Before I even got to the end of the article I was thinking, "well, if we hadn't closed Mare Island and Charleston, we'd still have at least that many dry docks in nuclear-capable shipyards." That Peace Dividend just keeps on paying...
I've said this before on previous posts on the same subject but the Navy can thank it's lucky star that Portsmouth NSY wasn't BRAC'd as well as the Navy wanted in the early 00s.
Add in the inevitable delays, and it looks worse. Thankfully, the SSBN refueling program is complete, with Louisiana completing hers. My ustafish should have been prepping for DASO when I left active duty, but were still in the yards. My estimate is that any one boat could be two or three months late, making this work.
I think we’re regretting selling Charleston more and more.
FWIW, Detyens (now located in the old Charleston Naval Shipyard facilities) does a lot of Navy and Coastie work. For the Navy, it seems to be mostly MSC ships.
You again put your faith in the world’s worst customer. I would risk working with the world’s worst MIC contractor and ask them how much they might scale up xluuv without increasing risk.
And we can build SSKs with what spare industrial capacity? Our current defense contractors can't even build a frigate. Go to Chicago and you can probably dig up some of the institutional memory of the Tang-class. I hear the engineers, draftsmen, and welders still vote. Maybe they're patriotic too!
Waste of resources. Diesel boats flat out lack the capabilities of SSNs. Current AIP or high capacity battery equipped boats can lurk for a couple of weeks, but chasing down contacts and evading counter attack would quickly use up their battery capacity. Conventional submarines are what you use when you can't afford or don't have the ability to build nuclear powered boats.
We all know why CT still has any sort of military industrial base in New London, the late Sen Joe Lieberman. SUBASE was on the BRAC list and he pulled it off.
But the larger issue is a skilled workforce. HII has a 30% workforce turnover annually for example. For all the illegally forgiven loans to Queer Art History majors, it would have been better for skilled labor education. And the Navy USED to have shipyard repair sailors in large numbers, but we continue to relieve sailors’ ability to repair the equipment they use. Instead, we have YNSN Smuckatelly on fire watch for his entire first enlistment. Just look at the Quality of Service efforts going on.
That said, taking money from hardworking tradesmen, customer service, bank tellers, and industrial workers to give it to privileged university types is reprehensible and unconscionable.
If the need is in the Pacific, the new drydocks need to be in the Pacific. Putting them in the Caribbean means putting the repair assets on the wrong side of a maritime choke point. I hate to say it, but we either need Mare Island back or get Adelaide spun up to speed at larger size than the Australians envision.
"There has also been discussion about reactivating facilities associated with the former Mare Island Shipyard north of San Francisco. The area features two large drydocks in working order and still used by the government for overhauls of Coast Guard ships. Yet almost all the rest of the old Navy yard, the machine shops and warehouses that are essential components for ship and submarine repair, have been sold off and developed for other purposes. Local political leaders have stated that they could recreate the old yard in the aggregate by calling upon industrial capacity across the region to create a modern “distributed Navy yard.”
I would be very interested in seeing where this line of thinking came from, where regional manufacturing would be an option to re-opening Mare Island. The location is isolated from the surrounding area, this fact is what made it quite suitable for nuclear submarine work in its history. Most of the tenants on property are on short-term leases and is underutilized or, not utilized at all, lots of empty/unused buildings. The machinery shops and spaces may have had its tooling sold-off, this means modernization in both tooling and format will be easier. US shipyards are accused of being antiquated and behind, Mare Island can be a clean slate re-start towards maintenance modernization.
I have two words for the leases: Eminent Domain. National security is one of the highest possible reasons to use that power. It's not cheap, but it can expedite the process. If ever there was something that needed expediting, it's recapitalizing our repair capacity.
Another possible area that could be converted to ship repair usage is Portland, OR.
