OK, Derek, I took the challenge. It wasn't until I got halfway though page 4 that "icebreakers" was connected to something other than easing and improving communication for meetings, dating and other social affairs. 😲
What is the strategic importance of the Arctic to the U.S.? To China, to Russia? And how are naval assets best suited, compared to other means, to pursue that interest?
OK, oil (while it lasts) and minerals (such as and where not available elsewhere?). Direct route to attack what—wapitis and narwhals, Eskimos, Canadians? Commerce? Huh? Perhaps you're thinking of the Arctic post-climate change when icebreakers are no longer needed and millions of refugees escaping the furnace of the lower 48 march northward as migrants (or settler-colonialists, your choice)...
I didn't see it addressed in Sal's post, so I figured I'd best ask the old hands here for some background info or links where to find it. So far, nada. You're welcome to educate me.
insanity, and one would hope the AK delegation in Congress would be howling up a storm. Maybe take a $100 mil out of DEI/Culture/Rape "training"/drag queen recruiting to finish that very needed port in Nome? Maybe the Russians and Chinese should send a note asking us where the hell they can dock their invasion force if we don't finish this? That's it, it's prevention of them doing that, how did I miss the genius move by the Army corp of Engineers in strategic thinking there? And note to US shipbuilders, it's becoming more than an embarrassment of late. I get pounded by BIW commercials supporting politicians all day here in Maine, maybe a note to them and their unions reminding them the S. Koreans can build these ships and Japan all day long, maybe it is time to outsource at least part of the fleet, icebreakers included.
Make Elon Musk the Maritime Czar with responsibility for fixing every aspect of the maritime world including shipbuilding, defense, LE, commercial, academies, etc.
At the same time remove every single flag officer and SES who presided over the current situation beginning with the DEI CNO and USCG Commandant. To quote Oliver Cromwell: "In the name of God, go!”
A Tlingit sailor dies in an accident aboard a U.S. whaling ship, his people react by taking hostages and demanding ransom. The Navy is ordered in to rescue the hostages, people tragically die. The hostage takers get a cash settlement and an apology. Sounds familiar, could have happened last year instead of 142 years ago. No lessons learned...if we'd just given the Tlingit the 200 blankets, $90,000 and an apology before 26 October 1882 in exchange for the hostages those 6 children would not have died.
If we wanted an ice breaker with nuclear power in quick order, we could call up the President of Finland Alex Stubb (In addition to his mother tongue of Finnish/Swedish, he is fluent perhaps more so, than most Americans in English, and his French and German, aren't bad either) and we could say "Hey Al we need two of them fancy Ice Breakers with nuke power that you fellers make!" He will say "Now that we are in NATO how soon do you want them?" "Our DNY Finland Oy aka Helsinki Shipyard can have the first vessel to you in 18-24 months, OR we can sell you a couple of older models this still year, and we will build the new ones for ourselves as we have a dog in the Arctic front!" Yes, you see the Finns have been in the ship building business in Helsinki since the mid 1850's or so, give or take a decade. But why cooperate or collaborate with a country and or firms that know what they are doing when Diversity training and cocktail parties in the beltway take precedent. By the way, the Finns make cruise ships that the world uses, think they could make a destroyer...i don't know why don't we ask them. Oh right, the Brass would have to find Finland on a map of the world first.
There was forest products company here in the USA, James River Corporation, it was started in a defunct Paper Mill on the James River in Virginia. The big boss Bob Williams grew the business with many little bolt on mills, and a lot of junk bonds provided by that stalwart of Wall Street Mike Milken. As the Frankenstein of paper companies grew 'Ole Pink Eye" Williams had a slide deck that was infinitely boring but told the James River "Story." As it grew Ole JR focused not on paper making anymore, but on the people, lots of meetings, lots of hand wringing sessions, training, training, JR is great! JR is good! They got so big and bloated they finally basically failed. Hmmm sound familiar? Anyone in the company who could fog on a mirror knew it was a Ponzi scheme with assets in the ground, but no one ever called them on it until...
Sound familiar? As it went in yesterday's post regarding the failed "leadership" of our military managerial class, this ice breaker story could not be more fitting. But, no one is watching the store. Congress needs to haul this bunch of over decorated 3 and 4 star desk bound hero's up to the Hill and simply demand accountably. Don't hold our breath, none of the members of Congress know where Finland is either, and that is even after their many recent junkets to Suomi/Finland.
We are unserious. As Mike Tyson opines, everyone has a plan until they get hit in the head. That punch is coming, we just don't know quite when and where yet. But it is coming. We don't have a plan.
