Just talking. We are simultaneously sending other messages (can't build ships amongst them) and hearing partner nations in Asia telling us to focus on interests and asking us not to force them to choose. Each international actor in the region (to include our opponents) will have their own definition of acceptable diplomatic and economic outcomes and must be active participants in changing the trajectory of the current state toward a more desirable outcome.
Hell, even thirty-three years ago; from the same wiki entry
"Operation Desert Storm commenced the next day, with the U.S. Navy launching 228 combat aircraft sorties from Midway and Ranger in the Persian Gulf, from Theodore Roosevelt en route to the Gulf, and from John F. Kennedy, Saratoga, and America in the Red Sea. In addition, the Navy launched more than 100 Tomahawk missiles from nine ships in the Mediterranean Sea, the Red Sea, and the Persian Gulf... "
“....the rule of law that is the foundation for a peaceful and stable Indo-Pacific region...”
"....to uphold the global rules-based order."
“Every country should be free to conduct lawful air and maritime operations."
"...striving to realise a free and open international order based on the rule of law and securing regional peace and stability."
I hope the PAO who wrote them gets a Meritorious Service Medal at the very least. But they are only words. I can hear the laughter in Beijing.
You want to get Xi's attention? Slap a 25% tariff on Chinese imports. Close all the Confucius centers. End China's purchase of American farmland. Deport all illegal Chinese immigrants.
If you really want to get his attention, then recognize Taiwan as a sovereign nation or at least threaten to do so. If he says this means war, then so be it. Let us fight it here and now rather than in the future. I don't think Xi will be so eager to gamble.
Dude, don't be so simplistic. China is complicated. Before shooting off at the mouth, do some research.
We can't recognise Taiwan as a sovereign nation because it is not a sovereign nation. It is China. Simply put the "One China" problem is that both governments claim to be the one legitimate government of China.
A better way to deal with China is to take the high road, be the better nation. "Observe good faith and justice towards all nations; cultivate peace and harmony with all.
In the execution of such a plan, nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations, and passionate attachments for others, should be excluded; and that, in place of them, just and amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges towards another a habitual hatred or a habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable, when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur. Hence, frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation, prompted by ill-will and resentment, sometimes impels to war the government, contrary to the best calculations of policy. The government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject; at other times it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations, has been the victim."
I haven't read such fine words as yours since I read the Kellogg Briand Act of 1928 which outlawed war as an instrument of national policy. But as you said I am just a simplistic dude who just hasn't done any research.
Who knew that the Sermon on the Mount was really a blueprint for conducting foreign policy? And all this time I've been reading The Prince by Machiavelli!
"A better way to deal with China is to take the high road, be the better nation." "Observe good faith and justice towards all nations; cultivate peace and harmony with all.
"Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests."
I had thought the sentence "Observe good faith and justice towards all nations; cultivate peace and harmony with all," was so well known that attribution was not required. Sorry. https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/washing.asp
Must admit that my mouth breathing must've fogged up my glasses that day in class...
It was the rest of what you pasted is what I was referring to.
Must say, Chat GPT sounds a bit like 18th century prose.
All that aside, Washington never contemplated our journey....good or ill...to world hegemony.
Nor, when he penned that, did he foresee another world power implacably committed to destroying our wealth and society as payback for what they view as our actions which caused the a "Century of Humiliation".
Not so simply put, Tom. Mao and the Communists prevailed on the mainland of China and the Kuomintang had to evacuate to Formosa. Sun Yat-sen founded what became the KMT in 1894 and the KMT was the government of all China from the collapse of the Qing Dynasty around 1912 until 1949. People can talk about One China, but the fact is that there has been Two China's, 2 "sovereign" nations, since 1949. To say that Taiwan is not a sovereign nation sounds like some Occidental declarative party line talking point. Just my opinion
Most of the people living in Taiwan, have zero interest in re-unifying with the mainland. Like Hong Kong, there's severe cultural clashes between mainland Chinese and those Chinese from places like Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, Kuala Lumpur, Macau, etc. At one time the KMT embraced the One China theories however, recent political defeats and exposures of corruption have laid-bare that any talk of re-unification and preserving the current way of life is non-existent. South Koreans came to this realization over twenty-years ago regarding their relationship with North Korea.
