These were confusing times for Norway. She had bent over backwards to appease the Germans, yet here they were. Hard to blame the commanders on scene for hesitation in view of the national policy. There are lessons for us here. Something about an uncertain trumpet. Still, the RN came in and cleaned up at Narvik a little later.
Every small arms famfire I ever witnessed on 7 ships was a joke. Some sailors got to fire off a few rounds and scored bullseyes on the open ocean. The only time I ever fired a Navy small arm in 26 years was when I had 24 in and qualified for the pistol ribbon. In the interim, I carried a .45 as POOW and ran SAT drills every duty day as CDO on my last 2 ships.
Jeff: I think the photo was either taken and intended as a joke, or, was Photoshopped. There are some areas beneath the scope tube, to the front and rear of the scope mount, that appear black, where we should only see blue sky. Also, the size of the scope (which appears to be a LVPO (low-power variable optic), seems out of scale; too large.
Having been a Drill Sergeant and later a combat arms officer, I've run many ranges so I'm always warmed by the Gunny's range management style and Capt Ack Ack's response. Enjoy:
In combat a man should do everything ethically possible to survive and win. RoE can run a close second. I hate to imagine how wrecked RoE could become fully woke.
I had the pleasure of appointing a Gunny Sergeant from the CTT ELINT course to be LCPO for EW"A" School when the EWCS left without a relief. He was the senior E-7 I had. It was a Kierkegaardian "Fear & Trembling and The Sickness Unto Death" moment for the staff, though only temporarily. They got over it. What a great guy Gunny Davis was.
So I have a WW2 period Naval gunnery question. Is the concept of "Battlesight' used?
In the Army Tank business we carried our guns ranged at 800 meters for quick draw situations. If a close range enemy appeared (0-1200 meters) you just pointed the gun at the bottom of the enemy turret and the ballistic arc was such at 1575 m/s that you'd hit the tank somewhere.
I ask because of this:
" at a range of about 800 metres. Due to the difficult weather conditions, the guns' optical sights were ineffective: the first salvo fell short of the target and the next ones overshot it."
Old ships...maybe the guns were not gyro stabilized. Poor collimation? Shot out barrels? They should have "Fitzed" the barrels and fired grape or cannister.
IMO, you're either trained up and ready or you are not. There is no in-between simply because you can't build up mindset overnight. The Kriegsmarine knew they were at war. We do not as either a nation or culture inculcate that attitude as well as older countries with longer martial traditions. Neither did Norway.
This sentence was interesting: "In the meantime, a second German destroyer crossed behind Eidsvold and took up a position 700 metres from the vessel, ready to fire her torpedoes."
It seems the delay to talk also significantly altered the tactical situation, from "we can put up a good fight" to "we're dead as soon as we fire."
Tuco comes to mind. If you need to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
This makes me think about our boats that surrendered to the Iranians a while back...
The Norwegian crew and leadership chose to fire in what they knew was a bad situation at best. Our crew chose to surrender even though initially they had superior firepower. Im afraid we don't have enough emphasis on being a warrior these days...
On the other hand, firing on Iranian ships in Iranian waters is probably a worse course of action. An emphasis on following orders and navigation would have been more useful.
The Germans were a flotilla of warships in sovereign Norwegian waters. It should be this simple: fight or run. They weren't on a diplomatic mission nor were they blown off course. You get 1 shot across the bow, the next one is literally on you.
Methinks the mindset transition from peace to war is a difficult one to make for the majority of people. Even when it's staring you right in the face and poking you in the chest.
Completely agree, Jet. Nobody really wants to be held responsible for starting a war but some decisions are made for you. Are you a navy or a cruise line? Are you a diplomat or a naval officer? Are you authorized to negotiate anything on your nation's behalf or are you empowered to resist armed incursions? It really is that simple. If you choose to fight, claim that first strike. A warrior's disciplined ethic is sorely lacking now among junior officers. Everywhere.
Not sure if it was mentioned, but the movie, "Narvik," on Netflix, is well done. Released in 2022, the Norweigen film is about this particular period in WWII history.
