As someone who had an aircraft carrier billet and could run across the pier to the Samuel Gompers, and as someone who had a SIMA Mayport billet and running on to the Perry's, I whole heartedly agree. Can't comment personally on floating drydocks. Still, none of those are sexy so you will find little support in the five-sided pleasure palace of Mordor. Kinda like the AF being led essentially by fighter jocks.
6.5 bottles of catsup----but how many of hot sauce? More seriously, when we say "The Pentagon" nowadays we actually mean the current administration and its hirelings. That bunch very rarely, if ever, reflect what the professional armed services truly need, want or think. Of course we need (have needed for some time) a coherent strategy upon which to base procurement as well as deployments, forward basing decisions etc. Unfortunately development and implementation of such strategy is under the control of "The Pentagon".
Never elevated to Chief. The two really bad ones I had were moved to areas where they couldn't do any damage. I was also at one command where we had two Chiefs go UA. That was a fun command where the Goat Locker was interesting.
I dunno...if I were mess caterer and deployed to Westpac it'd be 6.5 bottles of Jufran Banana Ketchup or 1 bottle of patis. Jufran is best served at room temperature when it begins to fizz. I'll admit that I was never reelected as mess caterer.
I would say build the Burkes and the Constellation Frigates already under way - expand the program. They are proven hull designs and systems and are modern. Kick it in the ass and get the missiles produced to put in the VLS tubes. Of course, we then have to discuss manning the ships we produced. Hopefully we can stop all the DIE BS and persuade kids this is a good avenue. Lots of kids in the south and midwest still want to see the world and it is a lot easier on a ship!
Arming the LPDs will also, possibly, free up some escorts if they can provide some defense for themselves. I'd also say this would meet the Marines' requirements and Congressional mandates on the number of amphibs.
I would remind you the WHOLE saying is "a jack of all trades is a master of none, but always better than a master of one!"
We should at least go with a one-power standard. We should not have fewer ships than our primary enemy (sorry, "pacing threat"). Looks like we need to get busy building...
DOD states that “the PLAN is the largest navy in the world with a battle force of approximately
340 platforms, including major surface combatants, submarines, ocean-going amphibious ships,
mine warfare ships, aircraft carriers, and fleet auxiliaries.... This figure does not include
approximately 85 patrol combatants and craft that carry anti-ship cruise missiles (ASCM). The
PLAN’s overall battle force is expected to grow to 400 ships by 2025 and 440 ships by 2030.
Much of this growth will be in major surface combatants.”
I think it was Stalin who said something about quantity being a quality all of its own. The PLAN appears to be reading that book. I would also opine that the USN also needs an anti-ship missile with the range, speed, and maneuverability to out-do the pacing threat.
Thinking about the grim numbers presented for the PRC fleet versus the US fleet:
I work international Oil & Gas pipeline construction. One thing common across all these projects is that under no circumstance will we buy Chinese steel, nor anything else of criticality nor required reliability. We know that the bulk of the PRC QA/QC programs are "whatever we can get away with." These projects have even included some of the 'belt & road' initiatives undertaken by the PRC, where they are even a significant equity partner. Meanwhile, domestically we have seen major recalls of building products imported from China as it was discovered that they lied about specs, product content, material grade, etc.
Which makes me wonder about the quality, the reliability, the durability of the PRC fleet. Is there cause to think that their version of their massive military-industrial complex is any different from or better than the rest of their fabricated goods? The US M-I complex is beridden with quality issues and overruns galore: should we expect that the bureaucratic Marxists are any better at it?
Perhaps. Certainly there is a much greater scope for punishment deterrence in the PRC system than is allowed in the US version. One of the untold strengths of a bureaucracy, though, is the ability to hide within one, and avoid the descending wrath. These are Marxists, after all - no one takes an individual initiative. It's all collectively - bureaucratically - agreed upon. Cheers!
You may recall from the Soviet era that "quality control" was poor in the civilian sector but much better in the military sector (with the proviso that much Soviet military equipment was deliberately built simple enough for Central Asian conscripts to operate). One suspects that the Chinese military has higher QC than companies that manufacture for export.
