Peter Ko is, apparently, the hero. I see a lot of instances where charges are brought decades after the alleged crime. Do we need to re-visit our statue of limitations?
There is a "system", but it is in no way just and it has become optimized for the convenience of the judicial bureaucracy. The process is the punishment. This is also not particularly new. It's just becoming increasingly obvious every day. As legal historian John Langbein pointed out back in 1992.
"The disappearance of criminal jury trial offers as telling a lesson as one could wish about the myth of written constitutions. Constitutional texts do not enforce themselves. They require the adherence and support both of the social and political order and of the legal system and legal professionals. Plea bargaining has defeated the Constitution and the Bill of Rights because legal professionals - especially judges, prosecutors, and defense attorneys - have preferred the convenience of doing deals to the rigor of trying cases."
We have optimized the "system" for dragging out the process until a defendant agrees to a plea. It matters not whether the crime is civil, criminal, or political.
I didn't follow this very closely. Only remember my initial disgust at the alleged behaviors and seemingly ample evidence to convict those involved. I think that dragging out a prosecution just to wear out, bankrupt and punished someone is reprehensible. So too is a defendent and his lawyer delaying the process to delay justice and avoid prison. In retrospect, I think a tidy court-martial would have served better. BCD, bread & water, the brig, lots of PRT, no TV and a Gideon Bible. Is it too late to reach out with a UCMJ Article 133 charge?
I don't shed a tear for anyone who sold out their country, the navy, their family, and their own souls for their own short-term gain in this whole debaucle.
I have followed you on-line for more than a year now, and until today, I would follow you into the gates of hell if those were our orders and that was our mission.
The miscreants you are defending today shamed themselves and their families.
The miscreants you are defending today harmed our Navy and their own shipmates.
The miscreants you are defending today should have faced Court Martial.
The miscreants you are defending today dragged this out by design, to avoid punishment.
The miscreants you are defending today viscerally disgust me.
Commander, I ask you sincerely, do you live by the code?
We will not lie, cheat or steal, nor tolerate among us anyone who does.
Agreed. This is a failure of the justice system for sure. But, you can’t bribe someone without them being willing to take the bribe. Their actions brought disgrace to the Navy. It doesn’t say if they were punished via the UCMJ or not. Officers and gentleman isn’t how I would describe them. There isn’t much sympathy here except for how long it dragged on.
Don’t cry for them Argentina. Lots of solid evidence against those four clowns. I read each and every affidavit and arrest warrant concerning these guys too (I subscribed to PACER solely to read the details). You know who to feel sorry for? The ones who, looking at the overwhelming evidence against them, plead guilty and did hard time. These four d-brains walked only because they decided to roll the dice and go to trial. You could also shed a tear for the sailors who had one of these dirtbags preside over their mast case and then the sailors summarily had their lives turned upside down by corrupt senior officers doing worse things on liberty with Leonard than the mast cases that were before them.
The saddest thing is the US Marshall’s service ended up looking like jerks for letting Leonard escape to Venezuela and the Justice Department prosecutors looked like jerks for taking a slam dunk felony case and turning it into a misdemeanor and a $100 fine. There is your ineptitude and the whole San Diego office that worked on this case should be taken to task for their utter failure.
A lot of careers of people on the periphery of this scandal were ruined over this and the four who had their hands in the cookie jar the deepest just walk. That’s BS.
Pardon me if I don’t fret over these d-bags legal bills. Having to pay some money and going through some inconvenience is much better than ending up in federal prison where they belonged.
Also, don’t forget all this unfolded during COVID and Leonard’s bouts with renal cancer. Talk about impediments to a speedy trial. If Leonard was anything, he was a showman who worked a room and always took photos. The fact he had these four inSingapore on the helo pad of a swanky hotel drinking Leonard provided crystal champagne and smoking Leonard provided cubano’s after feasting on a much more than $25 meal speaks volumes of the character of these four. Leonard stated he had placed video cameras in his hanky panky rooms over the years to collect kompramat. The government had over 4 terabytes of data from Leonard’s servers. The prosecutors blew it and the dirtbags won. Yeah, just yeah.
