but the movie, "Narvik," on Netflix, is well done. Released in 2022, the Norweigen film is about this particular period in WWII history.
My Gunny was part demon and part father figure, according to the problem his young Marines brought to his attention LOL.
I have read Commander Salamander's posts for many years but never made a comment. I have 8+ years enlisted and about 20 years as a Medical Service Corps (Ph.D. scientist) Officer. The Pandemic Preparedness Treaty is being pushed by the UN/WHO as the ONLY way to deal with Interenational public health threats. Nations would not have any rights to deal with the situation on their own and any dissent would be totally censored. Total lockdowns and digital IDs could be call for. What constitutes a "public health emergency" is not defined. Anything the WHO wants to call an emergency will becomes one. Representative Chris Smith (R, New Jersey) has an hour long press conference on his website where numerous people detail the extent to which the WHO would suspend our laws and Constitutional rights. Everyone who reads the posts here must watch the press conference. Commander Salamander SHOULD do an entire post about it. The Chinese Communist navy is a threat. Inviting the Chinese Communist dominated WHO in to run your country is sucide.
If they had planned better, a trawler would have been stationed more seaward to make the initial detection and inquires. This is an example of the same mistake made by HMAS Sydney when it was sunk by the merchant cruiser Kormoran, getting well inside effective torpedo range before making a determination of hostility. https://chuckhillscgblog.net/2012/06/23/approaching-a-merchant-ship-may-be-hazardous-sydney-vs-kormoran/
Iran has attacked Israel with drones and also apparently with cruise missiles. Thank you, Jake Sullivan. You gave us the Russia collusion hoax in 2016 when you worked for the Hillary Cliinton campaign, and now in 2024 you give us a war between Iran and Israel.