One thing people forget: around that time you had several incidents of planes crashing into buildings. Iirc, 1 or 2 of students crashing after flying closer than their experience possibly warranted, 1 guy showing off, and one deliberate crash to be part of an "art installation" project. So like the local talk show host, I thought "another idiot". After the 2nd plane was reported, I thought, "Someone sent in the first string".
Somewhat worried the rest of the day we'd get hit with a truly serious attack against the grid or fuel distribution.
The first thing I thought about was the 1945 B-29 crash into the Empire State Building. When I got word that a *second* plane hit, I knew we were in uncharted territory.
TIL. I wonder if the outcome would have been different had it been a B-29.
Conspiracy theorists sometimes point to this incident as proof of 9/11 being a controlled demolition or something, but a WW2 bomber was smaller and much slower than a 767. It is a testament to how well the Empire State Building was built, though.
OpsO of a gun squadron on a det to Eglin. Had just briefed a 2v2 w/ some Eagles & saw the second plane as we were walking to the jets... called tower before starting the APU because I was sure our training day was done. F15 guys converted over to full up rounds in about 2 hours. We had to just sit there..... & my GF's (now wife) , a DC based flight attendant, birthday is Sep 11. Originally was going to take it off but because I was deployed she'd plan to pickup the DC-LA transcon.... AA77. Last minute decided no to. Heard it hit the Pentagon, knew the entire crew.
I was working as a lawyer in Corner Brook, Newfoundland, and just returning from a brief appearance. As I often did, in lieu of doing actual work I checked some news sites and found it strange how many of them seemed to be down. Almost like they were overwhelmed with traffic.
When I finally accessed one, I saw a headline about a plane crashing into the World Trade Center towers. Shortly thereafter, news of a *second* plane hitting the other tower, and I knew the world would never be the same. I went home and turned on the TV just in time to see the second tower collapse, one of these moments where your mind doesn't register that you just let out a horrified scream.
After US air space was closed, many jets were diverted to airports in Newfoundland, most famously Gander International Airport as portrayed in the musical "Come From Away." I finally visited NYC a couple of years later to pay respects to the victims, and to that incredible city, a couple of years later.
I was sleeping in, the wife got up early and she turned on the TV and saw the first plane hit and woke me up I said how could that happen? the time I got to the TV the next plane hit, That's when I said it's a terror attack and then we are now at war with somebody, it was stunning all I could think about was My son who was a Marine and the people who were trapped.
The Visceral hate I had towards Islam and Laden was strong in me.
The thing that really made me mad was the Apologists who like Bill Mayer said the terrorist were braver than Americans, the Bush "religion of Peace" speech.
Twenty years of war and Bin Laden was hiding In Pakistan the whole time and the Government here and there knew where he was.
The JFK assassination of my time. I remember like yesterday. Being woke up by my new wife. Watching the news for a few minutes and thinking "terrorists" before itd even been said. And moments later the horror of it being confirmed when the second plane struck.
Only moments afterwards, my ex called, pleading with me not to reenlist, reading my thoughts pretty well. The rest was a day of numbness and contemplation, later suddenly realizing our busy, noisy street had gone silent and empty. Only once interrupted, by a common sight today- a huge pickup, with a ramshackle pole added, and a huge and beautiful flag flying from it... And the sound of Guard F-15s across town getting airborne on full burner.
Now looking back, I wonder...was the whole GWOT worth it?? Was it right or wrong? Could it have been done different?? I mean, we havent had another 9/11... But was what we did worth all those kids lives?? Did it make a lasting difference? Don't misunderstand, im all for treating and disposing of terrorists like the vermin they are... But, Im not really sure either way. All i know is that if id of been C-in-C back then, Id of likely handled it more like how the President wanted to in the Clancy novel, global opinion be damned...
9000+ in US and coalition military deaths. Many thousands more maimed.
$Trillions of mis-invested money, both from military (hello shipbuilding) and domestic infrastructure, education, and healthcare needs.
Destruction of the USA's reputation as the good and indispensable nation. Torture, aggressive war. Internal rot.
