If only they had made a run for it. They would have been of enormous help to the British Mediterranean Fleet, and the total loss at sea of all the ships would have left the situation as it wound up being.
1942, not the first time to see French ships sink in Toulon. In 1793 a young Napoleon took part in the Siege of Toulon where the French Republicans tried to take the city and fleet back from the Royalists and the British & Spanish occupiers. When it looked like the Republicans would be victorious, the Brits and Spanish destroyed much of the Naval shore facilities and some, but not all the French ships under their control. It is believed that Spanish treachery saved some of the French ships. Toulon catapulted Napoleon on to bigger things. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_fleet_at_the_siege_of_Toulon
Does history record the name of the French officer? He deserves his own FBF. Those ships could have been muchlee used by the Brits in the Med, and I'm sure the aerial photos by the RAF the day after caused much angst in London. But you have to admit the French did make nice looking ships. BZ to Laborde.
I attended a school ship, the Training Ship Mercury (Hamble, England), 1966 - 1968. She wasn’t scuttled but was saved from the wrecking ball and restored, at the Historic Dockyard Chatham, to her former glory as HMS Gannet.
That's great to hear. School ships to me are a historical curiosity since we don't have those in the Philippines (granted I live in an urban area). Closest thing to a school ship I've heard about are the ships that brought teachers from the US to our shores after the Philippine-American War.
It shows a great deal of resolution on the part of the remaining crew of the French Navy. In this case, since their wish to defend their home was no longer possible, they sank their ships. While I'd hate to loose a home, I'd much rather that happen than have a hated enemy take it.
Five submarines and one ship, a coal fired buoy tender, successfully escaped. Bravo Zulu to the initiative of their commanding officers. The tender had to take on fuel before attempting the escape. Captain Pierre' had some big brass ones.
(text can be cut and pasted into Google Translate if your French is rusty)
After the war, Admiral de Laborde would be tried, convicted and sentenced to death for scuttling the fleet rather than attempting a breakout. His sentence would be commuted to 5 years of imprisonment. Good thing he also wasn't also convicted of trespassing on Versailles grounds. That would have added another 25 years to his imprisonment. (/sarc for last two sentences)
Pétain counted on the rivalry between de Laborde and Admiral of the fleet François Darlan to keep control[citation needed]. Darlan had made been Admiral of the Fleet in 1939.
As a vice-admiral, Laborde was chief of the First Squadron, organised around the battleship Strasbourg. Following the capitulation of France and the rise of Vichy government under Philippe Pétain, Laborde decided to side with the regime, and was made commander of the High Seas Fleet. Pétain counted on using Laborde's dislike of Darlan to make the Fleet easier to manage[citation needed]. The High Seas Fleet was composed of 38 modern units and amounting to a quarter of the total French Navy.[citation needed]
Very antagonistic to the British and to Charles de Gaulle, Laborde promoted a project to re-take Chad[citation needed]. When the Allies invaded the French colonies of North Africa in Operation Torch, he suggested that the French fleet should sail and attack the Allies in retaliation; this proposal was sharply turned down by Gabriel Auphan.[citation needed]
Amidst intrigue, attempted deals and changing loyalties, following invasion of North Africa by the Allies on 7 November 1942, Darlan made a deal with the Allies, ordering French troops to join the allies, which they did[citation needed]. Pétain stripped Darlan of his office and ordered resistance in North Africa, but was ignored. In response, Nazi troops occupied the free zone, but paused outside Toulon, the base where most of the remaining French ships were moored. On 11 November, Darlan responded by ordering Laborde join him with the fleet in North Africa[citation needed]. Auphan, who had succeeded Darlan as head of the navy, also privately urged him to join the Allies. Laborde rejected the appeals, insisting that he would only do so on a direct order from Petain.[citation needed]
On 27 November 1942 Laborde ordered the scuttling of the French fleet in Toulon to prevent his ships from falling in German, Italian or British hands[citation needed]. By the time the Germans tried to seize the ships, virtually all had been scuttled, sabotaged or had escaped.[citation needed]
After Liberation, during the Épuration légale, Laborde was sentenced to death by the Haute Cour de Justice (France) [fr] for treason and for failing to save the fleet by allowing it to defect to the Allies. His sentence was later commuted to life imprisonment, and he was pardoned in 1951.[2]
Great story, wonderful use of germaness against the germans. I do not agree, however, with your characterization of german martial prowess, even as I do with your assessment of the french. And especially not of the Waffen SS at that point in the war, nor do I think they were the juggernaut they were later claimec to be, especially by people who's own lackluster performance was explained away by, "The Waffen SS! If only we'd been fighting the Heer!"