Sadly, twas not always thus. I called on a husband-wife pair of Drs. for many years. He was Cantonese, she Taiwanese. Every year, they visited both countries. He reported that Taiwanese public opinon in the late 90's was almost 50% in favor of re-unification vis a vis "one country, two systems," especially among the younger. He said that the Taiwanese were favorably impressed by how things on gone with Hong Kong after '97. But over the years, sentiment soured as the CCP started re-acquiring some of their old, bad habits as the 21 century progressed. I haven't seen them since the Hong Kong crackdown. One can guess how sentiment in Taiwan was affected by the CCP's treatment of Hong Kong.
One my own takeaways from the Hong Kong crackdown was that in addition to whatever else was true, it was also a signal that the CCP had given up on the idea of a peaceful re-unification with Taiwan. So they saw no downside to taking the velvet glove off of the iron fist.
It's all ridiculous semantics... Taiwan is a defined piece of land that has its own government. Its not a territory or property of anyone. Its self governing. Its a soverign nation... And it really is that simple!!! The fact that we dont recognize them as a nation is absurd and cowardly. (BTW, when we sold the Kidds, where did the check come from? Whatd it say on it?? Asking for a friend. Kinda weird that we sold stuff to somthing that doesn't exist...)
As China continues to show its colors, more than ever we should recognize Taiwan and support a free nation. How many people have died fighting communism... I think it's a slap in the face to all that did that we wont take a diplomatic stance so simple...
Instead of calling it "Taiwan" call it what is, "The Republic Of China." The regime in Peking is not the legit government of the country. Never has been.
You are missing the point. They don't think they are an independent nation.
"One China" is a knotty and complicated problem. I don't begin to understand it, but, I try. If they said, "We are Taiwan," or "We are Formosa," then, maybe. But, they don't say that; we can't recognize a nation that does not recognise itself. I would recommend Barbara Tuchman's "Stillwell and the American Experience in China," to folks interested in the subject. https://www.amazon.com/Stilwell-American-Experience-China-1911-45/dp/0802138527
While Im not Capt Research, and have no Taiwanese relatives to ask, I gotta say, that sounds ridiculous. Its an entity thats stood alone since before cars had fins. Its had a govt thats made policy, created infrastructure, built a military, etc. Sure at some level theres complications as families may have members on both sides of the Strait. And the claims of ownership from both sides dont help. But I dont think those claims are legitimate, theyre just the remains of a long standing grudge over a civil war. If the South had endured the war and survived this long on its own since 1864, we might not like it, but they'd be a sovereign nation too.
The discussion of a war in defense of Taiwan has been going for quite a while, and obviously in multiple levels of govt, but yet we don't "recognize" them... Its govt maneuvering and State Department retardation, so as not to offend the CCP, yet we're contemplating war. We do silly FONOPS, trying to show commitment to international laws and the worlds refutation of Chinas SCS claims, but yet we won't officially admit Taiwan is a soverign nation?? Repeat- its absurd.
So yes Tom I agree that the relationship between the island and mainland does have its complexities, at personal, diplomatic, and historical levels. But most of that shouldnt be an issue, and frankly, our problem. Our only direction should be to stop simping to the CCP, stop pretending, and recognize Taiwan as what it is- a free, standalone nation...
Among our many problems is that when a foreigner, friend or foe or neutral, looks at our domestic multi-tier justice, they see that the words mean nothing to the government saying them. In this country we no longer live under any semblance of "rule of law" but rather the "rules of men."
Good point. I believe foreigners are paying a lot of attention to why some presidents are hounded by the law and others not and why some protesters are being locked up whereas others are lionized.
I made a mistake in talking someone out of orders to the Fort Worth. Who knew the pier queens would be such a great opportunity to get your college out of the way.
(Are the detailers discriminating against people who took LCS/LCS related billets yet?)
"..documents obtained by Navy Times warn that cracks can grow if the ships transits faster than 15 knots in seas with maximum wave heights of about eight feet."
"The horror stories I've heard about maintenance on DDGs are interesting."
Don't doubt it. The "Really Smart Guys" decided that maintenance was best outsourced some years back now...
But at least the DDG's weren't specifically designed to be spoon fed by contractors throughout their entire life.
Gah! All the crappy comments about our LCS making a (under)statement in WESTPAC. All the best spit wads have been spat with good effect, pretty sure I couldn't diss any better. Won't even try. Next time I need to get to the pile-on earlier.
