We ought to have more colorful aircraft again! At least for the less stealthy ones.
That deep? I’d love to recover but I’m afraid the seawater has preserved them the least worst, and they’re out of reach of salvage pirates.
Down there, at over 9,000 feet? It’s well outside of typical submarine operating depths by almost an order of magnitude. 272 atmospheres of pressure. The only way to work at that pressure is through ROVs, and I’m concerned about things breaking as they come up. Let them lie where they rest.
My first reaction was that the pilots and their aircraft deserve recovery, but then the saner portion of my mind kicked in and I agree with your concerns. A counter-proposal - Use an ROV with ultra-high definition cameras and lights to create a historical record of the battle. That would make a great theater offering at the Udvar-Hazy Center.
Why not both? I thought of Udvar-Hazy because the Smithsonian can get more money for that sort of operation, and because of the greater possible viewership.
Yeah, I immediately thought both as well. Didn't see the edit function. Heck, there are a lot of IMAX theaters around the country that would probably draw viewers. Not many WW2 vets left, sadly. All it takes is money.... James Cameron, are you listening?
After the fuel/air explosions that doomed the ship, there was an orderly abandon ship before a U.S. destroyer sank her with torpedoes. Her 216 dead crewmen are probably with her now.
It was the USS Phelps. Dad had transferred to her from the California after Dec 7th. I met Adm Zumwalt at Phelps reunions in the 70s and 80s. One thing I remember is those men talked about sinking the Lex, and shed tears about it 40+ years later...
My first "big boy book" was "The Big E" by Ed Stafford. Apparently, what happened to the Lexington affected men throughout the fleet, see pages 79-80:
"Late at night came word of the loss of Lexington, destroyed by internal explosions many hours after the enemy aircraft had returned to their ships. The Big E's men were stunned into silence at the loss of the Lex. They remembered her solid bulk, her blocklike island, and it seemed impossible that bombs and torpedoes could wreck her. They lost a little of the feeling of immortality that young men (and young carriers) take into action. If the Lex, which had seemed so invulnerable, could be sunk, so could their own Enterprise. Many of them faced the thought for the first time and their palms went moist."
The Officers and Sailors of the 1941-43 period were the professional Sailors mostly volunteers from the 20’s and 30’s. They kept the faith and kept the fighting spirit alive.
A small swarm of ROVs placing lifting bags... The basic technology exists even if the specific tools would need to be built. Just takes money (probably less than $100 million, let me check the couch cushions...) and willpower. Knowing that they'll be safe from vandals, though... that's priceless.
Some fellow went through enormous effort to raise an FM-2 Wildcat from [obviously fresh water] Lake Michigan, it having run afoul of one of the side wheelers used for carrier qualifications at the time.
He was met at the shoreline by a USN representative, who thanked him for returning the USN airplane to USN custody, USN never relinquishing title to anything.
Yup. There was one success that I know of, though. There's an early model Helldiver being restored by Westpac Aviation in Colorado Springs. It was recovered by a coupla young guys in the 80's from Lake Washington where it had been dumped with several other aircraft.
Long story short Nav sent legions of lawyers at SecNav Lehman's direction to seize it but the judge ruled for our heroes. His summation was something like "Lemme get this straight; you set this airplane on fire - several times - and then dumped her in the lake. What exactly were your long term plans for this aircraft?"
All of which was true; the SB2C had been damaged landing and was taken off charge, used as a firefighting trainer and then dumped. The restoration is nearing completion and she may fly again before the year's out.
There's no way to control lifting bags. The only way to do it is with cables and a frame. Let the frame take the stress to keep it away from the aircraft.
I'm not sure you can inflate a lifting bag at 9000 ft. OK, only 275 bar, so in theory you could do it without insane tanks. But the gas you put in is going to expand 275x. It's going to blast out of the water like an Orca on the hunt, but it's going to be lot messier landing.
Great FBF story! Lex certainly worthy of a salute. And here's hoping (the best of current war plans) that a CVN won't be similarly found and photo'd in the next 3-5 years.
