"A maritime fight in the Pacific simply is not their fight."
This informs Germany's entire foreign and industrial policy at the moment as well. Investments have been made in China, 'und ve shall recoup zem!' Come hell or high water. So why provide any support to even allow another nation to pivot to that region, when one's interests are served by Beijing's interpretation of "stability" in the region?
BK is spot on! As long as the US is providing the bulwark of defense for the middle of Europe, (Germany) the Germans will spend their budget on social welfare programs.
Great post Sal. Germany needs to fix its Germany problem first. Here’s a good recent podcast with a 30 year-plus member of the Bundestag, detailing the fatherland’s existential crisis: https://megaphone.link/TGF1938047955
Apparently the German frigates are just a jobs program for ship builders. What's the point of building such a ship that can't defend itself in any modern threat environment? Nor can it apparently go on the offensive. WTF Germany?
Seems the Poles would prefer to gain more local (EU) sway in NATO decisions, and not have the vicissitudes of American politics steering the organization...and Poland's no joke self-defense.
So I would think they would be heartily nudging Germany to step up and take realistic stake in NATO's "Eastern Flank."
"The USA is not going to leave NATO, regardless of what some overly dramatic heavy breathers may say."
Eisenhower, 1951;
“If in 10 years, all American troops stationed in Europe for national defense purposes have not been returned to the United States, then this whole project [NATO] will have failed.”
Germany and the other non 2% deadbeat NATO members don't care. They know that even if they're evicted from the treaty the other countries will act as buffers.
Canada doesn't even care enough to protect its own economic interests in the arctic.
Ploughs and social programs have won the day over swords.
I think the only disagreement I have with you on this is the necessity of US involvement in the defense of Europe. I contend that US involvement may be desirable for political reasons but is not a necessity. Poland alone has about the same population as Ukraine and a much larger GDP. Add in the rest of Europe and it seems to me that NATO, even without the US, is more than a match for Russia. US involvement cannot take the place of Europe's lack of political will to expend the effort to defend itself.
And, frankly, the US does not, and will not for relevant future, have the resources to defend both East and West; a choice must be made. Sorry, folks, those duty assignments in Brussels, Stuttgart, etc. need to be moved West.
Non lethal armament in order to enable a non-provocative response? Is this kindergarten? A *warship* is afraid to provoke? What’s the opposite of full-bore?
And that tells me that Germany is a paper tiger at the moment.
Water cannons are firehoses; the USN has had this capability since the steam-powered fire pump. If memory serves, the old "Landing Party Manual," gave directions on the use of fire hoses on a crowd when loading civilians off a pier in an evacuation situation.
There is no reason a warship couldn't be bristling with weapons, and still have room for non-provocative weapons. Searchlights weigh nothing. Your water canons are already in the plans as the DC system.
Germany is fucked. Germany suffers from social problems, massive immigration and a self abused notion of white guilt. They have had multiple generational struggles with their Nazi past and can’t and won’t rise above it.
Europe itself has squandered its future by throwing treasure and armaments at Ukraine that they can’t and won’t replace.
Europe is going to be consumed. By whom is the question?
Germany and France both dislike American leadership in Nato. A couple decades ago they tried forming a European army with each contributing some units. I haven't heard anything about it for a long time so maybe it didn't work out or was a victim of the peace dividend. Germany is rarely helpful with international issues. And France likes to pretend it's still important.
The Europeans will continue to take advantage of the U.S. as long as we allow it. Europeans in general, and Germans in particular, think Americans are foolish and naïve. They're not wrong.
“The USA is not going to leave NATO, regardless of what some overly dramatic heavy breathers may say.”
Just call us “garbage” Sal, PedoJoe does.
But why should Germany do a damn thing when you take the ultimate consequences of their inaction? It’s just sad when those called garbage by the Democratic Party will be the ones fighting and dying for Germany.
Good luck with that wishful thinking. I was born in Germany, emigrated too the US, became a naturalized citizen, joined the Navy for a 28.5 year active duty career retiring as a Navy CAPTAIN. I have been back to Germany on my frigate (USS Aubrey Fitch (FFG-34)) with the STANAVFORLANT NATO squadron. A bit of history - Germany under Hitler recruited a massive number of German troops. These were mostly patriotic loyal Germans (probably conservative). As everyone knows the German Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe were all decimated by the end of the war (including Soviet prisoners of war that were killed). That culled out the post war population, consisting of a higher percentage of draft dodgers, conscientious objectors, and generally liberal remnants of the German population. It is no wonder that post war Germany became ultra liberal, anti-war, and the opposite of Hitler's strong conservative Army. The German military is a shadow of its former pre-WWII self. That will not change until enough generations have grown up to again spread the conservative to liberal percentages (i.e. Darwin's law). It is starting but no where near balanced yet. The American military bases in Germany bring 'protection' without the need to have Germany rise up to the task. So, sorry but demographics determine the population's spread. Germany will probably not rise up to the occasion until Russia invades. End of story.
If you go to any area of Germany around a US military base, you can visit the "Texas Bar" or any number of other US cenrtic establishments. Germany is wedded to US protection without contributing enough to their NATO responsibilites, that simple and it won't change until Germany gets invaded by Russia.
Thank you Commander. I never tire of reading or saying the German commitment to European defense is a disgrace.
"A maritime fight in the Pacific simply is not their fight."
This informs Germany's entire foreign and industrial policy at the moment as well. Investments have been made in China, 'und ve shall recoup zem!' Come hell or high water. So why provide any support to even allow another nation to pivot to that region, when one's interests are served by Beijing's interpretation of "stability" in the region?