The container terminal is rapidly loosing contracts and few container ships call there due to its geographic challenges. Much faster to move freight/cargo through Seattle/Tacoma due to direct rail lines and freeway network. Vigor Marine currently does work on USNS ships as they have the largest floating dry-dock on the West Coast. Biggest challenge is navigating the Columbia River Bar and heading up river.
I wouldn't call the ILWU suicidally dysfunctional as much as they're sitting-pretty with arguably the most plum of shipping port contracts. Oakland and LA/LB go thru their contract headaches seemingly every 5-yrs.
That said, PDX has been in decline for years, and the unions don't control ship schedules. Ships unloading in PDX still have to negotiate rail/trucking routes along the Columbia River and get over the Rockies. Running freight through SEA/Tac area is much easier.
We use to build and repair subs at Mare Island. It still exists but in private control. Last time I looked Hunter's Point was mostly still there. All the machinery is gone, but some of the buildings and all of the drydocks are still there. It would be much cheaper to start with a site with drydocks. Buildings go up fast and machinery can be moved in.
Considering the coming war is a Pacific Ocean war, seems to me any effort to open a new yard ought to be on the West Coast.
Any why can't we expand the work forces at the shipyards we still do have? If we started recruiting and training now, in a year we could have hundreds of additional workers. If you look at the drydocks existing now, public and private, many are idle or used for storage.
We had a lot of stupid people in the 1990s. Politicians, defense department and admirals. Besides poorly thought out base closings we got the LCS and Zumwalt classes.
Minor radioactive contamination is a lot more of a problem for young kids living there than it is for trained staff with dosimeters. It's all a political issue, you might have to change laws to remove the ability of Chinese agents and environmentalists (but I repeat myself) to interfere with the facility.
No chance Hunter's Point gets re-activated. While the property is vast, the amount of contamination is much too great. The other issue is attracting and retaining a qualified workforce, SF and the Peninsula has minimal blue-collar workforce and most labor is light industry, administrative and service.
You’d have to pay California wages. As I said, it’s a political problem. If the politicians want a major shipyard there it can be brought back. If you have to remove the land from CAs rules, congress can do that. Doesn’t mean it will be easy, cheap or done without a fight.
Last time I was at Mare Island drydocks were still in place although machinery probably gone. Larger problem is California politicians probably wouldn't welcome nucs of any kind!
The feather in the cap has been Rep Garamendi has been an advocate of getting Mare Island more work and one of the few members in the House with some awareness of maritime/naval needs. He accompanied the SECNAV when he toured the region last year as both Mare Island and the old Kaiser yard in Richmond are in his district.
Ironic, this. Just 24 hours ago, I spent a fair amount of time investigating......
U.S. XLUUV "Orca"
Australian "Ghost Shark"
Northrop "Manta"
since we have so little time; and so little in the way of fielding, maintaining, supporting full sized manned subs...........we'd better get on the stick with unmanned alternative-supplemental craft.
Australia’s is being done in Australia by Anduril which is in Orange County. This is also where Boeing makes the XLUUV. This team makes more sense for AUKUS than the main gig.
In addition to the revitalization, let's add something else to the checklist that can be done by people like you, Sal, and like Capt Hendrix. Let's start embarrassing the sh!t out of the legacy of the people who did this. Maybe, just maybe, if that tweets enough egos, it will help slow any repetition. I doubt it, but why not try?
Much like Vern Clark, Greenert and Mabus should rightly be called-out for the LCS disaster, those advocates of the BRAC yard closures should be named and shamed as well.
Brettbaker: "Time for a crash program to build conventional subs for forward deployment. Y'all know I'm right."
The threat of the PLAN is growing with every passing year, and we don't have the fifteen to twenty years it will take to competely undo thirty years of bad decision making. Modify one of the German, the Japanese, or the South Korean diesel/AIP submarine designs for US Navy use and build them under license at a partially reactivated Charleston navy yard.
