I participated in various REFORGERS - both as a fighter pilot in Germany, and a Air Guard trash hauler...
Agree we should recover the capability.
But, we need to have our supplies in theater - at least for the first couple of months of a war. As the Russian-Ukraine war shows, we need a LOT more supplies on hand than the planning has provided for.
Most importantly, we need more heavy strategic airlift aircraft. Boeing cannot build any more C17's AFAIK, and I doubt that LockMart can build another C5....So, what to build? And given recent DoD procurement history, how much will it cost and how long will it be delayed?
Along with the heavy airlifters, we need big-wing strategic tankers....both for the US Air Force, but also the ancillary users like the Navy and even allies...
Trash haulin' and gas-passing may not be sexy but it is absolutely ESSENTIAL to warfighting. I dare say that the state of resupply for US Forces in the Pacific is in pretty poor shape too - insufficient dedicated cargo handling capabilities? And we need to update/replace the Mercy-class hospital ships, ideally with faster, smaller, ships - and more than two.
We have not the sea lift ships, nor the escorts to do anything after a war starts. The Bush administration cancelled the TOMCAT 21, so we don't have a fleet defense fighter either.
We better get cracking, hauling stuff back to Europe, and building fast cargo ships, and real escorts for them, like making NANSEN class DEGs under license from Norway, as JOHN C BUTLER Class DEGs, for our Navy.
How is it that in 2023 there is a belief that America has to be the dominant contributor to Europe's defense? Help Europe? Sure, we can help, but not as the primary contributor. If at this point in history Europe doesn't have the will and the resources to protect itself, with some limited help from us, then why does it deserve to exist? This is not 1945, or even 1960. Europe has a GDP of ~$17 Trillion. Russia has a GDP of ~$1.8 Trillion. WTF? Europe, put on your big boy pants or learn to speak Russian. We must stop allowing Europe to behave like a 21 year old that doesn't want to leave his parents house and make his own way in the world.
A. Logistics infrastructure….at EUCOM, USAREUR and whatever is left at 21st TAACOM…..planners, host nation coordination, ground transport clearances, z.b.
B. Fort to Port..in CONUS and at arrival port and onward movement.
C. A Reserve Component HQs and trained organization to execute the RSOI.
Back in the day, REFORGER 89, our TAACOM up north used 2 ARNG Log Commands to form the RSOI infrastructure from Dutch and Belgian ports, to the POMCUS sites near MGB, then linked up with arrival flights into Köln Bonn Flughafen.
Then the fun began …synchronization of troops, CEGE/POMCUS , then road and rail haul down to the maneuver box.
It was damn difficult then. And we did it every year. I’d speculate there isn’t a greenie on active duty that has ever tasted this…most of us have long moved on.
From 1989 - 1993 I was in the REFORGER Planning Group at USAREUR HQs in Heidelberg, GE. More specifically, I worked closely with FORSCOM to develop the TPFDDs to bring troops to Germany and then send them home. It was a great help when it came time to send VII Corps to Saudi for Desert Storm. The actual ODCSOP planners were familiar with developing TPFDDs for bring troops over, but not sending them out, so all of us Exercise TPFDDers had to build it for them.
Navy is finally, FINALLY, recently looking into airships for logistics; albeit looking at the wrong craft (that double-bubble-butt-blimp monstrosity called "Airlander") But at least I'll give the Navy a plus fer tryin.... Prior to this, the (ahem) Army was heading that way too; and once again, looking at the same wretched piece of....uhm.. nonsense. At that time...the "LEMV"; the precursor to "Airlander"
NO blimps! No BLIMPS! No bloody bloomin BLIMPS! no chinese-lantern-like zeppelins or dirigibles.
stop trying to make glorified balloons do any real work.
and yet, DARPA was on the right track with the "WALRUS" idea. Airships capable of carrying up to 500 tons, able to deliver anywhere on the globe within 72 hours. Anywhere.
No ports needed. No runways needed.
Load em up in Nebraska, fly em over oceans, ice, shores, mountains, anywhere. deliver cargo exactly where it is needed.
AIRSHIPS..................it's a traditional NAVY thing. Needs to be again. Big time.
I live in a town with a Port (RO/RO and other), Fort, and Air Force base with strategic and theater lift. And I recall the hullabaloo back in the 70s and 80s when REFORGER would go down. The population in town dwindled bigtime for the duration. The skies filled with departing airlifters. The rails to the port having been busy before that.
Yes. We need to practice up and conduct more REFOREURs. And let us not forget that these facilities I mention also include the the roundout and primary support for Korea and those troops. Another area that needs some practice and AAR/Troubleshooting. REFORKOR?
I'd like to think that we have smart people that have already done the planning and basics on how we would accomplish either/both. That there are packages of missions predrawn and units designated. That we can do better than a repeat of the grabasstic start of Desert Shield.