Yup - I arrived in FDNF at the tail end of the Fat Leonard "glory days" and before the indictments dropped; missed out on the reign of “Too Tall” by about six months but everyone in my shop had horrific stories of his egotistical and tyrannical behavior aboard CVN LAST SHIP – female sailors afraid to interact with him, his spouse having free reign over the ship’s MWR, him bragging of beating previous IG complaints, etc. Was not surprised at all when his name finally popped up as one Leonard’s “bros” – I actually got messages from former shipmates giddy that the legal system had finally caught up with him! Let’s not forget that he did plead guilty to one charge of destroying a government computer hard drive – something that only innocent people do right?
You and Scoobs are right. That was a very mean spirited thug who ruled by fiat on both the carrier and and his deep draft command. The gall it must have took for his wife to return a high end purse gifted to her by Leonard because the logo was cracked. Free hotel rooms, guided shopping tours in Bangkok. Gourmet food eaten all over WESTPAC all on Leonard’s corrupt dime, NowI am supposed to feel sorry for him because his trial was delayed multiple times by events and his own legal team? Nope. That guy was caught red handed. He took evidence and knowingly destroyed it. He should be in prison. The evidence for the other three is equally damning. One guy even went bat in hand begging Leonard for more money when he got financially strapped. He did it over email. The goobermint had the emails. Slam dunk! No, wait, he walked just like the other three.
It seems a few of us may be missing the Commander's main point (or I'm puting my own thoughts over his; it's been known to happen).
IMO, Criminals gonna criminal. Sometimes they get away with it. The real travesty in this situation, as with nearly EVERY high profile case involving federal or military "justice" is the complete lack thereof. There is "prosecutorial misconduct" every time. The cases go on for years every time. The DoJ and or JAG are corrupt, every time.
We no longer have a system of justice, nor in most circumstances any justice at all, in our post-Constitutional former republic.
"Every", "never" and "always" are not words to banter about unless you have proof they are so.
One of the host's beefs was the time it took to finally get to these four "ahem" senior officers to trial. When you look at the timeline after Leonard's arrest, the feds went after the guilty pleas first, the easier, smaller trials second and then finally arrived at these guys AFTER Leonard's renal cancer treatments, COVID restrictions and court delays by BOTH sides. I tracked all this closely because it was interesting to me in a gruesome, serial killer kind of way. I never read anything about the defense complaining how long the case took to make it to trial. They slow rolled it and got lucky because Leonard escaped to Venezuela.
As far as DoJ or any other goobermint agency being an all seeing, all knowing corrupt, evil force for bad I have to laugh. Sure, the lead prosecutor in this case very well may have been a "hard charger" looking to climb the ladder on the backs of others, but since it has been discovered he cheated, throw him under the bus multiple times. Disbar him and make sure he never lawers (misspelling intentional, because that's what he is) again. We have those "hard chargers" in the navy too. Eventually they usually either flame out or do themselves in and end up pariahs. I offer as an example a certain previous CO from CHV who couldn't keep her hands off of her JO's necks.
Post Constitutional former republic? That's a little harsh, but you're entitled to your opinion. Just like I am entitled to mine. Conspiracy theories are stupid.
If two or more people conspire to achieve an outcome, that's a conspiracy. Using the term "conspiracy theory" to disparage the idea of a team of people associated with a particular act does a disservice to the truth.
With respect to high-profile cases, it seems that "always" and "never" are pretty close to truth, although I admit they were used hyperbolically.
- Mueller left and innocent man in prison to advance his cases
- The Gallagher prosecutors tapped phones of defense counsel
- Interviewing General Flynn under false pretenses and then literally lying on the investigation form
- Intimidation and plea deals left and right.
I stand by our criminal justice institutions being hopelessly broken and abused. A republic without equal application of the rule of law to all and respect for the acknowledged Constitutional rights of citizens, and with rampant, unconstitutional (states) election fraud through many of the 50 states, is not following its Constitution, and is by definition "post-Constitutional."