Would love to see them recovered. Regrettably, I would be angry to see USN resources allocated to such an effort when we have so many shortfalls. I'd bet Admiral Gayler would prefer new SM's over his airplane being recovered.
The Douglas Devastator is historically significant for sure. We don’t have a surviving example in any of our museums. Spruance ordered the survivors to be tossed over the side on the way back to Pearl after Midway. Their performance was so poor he didn’t conduct a strike with them after the first day of the battle. There were a couple of survivors in the fleet that became trainers but the number was less than a dozen and no one, not even the Naval Aviation Museum in P’cola knows what happened to them.
Um...would like to see your sources about dumping the TBD's. They were never used in combat after Midway, but there's no logical reason to just dump serviceable aircraft. RADM Spruance was nothing if not logical.
Yes, they were obsolete by Midway, but their losses were as much from an uncoordinated strike as slow aircraft. The brand-new TBF's didn't fare any better being the first aircraft into the battle over Kido Butai.
Yorktown's Air Group launched a coordinated strike and IIRC they had more survivors among their VT, albeit very few.
I don’t have the exact cite you requested. I can find it after I do some digging in my research notes. The info would have been in staff log books kept at the naval aviation museum. I taught naval aviation history for a while at the Museum and this was part of my curriculum. Only 6 TBD survived the battle. 4 from Enterprise and 2 from Yorktown. One battle damaged TBD was jettisoned on the first day. Spruance issued an immediate order to cease operations of the TBD. The surviving Yorktown air group was split between Hornet and Enterprise for the night operations and next day attacks. After the battle, the carriers were loaded with all that could land aboard for the transit back to Pearl. The TBD’s were heavily damaged and no longer air worthy. Spruance ordered them jettisoned as I understand it. The remaining TBD squadrons (less than a 20) were used as a training squadron on the east coast. Unfit for even carrier qualifications they were decommissioned and scrapped. Zero survive in any museum or private hands.
Regarding the TBF, Waldron’s advanced detachment was transitioning to the TBF. They had was finished with transitioning training and actually launched from Midway to participate in the battle. The Japanese never saw the TBF and its most unique contribution was the massive amount of damage they could take. And did. This tied up Japanese fighters trying to get a kill and frustrated all of them with the inability to kill easily. This contributed to the overwork of the Japanese fighters.
VT3 only recovered 2 TBD’s.
Only 14 airmen survived Midway that flew in TBD. See Chief Pilot Bill Esders for more info.
I could certainly understand jettisoning battle damaged aircraft - as those TBD's that did make it back were, especially if they were no longer flight-worthy. Your comment gave me the impression that Spruance discarded them out of pique.
I'm pretty familiar with the VT-8 TBF Det and their story. When Bert Earnest flew 8-T-1 back to Midway anyone who saw it was amazed that she still flew. IIRC the battle damage report went to 8 pages. Unfortunately 8-T-1 was scrapped during the war
IIRC Bert was awarded two; the first one like all of the pilots got and a second one for what ADM Nimitz referred to as an "Epic in Naval Aviation" - getting 8-T-1 back to Midway.
Not taking anything away from Gay. He was luckily he wasn’t captured or he would have had weights tied to his ankles and tossed overboard. Bill Esders didn’t make it back to Midway. He had to ditch. He rescued his gunner who died in his arms.
The surviving TBDs were put to use as stateside trainers - Grandpa Scoobs saw a few hanging around Corpus in 1943. Eventually they were stricken and scrapped.
I do believe a few TBD's did make it over to NAS Glenview for use aboard the Sable and Wolverine.
As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, many now historically significant aircraft were used for CARQUALS aboard the 2 training carriers (Sable and Wolverine) on Lake Michigan. And there are still numerous aircraft still on the bottom of the lake, as they were considered used up and disposable at the time. While in fresh water, the invasive zebra mussels are taking their toll.
