Great write up and correction of the record. Why hasn’t the Naval Institute Press found you? Full bore Friday columns as a book would be at least as popular as The Hunt for Red October.
Joined at 17. First ship DE-1027. First LPO RD1 Melvin W______. I learned the power of language, got a big dose of inclusiveness every morning at quarters when my LPO said, just before reading the POD, "Listen up, you f_ckers". When I retired 26 years later I mustered out with 0% VA disabilities claimed. Dumb, yeah, but a point of honor. Could have claimed significant hearing loss from wearing headsets and omnipresent ships noises, a gunshot wound, broken ankle, PTSD levels of sleep deprivation and a debilitating case of pottymouth. Most people I know got 10% just by asking. Way-back-when, pottymouth wasn't considered an occupational hazard, it "just was". Nekulturny? Sure. Times changed. Sensitivities changed into full-blown ass-rashes. Accommodations were made by we troglodytes, but some of that pottymouth had taken root in our DNA. It was only on my last ship that I realized my time had passed. Some of the impressionable JO's picked up my manner of speech and it embarrassed me...didn't make the XO happy either. Now, some 35 years later, I have developed a subconscious semi-auto STFU switch in my hind brain that suppresses my pottymouth fairly well. The side effect of a slight stuttering hesitancy when speaking to people I don't know well kind of mimics Parkinson's or senility sometimes, but it's the price one pays to be a gentleman. Doesn't work worth a damn in traffic.
A friend of mine, ex-military and ex-other organization, has a very bad case of potty mouth. What is amazing, though, is how it clears right up depending on context; if there was a lady at the table, for example. "When in Rome", and all that.
The linked article is whining about people the author thinks are beneath her. The demands to think and speak in a certain fashion demonstrate a kind of social status consciousness that is inappropriate for an American Officer. Is it right to demand changes in how others think?
Like it or not, the Navy is going to remain disproportionately men for the foreseeable future, and given the nature of the men and women we recruit, it's going to be a lot coarser language than expected. Many of the assumptions about language made in that article are not widely held in the Navy or in American society.
My first real exposure to women in the Navy was on staff duty in 1981 as an E-8/W-2. Lots of WAVES, mostly YN's. They were personal secretaries to post-CO tour O-5 and O-6 "Action Officers" and many on a first name basis with their bosses(which made my boss cringe). I will describe our YN as she was...YN3 Go_zales, 5'3", attractive (if she'd ever smiled), quasi-militant Hispanic, spoke very good English, no accent, was a self-described Christian woman, ~21 years old, about a 3.6 performance-wise. Our office had a post CO tour NFO EWO O-6, an elderly ex-Enlisted retired O-5 NFO EWO and me, an EWCS(SW) with 16 years in on his first shore duty tour. Oh, Lord, the number of times she reported me for an inadvertent F-bomb...and I was really trying to watch my language. But when 2 or more Fleeties get together _hit happens. Fast forward to her stealing another WAVE's pants in the women's changing room "because someone stole mine". Of course, she opted for NJP rather than a court-martial. My boss sent me to "represent" at mast. The Officer conducting NJP was a white-haired 50-something LDO CDR, one of his collateral duties was "CO of Enlisted Personnel". It was a very big staff. He adjudicated her guilty and asked me to give my say before awarding punishment. "She's a fucking thief, Commander", was all I had to say. He didn't bat an eye, gave her suspended bust/$100/2 weeks extra duty/2 weeks restriction to barracks. Shortly after, I promoted to W-2. I was still trying to mind my language but never got another complaint from the YN3 or anyone else. Neither did the SEAL CDR down the hall, at least not to his face.
I liked how she made it a point to constantly correct her instructors... So she went to school with an agenda. Officer or not, in a classroom, the instructor's boss. Her agendas showing. Right or wrong, if thered of been a "MA'AM, youre here to learn reactor theory and operation, not correct my terminology, so please do STFU", Id of been happy to hear about it. Throwing in some curse words wouldnt have hurt my feelings either. The military is about blowing up stuff and killing people, and doing all the other jobs that make that possible. All this nonsense wastes time and effort...ugh Im so fired up right now LOL...
I struggled mightly but forced myself to read the whole thing. I remember when Proceedings was a serious publication, covering serious naval issues. The fact that theres a DEI essay contest and theyre printed in Proceedings shows its just one more failed American institution. RIP...
OK, that's just fucking hilarious. I have to laugh at it, because otherwise I would weep bitter tears. Well as a nation we had a great run. I see the next dark age on the horizon.
Where is that upbeat Bubblehead optimism, Mr. Lehman? Think about that Dark Age they are foisting on us. Then imagine the TPTB breathing the air of downtown Peking, drinking from the waters of the Ganges and standing in the chow line for a half ration of Soylent Green just like the rest of us. Sharpen your shiv. Write a book about it. Smile when your royalty check comes in.
Well, it is Vanity-Fair, possibly the most vapid east coast centric left wing rag still existent, and the author who according to his Bio holds a PhD in Arms Control, Disarmament and International Security from the University of Illinois.
He also claims to be the real life version of "the Recruit".
Lets look at some of the other quotes:
-They wanted to humanize the otherwise inhuman—some would say inhumane—reality of nuclear deterrence.
-were built, as even the juniormost sailor will tell you (without a hint of irony), to “preserve the peace”
-waiting to respond if ever an enemy—for whatever reason, including a fit of pique or miscalculation—initiates a first strike.
-American shipyards simply cannot keep pace. (speaking of the PRC shipyards, and the only worthwhile takeaway of the whole article, although he seems to be advocating for surrender in the face of that, rather than fixing it.
- Some were toting automatic weapons, a precaution when a boomer is on the surface. (Bullshit. semi auto.)
-'When the devices on this class of sub were devised in the ’70s and ’80s, they were quite modern. Some have been upgraded; others remain unchanged (one uses a crank!)' (oh, my, how archaic a crank!)
-the obligatory nod to DIE: Chairman of the Joint Chiefs General Charles Brown Jr., is part of a trio of Black leadership atop America’s national-security pyramid.
-The job of diving and steering, for example, is not in the captain’s remit. He has put that chore in the hands of the juniormost people (albeit with a senior officer seated behind them) (welcome to the US Navy, moron)
-They are completely removed from meaningful connectivity, including social media. (Oh goodness, how ever can they survive?!)
Oh and he hosed up the liturgy massively, whether on direction, or through incompetince.
Back in the mid 1970s when I was a Sprucan navigator, we had a very primitive satellite nav system that could give us a fix every few hours. USNI published a short article about the system, in response to which I wrote two short paragraphs commenting that even though we had that system, I would be keeping up our skills with a sextant. Immediately afterwards, the satellite system’s PM wrote a multi-page response. That would have been a very good opportunity to take notes on the DoD acquisition empire that would have served me well later in my career.
I became a lifetime member simply thru paying for enough years. Not so sure I would be paying for it now.
CDR Sal, great stuff. The inability to provide gun support for land operations is a capability gap that was embraced willingly by the USN as you point out.
Worked on the DDX proposal for NG in Pascagoula (aviation spaces). Since I had a sense of humor, they sat me between the naval architects (zero humor) and the weapons guys (notorious practical jokers). I learned about tumblehome hulls, the perimeter VLS system (which the USN hated but was actually much safer than traditional VLS), the CIGS (Bofors at that time) and the 155 (which was similar if not identical to the US Army Crusader gun system). The USMC was an ardent, indeed fanatical supporter of the DDX gun if not the platform per se, for obvious reasons...without the DDX there was basically little or no gun support for amphibious / littoral operations in the USN.
The whole enterprise failed for a lot of reasons. We won the proposal, and I left for another job. As far as I know, the gun never went past the creation of a barrel, might be wrong there. The Crusader failed for the US Army because there were only like eight bridges in Europe that it could traverse. The DDX hull was capable of supporting it. If working as advertised, the ability to auto load, change propellent charges and angle of launch could put an amazing number of rounds in a time on target barrage from one ship. The autoloader as depicted was intimidating, I had visions of being thrust into the breech if too close during operation.
As they say, good times, good times. Not sure if the current Zumwalt has extra missiles, a rail gun, or an empty hole where the 155s were supposed to be. There would be a lot of space to put other stuff, it wasn't small or light!
Sorry, the anecdote about Crusader and European bridges is just wrong. Crusader weighed in at 43 tons. In an Army that deployed a 65 ton M1A1. It did die because of its weight, but that was a strategic factor (moving it by air) not a tactical one. The Army was building out Striker units. and wanted to be leaner...
As further evidence, the Germans and Brits deployed the 155mm Panzerhaubitze 2000, which weighs 53 tons. Did they have secret German bridges?
AGS was fully developed. It actually worked great.