I have read Commander Salamander's posts for many years but never made a comment. I have 8+ years enlisted and about 20 years as a Medical Service Corps (Ph.D. scientist) Officer. The Pandemic Preparedness Treaty is being pushed by the UN/WHO as the ONLY way to deal with Interenational public health threats. Nations would not have any rights to deal with the situation on their own and any dissent would be totally censored. Total lockdowns and digital IDs could be call for. What constitutes a "public health emergency" is not defined. Anything the WHO wants to call an emergency will becomes one. Representative Chris Smith (R, New Jersey) has an hour long press conference on his website where numerous people detail the extent to which the WHO would suspend our laws and Constitutional rights. Everyone who reads the posts here must watch the press conference. Commander Salamander SHOULD do an entire post about it. The Chinese Communist navy is a threat. Inviting the Chinese Communist dominated WHO in to run your country is sucide.
If they had planned better, a trawler would have been stationed more seaward to make the initial detection and inquires. This is an example of the same mistake made by HMAS Sydney when it was sunk by the merchant cruiser Kormoran, getting well inside effective torpedo range before making a determination of hostility. https://chuckhillscgblog.net/2012/06/23/approaching-a-merchant-ship-may-be-hazardous-sydney-vs-kormoran/
Iran has attacked Israel with drones and also apparently with cruise missiles. Thank you, Jake Sullivan. You gave us the Russia collusion hoax in 2016 when you worked for the Hillary Cliinton campaign, and now in 2024 you give us a war between Iran and Israel.
These were confusing times for Norway. She had bent over backwards to appease the Germans, yet here they were. Hard to blame the commanders on scene for hesitation in view of the national policy. There are lessons for us here. Something about an uncertain trumpet. Still, the RN came in and cleaned up at Narvik a little later.
The USN is in more difficult times as seen by this... we have become a laughingstock https://www.breitbart.com/2nd-amendment/2024/04/10/u-s-navy-mocked-photo-commander-rifle-scope-mounted-backwards/
USN Small Arms training has nearly always been inadequate -to include that of most Gunner's Mates.
We became a laughingstock some years ago; this is just the most recent example.
at least the dangerous end was pointed toward the water ...
Every small arms famfire I ever witnessed on 7 ships was a joke. Some sailors got to fire off a few rounds and scored bullseyes on the open ocean. The only time I ever fired a Navy small arm in 26 years was when I had 24 in and qualified for the pistol ribbon. In the interim, I carried a .45 as POOW and ran SAT drills every duty day as CDO on my last 2 ships.
Jeff: I think the photo was either taken and intended as a joke, or, was Photoshopped. There are some areas beneath the scope tube, to the front and rear of the scope mount, that appear black, where we should only see blue sky. Also, the size of the scope (which appears to be a LVPO (low-power variable optic), seems out of scale; too large.
The scope is a Trijicon VCOG, and it's definitely mounted backwards.
SPQR: I just thought seemed too "planned" that the photo was suddenly all over the internet, as if it were a staged meme, to prove a point.
No, just the power of stupid people in large groups.
My personal RoE was, My gunny will tell me when to shoot and who to kill.
Having been a Drill Sergeant and later a combat arms officer, I've run many ranges so I'm always warmed by the Gunny's range management style and Capt Ack Ack's response. Enjoy:
https://youtu.be/Mu51rszgotI?t=15
In combat a man should do everything ethically possible to survive and win. RoE can run a close second. I hate to imagine how wrecked RoE could become fully woke.
My Gunny told me when to shoot and who to kill, My First Sargent was there to take care of me if I didn't or did it without permission.
I had the pleasure of appointing a Gunny Sergeant from the CTT ELINT course to be LCPO for EW"A" School when the EWCS left without a relief. He was the senior E-7 I had. It was a Kierkegaardian "Fear & Trembling and The Sickness Unto Death" moment for the staff, though only temporarily. They got over it. What a great guy Gunny Davis was.
"Are your Sailors as trained on their weapons as they need to be? Damage control? Combat readiness? Balls? " Questions for our own Navy today.
So I have a WW2 period Naval gunnery question. Is the concept of "Battlesight' used?
In the Army Tank business we carried our guns ranged at 800 meters for quick draw situations. If a close range enemy appeared (0-1200 meters) you just pointed the gun at the bottom of the enemy turret and the ballistic arc was such at 1575 m/s that you'd hit the tank somewhere.
I ask because of this:
" at a range of about 800 metres. Due to the difficult weather conditions, the guns' optical sights were ineffective: the first salvo fell short of the target and the next ones overshot it."
how did they miss with 12 rounds at 800 meters?