WWII was the first war where the vanquished were encouraged to write the history of the war. And wow, did the german generals engage in some brilliant apologetics, aided by fanbois like Leddel-Hart, Fuller, and DePuy, among others. Subsequent schoalrship has taken quite a bit of the shine off that glossy dross.
“Do you have your paperwork?” Beautiful. In our parlance, the Controlled Industrial Area. Some day, remind me to tell you the story of the night in which I bulled my way into the holy-of-holies inner area where PHNSY was decommissioning a submarine’s reactor. All without getting shot by the Marine guard.
eScape Goat was to be the name of the Goat Island Skiff I was building, a task which was terminated when I realized the true state of my lower back. Oh, well. We march on. Slowly.
PHNSY. I was standing duty as the Industrial Watch Officer, and so responsible for the safe operation of the shipyard’s repair operations after normal working hours. We were de-fueling the reactor of one of the old S boats, so there was an inner “keep” of barbed wire ten foot high fence immediately around that work site. I was told that a fire alarm had tripped in the de-fueling enclosure, which had a strict list of those allowed entrance and a 24/7/365 armed Marine guard to enforce the list. None of the Industrial Watch Officers were on the list. When I got to the enclosure gate, the alarm was confirmed, and since I was, by definition, the shipyard commander’s on-scene rep, I demanded entrance because I knew that neither the Production Officer nor my CO had ever in the past accepted an answer that began with “so and so told me….”. IOW, if you hadn’t seen and touched a problem, you hadn’t done your job. After I explained that to the senior civilian manager present, he let me in. We checked everything out, and it turned out to be a false alarm. Good. Problem solved….I thought. The next day I was called into the CO’s office. Apparently he had gotten a very terse phone call from the SEA-08 side of the house. He understood why I had taken the action I had, but never. do. it. again. Yes, sir.
Thanks, Alan. Too bad about the eScape Goat. I googled "16' Goat Island Skiff", looked like great fun. My kayaking days might be over...can't find anyone to partner with, won't go out alone anymore after getting swamped by some yahoo who keep going...couldn't get back in the kayak by myself, the river had alligators. /// Is there anything better than a boss who looks out for you when you do your duty and the SHTF? I was so fortunate to work for many such people.
I will never know if excused me to higher authority or if they just chalked it up to my being a stupid non-nuke skimmer. At the time it felt like a low volume chewing out in slow motion. But then, he was not exactly personable. Literally water under the bridge at this point.
Have known a nuke or two. Never met a dumb one, few were personable, as I think that it is part of their nature to have some disdain for non-nukes & skimmers. It's just something to shrug off.
You'd have to be heartless not to pity the average French sailor in WWII when you couple this sad tale with the tragic events at Mers-el-Kébir in 1940.
If only they had made a run for it. They would have been of enormous help to the British Mediterranean Fleet, and the total loss at sea of all the ships would have left the situation as it wound up being.
But even the total loss at sea would at least have them go out in a blaze of glory, giving the French nation an act to be proud of.
1942, not the first time to see French ships sink in Toulon. In 1793 a young Napoleon took part in the Siege of Toulon where the French Republicans tried to take the city and fleet back from the Royalists and the British & Spanish occupiers. When it looked like the Republicans would be victorious, the Brits and Spanish destroyed much of the Naval shore facilities and some, but not all the French ships under their control. It is believed that Spanish treachery saved some of the French ships. Toulon catapulted Napoleon on to bigger things. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_fleet_at_the_siege_of_Toulon
Thank you, I did not know that!