Have POTUS/CIC issue a directive which cuts the DOD 5000 process for these diesel/AIP boats in ways similar to what the USAF did for the B-21. Put Admiral Rickover 2.0 in charge of the program; i.e. put someone in charge who has what it takes to make good decisions in a timely manner and be right most of the time.
OK, does anyone here honestly think that the Biden Administration's DOD would ever go for this kind of accelerated submarine acquisition program, even if the Congress could be convinced to fund it?
Personally, I don't think so. Disruptive thinkers in the mold of Admiral Sims and Admiral Rickover have no place in the Biden Pentagon. (To be fair about it, disruptive thinkers haven't had a place for a long time. That said, the situation is worse under Biden.)
The people now in charge of Biden's DOD are too busy defending the institution against constructive change to ever break out of the mold of relentlessly defending the MIC status quo to the deteriment of dealing with the ever-growing Chinese threat.
Here is what we face. The DOD's own bureaucracy and its own basic approach to doing business must be shattered and then rebuilt as one among several first steps in dealing with the ever-growing maritime threat of the Chinese and the PLAN.
"Peace Dividend" indeed. Lots of spare money to buy votes. The USCG decided they no longer needed an ASW capability, and now these newest National Security Cutters are incapable of making an urgent attack.
Keep tellin' ya', just find the most corrupt east and west coast cities and promise them tens of thousands of union government employees locked into voting for them forever. Toss in a bit more grift for votech training for the teacher's unions, and it's a sure bet. Just make sure it's not in an area where the donor class will get in a snit because they can see it.
Edit: btw, are we wasting manpower by fully manning the hulls that lost their certifications.
Where's the problem Tom?This is fixing a national problem by using avarice to create jobs, and it creates the dedicated, layoff proof workforce in the government yards we all want.
Insulting your fellow americans is not a good way to bring them around to your position. Perhaps you could find a way to make your case without insult or invective.
For example. Liberals are no fans of standing armies; right wingers are for a strong defense. If only there was a force, recognised in the constitution, that would be difficult to turn on the population, yet could provide a strong defense. Humm.
Perhaps you should take it up with the liberals in Congress who have failed to discharge their Constitutional duties. I'm merely suggesting a realpolitk solution that offers something to the coastal political elite that gives them something in return as a compromise. Who doesn't like more jobs and education? Isn't this the compromise our founding fathers worked so hard for?
Realpolitk is for your enemy. Democrats are Americans. Treating us like we are your enemies is a path to a second civil war. In that case, Democrat blood won't be the only blood spilled. We saw the best you got on January 6, and they were a bunch of goobers.
Here is my point. We need to find folks running for Congress who feel in their bones the effect of seapower, folks who know that it is not airwings or escort ships, but airwings and escort ships. Folks are running for office right now, primaries have folks out on the hustings. Go to a meeting. Ask the question "do you see a need for a navy in our nation's future?" Ignore the R or D; decide on the answer given to that question.
Gee Tom, I'm confused. How does Jan 6th factor into this? Don't we both want government owned yards with a stable well trained workforce? My proposal merely gets the local stakeholders to buy into the program by appealing to their own interests. WIFM is always a powerful motivator isn't it? After all how is this different than unions working with the CDC on school closures. Everyone likes proactive stakeholders.
Tom, to be fair, 600,000+ people don't show up to an insurrection without arms. What we saw on 1/6/21 was a lot of people angry at a number of stolen elections, who showed up to protest because they thought they still lived in a Constitutional Republic.
If you are looking for Democrats to start a second Civil War, I'm afraid they may face a more competent and serious opposition than your so-called "goobers."
Dare I posit that "Insulting your fellow americans is not a good way to bring them around to your position?" You've made this assertion a mere comment prior in this thread.
He is not trying to convert them, he is suggesting trying to get them to do something by using their own motivations. They already know they are corrupt. They also know we already know they are corrupt. They don't care. "Sticks and stones..." and all that.
Is there a human activity in which folks don't steal? Priests doing God's work steal. Freaking naval officers steal. Cf. Fat Leonard.