Yessir, REFORGER was a big deal here in Tacoma. Always. And in between, each soldier had a closet full of gear for no notice recalls. I am sure that many such skills have long atrophied, but we are in a new age; beyond the rotational deployments to the Sandbox. It's time we figured out the new reality and practice.
Stuttgart planners need to shift exercises. Also, bring in the EPU's from the Navy Reserve. We're going to need liaison personnel in those EUCOM ports. Hopefully, the intact railhead starts on the continent, as well.
Some thoughts. First, directly from the mouth of Biden. First, we are in for a win in Ukraine. Loud and plain. Second: 600 ship navy.
While 747's are being retired, many are not that old that they could be refurbished for military cargo. Heck, the plane was designed, originally to be a cargo plan since the SST was to be the future of passenger travel.
No new large cargo aircraft, the C-5 and C-17 lines are long gone. Better make that tank fit into a C-130. Do we have enough C-130's?
If we decided to build enough sealift, do we have the sailors to man them? Do we have enough escorts to get them across a semi-contested ocean? Do we have enough mine sweepers to clear a lane for them to get into ports?
So we decide by some miracle to fix all of this today and find the cash to do it, money no object, how long will it take?
We have some LCS capacity, not how do we make them a decent ASW escort quickly, the Independence class seem to have a nice flight deck?
Can we buy something off the shelf to make into minesweepers? But that does not solve manning. Do we even have the dock and maintenance capacity for a surge like this?
when I was a social work officer at MEDDAC FT Campbell, I envied my 101st fellow officers went to Germany for Reforger and finally got my chance to go to Germany for Reforger 85. It was amazing in just 2 wk the US airlifted 100,000 American troops to Germany combat ready to meet the Russians and warsaw Pact troops. It was amazing seeing thousands of US tankers airlifted to crew prepositioned tanks. A combination of USAF, commercial US aviation and MAC charter aircraft transporting US troops to and from Germany fully equipped for combat. we gave away one of the most valuable tools that the US had for NATO alliance support. Now with Russia actively threatening western Europe and the massive logistical challenge of supplying Ukraine defense we need the ability to carry out major movement of manpower and materiel
I participated in various REFORGERS - both as a fighter pilot in Germany, and a Air Guard trash hauler...
Agree we should recover the capability.
But, we need to have our supplies in theater - at least for the first couple of months of a war. As the Russian-Ukraine war shows, we need a LOT more supplies on hand than the planning has provided for.
Most importantly, we need more heavy strategic airlift aircraft. Boeing cannot build any more C17's AFAIK, and I doubt that LockMart can build another C5....So, what to build? And given recent DoD procurement history, how much will it cost and how long will it be delayed?
Along with the heavy airlifters, we need big-wing strategic tankers....both for the US Air Force, but also the ancillary users like the Navy and even allies...
Trash haulin' and gas-passing may not be sexy but it is absolutely ESSENTIAL to warfighting. I dare say that the state of resupply for US Forces in the Pacific is in pretty poor shape too - insufficient dedicated cargo handling capabilities? And we need to update/replace the Mercy-class hospital ships, ideally with faster, smaller, ships - and more than two.
We have not the sea lift ships, nor the escorts to do anything after a war starts. The Bush administration cancelled the TOMCAT 21, so we don't have a fleet defense fighter either.
We better get cracking, hauling stuff back to Europe, and building fast cargo ships, and real escorts for them, like making NANSEN class DEGs under license from Norway, as JOHN C BUTLER Class DEGs, for our Navy.
But the Left won't stand for that.
Such exercises do irreparable harm to the Climate!
We should not conduct them until ships are built which can transit the Pacific with zero emissions.
And operated with a gender-fluid crew.
It's a Strategic Priority!!!!
How is it that in 2023 there is a belief that America has to be the dominant contributor to Europe's defense? Help Europe? Sure, we can help, but not as the primary contributor. If at this point in history Europe doesn't have the will and the resources to protect itself, with some limited help from us, then why does it deserve to exist? This is not 1945, or even 1960. Europe has a GDP of ~$17 Trillion. Russia has a GDP of ~$1.8 Trillion. WTF? Europe, put on your big boy pants or learn to speak Russian. We must stop allowing Europe to behave like a 21 year old that doesn't want to leave his parents house and make his own way in the world.
Couple other long poles in the tent..
A. Logistics infrastructure….at EUCOM, USAREUR and whatever is left at 21st TAACOM…..planners, host nation coordination, ground transport clearances, z.b.
B. Fort to Port..in CONUS and at arrival port and onward movement.
C. A Reserve Component HQs and trained organization to execute the RSOI.
Back in the day, REFORGER 89, our TAACOM up north used 2 ARNG Log Commands to form the RSOI infrastructure from Dutch and Belgian ports, to the POMCUS sites near MGB, then linked up with arrival flights into Köln Bonn Flughafen.