That aside, what evidence is there that Chinese ships are crap? How many days a year do they spend at sea? (Genuinely curious, I do not know.) If their ships are of poor quality then they should mostly be sitting in port, right? And if stuff breaks, how fast can they fix it? We certainly do not have a competitive advantage in repair speed. Better to have lower quality stuff you can fix quickly than higher quality stuff that you can't fix quickly?
The manning shortfalls are the elephant in the room. Big Navy has zero idea how to fix this either. Programs that had historic attrition are being told to loosen the standards and keep people that ordinarily would be shitcanned. Recruitment will be missed by up to 16K this FY. Navy was told to triage with priority on the nuclear manning. Nuke manning will barely squeak by.
My son-in-law was a SeaBee turned career recruiter in Oregon for his final 7 years of service. He was very good at recruiting. He used to tell me of how badly his hands were tied. Before retirement, he was shifted over to officer recruiting. He had about a half dozen males with STEM degrees as likely candidates to be Navy Nukes. He was not allowed to recruit them until the two quotas for Hispanic females were filled. Those men lost interest (wisely) and sought careers somewhere else. My own experience was different and far better (mostly). At age 17 I was a high school drop out and after begging my parents for permission to join got stellar treatment at the AFEES station in New Orleans on 17 November 1965. When they found out that I was a volunteer, I got head of the line privileges for the exams and the physical. I was wholly unprepared for the Digital Rectal Exam, though. But there was no lash, and drat...I was too young for the rum. Glad I got that D.R.E. out of the way. That one lasted me until my commissioning physical in 1982. But damn if that wasn't brutal. That Navy PA CWO4 had fingers the size of kielbasa and hairy knuckles to boot. But I was lucky. My screenings were only ever for grunt, deck level jobs. I had it easy.
Yep. Can’t make it through the program, no problem, lower the scores and increase the remediation rates. Can’t advance in rate, lower HYT. Get caught smoking the devils lettuce? Slap on the wrist and go back to your division space.
Mixed feelings on HYT. When competent people hit HYT and the score to advance is 999.99? Then maybe a HYT waiver might not be a bad thing as long as their overall performance is actually above 4.0
I've got mixed feelings on that too. A nuc E6 who can't make chief...might because they've got some anger management issues (common in ELTs) or because they are an un motivated dirtbag. It did bother me a bit the disrespect an experienced first class got. Might not be a hot runner, but they generally knew how to do maintenance. You do need some of those folks.
I bet we could gather members of the front porch and come up with a better study and strategy to take before Congress. What makes me think this? Three letters... LCS.
There are also 1.7 bottles of Texas Pete next to the catsup.
Now your study has value!
"We cannot properly build and maintain 296 right now. Why should the American public give us more ships when we can’t take care of the ones we have?"
THIS.
And howz about some money for SIMA's, Tenders, and floating drydocks?
As someone who had an aircraft carrier billet and could run across the pier to the Samuel Gompers, and as someone who had a SIMA Mayport billet and running on to the Perry's, I whole heartedly agree. Can't comment personally on floating drydocks. Still, none of those are sexy so you will find little support in the five-sided pleasure palace of Mordor. Kinda like the AF being led essentially by fighter jocks.
6.5 bottles of catsup----but how many of hot sauce? More seriously, when we say "The Pentagon" nowadays we actually mean the current administration and its hirelings. That bunch very rarely, if ever, reflect what the professional armed services truly need, want or think. Of course we need (have needed for some time) a coherent strategy upon which to base procurement as well as deployments, forward basing decisions etc. Unfortunately development and implementation of such strategy is under the control of "The Pentagon".
Catsup? You jest. At the flag level it’s Grey Poupon.
When I was a JO on my first ship our SuppO received a memo from XO (piece o' work)
"Subj Ice Cream Toppings
Cook reports out of butterscotch today, out of chocolate last night.
You will establish high/low limits for ice cream toppings in the Wardroom Pantry"
This on a broke-dick steam ship. A very SWO moment.
Gee, I dunno'. Seems like he identified a problem and applied a geometric solution. He found the duplicate key!
Oh he "identified a 'problem ' " alright. The horror of having to eat ice cream without butterscotch!!!!!!!!!!
Believe me we had no lack of problems requiring attention; a few of them even more severe than lack of ice cream toppings
Surely he was smart enough to blame the Chief's for the unresolved problems!