Weakening of the Bill of Rights. Huge lies to the American people, eg attempting to blame Iraq while hiding actual evidence of Saudi government involvement.
What the USA needed on 9/11 was someone with a Michael Corleone judgment of revenge: calm and systematic. Like Mossad "Munich."
Instead we had some fools who were a combination of Fredo and Sonny.
Why do you think a Michael Corleone would not have done torture, aggressive war (what is that, exactly?). It's easy to write a comment in a blog but what you describe is pretty formless.
Michael would have started a low-key, comprehensive, world-wide campaign to kill or severely punish the direct planners and perpetrators of 9/11, along with those who financed and gave material support to it. Nobody would have been exempt. There would be no threats or chest-beating, just action.
There would have been no flying out of Saudi royals and government folks out of the USA on 9/12.
The Gulf royals and rich folks who we all know financed Al Qaeda before and after 9/11 would have paid. Maybe the Hashemites would be back in Mecca and Medina now.
Bin Laden would have been dead NLT the end of 2002.
He would have got the whole world that matters. on his side for this narrow, focused, and just effort. China, Germany, France, Russia, Turkey, even Iran. There would be no "Axis of Evil" speech right at the moment Iran was helping the USA against Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. That's a Sonny move.
Sure, Michael might have tortured, but we would not have known about it. He wouldn't have tried to make torture "legal" by having some weak lawyers to write opinions excusing it. That's a Fredo move. If you're going to commit a crime, get away with it.
He would not have charged into and occupied Afghanistan, already known as "the Graveyard of Empires." That's a Sonny move.
He would not have then stayed for 20+ years in an 80% illiterate country for democracy and women's rights, whatever. All the while with more innocent civilians dying collaterally. That's a Fredo move.
He would not invaded Iraq because our friends the Israelis and the petroleum industry wanted it. That's a Fredo move. He wouldn't have charged in without a good Phase IV plan. That's a Sonny move.
Aggressive war is when you attack and invade a country and it's not in self-defense or in response to an attack. It's what we tried Tojo and Goering for after WW II.
Saddam, the Gulf monarchs, the Iranians, the Pakistanis, Assad, and Gaddafi would have found the equivalent of the horse's head in the bed had they acted up. To be fair to Gaddafi, he figured it out on his own, yet we still killed him for shady reasons, a Fredo/Sonny move by Obama which caused a lot of damage to the Libyans and to Europe through migrant politics.
Nothing stays secret. Your torture would have been exposed. Then you have a problem.
I have no problem invading a country that is hosting terrorism. I agree with the not occupying part. You might not be occupying but you are certainly fighting a war within a country that did not invade you. You might kill terrorism bigwigs but they will be replaced. This war will go on for generations. Will the American people be down with a constant state of war?
We have to build relationships with countries terrorists are attacking. Do we look at the countries human rights record before we do anything? Do we refuse to help if their record isn't good enough? I raise these questions because these are the exact ones raised when I was working Intel.
My experience is that the American people will not pay the price to fight a truly effective war against terrorism. The mob example leaves out the fact you cannot act with impunity over time. In the short term maybe. But not in the long.
Thomas - your thought on Mossad "calm and systematic" leaves out the most important facet of Mossad - completely and utterly ruthless. "Collateral damage" is not in their lexicon. If you know their target, you are a useful tool to get to their target.
"Instead we had some fools - and still have them in abundance- who were a combination of Fredo and Sonny"> There, fixed it for ya.
It was wrong. Terror is a tactic. You can't fight a war against a tactic. What's worse, is that you can't win a war against a tactic. You are stuck fighting "terror," with no way to win. Somewhere, somebody is going to get angry enough at injustice so that they pick up a brick, or a stone, and now you have terror that the US has to fight.
I'm just tired of the negativity. America is great, are there some jerks and morons? Sure, about 30% of us are simply deplorable, but, the rest? Great folks.