Then the fun began …synchronization of troops, CEGE/POMCUS , then road and rail haul down to the maneuver box.
It was damn difficult then. And we did it every year. I’d speculate there isn’t a greenie on active duty that has ever tasted this…most of us have long moved on.
From 1989 - 1993 I was in the REFORGER Planning Group at USAREUR HQs in Heidelberg, GE. More specifically, I worked closely with FORSCOM to develop the TPFDDs to bring troops to Germany and then send them home. It was a great help when it came time to send VII Corps to Saudi for Desert Storm. The actual ODCSOP planners were familiar with developing TPFDDs for bring troops over, but not sending them out, so all of us Exercise TPFDDers had to build it for them.
Navy is finally, FINALLY, recently looking into airships for logistics; albeit looking at the wrong craft (that double-bubble-butt-blimp monstrosity called "Airlander") But at least I'll give the Navy a plus fer tryin.... Prior to this, the (ahem) Army was heading that way too; and once again, looking at the same wretched piece of....uhm.. nonsense. At that time...the "LEMV"; the precursor to "Airlander"
NO blimps! No BLIMPS! No bloody bloomin BLIMPS! no chinese-lantern-like zeppelins or dirigibles.
stop trying to make glorified balloons do any real work.
and yet, DARPA was on the right track with the "WALRUS" idea. Airships capable of carrying up to 500 tons, able to deliver anywhere on the globe within 72 hours. Anywhere.
No ports needed. No runways needed.
Load em up in Nebraska, fly em over oceans, ice, shores, mountains, anywhere. deliver cargo exactly where it is needed.
AIRSHIPS..................it's a traditional NAVY thing. Needs to be again. Big time.
Pedantically it should be REFORPOL, or maybe REFORPOLBALTFIN, but how about REFOREUR?
We need it, but more for the Pacific.
REFORGER? Best I can do is a table top exercise.
Excellent comments and observations all.
I live in a town with a Port (RO/RO and other), Fort, and Air Force base with strategic and theater lift. And I recall the hullabaloo back in the 70s and 80s when REFORGER would go down. The population in town dwindled bigtime for the duration. The skies filled with departing airlifters. The rails to the port having been busy before that.
Yes. We need to practice up and conduct more REFOREURs. And let us not forget that these facilities I mention also include the the roundout and primary support for Korea and those troops. Another area that needs some practice and AAR/Troubleshooting. REFORKOR?
I'd like to think that we have smart people that have already done the planning and basics on how we would accomplish either/both. That there are packages of missions predrawn and units designated. That we can do better than a repeat of the grabasstic start of Desert Shield.
Yessir, REFORGER was a big deal here in Tacoma. Always. And in between, each soldier had a closet full of gear for no notice recalls. I am sure that many such skills have long atrophied, but we are in a new age; beyond the rotational deployments to the Sandbox. It's time we figured out the new reality and practice.
Agree completely CDR.
Stuttgart planners need to shift exercises. Also, bring in the EPU's from the Navy Reserve. We're going to need liaison personnel in those EUCOM ports. Hopefully, the intact railhead starts on the continent, as well.
Some thoughts. First, directly from the mouth of Biden. First, we are in for a win in Ukraine. Loud and plain. Second: 600 ship navy.
While 747's are being retired, many are not that old that they could be refurbished for military cargo. Heck, the plane was designed, originally to be a cargo plan since the SST was to be the future of passenger travel.
No new large cargo aircraft, the C-5 and C-17 lines are long gone. Better make that tank fit into a C-130. Do we have enough C-130's?
If we decided to build enough sealift, do we have the sailors to man them? Do we have enough escorts to get them across a semi-contested ocean? Do we have enough mine sweepers to clear a lane for them to get into ports?
So we decide by some miracle to fix all of this today and find the cash to do it, money no object, how long will it take?
We have some LCS capacity, not how do we make them a decent ASW escort quickly, the Independence class seem to have a nice flight deck?
Can we buy something off the shelf to make into minesweepers? But that does not solve manning. Do we even have the dock and maintenance capacity for a surge like this?
We wont do a sea based Reforger ever again would cause to much disruption at major commercial ports which would cost major business money
when I was a social work officer at MEDDAC FT Campbell, I envied my 101st fellow officers went to Germany for Reforger and finally got my chance to go to Germany for Reforger 85. It was amazing in just 2 wk the US airlifted 100,000 American troops to Germany combat ready to meet the Russians and warsaw Pact troops. It was amazing seeing thousands of US tankers airlifted to crew prepositioned tanks. A combination of USAF, commercial US aviation and MAC charter aircraft transporting US troops to and from Germany fully equipped for combat. we gave away one of the most valuable tools that the US had for NATO alliance support. Now with Russia actively threatening western Europe and the massive logistical challenge of supplying Ukraine defense we need the ability to carry out major movement of manpower and materiel