Absolutely true on your second point. They are both volumetric monsters. The design challenge is to ensure they are appropriately matched with kinetics - one of several failings of the LCS concept.
Right! The post WW2 DL-1 USS Norfolk constructed in 1949 and commissioned in 1953, was no match for the Fletcher class Destroyer either in a one to one gun dual either, even after being more than twice the displacement of the Fletchers at ~5,600-tons, ~540’ long and a crew of ~546 and mounting only four twin Mk 26 3”/70-caliber guns…
Threats change, and design responses must follow. The point I would make is that those decisions can be made well,…..and they can be made badly. At least the Norfolk was designed such that she had appropriate design margins so she could be reconfigured in 1960, when ASROC was added. Neither class of LCS has much of an option there.
The Mk44 30x173mm guns also have an ASW feature in being able to fire the Nammo Mk258 Mod 1 30x173mm APFSDS-T “Swimmer” anti submarine round capable of engaging submarines operating below the surface of the sea out to a range of ~4,000-meters! And can penetrate up to >100mm of RHA at ~1,000-meters…
There lots of types of weapons, to include electronic defense and offense. When I studied kinetics as an undergrad, it meant things in motion, which can include roundshot, AP, HE, and components of the thing you just disassembled with great prejudice. Admittedly, that undergrad class was intended to indoctrinate us into the wonderful world of the speed to the ends of levers, cams, and gears. All knowledge is useful.
Yep. The misuse of the word "kinetics" as referring to combat, etc. is a pet peeve of mine. "Kinetics" already has a definition and etymology. I detest the euphemization and jargonization of language. I see nothing wrong in eating in a Mess Hall, as opposed to a "Dining Facility". I am a crotchety old man and I DGAF, so STAY OFF MY LAWN! and STAY OFF MY WORDS!
In a slugfest between two opposing forces a mission kill is almost as good as a sinking. I can't think of our ships built in the past 50 years that could carry on in battle like USS Heerman did.
I am willing to paycheck bet that neither LCS class can make more than 35 knots these days, and both classes in aggregate have spent less than 1 (ok, maybe 2) percent of their operational lives above that speed.
Correct. Also, any book by James Hornfischer, who died too young. Any history of the Pacific war will include a significant discussion on the Battle off Samar.
Prior to his demise from old age, my next door neighbor and friend of some years was one of the engineering officers on U.S.S. Heerman during that battle. I remember he once recalled to me that he and shipmates were disgusted that all her torpedos missed their targets, however most of his recollections were second-hand because he was below, sweating with the engines.
Yeah, Badass of the Week is sometimes kinda... well, weak on the history part. I don't follow it regularly, but mostly when I do peek in I go for the style than historical accuracy.
What a movie script! Might be a tough sell, as the decision makers might say " no one would believe people would actually do this." Well, in different times, people did do this. Midway and Normandy were attacks, this was defending against a nightmarish sized adversary that no one saw coming. These small ships and crews didn't march to the sound of guns, they sprinted.
Spent some time on the USS Cole in Pascagoula as we put her back together (a non-cost effective but morale essential activity at the time). At that time, the Arleigh Burke's had a lot of empty space in the hull. That saved the ship from being literally broken in two, as the blast effects channeled outwards to some extent.
My Dad served under then Captain Clifton Sprague at Pearl Harbor - USS Tangier, AV8. Then in the mid 1950's he was Radio Operator on Admiral Stumps plane, flying from Barber's Point, Hawaii.
22 days later, Battleship Kongo was sunk by USS Sealion as she, Yamato, and Nagato were steaming back toward Japan following the battle, all three having been found unfit to continue combat without a refit. Kongo only took two torpedo hits. Maybe Heerman did more damage than the Japanese realized.
The 3 DD's and 4 DE's all have amazing stories at Samar. My particular favs are the DE USS Samuel B. Roberts who apparently got 1.5 CA's before she went down. As a DE, she was only 2/3 the speed of the DDs and 40% of the guns. After blowing the stern off one CA, she closed so close to another CA that the enemy guns could not depress enough, while USS Samuel B. Roberts raked the enemy bridge with 20mm fire. 3, 14 inch shells from the Kongo finished her.
"“This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can.”
As Johnston sank, Yukikaze closed to point blank range, not for an attack, but to salute the valiant destroyer for her bravery, with Captain Masamichi personally paying his respects to the US sailors and a large number of the crew doing the same.
My favorite Tin Can movie is Greyhound starring Tom Hanks. It contains a wealth of illustrations on great leadership. Reminds me of my service on the USS The Sullivans,(DD537) as a Middy back in 1961.
the massiveness of our operations there is mind-blowing considering how little comes regularly to public consciousness, aside from macarthur’s photo op at leyte.
From the perspective of Gambier Bay ship's company.
"Dick Ballinger was swimming away from the ship with a young sailor who saw some reason for optimism. He said, Commander, this means thirty days survivor’s leave, doesn’t it?”
Size of the spirit in the crew.
Electronics and aviation facilities really eat up displacement on a ship.
Absolutely true on your second point. They are both volumetric monsters. The design challenge is to ensure they are appropriately matched with kinetics - one of several failings of the LCS concept.