All military ocean wrecks (airplanes and ships) are considered grave sites and, and recovery is not permitted. Went through a debate with a museum owner who had discovered and wished to recover and restore a WWII airplane. DoD General Counsel said, "No!!"
DoD's GC is hardly infallible. IF there's a body in the aircraft that's true, otherwise, dunno how you'd make that case.
There's an SBD-4 in the National Museum of WWII Aviation that was recovered from Lake Michigan. Went in from engine failure on takeoff and the pilot was recovered; so she was hardly a "War Grave"
The SBD at the P'Cola museum was recovered under similar circumstances, she was actually flown in the Midway battle. Unlike the P'Cola Dauntless, the one in Colorado is airworthy.
That is buno 2106. It was the only survivor of both Pearl Harbor (aboard at Ford Island during the attack) and flown by a marine aircrew at Midway. 210 + bullet holes. Lost off the USS Wolverine.
I saw a picture of the USS Hornet (CV-8) sitting on the seabed. At one of the openings on the side at the hanger deck where the elevator be there was a yellow plane tug tractor. Just sitting there as if waiting for some to come start it up again. When she went down, Hornet capsized to starboard and sank stern first. The tractor wasn't thrown out with all that happened.
I would think that even when abandoning ship he would make sure things followed the book. Just the sailors lining up their shoes on the Lady Lex before going over the side.
Also saved was "Wags", Captain Shermans cocker spaniel. Wags, with Sherman's assistance , wrote a first person saga of the ordeal after the war, Admiral Wags.
The artwork provided left out the blue vertical stripe on the forward edge of the rudder. I loved the color schemes the interwar Navy planes used, shown to good effect in Errol Flynn's '41 picture "Dive Bomber."
I would love to see some of those aircraft recovered, restored and displayed. Especially the Butch O'Hare flown Wildcat.
I would also love to see any remnants of an SC-1 Seahawk (none survive otherwise) recovered from USS Indianapolis wreck site. Yes, I know she's a grave site too... my cousin, the man whose name I bear today, being one of those. The way I see this is that reverently / respectfully recovering and displaying select historical artifacts perpetuates the memory of these events better than leaving them to decay on the ocean floor, unseen and eventually forgotten.
Given the egregiously pathetic nature of what qualifies as history class in schools these days, I suspect a very, very, very small percent of travelers at ORD are aware of the relevance of the Wildcat on display there.
I have an uncle, my father's sister's husband, now 98 and WW2 USN veteran, who some years ago revisited Pensacola and found the remnants of the concrete seaplane ramp where the PBYs he flew in crawled out of the Gulf.
We ought to have more colorful aircraft again! At least for the less stealthy ones.
That deep? I’d love to recover but I’m afraid the seawater has preserved them the least worst, and they’re out of reach of salvage pirates.
Down there, at over 9,000 feet? It’s well outside of typical submarine operating depths by almost an order of magnitude. 272 atmospheres of pressure. The only way to work at that pressure is through ROVs, and I’m concerned about things breaking as they come up. Let them lie where they rest.
My first reaction was that the pilots and their aircraft deserve recovery, but then the saner portion of my mind kicked in and I agree with your concerns. A counter-proposal - Use an ROV with ultra-high definition cameras and lights to create a historical record of the battle. That would make a great theater offering at the Udvar-Hazy Center.
Or Pensacola.
Why not both? I thought of Udvar-Hazy because the Smithsonian can get more money for that sort of operation, and because of the greater possible viewership.
Yeah, I immediately thought both as well. Didn't see the edit function. Heck, there are a lot of IMAX theaters around the country that would probably draw viewers. Not many WW2 vets left, sadly. All it takes is money.... James Cameron, are you listening?
There's multiple manned submersibles, Alvin among them, capable of operating at that depth and deeper.
When CV-5 Yorktown was found in 18,000' of water, its douglas fir flight deck was still completely intact.
Where is Clive Cussler and Dirk Pitt when we really need them?