Does history record the name of the French officer? He deserves his own FBF. Those ships could have been muchlee used by the Brits in the Med, and I'm sure the aerial photos by the RAF the day after caused much angst in London. But you have to admit the French did make nice looking ships. BZ to Laborde.
> 1 school ship (scuttled)
The children's cheers must have been deafening.
I attended a school ship, the Training Ship Mercury (Hamble, England), 1966 - 1968. She wasn’t scuttled but was saved from the wrecking ball and restored, at the Historic Dockyard Chatham, to her former glory as HMS Gannet.
That's great to hear. School ships to me are a historical curiosity since we don't have those in the Philippines (granted I live in an urban area). Closest thing to a school ship I've heard about are the ships that brought teachers from the US to our shores after the Philippine-American War.
Thanks for the historical refresher. It seems odd to have the fleet at the pier with all the other things happening.
Vive la France!
Deeper thoughts to follow.
It shows a great deal of resolution on the part of the remaining crew of the French Navy. In this case, since their wish to defend their home was no longer possible, they sank their ships. While I'd hate to loose a home, I'd much rather that happen than have a hated enemy take it.
Five submarines and one ship, a coal fired buoy tender, successfully escaped. Bravo Zulu to the initiative of their commanding officers. The tender had to take on fuel before attempting the escape. Captain Pierre' had some big brass ones.
http://www.meritemaritime-var.fr/IMG/pdf/evasion%20leonor%20fresnel.pdf
(text can be cut and pasted into Google Translate if your French is rusty)
After the war, Admiral de Laborde would be tried, convicted and sentenced to death for scuttling the fleet rather than attempting a breakout. His sentence would be commuted to 5 years of imprisonment. Good thing he also wasn't also convicted of trespassing on Versailles grounds. That would have added another 25 years to his imprisonment. (/sarc for last two sentences)
https://www.gettyimages.fr/detail/photo-d%27actualit%C3%A9/de-laborde-was-accused-of-purposely-sinking-the-photo-dactualit%C3%A9/106504721
the wiki version: He was anti-Brit
Scuttling of the Fleet
Pétain counted on the rivalry between de Laborde and Admiral of the fleet François Darlan to keep control[citation needed]. Darlan had made been Admiral of the Fleet in 1939.
As a vice-admiral, Laborde was chief of the First Squadron, organised around the battleship Strasbourg. Following the capitulation of France and the rise of Vichy government under Philippe Pétain, Laborde decided to side with the regime, and was made commander of the High Seas Fleet. Pétain counted on using Laborde's dislike of Darlan to make the Fleet easier to manage[citation needed]. The High Seas Fleet was composed of 38 modern units and amounting to a quarter of the total French Navy.[citation needed]
Very antagonistic to the British and to Charles de Gaulle, Laborde promoted a project to re-take Chad[citation needed]. When the Allies invaded the French colonies of North Africa in Operation Torch, he suggested that the French fleet should sail and attack the Allies in retaliation; this proposal was sharply turned down by Gabriel Auphan.[citation needed]
Amidst intrigue, attempted deals and changing loyalties, following invasion of North Africa by the Allies on 7 November 1942, Darlan made a deal with the Allies, ordering French troops to join the allies, which they did[citation needed]. Pétain stripped Darlan of his office and ordered resistance in North Africa, but was ignored. In response, Nazi troops occupied the free zone, but paused outside Toulon, the base where most of the remaining French ships were moored. On 11 November, Darlan responded by ordering Laborde join him with the fleet in North Africa[citation needed]. Auphan, who had succeeded Darlan as head of the navy, also privately urged him to join the Allies. Laborde rejected the appeals, insisting that he would only do so on a direct order from Petain.[citation needed]
On 27 November 1942 Laborde ordered the scuttling of the French fleet in Toulon to prevent his ships from falling in German, Italian or British hands[citation needed]. By the time the Germans tried to seize the ships, virtually all had been scuttled, sabotaged or had escaped.[citation needed]
After Liberation, during the Épuration légale, Laborde was sentenced to death by the Haute Cour de Justice (France) [fr] for treason and for failing to save the fleet by allowing it to defect to the Allies. His sentence was later commuted to life imprisonment, and he was pardoned in 1951.[2]
Great story, wonderful use of germaness against the germans. I do not agree, however, with your characterization of german martial prowess, even as I do with your assessment of the french. And especially not of the Waffen SS at that point in the war, nor do I think they were the juggernaut they were later claimec to be, especially by people who's own lackluster performance was explained away by, "The Waffen SS! If only we'd been fighting the Heer!"