German's eggs are parked in 2 baskets essentially:
1. Russian oil and gas imports
2. Chinese market and manufacturing for their big autos.
It can be said that Olaf Scholz is the proverbial Neville Chamberlain of Germany.
German foreign policy is of appeasement.
Nothing good is coming out of NATO and EU with the US funding bulk of the defense largesse while euro sipped their coffee and eat croissants as usual.
Some wake up calls needed badly at this point.
BK is spot on! As long as the US is providing the bulwark of defense for the middle of Europe, (Germany) the Germans will spend their budget on social welfare programs.
That German frigate is one ugly ship.
Great post Sal. Germany needs to fix its Germany problem first. Here’s a good recent podcast with a 30 year-plus member of the Bundestag, detailing the fatherland’s existential crisis: https://megaphone.link/TGF1938047955
Apparently the German frigates are just a jobs program for ship builders. What's the point of building such a ship that can't defend itself in any modern threat environment? Nor can it apparently go on the offensive. WTF Germany?
Seems the Poles would prefer to gain more local (EU) sway in NATO decisions, and not have the vicissitudes of American politics steering the organization...and Poland's no joke self-defense.
So I would think they would be heartily nudging Germany to step up and take realistic stake in NATO's "Eastern Flank."
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/polands-foreign-minister-on-defending-ukraine-and-its-path-to-nato-membership
(I tried not to do it Cdr...I really did, but it was like my fingers were typing on a Ouija board!)
"The USA is not going to leave NATO, regardless of what some overly dramatic heavy breathers may say."
Eisenhower, 1951;
“If in 10 years, all American troops stationed in Europe for national defense purposes have not been returned to the United States, then this whole project [NATO] will have failed.”
Germany and the other non 2% deadbeat NATO members don't care. They know that even if they're evicted from the treaty the other countries will act as buffers.
Canada doesn't even care enough to protect its own economic interests in the arctic.
Ploughs and social programs have won the day over swords.
I think the only disagreement I have with you on this is the necessity of US involvement in the defense of Europe. I contend that US involvement may be desirable for political reasons but is not a necessity. Poland alone has about the same population as Ukraine and a much larger GDP. Add in the rest of Europe and it seems to me that NATO, even without the US, is more than a match for Russia. US involvement cannot take the place of Europe's lack of political will to expend the effort to defend itself.
And, frankly, the US does not, and will not for relevant future, have the resources to defend both East and West; a choice must be made. Sorry, folks, those duty assignments in Brussels, Stuttgart, etc. need to be moved West.
Non lethal armament in order to enable a non-provocative response? Is this kindergarten? A *warship* is afraid to provoke? What’s the opposite of full-bore?
And that tells me that Germany is a paper tiger at the moment.
Water cannons are firehoses; the USN has had this capability since the steam-powered fire pump. If memory serves, the old "Landing Party Manual," gave directions on the use of fire hoses on a crowd when loading civilians off a pier in an evacuation situation.
There is no reason a warship couldn't be bristling with weapons, and still have room for non-provocative weapons. Searchlights weigh nothing. Your water canons are already in the plans as the DC system.
I'm so old I remember being proud of my German ancestry. Not anymore.
Germany is fucked. Germany suffers from social problems, massive immigration and a self abused notion of white guilt. They have had multiple generational struggles with their Nazi past and can’t and won’t rise above it.
Europe itself has squandered its future by throwing treasure and armaments at Ukraine that they can’t and won’t replace.
Europe is going to be consumed. By whom is the question?
Germany and France both dislike American leadership in Nato. A couple decades ago they tried forming a European army with each contributing some units. I haven't heard anything about it for a long time so maybe it didn't work out or was a victim of the peace dividend. Germany is rarely helpful with international issues. And France likes to pretend it's still important.
The Europeans will continue to take advantage of the U.S. as long as we allow it. Europeans in general, and Germans in particular, think Americans are foolish and naïve. They're not wrong.
“The USA is not going to leave NATO, regardless of what some overly dramatic heavy breathers may say.”
Just call us “garbage” Sal, PedoJoe does.
But why should Germany do a damn thing when you take the ultimate consequences of their inaction? It’s just sad when those called garbage by the Democratic Party will be the ones fighting and dying for Germany.
Good luck with that wishful thinking. I was born in Germany, emigrated too the US, became a naturalized citizen, joined the Navy for a 28.5 year active duty career retiring as a Navy CAPTAIN. I have been back to Germany on my frigate (USS Aubrey Fitch (FFG-34)) with the STANAVFORLANT NATO squadron. A bit of history - Germany under Hitler recruited a massive number of German troops. These were mostly patriotic loyal Germans (probably conservative). As everyone knows the German Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe were all decimated by the end of the war (including Soviet prisoners of war that were killed). That culled out the post war population, consisting of a higher percentage of draft dodgers, conscientious objectors, and generally liberal remnants of the German population. It is no wonder that post war Germany became ultra liberal, anti-war, and the opposite of Hitler's strong conservative Army. The German military is a shadow of its former pre-WWII self. That will not change until enough generations have grown up to again spread the conservative to liberal percentages (i.e. Darwin's law). It is starting but no where near balanced yet. The American military bases in Germany bring 'protection' without the need to have Germany rise up to the task. So, sorry but demographics determine the population's spread. Germany will probably not rise up to the occasion until Russia invades. End of story.
If you go to any area of Germany around a US military base, you can visit the "Texas Bar" or any number of other US cenrtic establishments. Germany is wedded to US protection without contributing enough to their NATO responsibilites, that simple and it won't change until Germany gets invaded by Russia.