With respect to "Sure, the lead prosecutor in this case very well may have been a "hard charger" looking to climb the ladder on the backs of others, but since it has been discovered he cheated, throw him under the bus multiple times. Disbar him and make sure he never lawers (misspelling intentional, because that's what he is) again."
I strongly doubt there will be much in the way of punishment. Most likely allowed to quietly retire, if even that, when I can continue to pay their retirement while they make bank someplace else.
I see your point, but I'm afraid the black pill looms large for me. We have no justice, no representation, and no rights that are not bestowed upon us by our local, state, and federal lords.
You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. I am not asking you to agree with my opinion on conspiracy theories. I am saddened to read that you, a fellow American, see a "black pill" instead of a shining beacon on a hill. That's too bad. As a country we have warts, but not that many warts.
I think we are in more dire straits than many realize, but I do hope I am wrong. In the meantime all we can do is observe, investigate, learn, and support the people with whom we have contact in our daily lives.
Pretty sure one of them were mentioned in the USNA alumni magazine Shipmate and kicked out of the alumni association . Unsure how they could kick out a lifetime member but I seem to recall it
No one agrees with me, but I have always contended that misconduct, if it can be proven, should result in charges and sentencing for those who did it, BUT NOT vacate the charges in the case they did it for. That is, if you have proven a crime, sentence those who are guilty for that crime.
No. I am talking about dismissing charges which are true because of judicial or prosecutorial misconduct. Never throw out a case that otherwise is proved. If someone ELSE commits a crime, treat that someone else as a criminal. But don't let the original criminal off the hook because of someone else's crime. Not of justice and respect for the law are what you care about.
I have had this thought as well. Rather like a "false claim of rape" the perpetrator of the misconduct should face the same penalty as the original crime would warrant
The what (perversion, corruption of the justice system) is out in the open before us. The WHY it happens remains a mystery. Why did these four get off? Is this a case of George Carlin's "big club, and you ain't in it" protecting their own? The world wonders if that is rain or bodily fluids falling its back...
Because our prosecutors believe they are Soviet prosecutors unencumbered by either the law or the Constitution. The Judge said tough schit, your sin is the greater of the two. (I posted a link above.)
The judge? She sentenced Admiral Gilbeau to jail, so I don't think she plays the club thing.
But, it's going to be interesting to see what happens with the people who went to jail now due the self-admitted prosecutorial misconduct.
Why are you only focusing on these 4 "clowns?" How about the several "senior" officers who skated because they were flag rank??? That kind of charge just kinda disappears??? No??? Called command climate??? Who generates it?
Welcome to America 2023. Maybe it was always that way but it seems that law and justice really took a nose dive the moment Trump rode down the escalator in 2015. It seems that America has become a banana republic.
You mean things like head of Hillary Clinton's "Russia!" manufacturing enterprise inside the FBI was actually a Russian agent? That kind of law and justice?
I mean the Steele dossier being used to spy on a candidate and form the basis of an FBI investigation. I mean the sandbagging of General Flynn. Etc. I expect the leader of the oppostion to be hounded by the authorities in Zimbabwe and Nicaraugua not America.
Yes. All norms and standards of official behavior have been thrown away in the unholy quest of our largely treasonous institutions to deny the American people the President they want.
Time to prosecute the prosecutors, disbar, fine, and maybe imprison them. Prosecutors will continue to abuse the courts until they have skin in the game.
Peter Ko is, apparently, the hero. I see a lot of instances where charges are brought decades after the alleged crime. Do we need to re-visit our statue of limitations?
Hunter Biden thinks the statute should be shortened.
The statute is based upon either when it happens or when it is discovered.
Over the last 3 years, especially, we have seen there is no justice system, just lawfare, or prosecutors ignoring serious crimes.
There is a "system", but it is in no way just and it has become optimized for the convenience of the judicial bureaucracy. The process is the punishment. This is also not particularly new. It's just becoming increasingly obvious every day. As legal historian John Langbein pointed out back in 1992.
"The disappearance of criminal jury trial offers as telling a lesson as one could wish about the myth of written constitutions. Constitutional texts do not enforce themselves. They require the adherence and support both of the social and political order and of the legal system and legal professionals. Plea bargaining has defeated the Constitution and the Bill of Rights because legal professionals - especially judges, prosecutors, and defense attorneys - have preferred the convenience of doing deals to the rigor of trying cases."