Clive passed. Also wouldn't surprise me if the recovery effort turned out like thrleir attempt to find the C.S.S. Alabama.
Wish we could/would. Isn't Lex a war grave?
After the fuel/air explosions that doomed the ship, there was an orderly abandon ship before a U.S. destroyer sank her with torpedoes. Her 216 dead crewmen are probably with her now.
It was the USS Phelps. Dad had transferred to her from the California after Dec 7th. I met Adm Zumwalt at Phelps reunions in the 70s and 80s. One thing I remember is those men talked about sinking the Lex, and shed tears about it 40+ years later...
My first "big boy book" was "The Big E" by Ed Stafford. Apparently, what happened to the Lexington affected men throughout the fleet, see pages 79-80:
"Late at night came word of the loss of Lexington, destroyed by internal explosions many hours after the enemy aircraft had returned to their ships. The Big E's men were stunned into silence at the loss of the Lex. They remembered her solid bulk, her blocklike island, and it seemed impossible that bombs and torpedoes could wreck her. They lost a little of the feeling of immortality that young men (and young carriers) take into action. If the Lex, which had seemed so invulnerable, could be sunk, so could their own Enterprise. Many of them faced the thought for the first time and their palms went moist."
The Officers and Sailors of the 1941-43 period were the professional Sailors mostly volunteers from the 20’s and 30’s. They kept the faith and kept the fighting spirit alive.
They actually held a ceremony and drank toasts.
The planes are not. They came off the flight deck as the ship sunk.
I think one of the planes photographed was Butch O'Hare's.
A small swarm of ROVs placing lifting bags... The basic technology exists even if the specific tools would need to be built. Just takes money (probably less than $100 million, let me check the couch cushions...) and willpower. Knowing that they'll be safe from vandals, though... that's priceless.
Some fellow went through enormous effort to raise an FM-2 Wildcat from [obviously fresh water] Lake Michigan, it having run afoul of one of the side wheelers used for carrier qualifications at the time.
He was met at the shoreline by a USN representative, who thanked him for returning the USN airplane to USN custody, USN never relinquishing title to anything.
Eventually, something was worked out.
That would be Chuck Greenhill. He passed away a couple years ago. A perfect example of a humble man of modest means making a difference in America. BZ
https://www.hamsherlakeside.com/obituary/CharlesChuck-Greenhill
Yup. There was one success that I know of, though. There's an early model Helldiver being restored by Westpac Aviation in Colorado Springs. It was recovered by a coupla young guys in the 80's from Lake Washington where it had been dumped with several other aircraft.
Long story short Nav sent legions of lawyers at SecNav Lehman's direction to seize it but the judge ruled for our heroes. His summation was something like "Lemme get this straight; you set this airplane on fire - several times - and then dumped her in the lake. What exactly were your long term plans for this aircraft?"
All of which was true; the SB2C had been damaged landing and was taken off charge, used as a firefighting trainer and then dumped. The restoration is nearing completion and she may fly again before the year's out.
There's no way to control lifting bags. The only way to do it is with cables and a frame. Let the frame take the stress to keep it away from the aircraft.
Cheaper to just bring up a dataplate. :-)
I'm not sure you can inflate a lifting bag at 9000 ft. OK, only 275 bar, so in theory you could do it without insane tanks. But the gas you put in is going to expand 275x. It's going to blast out of the water like an Orca on the hunt, but it's going to be lot messier landing.
Glomar Explorer of course lifted an entire Soviet SSN with a claw, which obviously would not work with something as delicate as an aluminum airframe.
IIRC, the entire operation was filmed, specifically including the removal of the bodies from the wreck, where were reburied at sea with full honors.
The Russians of course were given copies of the film.
BZ 🫡
It’s important to have these items from our past. I think it helps us ponder our future…
Great FBF story! Lex certainly worthy of a salute. And here's hoping (the best of current war plans) that a CVN won't be similarly found and photo'd in the next 3-5 years.