It failed because the Navy wouldn't commit to buying enough of the projectiles (since they capped the line at 3 hulls and were thinking about fighting Goat Rapists instead of China) and as a result, the cost per-projectile ballooned to something like $900,000 per round
And it was impossible to replace them with 155mm ammo that costs under $3000 including the fuze, projectile, fill and propellant because that isn't revolutionary netcentric information grid fundamentally changing warfare.
Gorgeous warship. As for: "Everyone wants to be part of something cosmic," I couldn't agree more. A cosmic fitrep where you save the ship and rediscovered that water's wet is for some the only road to success.
Memory is fuzzy but I recall some of the messages and pubs we used in HUK Ops in the North Atlantic in 1967 with a CVS and our own prototype TASS system involved "NATO Cosmic" security classifications. Thought at the time that "Cosmic" alluded to the Buck Rogers nature of our work. ASW back then looked like voodoo to my RD3 self when I was North Plot on the NC2 tracer.
Served aboard CLG-5 March 1970 - December 1971 as an RD1. Fond memories. The decks were teak, far better for a Pollywog to crawl on than steel & non-skid. But such a lo-o-ong crawl. And the RD3's and RDSN's I had oppressed made me do it twice. I remember the humiliation of being declined a temporary berth in a bawdy house at our next port call in Klang because of my shaved legs and black & blue buttocks...them not believing my tale of becoming a Shellback.
Exactly so, Bear. The Okie City also served in the Okinawa Campaign as did 2 of my uncles, a motor mac and a pharmacist's mate, who were aboard small auxiliary ships. The ship had a dummy set of Talos missiles done up nicely in a painted dragon motif. Lots of appreciative grins from the locals during port calls. 6"/47's and 5"/38's for lots of NGFS during my tour. Whoda thunk they'd let some 21 year old RD1 with a GED be NGFS supervisor and RCO on NSAR/PIRAZ station? In its day Talos was awesome. As a kid I had glued together and painted Revell models of a Terrier and Nike Hercules launcher...some 10 years later I was on a Talos ship seeing the real thing. We never launched a Talos in anger during my tour. It was enough to illuminate an NVN MiG or cargo plane with 2 MW of the AN/SPW-2 beam rider to make them go to treetops and abort whatever they had planned. I had reenlisted to get that assignment, and the $10K VRB fueled the adventure. No regrets.
Was on two ship that had Mar Dets, CLG-5 and CVA-19. On both they had the shiniest brass on the ship. On CLG-5 they all vied to be on deck patrol when we'd anchor in Danang Harbor to conduct NGFS. They were given M-14's and told to shoot at anything that looked remotely "mine-like" floating in the water near the ship, no matter how small. With no communications aside from a wink, some sailors would toss their empty Coke cans over the side. Bang, bang, bang. Semper Firing. Wasn't there to see it happen but one Marine, a noob, appeared on the fantail while we were steaming at 16 kts en route to wherever it was we were going. During downtime the fantail was a nice gathering place to catch some sun and shoot the breeze. The sailors watched the Marine tie off a swab handle in preparation to toss it over the side so it'd drag astern and clean itself into as-new condition. He had a one-handed grip on the line and was about to toss the swab when a half dozen sailors yelled, "HEY WAIT!!!". Too late, the swab went over the side, the line paid out and the Marine lost skin off his hand. Lucky he had a loose grip, just some nasty rope burn. Who'd have thought that tying off to a lifeline post was a better idea? Only a noob. Aboard that Carrier the Mar Det was great...johnny-on-the-spot when you needed them. My equipment was off the ship during an SRA so I got assigned to the ship's MAA force as a section leader as an EW1. Got a call around 2000 of gunshots in one of the Supply berthing compartments. It was the Nasty 70's...drugs and tense race relations. First thing I did was notify the MarDet and QD, in that order. The Marines arrived armed to the teeth in battle-rattle in uniforms ranging from skivvies to fatigues. All I was looking for was a little backup. Marines don't Eff around when things are serious. Turned out it was a bogus call. But it didn't stop the MAA's from doing their due diligence in searching for a weapon and spent ammo. One of guys, a DP3, became a casualty. I had him searching waste cans. Poor SOB. We learned why we call them shitcans. He was going through one and grabbed on to a turd. When I got to him, he was in tears and just shaking his head and mewling. Told him to wash up and go home to his wife and kid. The Sergeant insisted on leaving a few of his men until our search was done. Good man. The atmosphere was tense. Some aspects of the Navy suck now, but never like they did in the Nasty 70's on a CV full of attitudinals and dopers. Had 8 years in and was ready to call it quits and flip burgers. But I made Chief about 4 months later and transferred to a Frigate in Hawaii. I always had the best Guardian Angel.
LOL Fun Times! Hancock was an Old Essex class, WW2 Fighting Lady.
Korea Vietnam she went there and did her job.
We had terrible race Drug and alcohol problems at CLNC CID sweeps once a month, pee in bottles, shots fired robbery, the Marines fell apart after Vietnam ended. Roving gangs of young scholars who obeyed no one.
My Co spent more time in Office hours and court martials than he did in the field.
I said the hell with this and got out. The Gator Freighter Navy was top notch though!
There was no accusation. Looking back, I think it was because it is a Muslim country and even though they are moderate they don't comport with kinky kafir stuff. Shaved legs and a bruised bum must have set off alarms. But there was that time I went on a charter fishing boat in Subic, took a power nap on the deck in cut-off dungarees with a straw hat covering my face to recover from an overage of San Miguel. Never had a worse sunburn. The scarlet skin was febrile by nightfall and had started to bubble and blister. Couldn't go to sick bay because it was a reportable NJP offense. The pain was terrible. I lathered up with Noxema to tough it out. About a week or so later the ship was in Hong Kong and I was beginning to feel sporty again. Went ashore and got me a rental in Wanchai. I was down to my skivvies and eager when she pointed at me in horror and said, "What that?". I shot back an answer flippantly and said while pulling a big patch of peeling skin off my thigh, "Oh, this? Leprosy. But it's not contagious anymore." She fled the room. No rental refund. Dammit, I had a grin on my face...how could she not know I was joking?
"During her 130 days on the gunline on this deployment, "The Fighting Saint" fired a total of 64,055 rounds, making a total for the Vietnam conflict of more than 93,000."
Think about that total of ordnance on target and how would we replicate it today? How many Tomahawks? Get close enough for a single 5 incher? Just wait until the 57 mm shows up? We have emasculated our fleet by depending on 2 million dollar missiles, or a $15 Billion dollar CVN launching a 95 million dollar jet dropping $400K PGMs on a bunch of goat-f'ing ragheads. Which obviously is working sooooo well.
I wasn't privy to the details but we had a Marine Major come aboard in Subic in 1984 to evaluate our FFG's 76mm gun in a short-lived bout of NGFS on the coast of Luzon. I always suspected that any conclusion had been written before he came aboard. I was dying to know, but was OOD during the evolution. My own conclusion was that the fall of shot was hard to observe from where I was standing...and probably from where the spotter was crouched too.
If the girl was a GURL (like many were back it the day) you could probably pull if off handily in an appeal and get your non-punitive letter of caution rescinded.
While one can certainly argue the shortcomings of existing and future military equipment, it seems to me a failure of will is more at fault in dealing with pests like the Houthis, Iranians, and Africans. A policy where firing on American military or civilian assets brings sure, immediate, and devastating reprisal would be of much more benefit to us and our allies than even the most capable instruments of war (poorly used).
Absolutely fullbore. ST PAUL holds a special place in my heart - Grandpa Scoobs (The Blackshoe) served aboard her in 1945 as her second XO, taking her from CONUS to WESTPAC. Papa Scoobs, who later encountered her 20+ years later on the gunline off Vietnam, has an original copy of her 1945 cruise book at home. It's nice that we at least have SALEM as a surviving example of U.S. heavy cruiser technology but by all rights it should have been ST PAUL that was preserved.
It's going to get worse. I would bet AI is the buzz word in the pentagon and beltway bandit warrens. Despite all this getting smacked in the face with salty, meaty reality, billions and billions are being spent so that the robots can go fight the robots. Sure RU-UKR has hinted at an RMA underway, but there are going to be a lot of bad ideas and false prophets along the way.
I’m struck by a couple of things. First, our shipyard repair capacity was order of magnitude larger than today. For example:
“She returned to the United States for yard work at San Francisco, California, from June to September, then conducted underway training before sailing on 5 November for Korea.”
- 4 months of limited availability. Likely on time or early out of the yards.
Several replacements of her 8inch guns due to high usage. I wonder if the navy simply ran out of barrels for her due to end of life barrels and no manufacturing?
She had a powder blow in a main turret. This was decades before Iowa had a similar incident. The loss of life was comparative. Yet no gay crew man or other lie was told to explain the accident.
That ship had clean lines, was a beautiful vessel and had a fighting spirit in her traced back to a Halsey. A well led crew and good officers makes the difference.
Subic Bay was a strategic multiplier.