We have optimized the "system" for dragging out the process until a defendant agrees to a plea. It matters not whether the crime is civil, criminal, or political.
I didn't follow this very closely. Only remember my initial disgust at the alleged behaviors and seemingly ample evidence to convict those involved. I think that dragging out a prosecution just to wear out, bankrupt and punished someone is reprehensible. So too is a defendent and his lawyer delaying the process to delay justice and avoid prison. In retrospect, I think a tidy court-martial would have served better. BCD, bread & water, the brig, lots of PRT, no TV and a Gideon Bible. Is it too late to reach out with a UCMJ Article 133 charge?
I don't shed a tear for anyone who sold out their country, the navy, their family, and their own souls for their own short-term gain in this whole debaucle.
This isn't about them. This is about you.
With all due respect, Commander,
I have followed you on-line for more than a year now, and until today, I would follow you into the gates of hell if those were our orders and that was our mission.
The miscreants you are defending today shamed themselves and their families.
The miscreants you are defending today harmed our Navy and their own shipmates.
The miscreants you are defending today should have faced Court Martial.
The miscreants you are defending today dragged this out by design, to avoid punishment.
The miscreants you are defending today viscerally disgust me.
Commander, I ask you sincerely, do you live by the code?
We will not lie, cheat or steal, nor tolerate among us anyone who does.
Sincerely,
Harry the Seabee
Agreed. This is a failure of the justice system for sure. But, you can’t bribe someone without them being willing to take the bribe. Their actions brought disgrace to the Navy. It doesn’t say if they were punished via the UCMJ or not. Officers and gentleman isn’t how I would describe them. There isn’t much sympathy here except for how long it dragged on.
Don’t cry for them Argentina. Lots of solid evidence against those four clowns. I read each and every affidavit and arrest warrant concerning these guys too (I subscribed to PACER solely to read the details). You know who to feel sorry for? The ones who, looking at the overwhelming evidence against them, plead guilty and did hard time. These four d-brains walked only because they decided to roll the dice and go to trial. You could also shed a tear for the sailors who had one of these dirtbags preside over their mast case and then the sailors summarily had their lives turned upside down by corrupt senior officers doing worse things on liberty with Leonard than the mast cases that were before them.
The saddest thing is the US Marshall’s service ended up looking like jerks for letting Leonard escape to Venezuela and the Justice Department prosecutors looked like jerks for taking a slam dunk felony case and turning it into a misdemeanor and a $100 fine. There is your ineptitude and the whole San Diego office that worked on this case should be taken to task for their utter failure.
A lot of careers of people on the periphery of this scandal were ruined over this and the four who had their hands in the cookie jar the deepest just walk. That’s BS.
Pardon me if I don’t fret over these d-bags legal bills. Having to pay some money and going through some inconvenience is much better than ending up in federal prison where they belonged.
Also, don’t forget all this unfolded during COVID and Leonard’s bouts with renal cancer. Talk about impediments to a speedy trial. If Leonard was anything, he was a showman who worked a room and always took photos. The fact he had these four inSingapore on the helo pad of a swanky hotel drinking Leonard provided crystal champagne and smoking Leonard provided cubano’s after feasting on a much more than $25 meal speaks volumes of the character of these four. Leonard stated he had placed video cameras in his hanky panky rooms over the years to collect kompramat. The government had over 4 terabytes of data from Leonard’s servers. The prosecutors blew it and the dirtbags won. Yeah, just yeah.
Yup - I arrived in FDNF at the tail end of the Fat Leonard "glory days" and before the indictments dropped; missed out on the reign of “Too Tall” by about six months but everyone in my shop had horrific stories of his egotistical and tyrannical behavior aboard CVN LAST SHIP – female sailors afraid to interact with him, his spouse having free reign over the ship’s MWR, him bragging of beating previous IG complaints, etc. Was not surprised at all when his name finally popped up as one Leonard’s “bros” – I actually got messages from former shipmates giddy that the legal system had finally caught up with him! Let’s not forget that he did plead guilty to one charge of destroying a government computer hard drive – something that only innocent people do right?