Right! The post WW2 DL-1 USS Norfolk constructed in 1949 and commissioned in 1953, was no match for the Fletcher class Destroyer either in a one to one gun dual either, even after being more than twice the displacement of the Fletchers at ~5,600-tons, ~540’ long and a crew of ~546 and mounting only four twin Mk 26 3”/70-caliber guns…
Threats change, and design responses must follow. The point I would make is that those decisions can be made well,…..and they can be made badly. At least the Norfolk was designed such that she had appropriate design margins so she could be reconfigured in 1960, when ASROC was added. Neither class of LCS has much of an option there.
The Mk44 30x173mm guns also have an ASW feature in being able to fire the Nammo Mk258 Mod 1 30x173mm APFSDS-T “Swimmer” anti submarine round capable of engaging submarines operating below the surface of the sea out to a range of ~4,000-meters! And can penetrate up to >100mm of RHA at ~1,000-meters…
"kinetics"
Is that anything like "weapons"? Seems like it would be more closely related to propulsion; motion, and all that.
There lots of types of weapons, to include electronic defense and offense. When I studied kinetics as an undergrad, it meant things in motion, which can include roundshot, AP, HE, and components of the thing you just disassembled with great prejudice. Admittedly, that undergrad class was intended to indoctrinate us into the wonderful world of the speed to the ends of levers, cams, and gears. All knowledge is useful.
"with great prejudice. "
Yep. The misuse of the word "kinetics" as referring to combat, etc. is a pet peeve of mine. "Kinetics" already has a definition and etymology. I detest the euphemization and jargonization of language. I see nothing wrong in eating in a Mess Hall, as opposed to a "Dining Facility". I am a crotchety old man and I DGAF, so STAY OFF MY LAWN! and STAY OFF MY WORDS!
Fair enough. How do refer to software or jamming when used as offensive means of defeating an enemy?
In a slugfest between two opposing forces a mission kill is almost as good as a sinking. I can't think of our ships built in the past 50 years that could carry on in battle like USS Heerman did.
Fight or flight… I choose fight.
In an LCS?
Just stay home and accept the inevitable.
Assuming you can get to the fight without an engineering casualty.
No worries, they won’t have the fuel.
Well, if they can get up to speed, the hull cracking in half will probably leave more survivors than getting hit by missiles.
"Well, if they can get up to speed,"
I am willing to paycheck bet that neither LCS class can make more than 35 knots these days, and both classes in aggregate have spent less than 1 (ok, maybe 2) percent of their operational lives above that speed.
For those interested in the full story I recommend "Last Stand Of The Tin Can Sailors"
Correct. Also, any book by James Hornfischer, who died too young. Any history of the Pacific war will include a significant discussion on the Battle off Samar.
My Sunday School book in 1960 included the story of _Samuel B. Roberts_. The subject was sacrifice.
Hornfischer did indeed die far too young; but he left us some magnificent books.
great book
https://www.amazon.com/Last-Stand-Tin-Sailors-Extraordinary/dp/0553381482/ref=sr_1_1?adgrpid=1331510244810113&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.H6lhiyd23skS_pKbKvGsdD8LWKn1gpw9W1A9BkuwWdPM_WIfGw69zDci4stV8Q25h2xljvwyNumXLmqWBCWmeL2kVHiu8ud5CHqZC0Y2a2uWGjTf2PL0oR4Y5ygNb7o35LpBDIKlJlcN9EdNwcEbfh9BRgXVN36hAsiUMzEx6-Ys21aa3PKSHLs7EUiRcIQCny_jxT2_Xa4YMdsOI7oiPi_NKImxv9ia3UQ8HpcIi04.ZXJnQHs_XvCBADRTrwWjbmwrjaXAek8RLVHQ-wJMeA4&dib_tag=se&hvadid=83219659836323&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=108701&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvtargid=kwd-83220409826106%3Aloc-190&hydadcr=7629_13467828&keywords=last+stand+of+the+tin+can+sailors+book&msclkid=6f624b35864e15f9d8f92db27d9f7d5f&qid=1720187863&sr=8-1
Concur. Highly recommend the audio version: https://rb.gy/omrcm6.
Prior to his demise from old age, my next door neighbor and friend of some years was one of the engineering officers on U.S.S. Heerman during that battle. I remember he once recalled to me that he and shipmates were disgusted that all her torpedos missed their targets, however most of his recollections were second-hand because he was below, sweating with the engines.
For a slightly tongue-in-cheek take, Badass of the Week also covered Taffy-3: https://www.badassoftheweek.com/taffy3
(Salty language, but I suspect the website name was enough of a hint of that.)
enjoyable but not well edited, for example:
"U.S.S. Johnston. A fifteen-thousand-ton Fletcher-class destroyer"
and no mention of Taffy 1 and 2 planes
Yeah, Badass of the Week is sometimes kinda... well, weak on the history part. I don't follow it regularly, but mostly when I do peek in I go for the style than historical accuracy.