Dunno bout you, but "blaming the Chief" never seemed like a good idea to me.
I never even blamed my useless E-7, much less a real Chief.
Never elevated to Chief. The two really bad ones I had were moved to areas where they couldn't do any damage. I was also at one command where we had two Chiefs go UA. That was a fun command where the Goat Locker was interesting.
My MMCS must have been assigned to you guys after he left us.
I dunno...if I were mess caterer and deployed to Westpac it'd be 6.5 bottles of Jufran Banana Ketchup or 1 bottle of patis. Jufran is best served at room temperature when it begins to fizz. I'll admit that I was never reelected as mess caterer.
https://www.aboutfilipinofood.com/wp-content/uploads/Store_Shelf_Jufran_Banana_Ketchup.jpg
I would say build the Burkes and the Constellation Frigates already under way - expand the program. They are proven hull designs and systems and are modern. Kick it in the ass and get the missiles produced to put in the VLS tubes. Of course, we then have to discuss manning the ships we produced. Hopefully we can stop all the DIE BS and persuade kids this is a good avenue. Lots of kids in the south and midwest still want to see the world and it is a lot easier on a ship!
We should also build the LPDs and restore the VLS cells that were in the original design or add the BAE Adaptable Deck Launcher. These ships can be the jack of all trades that we need with F-35Bs, Marines, and missile magazines for offense and defense. https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2021/01/us-navy-looks-to-arm-lpd-17-amphibious-vessels-with-long-range-missiles/
Arming the LPDs will also, possibly, free up some escorts if they can provide some defense for themselves. I'd also say this would meet the Marines' requirements and Congressional mandates on the number of amphibs.
I would remind you the WHOLE saying is "a jack of all trades is a master of none, but always better than a master of one!"
We should at least go with a one-power standard. We should not have fewer ships than our primary enemy (sorry, "pacing threat"). Looks like we need to get busy building...
DOD states that “the PLAN is the largest navy in the world with a battle force of approximately
340 platforms, including major surface combatants, submarines, ocean-going amphibious ships,
mine warfare ships, aircraft carriers, and fleet auxiliaries.... This figure does not include
approximately 85 patrol combatants and craft that carry anti-ship cruise missiles (ASCM). The
PLAN’s overall battle force is expected to grow to 400 ships by 2025 and 440 ships by 2030.
Much of this growth will be in major surface combatants.”
I think it was Stalin who said something about quantity being a quality all of its own. The PLAN appears to be reading that book. I would also opine that the USN also needs an anti-ship missile with the range, speed, and maneuverability to out-do the pacing threat.
Thinking about the grim numbers presented for the PRC fleet versus the US fleet:
I work international Oil & Gas pipeline construction. One thing common across all these projects is that under no circumstance will we buy Chinese steel, nor anything else of criticality nor required reliability. We know that the bulk of the PRC QA/QC programs are "whatever we can get away with." These projects have even included some of the 'belt & road' initiatives undertaken by the PRC, where they are even a significant equity partner. Meanwhile, domestically we have seen major recalls of building products imported from China as it was discovered that they lied about specs, product content, material grade, etc.
Which makes me wonder about the quality, the reliability, the durability of the PRC fleet. Is there cause to think that their version of their massive military-industrial complex is any different from or better than the rest of their fabricated goods? The US M-I complex is beridden with quality issues and overruns galore: should we expect that the bureaucratic Marxists are any better at it?
I suspect they're slightly better at correcting, or looking like they're correcting, a known problem than we are.
But it wouldn't surprise me that the admirals are worried their new shiny ships won't function as advertised.
Perhaps. Certainly there is a much greater scope for punishment deterrence in the PRC system than is allowed in the US version. One of the untold strengths of a bureaucracy, though, is the ability to hide within one, and avoid the descending wrath. These are Marxists, after all - no one takes an individual initiative. It's all collectively - bureaucratically - agreed upon. Cheers!
^ "...under no circumstance will we buy Chinese steel, nor anything else of criticality nor required reliability."
Maybe. Look what Canada is doing:
" Canadian government doesn’t scale back on Chinese steel in new navy patrol ships.
