Testify, brother! And let's just keep it punitive, and not delude ourselves into thinking that every group of random humans is culturally ready for western-style parliamentary democracy. Seems to me the same imputed advantages for diversity of plumbing, pigment, and preference applies to governance, too. Meh.
The Brit approach to Afghan management was summarized by some Victorian wag as:
"Butcher and Bolt"
If a tribe raided into civilized India, a punitive expedition would head up country to burn out the offenders. It was diplomacy that even Afghans could understand and brought the peace to a small pat of the area for two generations...
The Talibs weren't that. And we didn't fight that kind of war, nor were we ever going to. Another mistake in our understanding of the enemy. We were fighting a very optional war for us. For them, it was existential. We fought Germany and Japan on an existential level. We haven't done that since, for all that we steamrolled Saddam in the Gulf War 1, we stopped and didn't deliver the coup de grace.
- God what a great observer of life and writer he was
- I was not clear in my posting. The Brits administer the first level of punishment to the offending tribe, then the neighbors complete its destruction as it vanishes without a trace.
- "this tumult of ground is formed by the peaks of the Hindu Kush". Hindu Kush translates from Persian as "Hindu Slayer"
Go ahead, let 'em speak. No one listens to the parents of Tommy Atkins. Certainly not the D.C. elite.
We all served for various reasons, and we all recognize the flaws of our branch of service with its uniformly flawed meritocracy. We all continue to praise and believe in it inspite of its flaws. We trusted our non-rates, our PO's, LPO's, CPO's, DiV-O's, DH's and on up the chain.
Yet, I'd happily bet very few of us trusted the D.C. elite. The ivory tower advisors that have been in nothing but academia, government, or some partisan think-tank while they waited for their party to return to power in the White House.
Go ahead, let 'em speak. No one listens, certainly not the D.C. elite.
Then let's go back into the war on terror that predates 9/11. Let's start with the bombing on the embassy in Lebanon April 18, 1983 and move forward from there. If you want to pick the scabs that is the culture war between the US and Islam, then pick all of them and not just a subset.
Dad was in Iran 76-77 as part of TAFT crew-, training their Navy, reorganizing shipyards, etc. I think some of what he was doing was preparing them for what became our Kidds. He met the Shah many times, and made lots of friends, of which, many didnt survive the revolution. Have many recollections of him cursing at the TV news, the Ayatollah, etc. after getting the news from others he'd served with there...
"This does not mean that [U.S. soldiers] are warmongers. On the contrary, the soldier above all other people prays for peace, for he must suffer and bear the deepest wounds and scars of war. But always in our ears ring the ominous words of Plato, that wisest of all philosophers: "Only the dead have seen the end of war.""-
General of the Army Douglas MacArthur, May 12,1962
Next time anyone says, "You break it, you bought it" when it comes to retaliatory expeditions, can we tell them to shut up?
Testify, brother! And let's just keep it punitive, and not delude ourselves into thinking that every group of random humans is culturally ready for western-style parliamentary democracy. Seems to me the same imputed advantages for diversity of plumbing, pigment, and preference applies to governance, too. Meh.
The Brit approach to Afghan management was summarized by some Victorian wag as:
"Butcher and Bolt"
If a tribe raided into civilized India, a punitive expedition would head up country to burn out the offenders. It was diplomacy that even Afghans could understand and brought the peace to a small pat of the area for two generations...
Certain cultures like that of the Bushido code Imperial Japanese military must literally be fought to extinction.
The Talibs weren't that. And we didn't fight that kind of war, nor were we ever going to. Another mistake in our understanding of the enemy. We were fighting a very optional war for us. For them, it was existential. We fought Germany and Japan on an existential level. We haven't done that since, for all that we steamrolled Saddam in the Gulf War 1, we stopped and didn't deliver the coup de grace.
Bombing market places and killing noncombatants deserves the response of killing the wives and children of the Taliban leadership.
Re, the "Butcher and Bolt": The Story of the Malakand Field Force by Winston Churchill (1898). Here: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/9404/9404-h/9404-h.htm#link2H_PREF
random thoughts:
- God what a great observer of life and writer he was
- I was not clear in my posting. The Brits administer the first level of punishment to the offending tribe, then the neighbors complete its destruction as it vanishes without a trace.
- "this tumult of ground is formed by the peaks of the Hindu Kush". Hindu Kush translates from Persian as "Hindu Slayer"
Go ahead, let 'em speak. No one listens to the parents of Tommy Atkins. Certainly not the D.C. elite.
We all served for various reasons, and we all recognize the flaws of our branch of service with its uniformly flawed meritocracy. We all continue to praise and believe in it inspite of its flaws. We trusted our non-rates, our PO's, LPO's, CPO's, DiV-O's, DH's and on up the chain.
Yet, I'd happily bet very few of us trusted the D.C. elite. The ivory tower advisors that have been in nothing but academia, government, or some partisan think-tank while they waited for their party to return to power in the White House.
Go ahead, let 'em speak. No one listens, certainly not the D.C. elite.
Let's let all the families of the 7057 fallen in the "GWOT" speak.
The whole thing was a fiasco, as Tom Ricks wrote in 2006.
Then let's go back into the war on terror that predates 9/11. Let's start with the bombing on the embassy in Lebanon April 18, 1983 and move forward from there. If you want to pick the scabs that is the culture war between the US and Islam, then pick all of them and not just a subset.
Perhaps if Carter had killed the Ayatollah after the hostages had been taken......
Dad was in Iran 76-77 as part of TAFT crew-, training their Navy, reorganizing shipyards, etc. I think some of what he was doing was preparing them for what became our Kidds. He met the Shah many times, and made lots of friends, of which, many didnt survive the revolution. Have many recollections of him cursing at the TV news, the Ayatollah, etc. after getting the news from others he'd served with there...
Absolutely right. That was another foolish expedition.
The fact that Reagan got out quickly and it didn't make any difference proved how marginal it was to US interests.
"This does not mean that [U.S. soldiers] are warmongers. On the contrary, the soldier above all other people prays for peace, for he must suffer and bear the deepest wounds and scars of war. But always in our ears ring the ominous words of Plato, that wisest of all philosophers: "Only the dead have seen the end of war.""-
General of the Army Douglas MacArthur, May 12,1962
POTATUS says we did great in leaving Afghanistan....
No, he says he did great things in leaving Afghanistan.