Warships going into harms way and going toe to toe knowing and accepting combat risk to crew and material is what our navy should be.
VADM Cooper needs a history lesson. But we digress.
Subic Bay SRF made me a bronze rotary waveguide switch for my FF's AN/ULQ-6 Deception Repeater system. It was a part on backorder for a serious CASREP. They cast and fabricated it from scratch. Not a bit of VSWR after I installed it. They wrought miracles at that facility. And damn, if my EMO didn't make me replace it when the factory made one arrived. Kept the old one as a spare. Wish I'd purloined it as a keepsake when I transferred.
Great piece as usual! Our Navy is in great decline just like the Royal Navy. Social spending and debt interest payments will doom the defense budget. The whiz kids designing the combatants don't have an appreciation of sustained combat operations like you have so well outlined here. As a career airdale we airdales suffer the same design, build, operate problems. The Ford suffered from a "bridge too far" design problem as well. The F35, too-- a program I briefly worked on after retirement from the Navy (until the contractor lost the bid). Many of these problems can be traced to incorrect assumptions made by design teams. As to current operations, the CINC's hands are tied in the Red Sea. Nothing will change until the civilian leadership changes next year unless the Houthis plant one in the mess decks and kill a bunch of sailors. The Houthis have likely sunk a large vessel in the last couple of days. Let's see what the response is. Meanwhile we are emptying our batteries of million dollar missiles shoot down cheap drones. A good shore bombardment by the St. Paul would be welcome!
Earlier this week, I deleted my comment, based on the 60 minutes video, that our USN was really scraping the bottom. I realized it was intemperate, perhaps even treasonous, to publicly disparage our military. Today's Fullbore Friday, with just a few paragraphs from recent history, made me realize our defense establishment today, by comparison, are not serious people.
Just one example: A few months ago, our Navy ran acceptance tests on a shipment of shells, requiring a certain number to be fired. After firing fewer than 10% of the test batch, the base environmental commissar said they had exceeded emissions standards for the quarter. So the test was stopped, the shells were "accepted" and shipped out to the fleet.
Does anyone in a position of responsibility understand the threats we face, and that our enemies are serious?
As long as you're talking about big fucking guns; this is from quora some years back. The initial comment is mine but the rest, after "Eric Husher" is his:
In Starship Troopers Heinlein listed as one of the branches possibly open to Rico, "Combat Ecology." I've always thought that referred not to saving the interstellar snail darter, but the relationship between weapons systems and tactics that advance some groups and depress or eliminate the use of others.
Hence, this very thoughtful peace from Quora on, though the author didn't phrase it that way, the combat ecology of the battleship:
Could a modern navy build a new class of battleships, or would such vessels be obsolete?
Eric Husher, former Senior Balkan Intelligence Analyst (1992-1996)
Answered Feb 12 · Upvoted by Olan Prentice, Veteran at United States Navy
The short answer is ‘no,’ as I will explain.
I think one of the more pernicious myths is that ‘the battleship was made obsolete by the aircraft carrier and has no function today.’ You see this in book after book, but a closer examination of the facts indicates otherwise.
It is important to understand a few things about battleships before talking about ‘obsolescence’ or aircraft carriers, and the FIRST thing to know is that battleships are the direct descendants of the ‘line of battle’ of Nelson’s time. In other words, they were NEVER intended to operate alone, or as ‘a pair,’ but as a SQUADRON of no fewer than four, and preferably more, with the squadron being considered the minimum necessary to conduct all maneuvering evolutions. Squadrons would be combined to produce fleets, and it was the squadron that was used as the minimum tactical unit for battleships. This ‘understanding’ held true until WW2, when events forced navies to use battleships otherwise, and with invariably poor results.
The next thing to know is that battleships were not just intended to deliver powerful blows (like modern warships), but to RECEIVE and WITHSTAND powerful blows as well (unlike modern warships), and thus, could not just ‘stand in the line,’ but STAY in the line regardless of multiple hits. It was this dual function that produced the international naval armaments race prior to WW1, as newer and stronger forms of armor and design were developed, and at the same time, newer and more powerful naval guns were successively produced to defeat that armor. Such ships produced from the 1880’s until the end of the ‘battleship era’ at the conclusion of WW2, were rapidly made obsolete by these rapid advances, such that a battleship might only have a useful life of less than ten years before being superceded by a much more powerful version, and of course, this was a VERY expensive proposition. As well, the logistics tail necessary to produce a battleship, its armor, engines and weaponry was likewise very expensive and quite specialized in nature and with little application outside the production of more battleships. Consider the equipment necessary to found, forge, and roll out enormous plates of armor steel as much as 16″ thick, and you get some idea what I am talking about.
This ‘process’ and ‘race’ by nations to create the ‘ultimate’ battlefleet found its ultimate expression just before WW1 with the invention and production of the ‘dreadnoughts;’ heavily plated with armor belts up to 14″ thick, oil-fired turbine engines to produce a minimum speed of 20 knots, and an ‘all-big gun’ armament of eight or more guns firing 11″ to 15″ diameter shells as much as 20 KM to hit their targets. These dreadnought battleships, and their dreadnought battlecruiser escorts proved their worth and lived up to their reputations in WW1, but because they WERE so expensive to produce, and any losses would represent such a loss of national treasure, there was a fair bit of concern as to how boldly they might be used. The Germans in particular (because they were outnumbered by the British navy), were loath to ‘commit’ their fleet in anything other than an opportunity whereby they might outnumber the British by trying to isolate a squadron or two of British ships that they might then destroy with their own numbers. The British attempted numerous times to achieve the same effect, but at the end of the day, there were really only three significant clashes between the behemoths, at the Falklands, Dogger Bank, and of course, Jutland.
The ‘performance’ of the battleships in the clashes can be considered not just by the amount of hits achieved, and damage inflicted, but by the number of times these ships were hit and did NOT simply explode or immediately sink, but in fact ‘stayed in the line’ and returned home in some cases wounded, but alive. The German battlescruisers were each hit by as many as 28 heavy shells of 12″, 13.5″ and 15″ shells, yet CONTINUED to fight and return damage of their own (three British battlecruisers were sunk that day, in return for the loss of but one German battlecruiser).
Such was the concern over the capabilities and expense of these ships, that after the war, long thought was given to the need to restrict the building of further battleships, and the reduction in the number of existing battleships both as a means of ‘improving the chances for a lasting peace,’ but more importantly, to protect the nations from bankruptcy. The goal of these various treaties and negotiations was to produce national fleets that were much smaller than those of the Great War and prior, with the leading nations restricted to no more than two or three battleship squadrons, depending on the nation involved (the US got three squadrons, as did the Brits, but the Japanese were only allowed two, the French and Italians one each, and the Germans NONE).
By the middle of the 1930’s, many of these battleships were becoming quite elderly, and replacements were designed on much more modern principles, with serious thought given to the threat of air-power. It is concurrent with this period that the first fleet aircraft carriers became fully operational. Because of the reduced size of the battleship fleets available, some nations, particularly the Japanese considered that the only way to achieve the kind parity necessary to fight on an equal footing was through increasing the size, firepower and armor of any new ships built. This was the origin of the ‘Yamato’ class super-battleships. Other countries like the US and Britain were similarly concerned, but with more modest ideas, such as the American ‘North Carolina’ class, and the British ‘Rodney’ class. Other nations were concerned with the rise of such threats as the German ‘pocket battleships’ of the ‘Graf Spee’ class (which in reality were not much more than rather slow heavy cruisers), producing a couple new battlecruisers of the ‘Dunkerque’ class, but generally speaking, none of these materially increased the sizes of the fleets concerned, and with the restrictions on battleship production, all navies turned to the ‘Heavy Cruiser’ as their means for fleet expansion, and just as was the case prior to WW1, produced yet another ‘arms race’ to produce the most capable heavy cruisers possible within the treaty tonnage regulations.
as a aside, the UK has just shut down its last "Basic oxygen furnace". The home of the industrial revolution, can no longer create steel, only recycle old cars in an electric furnace, but will save the planet by buying the nasty steel made in Asia
I think you are driving at a good point, where do we go from where we are at. It seems quad packed GMLRS rounds are longer range, larger punch, and require less human attention, manning. They can also hitch a ride on a very small, inexpensive, fast, stealthy, maneuverable vessel. Smallest modern ship with a mk 45 is Turkish Meko 200s. Smallest with a mod IV is Korean FFX Bach I Daegu. I think the gun is still useful, but more for down and dirty moments at sea.
Thing is, I think that in the not very distant future lasers are going to make combat aircraft largely obsolete. At that point, the aircraft carrier has no real function left. How then to project firepower on the surface efficiently?
The result of all of this was two-fold; the remaining battleships were now even MORE precious than they were during WW1, and many of the ‘tasks’ previously assigned to battleship or battlecruiser squadrons were now assigned to the heavy cruisers, and all the while the aircraft carriers became more capable and more dangerous, with the actual ‘threat’ being brought home by the British at Taranto, and the Japanese at Pearl Harbor.