Workers have the right to bargain collectively. Study your American history. When workers are denied the right to bargain peacefully, they turn to violence. Read about the Colorado mining wars where the brave workers fought off the Colorado national guard.
Love this!
Before I even got to the end of the article I was thinking, "well, if we hadn't closed Mare Island and Charleston, we'd still have at least that many dry docks in nuclear-capable shipyards." That Peace Dividend just keeps on paying...
I've said this before on previous posts on the same subject but the Navy can thank it's lucky star that Portsmouth NSY wasn't BRAC'd as well as the Navy wanted in the early 00s.
Plus George Mitchell as President of the Senate didn’t hurt either.
Frankly, Portsmouth probably should have been closed and Charleston kept as it was more versatile and in a better climate.
Clinton had his share of blame as well....selling the 'peace dividend' while selling LORAL optics to Chyna
They also wanted to BRAC Groton and move everything to Kings Bay. Glad that didn't happen.
Would you sabotage West Coast, Hawaii and Philippine dry docks and floating docks as part of your advance or first strike planning?
All of them.
Add in the inevitable delays, and it looks worse. Thankfully, the SSBN refueling program is complete, with Louisiana completing hers. My ustafish should have been prepping for DASO when I left active duty, but were still in the yards. My estimate is that any one boat could be two or three months late, making this work.
I think we’re regretting selling Charleston more and more.
FWIW, Detyens (now located in the old Charleston Naval Shipyard facilities) does a lot of Navy and Coastie work. For the Navy, it seems to be mostly MSC ships.
According to Plan? Lowering the carbon emissions? Biden and OC would believe that...
Time for a crash program to build conventional subs for forward deployment. Y'all know I'm right.
You again put your faith in the world’s worst customer. I would risk working with the world’s worst MIC contractor and ask them how much they might scale up xluuv without increasing risk.
And we can build SSKs with what spare industrial capacity? Our current defense contractors can't even build a frigate. Go to Chicago and you can probably dig up some of the institutional memory of the Tang-class. I hear the engineers, draftsmen, and welders still vote. Maybe they're patriotic too!
Barbel class would be better!
Buy some off Taiwan's line when they are done.
Get moving with Anduril and Boeing in the OC. Unmanned.
Bingo.
Not certain they would be survivable--from a diesel and nuclear submariner.
Might do a bit better without a crew. That has to save on the hotel load drawing on the batteries.
Waste of resources. Diesel boats flat out lack the capabilities of SSNs. Current AIP or high capacity battery equipped boats can lurk for a couple of weeks, but chasing down contacts and evading counter attack would quickly use up their battery capacity. Conventional submarines are what you use when you can't afford or don't have the ability to build nuclear powered boats.
Or maybe can't afford or don't have the ability to build enough nukes?
Very succinct and well put.
Can't go back, indeed. The Long Beach Naval Shipyard was turned into a COSCO container farm
OMG
We all know why CT still has any sort of military industrial base in New London, the late Sen Joe Lieberman. SUBASE was on the BRAC list and he pulled it off.
But the larger issue is a skilled workforce. HII has a 30% workforce turnover annually for example. For all the illegally forgiven loans to Queer Art History majors, it would have been better for skilled labor education. And the Navy USED to have shipyard repair sailors in large numbers, but we continue to relieve sailors’ ability to repair the equipment they use. Instead, we have YNSN Smuckatelly on fire watch for his entire first enlistment. Just look at the Quality of Service efforts going on.
Hey now, not all Art History majors are queer! :)
That said, taking money from hardworking tradesmen, customer service, bank tellers, and industrial workers to give it to privileged university types is reprehensible and unconscionable.
Well I know one school nurse that got some back. I know another nurse that got zilch because we just paid it off.
If the need is in the Pacific, the new drydocks need to be in the Pacific. Putting them in the Caribbean means putting the repair assets on the wrong side of a maritime choke point. I hate to say it, but we either need Mare Island back or get Adelaide spun up to speed at larger size than the Australians envision.
