You really think there are commercial, ocean going tugs? I suspect 99%? never go into international waters. Then what subset can actually pull a CVN? We could fix some of this be converting used OSVs rather than only the new builds.
Heavy AHTS vessels can. My employer has completed contracts for the navy for everything short of a carrier for sure and I THINK we did the Enterprise but not positive. We also had a contract to replace some salvage ships for some time but IDK where that stands at present.
This! Not to mention those guys are old and getting older. We need a feeder of younger people and the Navy was a good source of mid career people with extensive/expensive training.
I've been aboard the USS Laffey at Patriots Point. I got weird feelings while touring the ship like I was being watched for proper behavior and decorum for the dead crewmen. Of course, I was respectful as were my friends (all military). Amazing ship. Iron ship WITH Iron Men.
Great FBF! Yep, you walk the decks and wonder if our current ships could sustain that damage and continue to fight, and if our "woke" crews would rise to the occasion. And the "living spaces" were so unimpressive my wife commented that they were "one step above sleeping outside on the parking lot". A proud legacy that needs to continue.
I agree. We need a new USS Laffey and a USS Becton. There are a couple of ships out there that could have been named Laffey and/or Becton instead of who they were named for. I will not say what those ships are. I'm just an old Jarhead. What do I know?
I think you get it. Some names may be poor choices and some crew members may be woke, but that doesn't mean they don't take pride in their crewmates and ship and it doesn't yet define what they will or will not do under duress. I think many people rise to the occasion as a natural survival instinct along with the human understanding of knowing you cannot live to face others if you fail in the moment.
Following WWIi, BUSIPS (now NAVSEA) performed a comprehensive study of all battle damage reports and established intact and damage stability criteria that the NAVSEA design engineers continually battle to enforce. While DDG 51 was being designed following the Falkland Islands War, NAVSEA conducted a thorough analysis by the first Ship Survivability Review Group (SRG). The SRG findings were incorporated in the DDG 51 Detail Design. These survivability standards are always under attack for being too expensive. With more engineering in early ship design, cost can be minimized. NAVSEA needs a lot more design engineers (comparable to the numbers in the 1980s) to “fight the good fights” for survivable warships!
Assistant communications officer Lieutenant Frank Manson asked Captain Becton if he thought they'd have to abandon ship, to which he snapped, "No! I'll never abandon ship as long as a single gun will fire." Becton did not hear a nearby lookout softly say, "And if I can find one man to fire it."
The chapter in volume 14 of Morison's History of United States Naval Operations in World War II, entitled 'Seventy-Nine Minutes on the Picket Line,' never fails to move me. It is the account of Laffey, and the grim heroism of Becton and his crew. I must have read those pages forty times. THEY should be the example for every Naval Officer and Petty Officer. "Would I and my sailors have the discipline, courage, and professional knowledge to be able to do what those men did?"
In our history it's been said ships were made of wood and men were made of steel. Warriors like Nimitz, Halsey, Farragut, Leahy, King, Becton and countless others would have been court martialed and drummed out of today's Navy by the time they made LTJG. These men didn't lead and fight for a war chest. They were American Heros.
Once upon a time good people could make mistakes or even, as Nimitz did, fuck up spectacularly, and survive the punishment and their career continue. Not the zero defects, we need to groupthink every major decision and make sure left-wing nuts are appeased that we have today.
Can we start a campaign to get one of the new Frigates or DDX named after Adm Becton? It's the least we can do!! No more congressmen or woke govt slackers should apply.
Absolutely fullbore. Grandpa Scoobs (the blackshoe) steamed with LAFFEY off Normandy as CO of MEREDITH (DD-726) - both ships were constructed alongside each other at Bath Iron Works and were part of DESDIV 119 / DESRON 60. MEREDITH's luck ran out at 0152 on the morning 8 June when she caught something (most likely a Hs-293 glide bomb) while on the gun line off Utah Beach - she lingered for a day before finally breaking in two and going down. Papa Scoobs and I have often wondered how things would have played out if 726 had survived Normandy and made the shift to the Pacific along with her squadron mates. Whenever I'm in Charleston I make it over to Patriots Point to visit LAFFEY and honor all the brave destroyermen who have gone in harm's way.