Steel for Arctic and Offshore Patrol Ships was bought from European suppliers, with about 17 per cent of that being purchased from China.
Author of the article:
David Pugliese • Ottawa Citizen
Published Apr 04, 2023"
https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/canadian-government-doesnt-scale-back-on-chinese-steel-in-new-navy-patrol-ships
You may recall from the Soviet era that "quality control" was poor in the civilian sector but much better in the military sector (with the proviso that much Soviet military equipment was deliberately built simple enough for Central Asian conscripts to operate). One suspects that the Chinese military has higher QC than companies that manufacture for export.
That aside, what evidence is there that Chinese ships are crap? How many days a year do they spend at sea? (Genuinely curious, I do not know.) If their ships are of poor quality then they should mostly be sitting in port, right? And if stuff breaks, how fast can they fix it? We certainly do not have a competitive advantage in repair speed. Better to have lower quality stuff you can fix quickly than higher quality stuff that you can't fix quickly?
Use the contents of some of those VLS cells on the EPA.
Please add #4; Properly man all at-sea billets.
The Navy was admitting to 9,000 gapped type II billets last October.
Build all the boats you want and then mothball 'em cause you ain't got the boots to man them.
The manning shortfalls are the elephant in the room. Big Navy has zero idea how to fix this either. Programs that had historic attrition are being told to loosen the standards and keep people that ordinarily would be shitcanned. Recruitment will be missed by up to 16K this FY. Navy was told to triage with priority on the nuclear manning. Nuke manning will barely squeak by.
My son-in-law was a SeaBee turned career recruiter in Oregon for his final 7 years of service. He was very good at recruiting. He used to tell me of how badly his hands were tied. Before retirement, he was shifted over to officer recruiting. He had about a half dozen males with STEM degrees as likely candidates to be Navy Nukes. He was not allowed to recruit them until the two quotas for Hispanic females were filled. Those men lost interest (wisely) and sought careers somewhere else. My own experience was different and far better (mostly). At age 17 I was a high school drop out and after begging my parents for permission to join got stellar treatment at the AFEES station in New Orleans on 17 November 1965. When they found out that I was a volunteer, I got head of the line privileges for the exams and the physical. I was wholly unprepared for the Digital Rectal Exam, though. But there was no lash, and drat...I was too young for the rum. Glad I got that D.R.E. out of the way. That one lasted me until my commissioning physical in 1982. But damn if that wasn't brutal. That Navy PA CWO4 had fingers the size of kielbasa and hairy knuckles to boot. But I was lucky. My screenings were only ever for grunt, deck level jobs. I had it easy.
" ...keep people that ordinarily would be shitcanned" 'cause that's always a good idea!
Especially on a floating Chernobyl.
Yep. Can’t make it through the program, no problem, lower the scores and increase the remediation rates. Can’t advance in rate, lower HYT. Get caught smoking the devils lettuce? Slap on the wrist and go back to your division space.
Mixed feelings on HYT. When competent people hit HYT and the score to advance is 999.99? Then maybe a HYT waiver might not be a bad thing as long as their overall performance is actually above 4.0
(Saw that for AME-2 and PR-2, PR-1.)
I've got mixed feelings on that too. A nuc E6 who can't make chief...might because they've got some anger management issues (common in ELTs) or because they are an un motivated dirtbag. It did bother me a bit the disrespect an experienced first class got. Might not be a hot runner, but they generally knew how to do maintenance. You do need some of those folks.
I’m talking about E4 over 6, not PO1’s who’s should be able to stay to 20. Oh one more thing.. perform to serve is also ending.
Please see reply to Mr. T.
Too many XYZ Flag Zeroes, not enough ABCs (Arleigh Burke Combatant Ships).
Remember for every ship we build and crew, we need a corresponding increase or mitigation in our GDP.
I bet we could gather members of the front porch and come up with a better study and strategy to take before Congress. What makes me think this? Three letters... LCS.
Navy to Congress: We need more ships!
Congress to Navy: What's your plan to build more ships?
Navy: Build bigger more expensive more capable harder to build harder to maintain ships
Congress: _____________________________________
Late to this party, but gotta ask:
Where are the VLS cells going to come from, that we're welding all over the boats? How many reloads do we have now?