NOTE: At this early point in WW2, battleships were now being deployed in pairs, not squadrons, both because of the lack of available battleships, and the concurrent loss of OPPOSING battle squadrons. This was the case for the Bismarck’s first and final cruise, opposed by a battleship and a battlecruiser (Hood), the latter of which was sunk by the German guns, but the Bismarck after escaping further attacks by the British battleship, was tracked down first crippled by aircraft torpedoes, and then finished off by a combined squadron of battleships, heavy cruisers and destroyers. Bismarck was ALONE. The Italians had a number of sorties with their battleships, invariably in pairs, and they accomplished little when faced by a similar number of British battleships and cruisers accompanied by aircraft carriers, and it was this that became the key to the future, the combined ‘task force.’
In the Pacific, the severe blow against the US battleship fleet by the Japanese as well as the British loss of a battleship and battlecruiser (again, operating ALONE and without air support) meant that there were essentially too many areas to cover to allow for the kind of ‘squadron operations’ for which the battleships were designed, and instead, the fast battleships were deployed singly, or in pairs as escorts for carrier task forces, and the heavy cruisers took up the tasks that once would have been assigned to battleships. As such the battleships were not really intended to provide ‘surface support,’ though of course that would be readily available in the event of a surface attack, but instead to use their formidable air defenses to cover the carrier from air attack, and in this role, the American battleships eventually ruled supreme. On the Japanese side, while they would often provide a ‘Kongo’ class battleship to escort carrier groups, the Japanese never assembled the kind of ‘task forces’ made so effective by the Americans. Part of the reason for this was the Japanese did NOT want to expose their battleships to situations where they might be lost individually, but preferring to keep them ‘in reserve’ for what they hoped would be a climactic ‘final battle’ in which they WOULD be used in squadrons against a weakened American fleet.
But here comes the interesting and notable part. When the Japanese finally DID deploy their battleships in squadrons (Leyte Gulf to the battle of Samar), they were duly attacked by swarms of American aircraft, HUNDREDS of American aircraft, equipped with 500 and 1000 lb bombs and torpedoes too. But only ONE of the Japanese battleships (‘Musashi’) was STOPPED by the aircraft, and only after receiving 19 torpedoes, and 17 heavy bomb hits over three continuous hours of air strikes before she was sunk! ANY of these kind of hits would have stopped, or even sunk most modern warships, and in the MEANTIME, the REST of the Japanese battleships and cruisers proceeded to their destination and point of attack. Yes, these ships were eventually driven off by hundreds more American planes, but no more battleships were lost in this quadrant, and they RETURNED to Japan for further use. Further South, a PAIR of Japanese battleships accompanied by heavy cruisers managed to escape the attentions of the American aircraft and proceeded down Surigao Straight by night, with the idea of attacking the American landing force from the rear. Unfortunately, they were met by… TWO SQUADRONS of American battleships, in a classic ‘line of battle,’ and after a number of broadside salvoes, BOTH Japanese battleships were SUNK, the cruisers were damaged and several destroyers likewise sunk. ‘See the difference?’
In a different scenario, that also involved waves of carrier aircraft flying against battleships, the example of the ‘Marianas Turkey shoot’ otherwise known as the ‘Battle of the Philippine Sea’ provides yet another example of the relative inability of aircraft against battleships. In this case, the American fleet was steaming North for the preliminaries of the invasion of the Philippines, and this brought the last big effort by the Japanese carrier forces to bear. However, while their primary targets were the big American carriers, in order to GET to them, they had to fly over an American battleship squadron and cruiser/destroyer task force in a ‘ring’ formation that stretched over tens of miles. As the waves of Japanese attack planes flew over, they were MOWN down by battleship anti-aircraft fire using ‘proximity fuses,’ and hundreds of Japanese planes were shot down before they ever arrived in the vicinity of the American carriers. Once again, battleships operating as a squadron at sea are a devastating force to contend with.
So what HAPPENED at the end of WW2? Why were no new battleships built, if they were such powerful warships? TWO things happened; the first being the atomic bomb, which was used in several tests against anchored fleets to see ‘what would happen,’ and the results were pretty devastating, even though many of the battleships so employed actually SURVIVED the tests. The second was the fact that, other than the United States and the UK, no one else HAD any battleships to speak of, let alone ‘squadrons.’ Britain finished ONE new battleship after the war (Vanguard), and the French had one, and finished another (Richelieu and Jean Bart), but their industries were largely destroyed by the war, and Britain’s economy was destroyed by the war, all heavy industry in Europe was destroyed by the war, and the Soviet Union was likewise devastated. At the same time, the US at this point now had 12 modern fast battleships, and a bunch of old ones (soon to be decommissioned), and an untouched industrial base and economy too. In other words, there was NO ONE ‘available’ to provide any naval competition, and with the Brits rapidly decommissioning and scrapping its battleships, soon to be followed by France, there was simply no CHALLENGE to the mighty American battlefleet. But battleships are expensive to maintain, and expensive to man, and as we already had an unrivalled fleet of aircraft carriers, there seemed to be no further USE for the battleships, and one by one they were put into mothballs, scrapped, or turned into ‘memorials.’ At the same time, the steel industries, now no longer needed to produce battleships, quickly scrapped the heavy and expensive equipment needed to build them, and by the mid-1960’s there was no longer the CAPABILITY to ‘build battleships,’ even if we wanted to. It is for this reason the last and most modern class of American battleship, the ‘New Jersey’ class, have REMAINED in operational condition, and in fact, they have been dragged out of mothballs and recommissioned several times since WW2, including Korea, Vietnam, and their last deployment was for the First Gulf War. That is not an ‘indication’ that battleships or the battleship concept is any way ‘obsolete,’ because regardless of whether a weapon delivery system consists of a heavy shell, or a bomb, torpedo or even missile, the fact STILL remains that these are ALL designed to deliver a large explosive against a warship, even if the delivery ‘method’ is different. In EVERY case, the battleship REMAINS ‘standing in the line’ if hit by ANY such, not just once or twice, but again and again, and that can NEVER be considered ‘obsolete.’
Great write up and correction of the record. Why hasn’t the Naval Institute Press found you? Full bore Friday columns as a book would be at least as popular as The Hunt for Red October.
I wrote for USNI for 14 yrs until ... well ... such is our age.
Superlative answer. Just over a dozen words yet says so much.
“I wouldn’t want to join a club that would have me as a member..” Will Rogers.
Ah! Their loss, certainly, Maybe when folks start worrying about being an actual Navy again.
What are the odds WS Sims would get published in the Proceedings of today?
http://seaclassicsnow.com/issue-spreads/2017/aug/SCaug17WorstConstruction.pdf
Somewhere between cooling your fingers on snowballs frozen in Hell, and sighting a flock of aviating Unicorns I'd imagine.
That mag has lost its relevance as an avenue for sharp debate of Naval Affairs. Its to the point I regret becoming a lifetime member.
How can you say that? The latest issue has an extensive discussion on stopping sailors from cursing! Because feelings...
Sure Sarah...This will help shoot down those frickin' drones.
https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2024/february/mouth-sailor-power-language-build-inclusive-culture
The Mouth of a Sailor: The Power of Language to Build an Inclusive Culture
"Sponsored by RTX"
Isn't RTX the military industrial complex?
Joined at 17. First ship DE-1027. First LPO RD1 Melvin W______. I learned the power of language, got a big dose of inclusiveness every morning at quarters when my LPO said, just before reading the POD, "Listen up, you f_ckers". When I retired 26 years later I mustered out with 0% VA disabilities claimed. Dumb, yeah, but a point of honor. Could have claimed significant hearing loss from wearing headsets and omnipresent ships noises, a gunshot wound, broken ankle, PTSD levels of sleep deprivation and a debilitating case of pottymouth. Most people I know got 10% just by asking. Way-back-when, pottymouth wasn't considered an occupational hazard, it "just was". Nekulturny? Sure. Times changed. Sensitivities changed into full-blown ass-rashes. Accommodations were made by we troglodytes, but some of that pottymouth had taken root in our DNA. It was only on my last ship that I realized my time had passed. Some of the impressionable JO's picked up my manner of speech and it embarrassed me...didn't make the XO happy either. Now, some 35 years later, I have developed a subconscious semi-auto STFU switch in my hind brain that suppresses my pottymouth fairly well. The side effect of a slight stuttering hesitancy when speaking to people I don't know well kind of mimics Parkinson's or senility sometimes, but it's the price one pays to be a gentleman. Doesn't work worth a damn in traffic.
-------------------------------
Get a life, Sarah.
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And finally, this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/6h4slx/wwii_airplane_joke_probably_posted_a_hundred/?rdt=50478
" I learned the power of language..."