Would have been nice if she'd made it tto the 12th to fight those E-boats. I wish someone had a book out there comparing the small torpedo boat types of WWII to determine what worked best. I just feel like as adaptable as ur PT boats were, that extra displacement of E-boats and Dog Boats let them get around quite a bit better.
Indeed - Grandpa Scoobs' account mentioned some probing attacks by E-boats but nothing where they could actually engage them - her first shots fired in anger came on D+1 against targets ashore while conducting "littoral combat", 1944 style. Of note, he shared something else in common with Skipper Becton - they both previously had ships shot out from underneath them, in Grandpa Scoobs' case it was WASP CV-7 off Guadalcanal.
Another item I can add to the long list of things which happened on 25 June. Also that the other advantage of quantity is being able to keep the memory of a worthy history alive to inspire.
You really think there are commercial, ocean going tugs? I suspect 99%? never go into international waters. Then what subset can actually pull a CVN? We could fix some of this be converting used OSVs rather than only the new builds.
They also have a number of other contracts a lot closer to the pointy end along with Maersk AND Hornbeck.
Heavy AHTS vessels can. My employer has completed contracts for the navy for everything short of a carrier for sure and I THINK we did the Enterprise but not positive. We also had a contract to replace some salvage ships for some time but IDK where that stands at present.
This! Not to mention those guys are old and getting older. We need a feeder of younger people and the Navy was a good source of mid career people with extensive/expensive training.
I've been aboard the USS Laffey at Patriots Point. I got weird feelings while touring the ship like I was being watched for proper behavior and decorum for the dead crewmen. Of course, I was respectful as were my friends (all military). Amazing ship. Iron ship WITH Iron Men.
Great FBF! Yep, you walk the decks and wonder if our current ships could sustain that damage and continue to fight, and if our "woke" crews would rise to the occasion. And the "living spaces" were so unimpressive my wife commented that they were "one step above sleeping outside on the parking lot". A proud legacy that needs to continue.
I agree. We need a new USS Laffey and a USS Becton. There are a couple of ships out there that could have been named Laffey and/or Becton instead of who they were named for. I will not say what those ships are. I'm just an old Jarhead. What do I know?
I think you get it. Some names may be poor choices and some crew members may be woke, but that doesn't mean they don't take pride in their crewmates and ship and it doesn't yet define what they will or will not do under duress. I think many people rise to the occasion as a natural survival instinct along with the human understanding of knowing you cannot live to face others if you fail in the moment.
Following WWIi, BUSIPS (now NAVSEA) performed a comprehensive study of all battle damage reports and established intact and damage stability criteria that the NAVSEA design engineers continually battle to enforce. While DDG 51 was being designed following the Falkland Islands War, NAVSEA conducted a thorough analysis by the first Ship Survivability Review Group (SRG). The SRG findings were incorporated in the DDG 51 Detail Design. These survivability standards are always under attack for being too expensive. With more engineering in early ship design, cost can be minimized. NAVSEA needs a lot more design engineers (comparable to the numbers in the 1980s) to “fight the good fights” for survivable warships!
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA133333.pdf
"Rise to the occasion" sounds great but the reality is that we fall to the level of our training.
A shouting amen to naming a DDG after this man!!! Great read sir...
...It is one of the most sobering feelings I've ever experienced to stand on LAFFEY and imagine what it was like...and know there was nowhere to run.
DD's Are Real Navy.
Pish...
Vulnerability Reduction is just so...
Mid 20th Century.
Simple stuff like bulkhead permeability, protected IC systems, critical component redundancy and separation...
So .. Regressive!
All you need in these Evolved, highly intelligent, times, is that billion dollar whiz bang system from a Prime that will kill all threats at any time!
Or just say screw it...and Hide In Plain Sight!
Avoid the baby!