I also heard of careers maliciously ruined by the same person from a first person perspective who witnessed it all.
You and Scoobs are right. That was a very mean spirited thug who ruled by fiat on both the carrier and and his deep draft command. The gall it must have took for his wife to return a high end purse gifted to her by Leonard because the logo was cracked. Free hotel rooms, guided shopping tours in Bangkok. Gourmet food eaten all over WESTPAC all on Leonard’s corrupt dime, NowI am supposed to feel sorry for him because his trial was delayed multiple times by events and his own legal team? Nope. That guy was caught red handed. He took evidence and knowingly destroyed it. He should be in prison. The evidence for the other three is equally damning. One guy even went bat in hand begging Leonard for more money when he got financially strapped. He did it over email. The goobermint had the emails. Slam dunk! No, wait, he walked just like the other three.
Let’s not forget that he did plead guilty to one charge of destroying a government computer hard drive – something that only innocent people do right?
Well, if their name is Hillary they don't even have to plead at all.
It seems a few of us may be missing the Commander's main point (or I'm puting my own thoughts over his; it's been known to happen).
IMO, Criminals gonna criminal. Sometimes they get away with it. The real travesty in this situation, as with nearly EVERY high profile case involving federal or military "justice" is the complete lack thereof. There is "prosecutorial misconduct" every time. The cases go on for years every time. The DoJ and or JAG are corrupt, every time.
We no longer have a system of justice, nor in most circumstances any justice at all, in our post-Constitutional former republic.
"Every", "never" and "always" are not words to banter about unless you have proof they are so.
One of the host's beefs was the time it took to finally get to these four "ahem" senior officers to trial. When you look at the timeline after Leonard's arrest, the feds went after the guilty pleas first, the easier, smaller trials second and then finally arrived at these guys AFTER Leonard's renal cancer treatments, COVID restrictions and court delays by BOTH sides. I tracked all this closely because it was interesting to me in a gruesome, serial killer kind of way. I never read anything about the defense complaining how long the case took to make it to trial. They slow rolled it and got lucky because Leonard escaped to Venezuela.
As far as DoJ or any other goobermint agency being an all seeing, all knowing corrupt, evil force for bad I have to laugh. Sure, the lead prosecutor in this case very well may have been a "hard charger" looking to climb the ladder on the backs of others, but since it has been discovered he cheated, throw him under the bus multiple times. Disbar him and make sure he never lawers (misspelling intentional, because that's what he is) again. We have those "hard chargers" in the navy too. Eventually they usually either flame out or do themselves in and end up pariahs. I offer as an example a certain previous CO from CHV who couldn't keep her hands off of her JO's necks.
Post Constitutional former republic? That's a little harsh, but you're entitled to your opinion. Just like I am entitled to mine. Conspiracy theories are stupid.
If two or more people conspire to achieve an outcome, that's a conspiracy. Using the term "conspiracy theory" to disparage the idea of a team of people associated with a particular act does a disservice to the truth.
With respect to high-profile cases, it seems that "always" and "never" are pretty close to truth, although I admit they were used hyperbolically.
- Mueller left and innocent man in prison to advance his cases
- The Gallagher prosecutors tapped phones of defense counsel
- Interviewing General Flynn under false pretenses and then literally lying on the investigation form
- Intimidation and plea deals left and right.
I stand by our criminal justice institutions being hopelessly broken and abused. A republic without equal application of the rule of law to all and respect for the acknowledged Constitutional rights of citizens, and with rampant, unconstitutional (states) election fraud through many of the 50 states, is not following its Constitution, and is by definition "post-Constitutional."
With respect to "Sure, the lead prosecutor in this case very well may have been a "hard charger" looking to climb the ladder on the backs of others, but since it has been discovered he cheated, throw him under the bus multiple times. Disbar him and make sure he never lawers (misspelling intentional, because that's what he is) again."
I strongly doubt there will be much in the way of punishment. Most likely allowed to quietly retire, if even that, when I can continue to pay their retirement while they make bank someplace else.