What a movie script! Might be a tough sell, as the decision makers might say " no one would believe people would actually do this." Well, in different times, people did do this. Midway and Normandy were attacks, this was defending against a nightmarish sized adversary that no one saw coming. These small ships and crews didn't march to the sound of guns, they sprinted.
Spent some time on the USS Cole in Pascagoula as we put her back together (a non-cost effective but morale essential activity at the time). At that time, the Arleigh Burke's had a lot of empty space in the hull. That saved the ship from being literally broken in two, as the blast effects channeled outwards to some extent.
In Harm's Way is that movie, somewhat disguised, but it is about the Battle Off Samar.
It seems to me that the In Harm's Way battle was a blend of the Battles of Surigao Strait and Samar.
In favor of your theory, both harms way and Samar had no US Battleships
Against your theory, Harms way and Surigao were at night, the US was aware of the threat, on the defense (T crossing), and featured PT boat attacks
I would opine Harm's Way (movie was based on a novel by James Basset) was more a blend of Savo and Kula Gulf...
[edit] And Surigao for the PT boat action. Of note the novel was published in 1962, so the PT-109 story had wide recognition as Kennedy was in office.
As is often the case, the novel was better than the movie, IMHO...
https://www.amazon.com/Harms-Way-James-Bassett/dp/B0007DERI6
They had fighting spirit. That indicates good leadership.
Ah! the days when the US Navy was competent and deadly.
My Dad served under then Captain Clifton Sprague at Pearl Harbor - USS Tangier, AV8. Then in the mid 1950's he was Radio Operator on Admiral Stumps plane, flying from Barber's Point, Hawaii.
22 days later, Battleship Kongo was sunk by USS Sealion as she, Yamato, and Nagato were steaming back toward Japan following the battle, all three having been found unfit to continue combat without a refit. Kongo only took two torpedo hits. Maybe Heerman did more damage than the Japanese realized.
was the “Taffy” callsign an allusion to “salt water” at all?
A task force (TF)
o7
The 3 DD's and 4 DE's all have amazing stories at Samar. My particular favs are the DE USS Samuel B. Roberts who apparently got 1.5 CA's before she went down. As a DE, she was only 2/3 the speed of the DDs and 40% of the guns. After blowing the stern off one CA, she closed so close to another CA that the enemy guns could not depress enough, while USS Samuel B. Roberts raked the enemy bridge with 20mm fire. 3, 14 inch shells from the Kongo finished her.
"“This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can.”
another factiod. Designed for 23-24 knots, at Samar, she did 28.9 knots by overpressuring the boilers by 20-30%
Because. Leadership.
As Johnston sank, Yukikaze closed to point blank range, not for an attack, but to salute the valiant destroyer for her bravery, with Captain Masamichi personally paying his respects to the US sailors and a large number of the crew doing the same.
An honorable thing to do.
Dr. Walker (Montana State) has a book out on the IJN Yukikaze that released last month. I haven't read it yet so I can't say whether it is any good.
https://www.cambridge.org/us/universitypress/subjects/history/military-history/yukikazes-war-unsinkable-japanese-destroyer-and-world-war-ii-pacific?format=HB
Thanks for the link. Looks interesting.
I’ve got a copy - a decent account of one IJN destroyer’s war but with a fair amount of padding.
My favorite Tin Can movie is Greyhound starring Tom Hanks. It contains a wealth of illustrations on great leadership. Reminds me of my service on the USS The Sullivans,(DD537) as a Middy back in 1961.
Can't deal with "Greyhound" at all; far too many inaccuracies.
“Fast And The Furious” goes ASW!
Dunno..."Fast and Furious" may be more factual...
Stumbled across this little known film over the weekend - not the greatest but some good Fletcher footage: https://youtu.be/xSTjD_ieNQs?si=yincFzHpOD5368Fs
I am educated by your explanation of the battle tactics. I had not realized how important smoke was. We, in the Marines are very aware of this.
more so in the age of optical, rather than radar targeting
"The Fog of War" quite literally, and was instrumental is keeping the Japanese off balance in
the crucial phases of the battle.
Of course, with all the wonderful technology we have today, we don't have to worry about that pesky Fog of War stuff anymore....
Right?
whenever i think of naval operations in the philippines, this comes to mind. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hJcDVbH5q3k
the massiveness of our operations there is mind-blowing considering how little comes regularly to public consciousness, aside from macarthur’s photo op at leyte.
USS Bush (DD-529). Their deck log that day: https://www.ussbush.com/mindoro.htm
very interesting. thank you for sharing.
From the perspective of Gambier Bay ship's company.
"Dick Ballinger was swimming away from the ship with a young sailor who saw some reason for optimism. He said, Commander, this means thirty days survivor’s leave, doesn’t it?”
https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/2019/october/gambier-bays-final-hours
And please don't forget the St. Lo, just when the surface action ended gets clobbered by the first kamikaze of the war.
All followed by a couple of days in the water.
It appears everyone had their big boy pants on that day.
Amazing they named St Lo just months after the break through by the 3rd Army.
According to Wikipedia she was renamed. One can only imagine the bad luck to rename the ship scuttlebutt amongst the crew.
It’s a thing
She had been named the Midway.