Goeben outgunned Russia's predreadnoughts individually bit the Russians had anticipated a dreadnought arriving in the Black Sea and had drilled in a technique which allowed them to share fire control data across the line of battle, and permit four ships to fire as a unit. They gave Goeben a lot of trouble using this method, as can be seen from the combat record.
"Russians had anticipated a dreadnought arriving in the Black Sea and had drilled in a technique which allowed them to share fire control data across the line of battle, and permit four ships to fire as a unit."
That's interesting. Do you haveca source that gives detail?
My takeaway here is that there is huge value in having the right assets available for foreign military sales to improve our diplomacy and strength abroad. FFG-7 has proven a massive success in those terms. LCS has not. Right now we are only really providing hordes of patrol boats under 35 meters (115 feet). We could easily be a leader in missile boats and smaller corvettes. Look at MUSV/Overlord ships and think a smidge bigger. We could also translate our UUV work into viable manned mini subs. When you wonder why we don't have a foreign buyer for FRCs consider they can all just buy the original 43m Damen model for much, much cheaper. Everyone hates aluminum, but the reality is this is a material our shipbuilding industry has mastered. It and waterjets provide more speed, range, and shallower draft for smaller vessels such they can use the littoral terrain.
We should also look at developing a smaller, high speed connector as no one in the west has one smaller than an LCAC (or the French thingy). I'd also say the Birdon concept for LSM probably plays closest to leveraging our offshore building capacity.
Likewise the Russians inflicted serious blows on Austria in 1914 and 1916. Even after the fall of the Czar the Russians under Kerensky held down large numbers of German forces. This is why I get so mad at the neocon geniuses in DC who casually dismiss Russia as a gas tank with nuclear weapons.
Problem with Gulf Copper Galveston is the Port owns the land the yard is on (long term lease), and neither party is willing to pay for improvements to piers at that location. However, Ma Drydock, as she’s affectionately known, can be moved.
The seismic company I once worked for had a facility just up Todd road, where the A&M sea camp is now.
Pelican Island is quite the rust belt now.
Where on the Gulf could that dock be moved to?
Dont think Mobile has the room. Dont think Tampa does either. The Avondale property is a no go. Pascagoula has bigger fish to fry. Brownsville I guess.
This is where MARAD is stupid. They should facilitate keeping that dock there, and develop the area more for ship maintenance.
Its not like there is one of the world's largest ports nearby or anything.
When I was a docent on the Texas some years back, there was talk then about towing her to then still open Avondale (but not for long), as that was nearest place that could take her since Todd Shipyard had closed.
The USN put the nix on it, since they (rightly) deemed she would probably sink on the journey. It sounded like Niagara Falls back in after steering with the inrush of water from all the leaks.
I'm sure there was more than a little angst just getting her down to Galveston.
I was down there last week. One of the officers in my reserve sister unit works at Gulf Copper. That's how I got to see Texas, as well as Mandatory Fun at the Galveston Naval Museum. I can say I held morning quarters on the forecastle of a battleship!
To get a ship that age and leaky over to yard, they filled the leaking blisters with foam, that had to be cut off with high pressure water, as well as replacement. They also found that there is a 2 foot distance away from rivets to weld.
I agree with you on the foolishness, but the perverse incentives in modern politics means that anyone with a lick of sanity cannot obtain the status needed to effect policies that would include supporting a site like GC in Galveston.
Full bore indeed. As a matter of note: I have a piece of Goeben. When my last command was in the Med in 1983, we were sent to Golcuk Naval Shipyard for an upkeep availability. Good yard with hard working people. I received a miniature brass cannon on a plank--both made from parts of Goeben as a farewell gift after our availability.
Thats awesome!!! I recall the sadness I felt as a kid when i read in one of my many battleship encyclopedias that she'd survived so long only to be scrapped...
Ive always wanted to collect bits n pieces of historical ships- like buying teak from the NJ... I started my collection with a small electrical panel cover from the USS Plainveiw a couple years ago. I dont think ill explain the means of obtaining it in an open forum but... ;)
You are exactly right. I've been thinking that for years now and am not surprised you recognize the grand strategic and historical incluence Goeben and Breslau had in their time. Hard to name a single ship (Goeben mostly, of course) with a more significant historical influence. Brought the Turks into the war (German successes on land in August 1914 were important, too -- perhaps necessary but insufficient). Split the Triple Entente, isolating Russia, creating conditions that led to the Bolshevik Revolution. In sum, brought German victory in WWI as whole to within an ace of success.