Unless we get serious about material and combat readiness (See Danish frigate Iver Huitfeldt, HMS Diamond.) this is but a pretty photo-op. But, it's a start, and something to build upon.
Just talking. We are simultaneously sending other messages (can't build ships amongst them) and hearing partner nations in Asia telling us to focus on interests and asking us not to force them to choose. Each international actor in the region (to include our opponents) will have their own definition of acceptable diplomatic and economic outcomes and must be active participants in changing the trajectory of the current state toward a more desirable outcome.
LCS plus water cannon?
"LCS Firetruck Mission Module"!!
(Operational by 2040)
Well, it will be cancelled in 2047, 3 billion dollars over budget.
As a reminder...
Sixty years ago...this was the combat power that could be amassed...and maintained...in the South China Sea.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Task_Force_77_(United_States_Navy)#/media/File%3ATask_Force_77_in_South_China_Sea%2C_1965.jpg
Now we've got the Mobile.
Hell, even thirty-three years ago; from the same wiki entry
"Operation Desert Storm commenced the next day, with the U.S. Navy launching 228 combat aircraft sorties from Midway and Ranger in the Persian Gulf, from Theodore Roosevelt en route to the Gulf, and from John F. Kennedy, Saratoga, and America in the Red Sea. In addition, the Navy launched more than 100 Tomahawk missiles from nine ships in the Mediterranean Sea, the Red Sea, and the Persian Gulf... "
In the end Vietnam by Linebacker 72 there were six CV in the Tonkin Gulf with all their assets.
Beautiful words. Well-coordinated.
“....the rule of law that is the foundation for a peaceful and stable Indo-Pacific region...”
"....to uphold the global rules-based order."
“Every country should be free to conduct lawful air and maritime operations."
"...striving to realise a free and open international order based on the rule of law and securing regional peace and stability."
I hope the PAO who wrote them gets a Meritorious Service Medal at the very least. But they are only words. I can hear the laughter in Beijing.
You want to get Xi's attention? Slap a 25% tariff on Chinese imports. Close all the Confucius centers. End China's purchase of American farmland. Deport all illegal Chinese immigrants.
If you really want to get his attention, then recognize Taiwan as a sovereign nation or at least threaten to do so. If he says this means war, then so be it. Let us fight it here and now rather than in the future. I don't think Xi will be so eager to gamble.
Dude, don't be so simplistic. China is complicated. Before shooting off at the mouth, do some research.
We can't recognise Taiwan as a sovereign nation because it is not a sovereign nation. It is China. Simply put the "One China" problem is that both governments claim to be the one legitimate government of China.
A better way to deal with China is to take the high road, be the better nation. "Observe good faith and justice towards all nations; cultivate peace and harmony with all.
In the execution of such a plan, nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations, and passionate attachments for others, should be excluded; and that, in place of them, just and amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges towards another a habitual hatred or a habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable, when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur. Hence, frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation, prompted by ill-will and resentment, sometimes impels to war the government, contrary to the best calculations of policy. The government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject; at other times it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations, has been the victim."
I haven't read such fine words as yours since I read the Kellogg Briand Act of 1928 which outlawed war as an instrument of national policy. But as you said I am just a simplistic dude who just hasn't done any research.
Who knew that the Sermon on the Mount was really a blueprint for conducting foreign policy? And all this time I've been reading The Prince by Machiavelli!
Chat GPT much Tom?
"A better way to deal with China is to take the high road, be the better nation." "Observe good faith and justice towards all nations; cultivate peace and harmony with all.
Always a noble plan...
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2019/07/21/books/review/21Olson/merlin_23352849_dd45e7f2-c2f0-4fee-9ae5-e1e51052cca0-superJumbo.jpg
Which always ends in ignoble failure.
"Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests."
I had thought the sentence "Observe good faith and justice towards all nations; cultivate peace and harmony with all," was so well known that attribution was not required. Sorry. https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/washing.asp
Must admit that my mouth breathing must've fogged up my glasses that day in class...
It was the rest of what you pasted is what I was referring to.
Must say, Chat GPT sounds a bit like 18th century prose.
All that aside, Washington never contemplated our journey....good or ill...to world hegemony.
Nor, when he penned that, did he foresee another world power implacably committed to destroying our wealth and society as payback for what they view as our actions which caused the a "Century of Humiliation".