Would love to see them recovered. Regrettably, I would be angry to see USN resources allocated to such an effort when we have so many shortfalls. I'd bet Admiral Gayler would prefer new SM's over his airplane being recovered.
There are private investors ready to pony up the $$$ to make it happen.
Then I would support recovery.
The Douglas Devastator is historically significant for sure. We don’t have a surviving example in any of our museums. Spruance ordered the survivors to be tossed over the side on the way back to Pearl after Midway. Their performance was so poor he didn’t conduct a strike with them after the first day of the battle. There were a couple of survivors in the fleet that became trainers but the number was less than a dozen and no one, not even the Naval Aviation Museum in P’cola knows what happened to them.
Um...would like to see your sources about dumping the TBD's. They were never used in combat after Midway, but there's no logical reason to just dump serviceable aircraft. RADM Spruance was nothing if not logical.
Yes, they were obsolete by Midway, but their losses were as much from an uncoordinated strike as slow aircraft. The brand-new TBF's didn't fare any better being the first aircraft into the battle over Kido Butai.
Yorktown's Air Group launched a coordinated strike and IIRC they had more survivors among their VT, albeit very few.
I don’t have the exact cite you requested. I can find it after I do some digging in my research notes. The info would have been in staff log books kept at the naval aviation museum. I taught naval aviation history for a while at the Museum and this was part of my curriculum. Only 6 TBD survived the battle. 4 from Enterprise and 2 from Yorktown. One battle damaged TBD was jettisoned on the first day. Spruance issued an immediate order to cease operations of the TBD. The surviving Yorktown air group was split between Hornet and Enterprise for the night operations and next day attacks. After the battle, the carriers were loaded with all that could land aboard for the transit back to Pearl. The TBD’s were heavily damaged and no longer air worthy. Spruance ordered them jettisoned as I understand it. The remaining TBD squadrons (less than a 20) were used as a training squadron on the east coast. Unfit for even carrier qualifications they were decommissioned and scrapped. Zero survive in any museum or private hands.
Regarding the TBF, Waldron’s advanced detachment was transitioning to the TBF. They had was finished with transitioning training and actually launched from Midway to participate in the battle. The Japanese never saw the TBF and its most unique contribution was the massive amount of damage they could take. And did. This tied up Japanese fighters trying to get a kill and frustrated all of them with the inability to kill easily. This contributed to the overwork of the Japanese fighters.
VT3 only recovered 2 TBD’s.
Only 14 airmen survived Midway that flew in TBD. See Chief Pilot Bill Esders for more info.
I’ll post when I find my notes.
I could certainly understand jettisoning battle damaged aircraft - as those TBD's that did make it back were, especially if they were no longer flight-worthy. Your comment gave me the impression that Spruance discarded them out of pique.
I'm pretty familiar with the VT-8 TBF Det and their story. When Bert Earnest flew 8-T-1 back to Midway anyone who saw it was amazed that she still flew. IIRC the battle damage report went to 8 pages. Unfortunately 8-T-1 was scrapped during the war
He didn’t jettison out of malice. He understood the assignment was paramount to suicide. And the Navy needed aircrews…
Earnest was one of the first Navy Cross winners if I recall correctly.
Of midway.
IIRC Bert was awarded two; the first one like all of the pilots got and a second one for what ADM Nimitz referred to as an "Epic in Naval Aviation" - getting 8-T-1 back to Midway.
Don't forget George Gay.
What a front row seat.
He got to see everything the Dauntlesses did to Akagi, Kara and Soryu and live to tell the tale.
Not taking anything away from Gay. He was luckily he wasn’t captured or he would have had weights tied to his ankles and tossed overboard. Bill Esders didn’t make it back to Midway. He had to ditch. He rescued his gunner who died in his arms.
Spruance wouldn’t let the airwing use them after he was debriefed by the overwhelming loss of personnel and aircraft.
The surviving TBDs were put to use as stateside trainers - Grandpa Scoobs saw a few hanging around Corpus in 1943. Eventually they were stricken and scrapped.