Well, Germany was only half there in 1963. It would have been sporting of the British to accept the gift in lieu of Germany. She would have looked good under the old John Brown crane at Clydebank.
Quite possibly the only ship of the Imperial German Navy to receive a NATO Pennant Number: B70. Still in reserve when Turkey joined.
Not a Navy thing, but deserving of a toast.
Here's to Sam Whittemore, aged 78, who on this day in 1775, took on 700 Brits
https://youtu.be/rDo6x0MhERE
"Get off my lawn!"
^ Well, that was narrated enthusiastically. Thanks for posting it, SGT.
Sam was clearly a stud in multiple ways.
Goeben outgunned Russia's predreadnoughts individually bit the Russians had anticipated a dreadnought arriving in the Black Sea and had drilled in a technique which allowed them to share fire control data across the line of battle, and permit four ships to fire as a unit. They gave Goeben a lot of trouble using this method, as can be seen from the combat record.
"Russians had anticipated a dreadnought arriving in the Black Sea and had drilled in a technique which allowed them to share fire control data across the line of battle, and permit four ships to fire as a unit."
That's interesting. Do you haveca source that gives detail?
My takeaway here is that there is huge value in having the right assets available for foreign military sales to improve our diplomacy and strength abroad. FFG-7 has proven a massive success in those terms. LCS has not. Right now we are only really providing hordes of patrol boats under 35 meters (115 feet). We could easily be a leader in missile boats and smaller corvettes. Look at MUSV/Overlord ships and think a smidge bigger. We could also translate our UUV work into viable manned mini subs. When you wonder why we don't have a foreign buyer for FRCs consider they can all just buy the original 43m Damen model for much, much cheaper. Everyone hates aluminum, but the reality is this is a material our shipbuilding industry has mastered. It and waterjets provide more speed, range, and shallower draft for smaller vessels such they can use the littoral terrain.
We should also look at developing a smaller, high speed connector as no one in the west has one smaller than an LCAC (or the French thingy). I'd also say the Birdon concept for LSM probably plays closest to leveraging our offshore building capacity.
Okay, I am rambling......
The FFG I served on between 1982-1986 is still active in Polish Navy.
Do not dismiss Russia’s contribution to the Allied war effort.
It is quite possible Paris might have fallen in 1914 has it not been for the russsian invasion of east prussia
Likewise the Russians inflicted serious blows on Austria in 1914 and 1916. Even after the fall of the Czar the Russians under Kerensky held down large numbers of German forces. This is why I get so mad at the neocon geniuses in DC who casually dismiss Russia as a gas tank with nuclear weapons.
I don't think the CDR was dismissing Russa's contribution. He was making a SLOC comment.
True. But I just wanted to give a shout out to Imperial Russia for saving France.
One thing we got right....
https://youtu.be/b0E9kTdYBXM?si=WzGOY2JDcV1v58I7
(and scored a large ship drydock in Galveston...)
https://www.gulfcopper.com/services/dry-docking/
Problem with Gulf Copper Galveston is the Port owns the land the yard is on (long term lease), and neither party is willing to pay for improvements to piers at that location. However, Ma Drydock, as she’s affectionately known, can be moved.
The seismic company I once worked for had a facility just up Todd road, where the A&M sea camp is now.
Pelican Island is quite the rust belt now.
Where on the Gulf could that dock be moved to?
Dont think Mobile has the room. Dont think Tampa does either. The Avondale property is a no go. Pascagoula has bigger fish to fry. Brownsville I guess.
This is where MARAD is stupid. They should facilitate keeping that dock there, and develop the area more for ship maintenance.
Its not like there is one of the world's largest ports nearby or anything.
When I was a docent on the Texas some years back, there was talk then about towing her to then still open Avondale (but not for long), as that was nearest place that could take her since Todd Shipyard had closed.