LOL
I do like the way you think.
A friend of mine, ex-military and ex-other organization, has a very bad case of potty mouth. What is amazing, though, is how it clears right up depending on context; if there was a lady at the table, for example. "When in Rome", and all that.
Oh for fucks sake.
Some one get her a f_ _ kin' cuppa' joe
The linked article is whining about people the author thinks are beneath her. The demands to think and speak in a certain fashion demonstrate a kind of social status consciousness that is inappropriate for an American Officer. Is it right to demand changes in how others think?
Like it or not, the Navy is going to remain disproportionately men for the foreseeable future, and given the nature of the men and women we recruit, it's going to be a lot coarser language than expected. Many of the assumptions about language made in that article are not widely held in the Navy or in American society.
My first real exposure to women in the Navy was on staff duty in 1981 as an E-8/W-2. Lots of WAVES, mostly YN's. They were personal secretaries to post-CO tour O-5 and O-6 "Action Officers" and many on a first name basis with their bosses(which made my boss cringe). I will describe our YN as she was...YN3 Go_zales, 5'3", attractive (if she'd ever smiled), quasi-militant Hispanic, spoke very good English, no accent, was a self-described Christian woman, ~21 years old, about a 3.6 performance-wise. Our office had a post CO tour NFO EWO O-6, an elderly ex-Enlisted retired O-5 NFO EWO and me, an EWCS(SW) with 16 years in on his first shore duty tour. Oh, Lord, the number of times she reported me for an inadvertent F-bomb...and I was really trying to watch my language. But when 2 or more Fleeties get together _hit happens. Fast forward to her stealing another WAVE's pants in the women's changing room "because someone stole mine". Of course, she opted for NJP rather than a court-martial. My boss sent me to "represent" at mast. The Officer conducting NJP was a white-haired 50-something LDO CDR, one of his collateral duties was "CO of Enlisted Personnel". It was a very big staff. He adjudicated her guilty and asked me to give my say before awarding punishment. "She's a fucking thief, Commander", was all I had to say. He didn't bat an eye, gave her suspended bust/$100/2 weeks extra duty/2 weeks restriction to barracks. Shortly after, I promoted to W-2. I was still trying to mind my language but never got another complaint from the YN3 or anyone else. Neither did the SEAL CDR down the hall, at least not to his face.
I liked how she made it a point to constantly correct her instructors... So she went to school with an agenda. Officer or not, in a classroom, the instructor's boss. Her agendas showing. Right or wrong, if thered of been a "MA'AM, youre here to learn reactor theory and operation, not correct my terminology, so please do STFU", Id of been happy to hear about it. Throwing in some curse words wouldnt have hurt my feelings either. The military is about blowing up stuff and killing people, and doing all the other jobs that make that possible. All this nonsense wastes time and effort...ugh Im so fired up right now LOL...
I struggled mightly but forced myself to read the whole thing. I remember when Proceedings was a serious publication, covering serious naval issues. The fact that theres a DEI essay contest and theyre printed in Proceedings shows its just one more failed American institution. RIP...
OK, that's just fucking hilarious. I have to laugh at it, because otherwise I would weep bitter tears. Well as a nation we had a great run. I see the next dark age on the horizon.
Where is that upbeat Bubblehead optimism, Mr. Lehman? Think about that Dark Age they are foisting on us. Then imagine the TPTB breathing the air of downtown Peking, drinking from the waters of the Ganges and standing in the chow line for a half ration of Soylent Green just like the rest of us. Sharpen your shiv. Write a book about it. Smile when your royalty check comes in.
To really make your day, read:
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/life-aboard-a-nuclear-submarine?ref=thebrowser.com
It includes the phrase "All behaved as if, given the order, they would have had sufficient nerve to perform the task required."
Well, it is Vanity-Fair, possibly the most vapid east coast centric left wing rag still existent, and the author who according to his Bio holds a PhD in Arms Control, Disarmament and International Security from the University of Illinois.
He also claims to be the real life version of "the Recruit".
Lets look at some of the other quotes:
-They wanted to humanize the otherwise inhuman—some would say inhumane—reality of nuclear deterrence.
-were built, as even the juniormost sailor will tell you (without a hint of irony), to “preserve the peace”
-waiting to respond if ever an enemy—for whatever reason, including a fit of pique or miscalculation—initiates a first strike.
-American shipyards simply cannot keep pace. (speaking of the PRC shipyards, and the only worthwhile takeaway of the whole article, although he seems to be advocating for surrender in the face of that, rather than fixing it.
- Some were toting automatic weapons, a precaution when a boomer is on the surface. (Bullshit. semi auto.)
-'When the devices on this class of sub were devised in the ’70s and ’80s, they were quite modern. Some have been upgraded; others remain unchanged (one uses a crank!)' (oh, my, how archaic a crank!)
-the obligatory nod to DIE: Chairman of the Joint Chiefs General Charles Brown Jr., is part of a trio of Black leadership atop America’s national-security pyramid.
-The job of diving and steering, for example, is not in the captain’s remit. He has put that chore in the hands of the juniormost people (albeit with a senior officer seated behind them) (welcome to the US Navy, moron)
-They are completely removed from meaningful connectivity, including social media. (Oh goodness, how ever can they survive?!)
Oh and he hosed up the liturgy massively, whether on direction, or through incompetince.
Go look at the photograph of the missile keys in the article. It's hilarious.
Not nearly so bad as the news side of their house.
sid: These people are idiots. I'm trying to be inclusive.
Sims. I am not as well-read in Naval History as I'd like to be. So, seeing Sims I went down the rabbit hole and found these: https://cimsec.org/the-thinking-professional-v-the-practical-officer/
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/1922/12/16/rear-admiral-sims-tells-of-exceptional/
Back in the mid 1970s when I was a Sprucan navigator, we had a very primitive satellite nav system that could give us a fix every few hours. USNI published a short article about the system, in response to which I wrote two short paragraphs commenting that even though we had that system, I would be keeping up our skills with a sextant. Immediately afterwards, the satellite system’s PM wrote a multi-page response. That would have been a very good opportunity to take notes on the DoD acquisition empire that would have served me well later in my career.
I became a lifetime member simply thru paying for enough years. Not so sure I would be paying for it now.
If that was in the 1970s or 1980s I probably read some of your articles. I had a subscription until....well.....
Paul Harvey of Navy.
CDR Sal, great stuff. The inability to provide gun support for land operations is a capability gap that was embraced willingly by the USN as you point out.
Worked on the DDX proposal for NG in Pascagoula (aviation spaces). Since I had a sense of humor, they sat me between the naval architects (zero humor) and the weapons guys (notorious practical jokers). I learned about tumblehome hulls, the perimeter VLS system (which the USN hated but was actually much safer than traditional VLS), the CIGS (Bofors at that time) and the 155 (which was similar if not identical to the US Army Crusader gun system). The USMC was an ardent, indeed fanatical supporter of the DDX gun if not the platform per se, for obvious reasons...without the DDX there was basically little or no gun support for amphibious / littoral operations in the USN.
The whole enterprise failed for a lot of reasons. We won the proposal, and I left for another job. As far as I know, the gun never went past the creation of a barrel, might be wrong there. The Crusader failed for the US Army because there were only like eight bridges in Europe that it could traverse. The DDX hull was capable of supporting it. If working as advertised, the ability to auto load, change propellent charges and angle of launch could put an amazing number of rounds in a time on target barrage from one ship. The autoloader as depicted was intimidating, I had visions of being thrust into the breech if too close during operation.
As they say, good times, good times. Not sure if the current Zumwalt has extra missiles, a rail gun, or an empty hole where the 155s were supposed to be. There would be a lot of space to put other stuff, it wasn't small or light!
You said “enterprise”. Fine of $50.00 pay Scott the Badger on your way off the porch.
Sorry, the anecdote about Crusader and European bridges is just wrong. Crusader weighed in at 43 tons. In an Army that deployed a 65 ton M1A1. It did die because of its weight, but that was a strategic factor (moving it by air) not a tactical one. The Army was building out Striker units. and wanted to be leaner...
As further evidence, the Germans and Brits deployed the 155mm Panzerhaubitze 2000, which weighs 53 tons. Did they have secret German bridges?
AGS was fully developed. It actually worked great.
It failed because the Navy wouldn't commit to buying enough of the projectiles (since they capped the line at 3 hulls and were thinking about fighting Goat Rapists instead of China) and as a result, the cost per-projectile ballooned to something like $900,000 per round
And it was impossible to replace them with 155mm ammo that costs under $3000 including the fuze, projectile, fill and propellant because that isn't revolutionary netcentric information grid fundamentally changing warfare.
Gorgeous warship. As for: "Everyone wants to be part of something cosmic," I couldn't agree more. A cosmic fitrep where you save the ship and rediscovered that water's wet is for some the only road to success.