WWII was the first war where the vanquished were encouraged to write the history of the war. And wow, did the german generals engage in some brilliant apologetics, aided by fanbois like Leddel-Hart, Fuller, and DePuy, among others. Subsequent schoalrship has taken quite a bit of the shine off that glossy dross.
42 the SS was better than in 39. But they definitely get their rep from 1. A handful of units, and 2. Propaganda.
“Do you have your paperwork?” Beautiful. In our parlance, the Controlled Industrial Area. Some day, remind me to tell you the story of the night in which I bulled my way into the holy-of-holies inner area where PHNSY was decommissioning a submarine’s reactor. All without getting shot by the Marine guard.
Reminder. Please do and also the eScape Goat.
eScape Goat was to be the name of the Goat Island Skiff I was building, a task which was terminated when I realized the true state of my lower back. Oh, well. We march on. Slowly.
PHNSY. I was standing duty as the Industrial Watch Officer, and so responsible for the safe operation of the shipyard’s repair operations after normal working hours. We were de-fueling the reactor of one of the old S boats, so there was an inner “keep” of barbed wire ten foot high fence immediately around that work site. I was told that a fire alarm had tripped in the de-fueling enclosure, which had a strict list of those allowed entrance and a 24/7/365 armed Marine guard to enforce the list. None of the Industrial Watch Officers were on the list. When I got to the enclosure gate, the alarm was confirmed, and since I was, by definition, the shipyard commander’s on-scene rep, I demanded entrance because I knew that neither the Production Officer nor my CO had ever in the past accepted an answer that began with “so and so told me….”. IOW, if you hadn’t seen and touched a problem, you hadn’t done your job. After I explained that to the senior civilian manager present, he let me in. We checked everything out, and it turned out to be a false alarm. Good. Problem solved….I thought. The next day I was called into the CO’s office. Apparently he had gotten a very terse phone call from the SEA-08 side of the house. He understood why I had taken the action I had, but never. do. it. again. Yes, sir.
Thanks, Alan. Too bad about the eScape Goat. I googled "16' Goat Island Skiff", looked like great fun. My kayaking days might be over...can't find anyone to partner with, won't go out alone anymore after getting swamped by some yahoo who keep going...couldn't get back in the kayak by myself, the river had alligators. /// Is there anything better than a boss who looks out for you when you do your duty and the SHTF? I was so fortunate to work for many such people.
I will never know if excused me to higher authority or if they just chalked it up to my being a stupid non-nuke skimmer. At the time it felt like a low volume chewing out in slow motion. But then, he was not exactly personable. Literally water under the bridge at this point.
Have known a nuke or two. Never met a dumb one, few were personable, as I think that it is part of their nature to have some disdain for non-nukes & skimmers. It's just something to shrug off.
Casablanca comes to mind.
Something beautiful in the French episode of FBF taking the form of an especially creative surrender
When I was 6th Fleet Liaison in Toulon, I passed thru that gate many times. Always had my papers😎
Fascinating tidbit of history... thank you!
You'd have to be heartless not to pity the average French sailor in WWII when you couple this sad tale with the tragic events at Mers-el-Kébir in 1940.
For sale: one French navy fleet, scuttled in place, not a shot fired.
It appears the good Admiral hated the British and Germans equally.
Found this documentary on one of the subs that escaped and its role later in Corsica. Auto-translate subtitles work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_W5dn6E0GQ