True story, Coastie. I have actually seen something similar done. On a DDG, circa 1968, heavy seas, the JOOD, (LTjg K), called me, the RD2 CIC Watch Supv to the Bridge to explain why our CPA on Skunk Tango (or some such) differed from his solution. Mr. K paused when he noticed that his full coffee cup was "leaking". He raised the cup up high to try to espy where the leak was. He rotated the cup in search of the leak and poured the contents on his head. The issue of the CPA became moot. I went back to CIC, assuming I had been dismissed while he was mopping off his face with a status board rag. Mr. K was prior Enlisted, a former E-4 Cryptologic Technician, I think. We had high hopes for him. That was always the case for one of our own. Heard later that he got out and became a bus driver in San Diego. I cast no aspersions on Mister K as I was geekier than he was (and it took me 17 more years to become a LTjg) Proof here: https://www.navysite.de/cruisebooks/ddg5-69/024.htm
We would need the political will. Something like that was on the table during the previous administration, but the USCG helped to kill it. It also wouldn’t really be possible to so easily order a nuclear icebreaker, as you’d need to source the propulsion plant elsewhere. The Finns could design and build an icebreaker to our needs in short order at a significant discount from what the USCG is paying, though. Finnish designers were partners in the losing bid for the Polar Security Cutter. Lowest cost bid won over the experienced companies. So many missed opportunities.
Admiralette Fagan is a giant skin tag in a uniform. She is obsessed by tokenism and woke wankery, and she's exactly what you'd expect if you slapped four stars on a DEI chekist and put her in command.
Every three and four star needs to get the heave-ho. All of the two-stars and below down to and including O-5s (INCLUDING THEIR SPOUSES) must be ruthlessly screened for the woke mind virus. Anyone who's infected, or married to one of the infected, must be shitcanned.
Don't think that this is harsh. The USCG's WWII Commandant, Russ Waesche, was deep selected in 1936 as a Commander and was given two stars on the spot. He got a third star in 1942 and by war's end he had four.
The CG can afford to suffer a massive bloodletting in the flag officer ranks, because those ranks are bloated beyond sanity. A service with 40,000 bodies doesn't need a pair of Admirals, a quartet of Vice Admirals, 20 two-stars, and 19 one-stars.
There are 381 Captains on both the Active Duty Promotion List and the Inactive Duty Promotion List (that is, reservists). That's one Captain for every 106 Coasties.
"...a giant skin tag in a uniform". Thank you for that first sentence, but Ouch! Even so, I can recall in the Chief's Mess, at the Deck Plate level and even the Wardroom in private among trusted friends we sometimes used harsher, more primitive terms. And I am thankful now, that since our service, in retirement, that most of us have mellowed and have experienced personal growth, becoming more civil and circumspect in speech...people like me, you, a couple of the Warrants and others previously a little rough around the edges. I see you even gendered xer correctly too. Although -ette might be viewed as a diminution. How about "Admiralissimo, -a or -e."? I still shout "Bravo!" at the end of an opera. "Brava" or "Brave" just doesn't seem right to me. I remain terrible at this new gender thing.
No, I’ve been focused on polar icebreakers and ice-capable vessels. I have mentioned tangentially the Mackinaw, as her design comes from a Finnish concept and includes Azipods. I’ve been living in Finland for the past 7+ years, so what I know and learn firsthand is reflected in what I write about. As the Finns (often in cooperation with other European yards) typically design and build ships for the Baltic and Polar usage, it’s what I know.
https://www.chinatalk.media/p/industrial-icebreaker-policy not enough but there are people trying to be creative
Want to learn just how unserious we are? Google “icebreakers”😢
OK, Derek, I took the challenge. It wasn't until I got halfway though page 4 that "icebreakers" was connected to something other than easing and improving communication for meetings, dating and other social affairs. 😲
What is the strategic importance of the Arctic to the U.S.? To China, to Russia? And how are naval assets best suited, compared to other means, to pursue that interest?
Will start with Hydrocarbons, from their much needed minerals, & strategically is the most direct route for both attack & commerce.
OK, oil (while it lasts) and minerals (such as and where not available elsewhere?). Direct route to attack what—wapitis and narwhals, Eskimos, Canadians? Commerce? Huh? Perhaps you're thinking of the Arctic post-climate change when icebreakers are no longer needed and millions of refugees escaping the furnace of the lower 48 march northward as migrants (or settler-colonialists, your choice)...
"Direct route to attack what—wapitis and narwhals, Eskimos, Canadians? Commerce?"
Those Chinese icebreakers could easily be used as launching points against
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Warning_System
Mid 1970’s I served in Alaskan Air Command “host support” for part of DEW line. Next assignment was CONUS isolated at a SAGE radar site.
Good times!
Wait wait wait. Are you asking that question seriously? [blinking in amazement]
I didn't see it addressed in Sal's post, so I figured I'd best ask the old hands here for some background info or links where to find it. So far, nada. You're welcome to educate me.