Memory is fuzzy but I recall some of the messages and pubs we used in HUK Ops in the North Atlantic in 1967 with a CVS and our own prototype TASS system involved "NATO Cosmic" security classifications. Thought at the time that "Cosmic" alluded to the Buck Rogers nature of our work. ASW back then looked like voodoo to my RD3 self when I was North Plot on the NC2 tracer.
Big Gun Cruisers! While ported in Subic the Ship at dock behind us was the USS Oklahoma City, good lord what an impressive US Navy ship!
It looked lethal just sitting there.
Served aboard CLG-5 March 1970 - December 1971 as an RD1. Fond memories. The decks were teak, far better for a Pollywog to crawl on than steel & non-skid. But such a lo-o-ong crawl. And the RD3's and RDSN's I had oppressed made me do it twice. I remember the humiliation of being declined a temporary berth in a bawdy house at our next port call in Klang because of my shaved legs and black & blue buttocks...them not believing my tale of becoming a Shellback.
That was one beautiful hunk of American whup ass steel!
Exactly so, Bear. The Okie City also served in the Okinawa Campaign as did 2 of my uncles, a motor mac and a pharmacist's mate, who were aboard small auxiliary ships. The ship had a dummy set of Talos missiles done up nicely in a painted dragon motif. Lots of appreciative grins from the locals during port calls. 6"/47's and 5"/38's for lots of NGFS during my tour. Whoda thunk they'd let some 21 year old RD1 with a GED be NGFS supervisor and RCO on NSAR/PIRAZ station? In its day Talos was awesome. As a kid I had glued together and painted Revell models of a Terrier and Nike Hercules launcher...some 10 years later I was on a Talos ship seeing the real thing. We never launched a Talos in anger during my tour. It was enough to illuminate an NVN MiG or cargo plane with 2 MW of the AN/SPW-2 beam rider to make them go to treetops and abort whatever they had planned. I had reenlisted to get that assignment, and the $10K VRB fueled the adventure. No regrets.
Talos was a good Missile weapons system.
Nuke capable I believe. I had a Buddy who was in the Mar Det aboard the Albany.
Was on two ship that had Mar Dets, CLG-5 and CVA-19. On both they had the shiniest brass on the ship. On CLG-5 they all vied to be on deck patrol when we'd anchor in Danang Harbor to conduct NGFS. They were given M-14's and told to shoot at anything that looked remotely "mine-like" floating in the water near the ship, no matter how small. With no communications aside from a wink, some sailors would toss their empty Coke cans over the side. Bang, bang, bang. Semper Firing. Wasn't there to see it happen but one Marine, a noob, appeared on the fantail while we were steaming at 16 kts en route to wherever it was we were going. During downtime the fantail was a nice gathering place to catch some sun and shoot the breeze. The sailors watched the Marine tie off a swab handle in preparation to toss it over the side so it'd drag astern and clean itself into as-new condition. He had a one-handed grip on the line and was about to toss the swab when a half dozen sailors yelled, "HEY WAIT!!!". Too late, the swab went over the side, the line paid out and the Marine lost skin off his hand. Lucky he had a loose grip, just some nasty rope burn. Who'd have thought that tying off to a lifeline post was a better idea? Only a noob. Aboard that Carrier the Mar Det was great...johnny-on-the-spot when you needed them. My equipment was off the ship during an SRA so I got assigned to the ship's MAA force as a section leader as an EW1. Got a call around 2000 of gunshots in one of the Supply berthing compartments. It was the Nasty 70's...drugs and tense race relations. First thing I did was notify the MarDet and QD, in that order. The Marines arrived armed to the teeth in battle-rattle in uniforms ranging from skivvies to fatigues. All I was looking for was a little backup. Marines don't Eff around when things are serious. Turned out it was a bogus call. But it didn't stop the MAA's from doing their due diligence in searching for a weapon and spent ammo. One of guys, a DP3, became a casualty. I had him searching waste cans. Poor SOB. We learned why we call them shitcans. He was going through one and grabbed on to a turd. When I got to him, he was in tears and just shaking his head and mewling. Told him to wash up and go home to his wife and kid. The Sergeant insisted on leaving a few of his men until our search was done. Good man. The atmosphere was tense. Some aspects of the Navy suck now, but never like they did in the Nasty 70's on a CV full of attitudinals and dopers. Had 8 years in and was ready to call it quits and flip burgers. But I made Chief about 4 months later and transferred to a Frigate in Hawaii. I always had the best Guardian Angel.
LOL Fun Times! Hancock was an Old Essex class, WW2 Fighting Lady.
Korea Vietnam she went there and did her job.
We had terrible race Drug and alcohol problems at CLNC CID sweeps once a month, pee in bottles, shots fired robbery, the Marines fell apart after Vietnam ended. Roving gangs of young scholars who obeyed no one.
My Co spent more time in Office hours and court martials than he did in the field.
I said the hell with this and got out. The Gator Freighter Navy was top notch though!
Did they accuse you, a round-eye barbarian of unclean habits and loose morals, of carrying some new and exotic occidental venereal disease?
There was no accusation. Looking back, I think it was because it is a Muslim country and even though they are moderate they don't comport with kinky kafir stuff. Shaved legs and a bruised bum must have set off alarms. But there was that time I went on a charter fishing boat in Subic, took a power nap on the deck in cut-off dungarees with a straw hat covering my face to recover from an overage of San Miguel. Never had a worse sunburn. The scarlet skin was febrile by nightfall and had started to bubble and blister. Couldn't go to sick bay because it was a reportable NJP offense. The pain was terrible. I lathered up with Noxema to tough it out. About a week or so later the ship was in Hong Kong and I was beginning to feel sporty again. Went ashore and got me a rental in Wanchai. I was down to my skivvies and eager when she pointed at me in horror and said, "What that?". I shot back an answer flippantly and said while pulling a big patch of peeling skin off my thigh, "Oh, this? Leprosy. But it's not contagious anymore." She fled the room. No rental refund. Dammit, I had a grin on my face...how could she not know I was joking?
A YUUUGE Full Bore!
"During her 130 days on the gunline on this deployment, "The Fighting Saint" fired a total of 64,055 rounds, making a total for the Vietnam conflict of more than 93,000."
Think about that total of ordnance on target and how would we replicate it today? How many Tomahawks? Get close enough for a single 5 incher? Just wait until the 57 mm shows up? We have emasculated our fleet by depending on 2 million dollar missiles, or a $15 Billion dollar CVN launching a 95 million dollar jet dropping $400K PGMs on a bunch of goat-f'ing ragheads. Which obviously is working sooooo well.
I wasn't privy to the details but we had a Marine Major come aboard in Subic in 1984 to evaluate our FFG's 76mm gun in a short-lived bout of NGFS on the coast of Luzon. I always suspected that any conclusion had been written before he came aboard. I was dying to know, but was OOD during the evolution. My own conclusion was that the fall of shot was hard to observe from where I was standing...and probably from where the spotter was crouched too.
CDR Sal, you wrote: "What a girl."
If you were still on active duty and used that expression, you might be sent to the DEI commissar, for not using the proper pronouns.
And BTW, there is nothing like an 8" gun if you want to send a jihadist to paradise.
I’d welcome the conversation
If the girl was a GURL (like many were back it the day) you could probably pull if off handily in an appeal and get your non-punitive letter of caution rescinded.
I’d frame a NPLOC if I ever got one. Really gaudy gold frame too.
Lets people know you'll put your career on the line.
While one can certainly argue the shortcomings of existing and future military equipment, it seems to me a failure of will is more at fault in dealing with pests like the Houthis, Iranians, and Africans. A policy where firing on American military or civilian assets brings sure, immediate, and devastating reprisal would be of much more benefit to us and our allies than even the most capable instruments of war (poorly used).
Absolutely fullbore. ST PAUL holds a special place in my heart - Grandpa Scoobs (The Blackshoe) served aboard her in 1945 as her second XO, taking her from CONUS to WESTPAC. Papa Scoobs, who later encountered her 20+ years later on the gunline off Vietnam, has an original copy of her 1945 cruise book at home. It's nice that we at least have SALEM as a surviving example of U.S. heavy cruiser technology but by all rights it should have been ST PAUL that was preserved.
It's going to get worse. I would bet AI is the buzz word in the pentagon and beltway bandit warrens. Despite all this getting smacked in the face with salty, meaty reality, billions and billions are being spent so that the robots can go fight the robots. Sure RU-UKR has hinted at an RMA underway, but there are going to be a lot of bad ideas and false prophets along the way.
I’m struck by a couple of things. First, our shipyard repair capacity was order of magnitude larger than today. For example:
“She returned to the United States for yard work at San Francisco, California, from June to September, then conducted underway training before sailing on 5 November for Korea.”
- 4 months of limited availability. Likely on time or early out of the yards.
Several replacements of her 8inch guns due to high usage. I wonder if the navy simply ran out of barrels for her due to end of life barrels and no manufacturing?