And then we buy 12 missiles a year to do all the threat killing.
https://www.twz.com/sea/more-sm-3-interceptors-needed-after-downing-iranian-ballistic-missiles-navy-secretary
Assistant communications officer Lieutenant Frank Manson asked Captain Becton if he thought they'd have to abandon ship, to which he snapped, "No! I'll never abandon ship as long as a single gun will fire." Becton did not hear a nearby lookout softly say, "And if I can find one man to fire it."
Whitehats got that special humor.
We walked her deck waiting for my son's graduation from PI, took a special trip to see her before the graduation event, awesome little fighting ship!
We are missing lots of names that should never be forgotten: Neosho, Sims, England, Lexington, Saratoga- it’s a long list. How about another Sammy B?
The chapter in volume 14 of Morison's History of United States Naval Operations in World War II, entitled 'Seventy-Nine Minutes on the Picket Line,' never fails to move me. It is the account of Laffey, and the grim heroism of Becton and his crew. I must have read those pages forty times. THEY should be the example for every Naval Officer and Petty Officer. "Would I and my sailors have the discipline, courage, and professional knowledge to be able to do what those men did?"
In our history it's been said ships were made of wood and men were made of steel. Warriors like Nimitz, Halsey, Farragut, Leahy, King, Becton and countless others would have been court martialed and drummed out of today's Navy by the time they made LTJG. These men didn't lead and fight for a war chest. They were American Heros.
Nimitz was court martialed in 1906, found guilty and told to take more care in the future by the Admiral.
Thanks for keeping me straight.
Once upon a time good people could make mistakes or even, as Nimitz did, fuck up spectacularly, and survive the punishment and their career continue. Not the zero defects, we need to groupthink every major decision and make sure left-wing nuts are appeased that we have today.
Excellent FbF! Thank you, now if only I could find that book in ebook form, but it seems it's too old.
I'm amazed - well, I didn't even know it's possible to tow a ship (not a small boat) across the Pacific. Ocean tug boats sound awesome!
Wow. OK, towing across open ocean is one thing. Towing through the straits of Magellan? I did not imagine such a thing is possible… Thank you!
You could try to find a copy of the "real thing" via WorldCat, here:
https://search.worldcat.org/title/6357370
PS: I just ordered a used copy from AbeBooks.... :-)
Can we start a campaign to get one of the new Frigates or DDX named after Adm Becton? It's the least we can do!! No more congressmen or woke govt slackers should apply.
Will someone please tell me why we do not have a DDG-51 named after this man?
too many dead politicians
As a staff member of DESRON 36 in he mid 60s, I got to ride (and sail with) Laffey. Her call sign was "Wild Bull" as I recall. Appropriate!
Absolutely fullbore. Grandpa Scoobs (the blackshoe) steamed with LAFFEY off Normandy as CO of MEREDITH (DD-726) - both ships were constructed alongside each other at Bath Iron Works and were part of DESDIV 119 / DESRON 60. MEREDITH's luck ran out at 0152 on the morning 8 June when she caught something (most likely a Hs-293 glide bomb) while on the gun line off Utah Beach - she lingered for a day before finally breaking in two and going down. Papa Scoobs and I have often wondered how things would have played out if 726 had survived Normandy and made the shift to the Pacific along with her squadron mates. Whenever I'm in Charleston I make it over to Patriots Point to visit LAFFEY and honor all the brave destroyermen who have gone in harm's way.
Would have been nice if she'd made it tto the 12th to fight those E-boats. I wish someone had a book out there comparing the small torpedo boat types of WWII to determine what worked best. I just feel like as adaptable as ur PT boats were, that extra displacement of E-boats and Dog Boats let them get around quite a bit better.
Indeed - Grandpa Scoobs' account mentioned some probing attacks by E-boats but nothing where they could actually engage them - her first shots fired in anger came on D+1 against targets ashore while conducting "littoral combat", 1944 style. Of note, he shared something else in common with Skipper Becton - they both previously had ships shot out from underneath them, in Grandpa Scoobs' case it was WASP CV-7 off Guadalcanal.
https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ships/logs/DD/dd726-Knuepfer.html
Another item I can add to the long list of things which happened on 25 June. Also that the other advantage of quantity is being able to keep the memory of a worthy history alive to inspire.