"Starting construction without a finalized design? Good thing that this approach has a good track record."
just ask the scots how well that works. Stick Scotland Ferry Fiasco in your search engine of choice or just read Al Beeb - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-62839605
Thank you. Didn’t need to work out this morning given how much you are able to raise my heartbeat.
We have really become a nation led by fools. Unserious people that know zero history other than Zinn.
Zinn makes up history.
I remember his name, vaguely, from the Vietnam War era. A zero kind of guy.
insanity, and one would hope the AK delegation in Congress would be howling up a storm. Maybe take a $100 mil out of DEI/Culture/Rape "training"/drag queen recruiting to finish that very needed port in Nome? Maybe the Russians and Chinese should send a note asking us where the hell they can dock their invasion force if we don't finish this? That's it, it's prevention of them doing that, how did I miss the genius move by the Army corp of Engineers in strategic thinking there? And note to US shipbuilders, it's becoming more than an embarrassment of late. I get pounded by BIW commercials supporting politicians all day here in Maine, maybe a note to them and their unions reminding them the S. Koreans can build these ships and Japan all day long, maybe it is time to outsource at least part of the fleet, icebreakers included.
Happily, no mention of Canada’s abysmal performance on this file
America's Hat hasn't been serious about its navy for generations.
Since "Unification" began in 1964.
Make Elon Musk the Maritime Czar with responsibility for fixing every aspect of the maritime world including shipbuilding, defense, LE, commercial, academies, etc.
At the same time remove every single flag officer and SES who presided over the current situation beginning with the DEI CNO and USCG Commandant. To quote Oliver Cromwell: "In the name of God, go!”
Who says we are not serious?
Our purported Commander in Chief is on an apology tour: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2024/10/28/navy-apology-alaska-angoon-village-tlingit-bombardment-1882/75896393007/
What more can you ask of a serious nation?
I wonder if he will apologize to the South for the war crimes committed by Sherman and Sheridan.
No, because those were Raaaaacist White reactionaries who are not pets of the progressive political class.
A Tlingit sailor dies in an accident aboard a U.S. whaling ship, his people react by taking hostages and demanding ransom. The Navy is ordered in to rescue the hostages, people tragically die. The hostage takers get a cash settlement and an apology. Sounds familiar, could have happened last year instead of 142 years ago. No lessons learned...if we'd just given the Tlingit the 200 blankets, $90,000 and an apology before 26 October 1882 in exchange for the hostages those 6 children would not have died.
Looks like the Tlingit have a navy and RADM Sucato was a guest as Lead Oar. It's a start in networking for new alliances. https://allhands.navy.mil/Media/Gallery/igphoto/2003457788/
If we wanted an ice breaker with nuclear power in quick order, we could call up the President of Finland Alex Stubb (In addition to his mother tongue of Finnish/Swedish, he is fluent perhaps more so, than most Americans in English, and his French and German, aren't bad either) and we could say "Hey Al we need two of them fancy Ice Breakers with nuke power that you fellers make!" He will say "Now that we are in NATO how soon do you want them?" "Our DNY Finland Oy aka Helsinki Shipyard can have the first vessel to you in 18-24 months, OR we can sell you a couple of older models this still year, and we will build the new ones for ourselves as we have a dog in the Arctic front!" Yes, you see the Finns have been in the ship building business in Helsinki since the mid 1850's or so, give or take a decade. But why cooperate or collaborate with a country and or firms that know what they are doing when Diversity training and cocktail parties in the beltway take precedent. By the way, the Finns make cruise ships that the world uses, think they could make a destroyer...i don't know why don't we ask them. Oh right, the Brass would have to find Finland on a map of the world first.
There was forest products company here in the USA, James River Corporation, it was started in a defunct Paper Mill on the James River in Virginia. The big boss Bob Williams grew the business with many little bolt on mills, and a lot of junk bonds provided by that stalwart of Wall Street Mike Milken. As the Frankenstein of paper companies grew 'Ole Pink Eye" Williams had a slide deck that was infinitely boring but told the James River "Story." As it grew Ole JR focused not on paper making anymore, but on the people, lots of meetings, lots of hand wringing sessions, training, training, JR is great! JR is good! They got so big and bloated they finally basically failed. Hmmm sound familiar? Anyone in the company who could fog on a mirror knew it was a Ponzi scheme with assets in the ground, but no one ever called them on it until...
Sound familiar? As it went in yesterday's post regarding the failed "leadership" of our military managerial class, this ice breaker story could not be more fitting. But, no one is watching the store. Congress needs to haul this bunch of over decorated 3 and 4 star desk bound hero's up to the Hill and simply demand accountably. Don't hold our breath, none of the members of Congress know where Finland is either, and that is even after their many recent junkets to Suomi/Finland.
We are unserious. As Mike Tyson opines, everyone has a plan until they get hit in the head. That punch is coming, we just don't know quite when and where yet. But it is coming. We don't have a plan.