"There has also been discussion about reactivating facilities associated with the former Mare Island Shipyard north of San Francisco. The area features two large drydocks in working order and still used by the government for overhauls of Coast Guard ships. Yet almost all the rest of the old Navy yard, the machine shops and warehouses that are essential components for ship and submarine repair, have been sold off and developed for other purposes. Local political leaders have stated that they could recreate the old yard in the aggregate by calling upon industrial capacity across the region to create a modern “distributed Navy yard.”
I would be very interested in seeing where this line of thinking came from, where regional manufacturing would be an option to re-opening Mare Island. The location is isolated from the surrounding area, this fact is what made it quite suitable for nuclear submarine work in its history. Most of the tenants on property are on short-term leases and is underutilized or, not utilized at all, lots of empty/unused buildings. The machinery shops and spaces may have had its tooling sold-off, this means modernization in both tooling and format will be easier. US shipyards are accused of being antiquated and behind, Mare Island can be a clean slate re-start towards maintenance modernization.
I have two words for the leases: Eminent Domain. National security is one of the highest possible reasons to use that power. It's not cheap, but it can expedite the process. If ever there was something that needed expediting, it's recapitalizing our repair capacity.
Yeah, and we need to look a that across the board, matching underused yards with potential labor markets.
Another possible area that could be converted to ship repair usage is Portland, OR.
The container terminal is rapidly loosing contracts and few container ships call there due to its geographic challenges. Much faster to move freight/cargo through Seattle/Tacoma due to direct rail lines and freeway network. Vigor Marine currently does work on USNS ships as they have the largest floating dry-dock on the West Coast. Biggest challenge is navigating the Columbia River Bar and heading up river.
It isn't the geographic challenges so much as it's the local longshoreman's union, which is suicidally dysfunctional.
I wouldn't call the ILWU suicidally dysfunctional as much as they're sitting-pretty with arguably the most plum of shipping port contracts. Oakland and LA/LB go thru their contract headaches seemingly every 5-yrs.
That said, PDX has been in decline for years, and the unions don't control ship schedules. Ships unloading in PDX still have to negotiate rail/trucking routes along the Columbia River and get over the Rockies. Running freight through SEA/Tac area is much easier.
We use to build and repair subs at Mare Island. It still exists but in private control. Last time I looked Hunter's Point was mostly still there. All the machinery is gone, but some of the buildings and all of the drydocks are still there. It would be much cheaper to start with a site with drydocks. Buildings go up fast and machinery can be moved in.
Considering the coming war is a Pacific Ocean war, seems to me any effort to open a new yard ought to be on the West Coast.
Any why can't we expand the work forces at the shipyards we still do have? If we started recruiting and training now, in a year we could have hundreds of additional workers. If you look at the drydocks existing now, public and private, many are idle or used for storage.
We had a lot of stupid people in the 1990s. Politicians, defense department and admirals. Besides poorly thought out base closings we got the LCS and Zumwalt classes.
I think Hunter’s Point has a contamination problem.
Minor radioactive contamination is a lot more of a problem for young kids living there than it is for trained staff with dosimeters. It's all a political issue, you might have to change laws to remove the ability of Chinese agents and environmentalists (but I repeat myself) to interfere with the facility.
Correct.
No chance Hunter's Point gets re-activated. While the property is vast, the amount of contamination is much too great. The other issue is attracting and retaining a qualified workforce, SF and the Peninsula has minimal blue-collar workforce and most labor is light industry, administrative and service.
You’d have to pay California wages. As I said, it’s a political problem. If the politicians want a major shipyard there it can be brought back. If you have to remove the land from CAs rules, congress can do that. Doesn’t mean it will be easy, cheap or done without a fight.
Not California wages - San Fran wages
If you provide housing as part of the job... Take back over Treasure Island and the eminent domain the area outside the gate.