She had a powder blow in a main turret. This was decades before Iowa had a similar incident. The loss of life was comparative. Yet no gay crew man or other lie was told to explain the accident.
That ship had clean lines, was a beautiful vessel and had a fighting spirit in her traced back to a Halsey. A well led crew and good officers makes the difference.
Subic Bay was a strategic multiplier.
Warships going into harms way and going toe to toe knowing and accepting combat risk to crew and material is what our navy should be.
VADM Cooper needs a history lesson. But we digress.
Subic Bay SRF made me a bronze rotary waveguide switch for my FF's AN/ULQ-6 Deception Repeater system. It was a part on backorder for a serious CASREP. They cast and fabricated it from scratch. Not a bit of VSWR after I installed it. They wrought miracles at that facility. And damn, if my EMO didn't make me replace it when the factory made one arrived. Kept the old one as a spare. Wish I'd purloined it as a keepsake when I transferred.
Sal,
Great piece as usual! Our Navy is in great decline just like the Royal Navy. Social spending and debt interest payments will doom the defense budget. The whiz kids designing the combatants don't have an appreciation of sustained combat operations like you have so well outlined here. As a career airdale we airdales suffer the same design, build, operate problems. The Ford suffered from a "bridge too far" design problem as well. The F35, too-- a program I briefly worked on after retirement from the Navy (until the contractor lost the bid). Many of these problems can be traced to incorrect assumptions made by design teams. As to current operations, the CINC's hands are tied in the Red Sea. Nothing will change until the civilian leadership changes next year unless the Houthis plant one in the mess decks and kill a bunch of sailors. The Houthis have likely sunk a large vessel in the last couple of days. Let's see what the response is. Meanwhile we are emptying our batteries of million dollar missiles shoot down cheap drones. A good shore bombardment by the St. Paul would be welcome!
Worked for an EA-6B EWO on staff duty and with several A-6 B/N's at a training command. Top-notch men, Jeff.
Head down, walk of shame...
Earlier this week, I deleted my comment, based on the 60 minutes video, that our USN was really scraping the bottom. I realized it was intemperate, perhaps even treasonous, to publicly disparage our military. Today's Fullbore Friday, with just a few paragraphs from recent history, made me realize our defense establishment today, by comparison, are not serious people.
Just one example: A few months ago, our Navy ran acceptance tests on a shipment of shells, requiring a certain number to be fired. After firing fewer than 10% of the test batch, the base environmental commissar said they had exceeded emissions standards for the quarter. So the test was stopped, the shells were "accepted" and shipped out to the fleet.
Does anyone in a position of responsibility understand the threats we face, and that our enemies are serious?
I saw that post, Harry. Was in the process of a response when yours was deleted. You're a good man for owning up.
Dale, I sent you a response off-line.
After reviewing my response, I think it might be worth posting. Here it is:
I deleted my comment because we are at war.
It is intemperate, and perhaps treasonous, to disparage our military during wartime.
Actually, we have been at war since the U.S. was founded.
Recently (1979) the Ayatollah declared war on us, and attacked our embassy.
One of my drinking buddies was a Marine embassy guard, he surrendered and survived.
I have no quarrel with Muslims, I shared an office with a man from Bangladesh during grad school.
We enjoyed many meals together, at his home and mine.
I stand by my evaluation of the officers in the 60 minutes video as boys trying to do a man's job.
You are 100% correct, the men with the sidewinder in the video are good men.
I used to be a good man, got my ticket punched twice (1970, 1991).
I was screened for recall in 2005, I will tell you about it sometime.
No way would I allow anyone I care about to serve in our military today.
It is FUBAR.
OK, one exception.
There is a young girl in our neighborhood who intends to enlist in the Air Force after High School, and I encourage her to do so.
As a female, junior enlisted Airman (Airwoman?), she is not likely to be placed in a physically dangerous situation.
With extreme regret, I counsel almost every youngster to not risk their life for people who despise them.
During the past few years, I have encountered many men leaving our military with 10 or more years.
I typically counsel them to just suck it up and do the 20.
They typically tell me it is even more fucked up than I know.
Trust me, I do know.
It was that way when I got out in 1991.
The only reason I tell them to suck it up is for the DFAS pension, and Tricare for Life at age 65.
The humble opinion of an old hermit, our priorities are not in line with the real world.
As long as you're talking about big fucking guns; this is from quora some years back. The initial comment is mine but the rest, after "Eric Husher" is his:
In Starship Troopers Heinlein listed as one of the branches possibly open to Rico, "Combat Ecology." I've always thought that referred not to saving the interstellar snail darter, but the relationship between weapons systems and tactics that advance some groups and depress or eliminate the use of others.
Hence, this very thoughtful peace from Quora on, though the author didn't phrase it that way, the combat ecology of the battleship:
Could a modern navy build a new class of battleships, or would such vessels be obsolete?
Eric Husher, former Senior Balkan Intelligence Analyst (1992-1996)
Answered Feb 12 · Upvoted by Olan Prentice, Veteran at United States Navy
The short answer is ‘no,’ as I will explain.
I think one of the more pernicious myths is that ‘the battleship was made obsolete by the aircraft carrier and has no function today.’ You see this in book after book, but a closer examination of the facts indicates otherwise.
It is important to understand a few things about battleships before talking about ‘obsolescence’ or aircraft carriers, and the FIRST thing to know is that battleships are the direct descendants of the ‘line of battle’ of Nelson’s time. In other words, they were NEVER intended to operate alone, or as ‘a pair,’ but as a SQUADRON of no fewer than four, and preferably more, with the squadron being considered the minimum necessary to conduct all maneuvering evolutions. Squadrons would be combined to produce fleets, and it was the squadron that was used as the minimum tactical unit for battleships. This ‘understanding’ held true until WW2, when events forced navies to use battleships otherwise, and with invariably poor results.
The next thing to know is that battleships were not just intended to deliver powerful blows (like modern warships), but to RECEIVE and WITHSTAND powerful blows as well (unlike modern warships), and thus, could not just ‘stand in the line,’ but STAY in the line regardless of multiple hits. It was this dual function that produced the international naval armaments race prior to WW1, as newer and stronger forms of armor and design were developed, and at the same time, newer and more powerful naval guns were successively produced to defeat that armor. Such ships produced from the 1880’s until the end of the ‘battleship era’ at the conclusion of WW2, were rapidly made obsolete by these rapid advances, such that a battleship might only have a useful life of less than ten years before being superceded by a much more powerful version, and of course, this was a VERY expensive proposition. As well, the logistics tail necessary to produce a battleship, its armor, engines and weaponry was likewise very expensive and quite specialized in nature and with little application outside the production of more battleships. Consider the equipment necessary to found, forge, and roll out enormous plates of armor steel as much as 16″ thick, and you get some idea what I am talking about.
This ‘process’ and ‘race’ by nations to create the ‘ultimate’ battlefleet found its ultimate expression just before WW1 with the invention and production of the ‘dreadnoughts;’ heavily plated with armor belts up to 14″ thick, oil-fired turbine engines to produce a minimum speed of 20 knots, and an ‘all-big gun’ armament of eight or more guns firing 11″ to 15″ diameter shells as much as 20 KM to hit their targets. These dreadnought battleships, and their dreadnought battlecruiser escorts proved their worth and lived up to their reputations in WW1, but because they WERE so expensive to produce, and any losses would represent such a loss of national treasure, there was a fair bit of concern as to how boldly they might be used. The Germans in particular (because they were outnumbered by the British navy), were loath to ‘commit’ their fleet in anything other than an opportunity whereby they might outnumber the British by trying to isolate a squadron or two of British ships that they might then destroy with their own numbers. The British attempted numerous times to achieve the same effect, but at the end of the day, there were really only three significant clashes between the behemoths, at the Falklands, Dogger Bank, and of course, Jutland.
The ‘performance’ of the battleships in the clashes can be considered not just by the amount of hits achieved, and damage inflicted, but by the number of times these ships were hit and did NOT simply explode or immediately sink, but in fact ‘stayed in the line’ and returned home in some cases wounded, but alive. The German battlescruisers were each hit by as many as 28 heavy shells of 12″, 13.5″ and 15″ shells, yet CONTINUED to fight and return damage of their own (three British battlecruisers were sunk that day, in return for the loss of but one German battlecruiser).
Such was the concern over the capabilities and expense of these ships, that after the war, long thought was given to the need to restrict the building of further battleships, and the reduction in the number of existing battleships both as a means of ‘improving the chances for a lasting peace,’ but more importantly, to protect the nations from bankruptcy. The goal of these various treaties and negotiations was to produce national fleets that were much smaller than those of the Great War and prior, with the leading nations restricted to no more than two or three battleship squadrons, depending on the nation involved (the US got three squadrons, as did the Brits, but the Japanese were only allowed two, the French and Italians one each, and the Germans NONE).