I do believe a few TBD's did make it over to NAS Glenview for use aboard the Sable and Wolverine.
As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, many now historically significant aircraft were used for CARQUALS aboard the 2 training carriers (Sable and Wolverine) on Lake Michigan. And there are still numerous aircraft still on the bottom of the lake, as they were considered used up and disposable at the time. While in fresh water, the invasive zebra mussels are taking their toll.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e-6T1--USo
Also, here is some good extended footage of those ops...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyHzD2l2ZdY&t=379s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8ra80pWO70&t=243s
All military ocean wrecks (airplanes and ships) are considered grave sites and, and recovery is not permitted. Went through a debate with a museum owner who had discovered and wished to recover and restore a WWII airplane. DoD General Counsel said, "No!!"
DoD's GC is hardly infallible. IF there's a body in the aircraft that's true, otherwise, dunno how you'd make that case.
There's an SBD-4 in the National Museum of WWII Aviation that was recovered from Lake Michigan. Went in from engine failure on takeoff and the pilot was recovered; so she was hardly a "War Grave"
The SBD at the P'Cola museum was recovered under similar circumstances, she was actually flown in the Midway battle. Unlike the P'Cola Dauntless, the one in Colorado is airworthy.
That is buno 2106. It was the only survivor of both Pearl Harbor (aboard at Ford Island during the attack) and flown by a marine aircrew at Midway. 210 + bullet holes. Lost off the USS Wolverine.
That is not true. We recover aircraft all the time.
I've had a soft spot for the Lexington since I read "Queen of the Flattops" so very many moons ago.
I saw a picture of the USS Hornet (CV-8) sitting on the seabed. At one of the openings on the side at the hanger deck where the elevator be there was a yellow plane tug tractor. Just sitting there as if waiting for some to come start it up again. When she went down, Hornet capsized to starboard and sank stern first. The tractor wasn't thrown out with all that happened.
It is because the Aviation Boatswain's Mates properly secured her.
I would think that even when abandoning ship he would make sure things followed the book. Just the sailors lining up their shoes on the Lady Lex before going over the side.
Of note, when the Yorktown stood into Pearl to be repaired after Coral Sea, her crew was manning the rail in undress whites...
https://youtu.be/rT33iOGpv9s?si=T7q93ZapmIpsMDAD
You can still read the INTERNATIONAL , on the side of the hood, in at least one photo.
Also saved was "Wags", Captain Shermans cocker spaniel. Wags, with Sherman's assistance , wrote a first person saga of the ordeal after the war, Admiral Wags.
Wags is likely a better example of a flag leader than todays imbeciles.
The artwork provided left out the blue vertical stripe on the forward edge of the rudder. I loved the color schemes the interwar Navy planes used, shown to good effect in Errol Flynn's '41 picture "Dive Bomber."
Look at the real aircraft, specifically the 6:07 point in the video. There is no blue stripe.
I would love to see some of those aircraft recovered, restored and displayed. Especially the Butch O'Hare flown Wildcat.
I would also love to see any remnants of an SC-1 Seahawk (none survive otherwise) recovered from USS Indianapolis wreck site. Yes, I know she's a grave site too... my cousin, the man whose name I bear today, being one of those. The way I see this is that reverently / respectfully recovering and displaying select historical artifacts perpetuates the memory of these events better than leaving them to decay on the ocean floor, unseen and eventually forgotten.
Given the egregiously pathetic nature of what qualifies as history class in schools these days, I suspect a very, very, very small percent of travelers at ORD are aware of the relevance of the Wildcat on display there.
Agreed, but a considerably higher percentage who would some to see such recovered aircraft at Pensacola would appreciate them.
I have an uncle, my father's sister's husband, now 98 and WW2 USN veteran, who some years ago revisited Pensacola and found the remnants of the concrete seaplane ramp where the PBYs he flew in crawled out of the Gulf.
Ray Goldsworthy, the father of one of my high school classmates was one of the survivors of the Lexington sinking.