Yeah. Too many years of democrats.
Last time I was at Mare Island drydocks were still in place although machinery probably gone. Larger problem is California politicians probably wouldn't welcome nucs of any kind!
The feather in the cap has been Rep Garamendi has been an advocate of getting Mare Island more work and one of the few members in the House with some awareness of maritime/naval needs. He accompanied the SECNAV when he toured the region last year as both Mare Island and the old Kaiser yard in Richmond are in his district.
Ironic, this. Just 24 hours ago, I spent a fair amount of time investigating......
U.S. XLUUV "Orca"
Australian "Ghost Shark"
Northrop "Manta"
since we have so little time; and so little in the way of fielding, maintaining, supporting full sized manned subs...........we'd better get on the stick with unmanned alternative-supplemental craft.
Australia’s is being done in Australia by Anduril which is in Orange County. This is also where Boeing makes the XLUUV. This team makes more sense for AUKUS than the main gig.
Minor point: Hunters Point (SFNSY) is actually on the south end of San Francisco. Mare Island NSY was located to the northwest near Vallejo.
Of course I'd need to post a correction to my post about a correction. Mare Island and Vallejo are northEAST of San Francisco. 🙄
Never give up, Never Surrender!
In addition to the revitalization, let's add something else to the checklist that can be done by people like you, Sal, and like Capt Hendrix. Let's start embarrassing the sh!t out of the legacy of the people who did this. Maybe, just maybe, if that tweets enough egos, it will help slow any repetition. I doubt it, but why not try?
Much like Vern Clark, Greenert and Mabus should rightly be called-out for the LCS disaster, those advocates of the BRAC yard closures should be named and shamed as well.
Brettbaker: "Time for a crash program to build conventional subs for forward deployment. Y'all know I'm right."
The threat of the PLAN is growing with every passing year, and we don't have the fifteen to twenty years it will take to competely undo thirty years of bad decision making. Modify one of the German, the Japanese, or the South Korean diesel/AIP submarine designs for US Navy use and build them under license at a partially reactivated Charleston navy yard.
Have POTUS/CIC issue a directive which cuts the DOD 5000 process for these diesel/AIP boats in ways similar to what the USAF did for the B-21. Put Admiral Rickover 2.0 in charge of the program; i.e. put someone in charge who has what it takes to make good decisions in a timely manner and be right most of the time.
OK, does anyone here honestly think that the Biden Administration's DOD would ever go for this kind of accelerated submarine acquisition program, even if the Congress could be convinced to fund it?
Personally, I don't think so. Disruptive thinkers in the mold of Admiral Sims and Admiral Rickover have no place in the Biden Pentagon. (To be fair about it, disruptive thinkers haven't had a place for a long time. That said, the situation is worse under Biden.)
The people now in charge of Biden's DOD are too busy defending the institution against constructive change to ever break out of the mold of relentlessly defending the MIC status quo to the deteriment of dealing with the ever-growing Chinese threat.
Here is what we face. The DOD's own bureaucracy and its own basic approach to doing business must be shattered and then rebuilt as one among several first steps in dealing with the ever-growing maritime threat of the Chinese and the PLAN.
They will look at hat as a threat to AUKUS.
100%
"Peace Dividend" indeed. Lots of spare money to buy votes. The USCG decided they no longer needed an ASW capability, and now these newest National Security Cutters are incapable of making an urgent attack.
Not to mention that the CG enlisted force has zero sonar technicians.
Yes. I was the leading sonarman on Taney 1967-68 before I went to OCS. It was in the 90s when they converted them all to OS.
Keep tellin' ya', just find the most corrupt east and west coast cities and promise them tens of thousands of union government employees locked into voting for them forever. Toss in a bit more grift for votech training for the teacher's unions, and it's a sure bet. Just make sure it's not in an area where the donor class will get in a snit because they can see it.
Edit: btw, are we wasting manpower by fully manning the hulls that lost their certifications.