It sounds like a great idea - go to the people who know what they are doing. when it comes to ice breakers.
However, the recent frigate program also sounded like a great idea - go to the people who have built proven warships.
Unfortunately, that program has become another example of the Navy's inability to do anything right.
America's acquisitions geniuses would be unable to figure out how to pour stale piss out of a boot, even if the instructions were printed on the sole.
Gettysburg?
True story, Coastie. I have actually seen something similar done. On a DDG, circa 1968, heavy seas, the JOOD, (LTjg K), called me, the RD2 CIC Watch Supv to the Bridge to explain why our CPA on Skunk Tango (or some such) differed from his solution. Mr. K paused when he noticed that his full coffee cup was "leaking". He raised the cup up high to try to espy where the leak was. He rotated the cup in search of the leak and poured the contents on his head. The issue of the CPA became moot. I went back to CIC, assuming I had been dismissed while he was mopping off his face with a status board rag. Mr. K was prior Enlisted, a former E-4 Cryptologic Technician, I think. We had high hopes for him. That was always the case for one of our own. Heard later that he got out and became a bus driver in San Diego. I cast no aspersions on Mister K as I was geekier than he was (and it took me 17 more years to become a LTjg) Proof here: https://www.navysite.de/cruisebooks/ddg5-69/024.htm
We would need the political will. Something like that was on the table during the previous administration, but the USCG helped to kill it. It also wouldn’t really be possible to so easily order a nuclear icebreaker, as you’d need to source the propulsion plant elsewhere. The Finns could design and build an icebreaker to our needs in short order at a significant discount from what the USCG is paying, though. Finnish designers were partners in the losing bid for the Polar Security Cutter. Lowest cost bid won over the experienced companies. So many missed opportunities.
Another example of being unable to accomplish anything.
China is likely to own Siberia after the collapse of Muscovy's empire, thus the interest.
One could ask where the Canadians are.......
You know, like defending their national resources and border.
The Trudeaus - father and son - wrecked Canada.
CGC priorities are diversity over everything. She should cross deck to the DoD.
Speed her across the deck, over the rail, and overboard.
We already have our DEI female cohort.
Touché
Yeah! It's Happy Tuesday.
Admiralette Fagan is a giant skin tag in a uniform. She is obsessed by tokenism and woke wankery, and she's exactly what you'd expect if you slapped four stars on a DEI chekist and put her in command.
Every three and four star needs to get the heave-ho. All of the two-stars and below down to and including O-5s (INCLUDING THEIR SPOUSES) must be ruthlessly screened for the woke mind virus. Anyone who's infected, or married to one of the infected, must be shitcanned.
Don't think that this is harsh. The USCG's WWII Commandant, Russ Waesche, was deep selected in 1936 as a Commander and was given two stars on the spot. He got a third star in 1942 and by war's end he had four.
The CG can afford to suffer a massive bloodletting in the flag officer ranks, because those ranks are bloated beyond sanity. A service with 40,000 bodies doesn't need a pair of Admirals, a quartet of Vice Admirals, 20 two-stars, and 19 one-stars.
That's one flag officer for every 901 Coasties.
You could easily halve that. That should be the ratio for full birds to the full force.
Junior officers will be cut before flag officers.
Enlisted will be cut before any officers.
And no civilians (especially SES) will ever be cut.
There are 381 Captains on both the Active Duty Promotion List and the Inactive Duty Promotion List (that is, reservists). That's one Captain for every 106 Coasties.
"...a giant skin tag in a uniform". Thank you for that first sentence, but Ouch! Even so, I can recall in the Chief's Mess, at the Deck Plate level and even the Wardroom in private among trusted friends we sometimes used harsher, more primitive terms. And I am thankful now, that since our service, in retirement, that most of us have mellowed and have experienced personal growth, becoming more civil and circumspect in speech...people like me, you, a couple of the Warrants and others previously a little rough around the edges. I see you even gendered xer correctly too. Although -ette might be viewed as a diminution. How about "Admiralissimo, -a or -e."? I still shout "Bravo!" at the end of an opera. "Brava" or "Brave" just doesn't seem right to me. I remain terrible at this new gender thing.
I’ve been covering the debacle of the USCG’s icebreaker program for those of you who want to know more:
https://sixtydegreesnorth.substack.com/
Have you also been covering the Great Lakes ice breakers or the lack thereof?
No, I’ve been focused on polar icebreakers and ice-capable vessels. I have mentioned tangentially the Mackinaw, as her design comes from a Finnish concept and includes Azipods. I’ve been living in Finland for the past 7+ years, so what I know and learn firsthand is reflected in what I write about. As the Finns (often in cooperation with other European yards) typically design and build ships for the Baltic and Polar usage, it’s what I know.
Too bad. The Great Lakes are our forgotten sea.
The ice breaker Erika Kobasic was built in 1939!