The USN put the nix on it, since they (rightly) deemed she would probably sink on the journey. It sounded like Niagara Falls back in after steering with the inrush of water from all the leaks.
I'm sure there was more than a little angst just getting her down to Galveston.
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/news/battleship-2.html
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/64/2019/09/dej1_v1v0aaxxgo.jpg
So, it was a fight then to get a large dock somewhere back in the western Gulf.
And, now its going to be a wasted effort?
https://drydockmagazine.com/a-battle-to-drydock-the-battleship-uss-texas/
Keeping this meander at least somewhat FbF-ish...
The Sammy B was built up the bay at Brown (of Brown and Root. George Brown was LBJ's owner...) Shipbuilding in Houston
https://www.usni.org/sites/default/files/styles/embed_medium/public/NHN-NH-SO-22%201b.jpg?itok=t8uN9XYA
And you can go to the end of Todd Road and visit the USS Stewart...
https://www.galvestonnavalmuseum.com/copy-of-uss-cavalla
And Cavalla... Which sank the Shokaku.
I was down there last week. One of the officers in my reserve sister unit works at Gulf Copper. That's how I got to see Texas, as well as Mandatory Fun at the Galveston Naval Museum. I can say I held morning quarters on the forecastle of a battleship!
To get a ship that age and leaky over to yard, they filled the leaking blisters with foam, that had to be cut off with high pressure water, as well as replacement. They also found that there is a 2 foot distance away from rivets to weld.
I agree with you on the foolishness, but the perverse incentives in modern politics means that anyone with a lick of sanity cannot obtain the status needed to effect policies that would include supporting a site like GC in Galveston.
"They also found that there is a 2 foot distance away from rivets to weld."
Talk about a skill shortage...Try to find a gang that can buck rivets!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVjS1DsqYvo
more here...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qRXzSxSu_Q
(OCD me found the ship...)
https://www.poheritage.com/Upload/Mimsy/Media/factsheet/94083ORION-1935pdf.pdf
How does she look? I havent seen her in over 10 years...
Also, re: the Glasgow vids...
Lessons Unlearned...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mboVWEdDhx4
Quite nice on the hull. Topside work started this week, and the weather decks needed it.
Years back, there was the unfortunate period when the then rotting wood was pulled up, and concrete was laid on the deck...
The wood was chipped off and wood relaid in her last yard period before this one, but it was painted and in bad shape even 13 years ago.
Here is an opportunity to put the migrants to work!
"All I want to see is assholes elbows and holystones!"
https://youtube.com/shorts/CIj_fah0StI?si=3c7_kHw7LMVhgz4Z
An impressive legacy of service under two flags - if only the Turks could have preserved her like the Greeks did Averof: https://museumships.us/greece/georgios-averof
Full bore indeed. As a matter of note: I have a piece of Goeben. When my last command was in the Med in 1983, we were sent to Golcuk Naval Shipyard for an upkeep availability. Good yard with hard working people. I received a miniature brass cannon on a plank--both made from parts of Goeben as a farewell gift after our availability.
Thats awesome!!! I recall the sadness I felt as a kid when i read in one of my many battleship encyclopedias that she'd survived so long only to be scrapped...
Ive always wanted to collect bits n pieces of historical ships- like buying teak from the NJ... I started my collection with a small electrical panel cover from the USS Plainveiw a couple years ago. I dont think ill explain the means of obtaining it in an open forum but... ;)
You are exactly right. I've been thinking that for years now and am not surprised you recognize the grand strategic and historical incluence Goeben and Breslau had in their time. Hard to name a single ship (Goeben mostly, of course) with a more significant historical influence. Brought the Turks into the war (German successes on land in August 1914 were important, too -- perhaps necessary but insufficient). Split the Triple Entente, isolating Russia, creating conditions that led to the Bolshevik Revolution. In sum, brought German victory in WWI as whole to within an ace of success.
Influence, I meant. Any word other than "impact"! Not sure exactly what "incluence" they had -- presume it must've been enormous!
Well, Germany was only half there in 1963. It would have been sporting of the British to accept the gift in lieu of Germany. She would have looked good under the old John Brown crane at Clydebank.
Read Dick Van Der Vat’s ‘The Ship That Changed The Word’ for a good popular account of Goeben’s glory.