Not so simply put, Tom. Mao and the Communists prevailed on the mainland of China and the Kuomintang had to evacuate to Formosa. Sun Yat-sen founded what became the KMT in 1894 and the KMT was the government of all China from the collapse of the Qing Dynasty around 1912 until 1949. People can talk about One China, but the fact is that there has been Two China's, 2 "sovereign" nations, since 1949. To say that Taiwan is not a sovereign nation sounds like some Occidental declarative party line talking point. Just my opinion
Point taken, but, the fact remains that both think they are China. we can't "recognise" Formosa because Formosa is not the nation, China is.
Been to Taiwan recently?
Most of the people living in Taiwan, have zero interest in re-unifying with the mainland. Like Hong Kong, there's severe cultural clashes between mainland Chinese and those Chinese from places like Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, Kuala Lumpur, Macau, etc. At one time the KMT embraced the One China theories however, recent political defeats and exposures of corruption have laid-bare that any talk of re-unification and preserving the current way of life is non-existent. South Koreans came to this realization over twenty-years ago regarding their relationship with North Korea.
Sadly, twas not always thus. I called on a husband-wife pair of Drs. for many years. He was Cantonese, she Taiwanese. Every year, they visited both countries. He reported that Taiwanese public opinon in the late 90's was almost 50% in favor of re-unification vis a vis "one country, two systems," especially among the younger. He said that the Taiwanese were favorably impressed by how things on gone with Hong Kong after '97. But over the years, sentiment soured as the CCP started re-acquiring some of their old, bad habits as the 21 century progressed. I haven't seen them since the Hong Kong crackdown. One can guess how sentiment in Taiwan was affected by the CCP's treatment of Hong Kong.
One my own takeaways from the Hong Kong crackdown was that in addition to whatever else was true, it was also a signal that the CCP had given up on the idea of a peaceful re-unification with Taiwan. So they saw no downside to taking the velvet glove off of the iron fist.
It's all ridiculous semantics... Taiwan is a defined piece of land that has its own government. Its not a territory or property of anyone. Its self governing. Its a soverign nation... And it really is that simple!!! The fact that we dont recognize them as a nation is absurd and cowardly. (BTW, when we sold the Kidds, where did the check come from? Whatd it say on it?? Asking for a friend. Kinda weird that we sold stuff to somthing that doesn't exist...)
As China continues to show its colors, more than ever we should recognize Taiwan and support a free nation. How many people have died fighting communism... I think it's a slap in the face to all that did that we wont take a diplomatic stance so simple...
Instead of calling it "Taiwan" call it what is, "The Republic Of China." The regime in Peking is not the legit government of the country. Never has been.
You are missing the point. They don't think they are an independent nation.
"One China" is a knotty and complicated problem. I don't begin to understand it, but, I try. If they said, "We are Taiwan," or "We are Formosa," then, maybe. But, they don't say that; we can't recognize a nation that does not recognise itself. I would recommend Barbara Tuchman's "Stillwell and the American Experience in China," to folks interested in the subject. https://www.amazon.com/Stilwell-American-Experience-China-1911-45/dp/0802138527
"They don't think they are an independent nation"
While Im not Capt Research, and have no Taiwanese relatives to ask, I gotta say, that sounds ridiculous. Its an entity thats stood alone since before cars had fins. Its had a govt thats made policy, created infrastructure, built a military, etc. Sure at some level theres complications as families may have members on both sides of the Strait. And the claims of ownership from both sides dont help. But I dont think those claims are legitimate, theyre just the remains of a long standing grudge over a civil war. If the South had endured the war and survived this long on its own since 1864, we might not like it, but they'd be a sovereign nation too.
The discussion of a war in defense of Taiwan has been going for quite a while, and obviously in multiple levels of govt, but yet we don't "recognize" them... Its govt maneuvering and State Department retardation, so as not to offend the CCP, yet we're contemplating war. We do silly FONOPS, trying to show commitment to international laws and the worlds refutation of Chinas SCS claims, but yet we won't officially admit Taiwan is a soverign nation?? Repeat- its absurd.
So yes Tom I agree that the relationship between the island and mainland does have its complexities, at personal, diplomatic, and historical levels. But most of that shouldnt be an issue, and frankly, our problem. Our only direction should be to stop simping to the CCP, stop pretending, and recognize Taiwan as what it is- a free, standalone nation...