I see your point, but I'm afraid the black pill looms large for me. We have no justice, no representation, and no rights that are not bestowed upon us by our local, state, and federal lords.
You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. I am not asking you to agree with my opinion on conspiracy theories. I am saddened to read that you, a fellow American, see a "black pill" instead of a shining beacon on a hill. That's too bad. As a country we have warts, but not that many warts.
I concur that you have your opinion as well:)
I think we are in more dire straits than many realize, but I do hope I am wrong. In the meantime all we can do is observe, investigate, learn, and support the people with whom we have contact in our daily lives.
Pretty sure one of them were mentioned in the USNA alumni magazine Shipmate and kicked out of the alumni association . Unsure how they could kick out a lifetime member but I seem to recall it
No one agrees with me, but I have always contended that misconduct, if it can be proven, should result in charges and sentencing for those who did it, BUT NOT vacate the charges in the case they did it for. That is, if you have proven a crime, sentence those who are guilty for that crime.
If someone is falsely convicted of murder due prosecutorial or judicial misconduct?
No. I am talking about dismissing charges which are true because of judicial or prosecutorial misconduct. Never throw out a case that otherwise is proved. If someone ELSE commits a crime, treat that someone else as a criminal. But don't let the original criminal off the hook because of someone else's crime. Not of justice and respect for the law are what you care about.
I have had this thought as well. Rather like a "false claim of rape" the perpetrator of the misconduct should face the same penalty as the original crime would warrant
The what (perversion, corruption of the justice system) is out in the open before us. The WHY it happens remains a mystery. Why did these four get off? Is this a case of George Carlin's "big club, and you ain't in it" protecting their own? The world wonders if that is rain or bodily fluids falling its back...
Because our prosecutors believe they are Soviet prosecutors unencumbered by either the law or the Constitution. The Judge said tough schit, your sin is the greater of the two. (I posted a link above.)
The judge? She sentenced Admiral Gilbeau to jail, so I don't think she plays the club thing.
But, it's going to be interesting to see what happens with the people who went to jail now due the self-admitted prosecutorial misconduct.
"Because our prosecutors believe they are Soviet prosecutors unencumbered by either the law or the Constitution."
^THIS
It's not raining
Answer: they’re getting promoted.
Nah, they all retired so they wouldn’t be in jeopardy of losing that retirement check.
Why are you only focusing on these 4 "clowns?" How about the several "senior" officers who skated because they were flag rank??? That kind of charge just kinda disappears??? No??? Called command climate??? Who generates it?
Read the article…they were not raised.
Your comment does not make sense...
Welcome to America 2023. Maybe it was always that way but it seems that law and justice really took a nose dive the moment Trump rode down the escalator in 2015. It seems that America has become a banana republic.
You mean things like head of Hillary Clinton's "Russia!" manufacturing enterprise inside the FBI was actually a Russian agent? That kind of law and justice?
I mean the Steele dossier being used to spy on a candidate and form the basis of an FBI investigation. I mean the sandbagging of General Flynn. Etc. I expect the leader of the oppostion to be hounded by the authorities in Zimbabwe and Nicaraugua not America.
Yes. All norms and standards of official behavior have been thrown away in the unholy quest of our largely treasonous institutions to deny the American people the President they want.
The US had a good run.
All good things must come to an end.
Well, this was some interesting reading.
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/courts/story/2023-09-06/federal-prosecutors-admit-misconduct-in-fat-leonard-trial-of-4-naval-officers
Corrupt military personnel, corrupt public servants. It appears we too are well on our way to the russification of our society.
True
More incompetence by TPTB
incompetence or malfeasance? They (prosecutors) knew they were breaking the law
"Errors were made?" Oh my goodness!
Time to prosecute the prosecutors, disbar, fine, and maybe imprison them. Prosecutors will continue to abuse the courts until they have skin in the game.
Now do Jan 6.
Aren't we seeing this play out in the quest to convict DJT of something/anything?
Our Justice System is totally corrupt; as in, Just Us!
Yes, the DoJ is wholly corrupt and partisan. Lavrenty would feel quite at home.