By the middle of the 1930’s, many of these battleships were becoming quite elderly, and replacements were designed on much more modern principles, with serious thought given to the threat of air-power. It is concurrent with this period that the first fleet aircraft carriers became fully operational. Because of the reduced size of the battleship fleets available, some nations, particularly the Japanese considered that the only way to achieve the kind parity necessary to fight on an equal footing was through increasing the size, firepower and armor of any new ships built. This was the origin of the ‘Yamato’ class super-battleships. Other countries like the US and Britain were similarly concerned, but with more modest ideas, such as the American ‘North Carolina’ class, and the British ‘Rodney’ class. Other nations were concerned with the rise of such threats as the German ‘pocket battleships’ of the ‘Graf Spee’ class (which in reality were not much more than rather slow heavy cruisers), producing a couple new battlecruisers of the ‘Dunkerque’ class, but generally speaking, none of these materially increased the sizes of the fleets concerned, and with the restrictions on battleship production, all navies turned to the ‘Heavy Cruiser’ as their means for fleet expansion, and just as was the case prior to WW1, produced yet another ‘arms race’ to produce the most capable heavy cruisers possible within the treaty tonnage regulations.
as a aside, the UK has just shut down its last "Basic oxygen furnace". The home of the industrial revolution, can no longer create steel, only recycle old cars in an electric furnace, but will save the planet by buying the nasty steel made in Asia
The Drill SGT: I had read about this, elsewhere. Jaw-droppingly stupid move. The UK wil be reduced to making tea cozies, with imported fabric.
There appears to be a very limited set of things that you can't make out of DRI using an EAF.
They can't raise the manpower, even with pretty good pay, to field a substantial set of armed forces anymore, either.
I think you are driving at a good point, where do we go from where we are at. It seems quad packed GMLRS rounds are longer range, larger punch, and require less human attention, manning. They can also hitch a ride on a very small, inexpensive, fast, stealthy, maneuverable vessel. Smallest modern ship with a mk 45 is Turkish Meko 200s. Smallest with a mod IV is Korean FFX Bach I Daegu. I think the gun is still useful, but more for down and dirty moments at sea.
Thing is, I think that in the not very distant future lasers are going to make combat aircraft largely obsolete. At that point, the aircraft carrier has no real function left. How then to project firepower on the surface efficiently?
Part II:
The result of all of this was two-fold; the remaining battleships were now even MORE precious than they were during WW1, and many of the ‘tasks’ previously assigned to battleship or battlecruiser squadrons were now assigned to the heavy cruisers, and all the while the aircraft carriers became more capable and more dangerous, with the actual ‘threat’ being brought home by the British at Taranto, and the Japanese at Pearl Harbor.
NOTE: At this early point in WW2, battleships were now being deployed in pairs, not squadrons, both because of the lack of available battleships, and the concurrent loss of OPPOSING battle squadrons. This was the case for the Bismarck’s first and final cruise, opposed by a battleship and a battlecruiser (Hood), the latter of which was sunk by the German guns, but the Bismarck after escaping further attacks by the British battleship, was tracked down first crippled by aircraft torpedoes, and then finished off by a combined squadron of battleships, heavy cruisers and destroyers. Bismarck was ALONE. The Italians had a number of sorties with their battleships, invariably in pairs, and they accomplished little when faced by a similar number of British battleships and cruisers accompanied by aircraft carriers, and it was this that became the key to the future, the combined ‘task force.’
In the Pacific, the severe blow against the US battleship fleet by the Japanese as well as the British loss of a battleship and battlecruiser (again, operating ALONE and without air support) meant that there were essentially too many areas to cover to allow for the kind of ‘squadron operations’ for which the battleships were designed, and instead, the fast battleships were deployed singly, or in pairs as escorts for carrier task forces, and the heavy cruisers took up the tasks that once would have been assigned to battleships. As such the battleships were not really intended to provide ‘surface support,’ though of course that would be readily available in the event of a surface attack, but instead to use their formidable air defenses to cover the carrier from air attack, and in this role, the American battleships eventually ruled supreme. On the Japanese side, while they would often provide a ‘Kongo’ class battleship to escort carrier groups, the Japanese never assembled the kind of ‘task forces’ made so effective by the Americans. Part of the reason for this was the Japanese did NOT want to expose their battleships to situations where they might be lost individually, but preferring to keep them ‘in reserve’ for what they hoped would be a climactic ‘final battle’ in which they WOULD be used in squadrons against a weakened American fleet.
But here comes the interesting and notable part. When the Japanese finally DID deploy their battleships in squadrons (Leyte Gulf to the battle of Samar), they were duly attacked by swarms of American aircraft, HUNDREDS of American aircraft, equipped with 500 and 1000 lb bombs and torpedoes too. But only ONE of the Japanese battleships (‘Musashi’) was STOPPED by the aircraft, and only after receiving 19 torpedoes, and 17 heavy bomb hits over three continuous hours of air strikes before she was sunk! ANY of these kind of hits would have stopped, or even sunk most modern warships, and in the MEANTIME, the REST of the Japanese battleships and cruisers proceeded to their destination and point of attack. Yes, these ships were eventually driven off by hundreds more American planes, but no more battleships were lost in this quadrant, and they RETURNED to Japan for further use. Further South, a PAIR of Japanese battleships accompanied by heavy cruisers managed to escape the attentions of the American aircraft and proceeded down Surigao Straight by night, with the idea of attacking the American landing force from the rear. Unfortunately, they were met by… TWO SQUADRONS of American battleships, in a classic ‘line of battle,’ and after a number of broadside salvoes, BOTH Japanese battleships were SUNK, the cruisers were damaged and several destroyers likewise sunk. ‘See the difference?’
In a different scenario, that also involved waves of carrier aircraft flying against battleships, the example of the ‘Marianas Turkey shoot’ otherwise known as the ‘Battle of the Philippine Sea’ provides yet another example of the relative inability of aircraft against battleships. In this case, the American fleet was steaming North for the preliminaries of the invasion of the Philippines, and this brought the last big effort by the Japanese carrier forces to bear. However, while their primary targets were the big American carriers, in order to GET to them, they had to fly over an American battleship squadron and cruiser/destroyer task force in a ‘ring’ formation that stretched over tens of miles. As the waves of Japanese attack planes flew over, they were MOWN down by battleship anti-aircraft fire using ‘proximity fuses,’ and hundreds of Japanese planes were shot down before they ever arrived in the vicinity of the American carriers. Once again, battleships operating as a squadron at sea are a devastating force to contend with.
So what HAPPENED at the end of WW2? Why were no new battleships built, if they were such powerful warships? TWO things happened; the first being the atomic bomb, which was used in several tests against anchored fleets to see ‘what would happen,’ and the results were pretty devastating, even though many of the battleships so employed actually SURVIVED the tests. The second was the fact that, other than the United States and the UK, no one else HAD any battleships to speak of, let alone ‘squadrons.’ Britain finished ONE new battleship after the war (Vanguard), and the French had one, and finished another (Richelieu and Jean Bart), but their industries were largely destroyed by the war, and Britain’s economy was destroyed by the war, all heavy industry in Europe was destroyed by the war, and the Soviet Union was likewise devastated. At the same time, the US at this point now had 12 modern fast battleships, and a bunch of old ones (soon to be decommissioned), and an untouched industrial base and economy too. In other words, there was NO ONE ‘available’ to provide any naval competition, and with the Brits rapidly decommissioning and scrapping its battleships, soon to be followed by France, there was simply no CHALLENGE to the mighty American battlefleet. But battleships are expensive to maintain, and expensive to man, and as we already had an unrivalled fleet of aircraft carriers, there seemed to be no further USE for the battleships, and one by one they were put into mothballs, scrapped, or turned into ‘memorials.’ At the same time, the steel industries, now no longer needed to produce battleships, quickly scrapped the heavy and expensive equipment needed to build them, and by the mid-1960’s there was no longer the CAPABILITY to ‘build battleships,’ even if we wanted to. It is for this reason the last and most modern class of American battleship, the ‘New Jersey’ class, have REMAINED in operational condition, and in fact, they have been dragged out of mothballs and recommissioned several times since WW2, including Korea, Vietnam, and their last deployment was for the First Gulf War. That is not an ‘indication’ that battleships or the battleship concept is any way ‘obsolete,’ because regardless of whether a weapon delivery system consists of a heavy shell, or a bomb, torpedo or even missile, the fact STILL remains that these are ALL designed to deliver a large explosive against a warship, even if the delivery ‘method’ is different. In EVERY case, the battleship REMAINS ‘standing in the line’ if hit by ANY such, not just once or twice, but again and again, and that can NEVER be considered ‘obsolete.’
"When I say engaged in combat, where they're getting shot at, we're getting shot at, and we're shooting back,"
Well. No.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/11/110227510.jpg