We can recognize whoever we want to recognize. We recognized West Germany as Germany, we can recognize Formosa (East China) as China.
And South Korea.
I don’t think it’s in anyone’s interest to recognise Taiwan as South Korea.
/s
Among our many problems is that when a foreigner, friend or foe or neutral, looks at our domestic multi-tier justice, they see that the words mean nothing to the government saying them. In this country we no longer live under any semblance of "rule of law" but rather the "rules of men."
Good point. I believe foreigners are paying a lot of attention to why some presidents are hounded by the law and others not and why some protesters are being locked up whereas others are lionized.
Many of those same foreigners like what they see happening, and are doing what they can to facilitate it. China and Russia come to mind.
You may be right. It may in their interest to see Americans fighting each other.
It certainly is for Putin and Xi. It's also part of their strategy to wreck the US. I think they will succeed.
I think we are doing a pretty good job of that ourselves without their help.
The only blight on the affair being the USN participating with a LCS. Alas, the OHP Class!
Perry would have given up an LCS.
Yes. He would have said, "We have met the enemy and they are....us."
PRC leadership are not sleeping well tonight seeing the mighty LCS in formation with her vaunted "wave attack" at the ready.
Smart to put the Little Crappy Ship at the end of the column, thus not having to sheer out in order to deal with her going cold, dark and quiet
Great messaging--yes. The Least capable ship of the formation is the one from the USN--embarrassing.
You can see from the wake of the LCS, all of it’s failures.
Hmm... subtle...maybe one day we get to a meaningful number of frigates which looks to be like sometime around 2040 by the pace of things.
if we wait too long we may be building them by candlelight
We appear to have a situation that falls into the category of a generational problem.
12 years after the war.
Can the LCS venture out and about in seastate 3+ these days?
Has she (sue me if you are offended by the pronoun) come alongside in seastate 3?
When was the last time she hit 40 knots?
How many contractor hours were required to get her underway for this evolution?
Asking for a friend...
Friends don’t let friends LCS.
I made a mistake in talking someone out of orders to the Fort Worth. Who knew the pier queens would be such a great opportunity to get your college out of the way.
(Are the detailers discriminating against people who took LCS/LCS related billets yet?)
You know, these would make perfect fireships. (Richard Bolitho smiles.)
Considering that most of the issues have been with the monohulls, not the trimarans, I think MOBILE works well enough.
The horror stories I've heard about maintenance on DDGs are interesting.
I was referring to the LCS even hull cracking problems in particular...
https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2022/05/10/the-littoral-combat-ships-latest-problem-class-wide-structural-defects-leading-to-hull-cracks/
"..documents obtained by Navy Times warn that cracks can grow if the ships transits faster than 15 knots in seas with maximum wave heights of about eight feet."
"The horror stories I've heard about maintenance on DDGs are interesting."
Don't doubt it. The "Really Smart Guys" decided that maintenance was best outsourced some years back now...
But at least the DDG's weren't specifically designed to be spoon fed by contractors throughout their entire life.
I've had a few people with eyes on say this appears to have been remedied.
Have your sighted peeps seen an LCS even underway in seastate 3?
I won't bother to ask if they've seen one alongside in seastate 3, because I'm not in the mood to be patronized with bs...
.
Gah! All the crappy comments about our LCS making a (under)statement in WESTPAC. All the best spit wads have been spat with good effect, pretty sure I couldn't diss any better. Won't even try. Next time I need to get to the pile-on earlier.
Unless we get serious about material and combat readiness (See Danish frigate Iver Huitfeldt, HMS Diamond.) this is but a pretty photo-op. But, it's a start, and something to build upon.
As the chinese say, "a journey of a thousand li begins with but a single step."
Too bad our Navy has acquired a reputation for stumbling.
Wonder if this visit by these Army Guys was related...
https://d1ldvf68ux039x.cloudfront.net/thumbs/photos/2403/8271918/1000w_q95.jpg
Nice. Nicer if S. Korea, and the Kiwis had come out to play
".....New Zealand, a colony of mainland China".
Or Australia's renegade province, take your pick.
I also forgot to mention Indonesia and Taiwan...
For a "low observable" ship that LCS sure is observable.
She's low observable from radar returns. Too bad some Admiral twenty years ago demanded waterjets.
Who’s the fat chick in the back of the line?
A good start.