Well, that's a great plan. Insult the folks you need on your side. Great politics.
Where's the problem Tom?This is fixing a national problem by using avarice to create jobs, and it creates the dedicated, layoff proof workforce in the government yards we all want.
Don't forget the vodka rations. Or maybe cannabis now days.
Insulting your fellow americans is not a good way to bring them around to your position. Perhaps you could find a way to make your case without insult or invective.
For example. Liberals are no fans of standing armies; right wingers are for a strong defense. If only there was a force, recognised in the constitution, that would be difficult to turn on the population, yet could provide a strong defense. Humm.
Perhaps you should take it up with the liberals in Congress who have failed to discharge their Constitutional duties. I'm merely suggesting a realpolitk solution that offers something to the coastal political elite that gives them something in return as a compromise. Who doesn't like more jobs and education? Isn't this the compromise our founding fathers worked so hard for?
Realpolitk is for your enemy. Democrats are Americans. Treating us like we are your enemies is a path to a second civil war. In that case, Democrat blood won't be the only blood spilled. We saw the best you got on January 6, and they were a bunch of goobers.
Here is my point. We need to find folks running for Congress who feel in their bones the effect of seapower, folks who know that it is not airwings or escort ships, but airwings and escort ships. Folks are running for office right now, primaries have folks out on the hustings. Go to a meeting. Ask the question "do you see a need for a navy in our nation's future?" Ignore the R or D; decide on the answer given to that question.
Gee Tom, I'm confused. How does Jan 6th factor into this? Don't we both want government owned yards with a stable well trained workforce? My proposal merely gets the local stakeholders to buy into the program by appealing to their own interests. WIFM is always a powerful motivator isn't it? After all how is this different than unions working with the CDC on school closures. Everyone likes proactive stakeholders.
https://undark.org/2021/06/10/teachers-union-shaped-cdc-school-guidance/
"Treating us..."
Really? You confess to being corrupt?
Tom, to be fair, 600,000+ people don't show up to an insurrection without arms. What we saw on 1/6/21 was a lot of people angry at a number of stolen elections, who showed up to protest because they thought they still lived in a Constitutional Republic.
If you are looking for Democrats to start a second Civil War, I'm afraid they may face a more competent and serious opposition than your so-called "goobers."
Dare I posit that "Insulting your fellow americans is not a good way to bring them around to your position?" You've made this assertion a mere comment prior in this thread.
...please, Tom; keep thinking the "goobers" on 06Jan were the "best we got"... oh please oh please oh please....
Fool.
He is not trying to convert them, he is suggesting trying to get them to do something by using their own motivations. They already know they are corrupt. They also know we already know they are corrupt. They don't care. "Sticks and stones..." and all that.
Bingeaux.
I didn't know les Francais played that game!
And it's not like those corrupt folks are going to reject that loot because they are outraged.
The americans who disagree with your politics are not "corrupt."
No one ever said you were corrupt Tom. But, to deny the inherent truth of my comments is to ignore the spots on the leopard.
https://whyy.org/articles/johnny-doc-embezzlement-trial-verdict-guilty/#:~:text=A%20jury%20has%20found%20former,electricians%20union%20he%20once%20led.
https://www.justice.gov/usao-hi/pr/former-union-officer-sentenced-140-months-prison-conspiracy-wire-fraud-and-embezzlement
Is there a human activity in which folks don't steal? Priests doing God's work steal. Freaking naval officers steal. Cf. Fat Leonard.
Workers have the right to bargain collectively. Study your American history. When workers are denied the right to bargain peacefully, they turn to violence. Read about the Colorado mining wars where the brave workers fought off the Colorado national guard.
A ton of Americans who disagree with my politics are corrupt. Sadly, a bunch that agree are as well.
Politicians lie, cheat, and steal, sadly. That's why our original concept was to replace them regularly.
Never said they were. You need to stop making so many assumptions and misinterpretations..