Old ships...maybe the guns were not gyro stabilized. Poor collimation? Shot out barrels? They should have "Fitzed" the barrels and fired grape or cannister.
they were in the middle of Narvik harbor, up a fiord in a fog/snow condition. I doubt there were force 6 waves.
My point is that I think they tried optical ranging in a fog instead of dropping the guns and shooting over open sights. 12 misses, most overs
So...crappy training? Probably.
btw: In the Army we try to hit the target, but prefer unders to overs.
1. they may ricochet for a hit
2. they may directly impact the lower part of the target, concealed but not covered by foliage
3. Psychological impact on enemy
4. easier to walk the next round onto target
IMO, you're either trained up and ready or you are not. There is no in-between simply because you can't build up mindset overnight. The Kriegsmarine knew they were at war. We do not as either a nation or culture inculcate that attitude as well as older countries with longer martial traditions. Neither did Norway.
Great read. But one of the best books I have read on Nazi Germany was about banker Hjalmar Schacht. I strongly recommend it.
Hitler's Banker: Hjalmar Horace Greeley Schacht by John Weitz
Great read BTW
PS: Think you will find Richard Evans "The Third Reich in Power" worth the time also.
Torrance: Thanks for the recommendation. I just added the book to my Amazon cart.
This sentence was interesting: "In the meantime, a second German destroyer crossed behind Eidsvold and took up a position 700 metres from the vessel, ready to fire her torpedoes."
It seems the delay to talk also significantly altered the tactical situation, from "we can put up a good fight" to "we're dead as soon as we fire."
Tuco comes to mind. If you need to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
This makes me think about our boats that surrendered to the Iranians a while back...
The Norwegian crew and leadership chose to fire in what they knew was a bad situation at best. Our crew chose to surrender even though initially they had superior firepower. Im afraid we don't have enough emphasis on being a warrior these days...
On the other hand, firing on Iranian ships in Iranian waters is probably a worse course of action. An emphasis on following orders and navigation would have been more useful.
The Germans were a flotilla of warships in sovereign Norwegian waters. It should be this simple: fight or run. They weren't on a diplomatic mission nor were they blown off course. You get 1 shot across the bow, the next one is literally on you.
Methinks the mindset transition from peace to war is a difficult one to make for the majority of people. Even when it's staring you right in the face and poking you in the chest.
Completely agree, Jet. Nobody really wants to be held responsible for starting a war but some decisions are made for you. Are you a navy or a cruise line? Are you a diplomat or a naval officer? Are you authorized to negotiate anything on your nation's behalf or are you empowered to resist armed incursions? It really is that simple. If you choose to fight, claim that first strike. A warrior's disciplined ethic is sorely lacking now among junior officers. Everywhere.
No problem, just keep giving me something different to read. I appreciate that.
Not sure if it was mentioned, but the movie, "Narvik," on Netflix, is well done. Released in 2022, the Norweigen film is about this particular period in WWII history.
My Gunny was part demon and part father figure, according to the problem his young Marines brought to his attention LOL.
I have read Commander Salamander's posts for many years but never made a comment. I have 8+ years enlisted and about 20 years as a Medical Service Corps (Ph.D. scientist) Officer. The Pandemic Preparedness Treaty is being pushed by the UN/WHO as the ONLY way to deal with Interenational public health threats. Nations would not have any rights to deal with the situation on their own and any dissent would be totally censored. Total lockdowns and digital IDs could be call for. What constitutes a "public health emergency" is not defined. Anything the WHO wants to call an emergency will becomes one. Representative Chris Smith (R, New Jersey) has an hour long press conference on his website where numerous people detail the extent to which the WHO would suspend our laws and Constitutional rights. Everyone who reads the posts here must watch the press conference. Commander Salamander SHOULD do an entire post about it. The Chinese Communist navy is a threat. Inviting the Chinese Communist dominated WHO in to run your country is sucide.
If they had planned better, a trawler would have been stationed more seaward to make the initial detection and inquires. This is an example of the same mistake made by HMAS Sydney when it was sunk by the merchant cruiser Kormoran, getting well inside effective torpedo range before making a determination of hostility. https://chuckhillscgblog.net/2012/06/23/approaching-a-merchant-ship-may-be-hazardous-sydney-vs-kormoran/
Iran has attacked Israel with drones and also apparently with cruise missiles. Thank you, Jake Sullivan. You gave us the Russia collusion hoax in 2016 when you worked for the Hillary Cliinton campaign, and now in 2024 you give us a war between Iran and Israel.