Had to think on that a bit... And im not so sure that not being able to fight it and win is true. Clearly the way we tried was imperfect, and "nation building" and national occupation were side trips we should've never embarked upon. But I think rooting them out, as well as ensuring that nation-states would find it entirely too costly to support them would have been entirely doable with the appropriate use of allies, intelligence services, diplomacy, and at times, incredibly brutal force...
I'm not saying we should not have rooted out the #$%^ who did 9/11. I was all for that. What I am saying is terror is a tactic. Take the IRA bombings; the republicans engage in the tactic of bombing the capitol of the occupier in order to drive them out of the country they were occupying. Now, we can debate the morality, and the efficacy, of the tactic, but we cannot deny that it is a tactic.
Putin is using terrorist tactics against Ukraine, yet his ideology is not that of Osman bin Laden.
When we go to war, we need an enemy we are fighting. The "Global War on Terror" was stupid, you can't battle a tactic. It locked us into this never-ending conflict. Whenever there is injustice folks are going to respond. If they are outgunned and out financed, they may turn to terror as a tactic to fight against the oppression. How the US of A responds should not be a knee-jerk reaction. They are TERRORISTS!!! How we respond to acts in the world should be a careful, reasoned, and ethical response dependent on the particular facts of a particular situation.
Sure...but there are still PEOPLE using the tactic. And people can be found and eliminated. Countries harboring them can be convinced that the costs outweigh the benefits of doing so (enter all means, from diplomacy and aid, to punitive actions like sanctions, up to the aforementioned brutal force). Yes, you run the risk of creating more, especially when casting aside collateral damage concerns, but so be it. If youre committed, you continue til its finished. I feel like the strategy we used got watered down and sidetracked, and is what mired us into such a drawn out mess. Occupation and nation building wasn't a good idea, and we lost our way from just "finding and killing terrorists".
Seems like just yesterday, I was 50 years old, working as a civilian in DC. Girlfriend at the time (now wife) and I worked in the same building, different agencies. I took the DC metro (still running) to Arlington to check on a friend who had been hospitalized the night before.
I was privileged to observe civilian first responders from adjacent localities muster and coordinate at the Pentagon to fight the fire, triage casualties, and move them to local hospitals. They were all excellent, and those Fairfax County guys were amazing!
We watched the Pentagon smolder for the next 2 weeks. My biggest question was how could our superior officers have been so flaccid? They failed to harden/defend their own command post! Might be the saddest example I have ever observed of "do as I say, not as I do," and trust me, I saw many sad examples during 20 years active duty, and the 30+ subsequent years.
We lost some good people that day. Also got to meet a woman who survived Pearl Harbor as a young Army brat. She remembered seeing Honolulu burn. Working at the Pentagon, 60 years later, she survived another sneak attack/failure to defend. Definitely some lucky star shining on her!
I was screened for recall to Active Duty a few years after 9/11. Luck of the draw kept me working in DC. Some of the other men in my age cohort were killed or seriously injured during that cluster drill. War is a young man's game. Even at your physical and mental peak, the enemy has an even chance. As we age, the odds get worse.
My unanswered question since that day is why did we not airstrike the center of Wahhabism/Salafism? We could have quickly/easily/cheaply set them back and kept them quiet for a good long while, with no loss of assets or personnel.
I note with great pleasure that Japan and Germany have been extremely well-behaved ever since they got spanked for acting out. Why did no one in authority have the stones to spank the Saudis?
As much as I want to blame the Bushes, it still isn't entirely clear that the Saudis were responsible. Sure, signs point to them, but, clear enough signs to nuke them?
Nukes? Who would even consider such a thing? Conventional aerial bombardment of just 2 small cities would keep all of Western Asia quiet for several generations.
It was Thomas Aquinas who formulated the ethics of combat. When is it morally permissible to take the life of another? There are three elements: (1) the war must be waged upon the command of a rightful sovereign. (2) the war needs to be waged for just cause, on account of some wrong the attacked have committed. (3) the warriors must have the right intent, namely to promote good and to avoid evil.
Bombing Hiroshima meets that test.
Murdering civilians in a randomly selected Asian nation does not.
Oil. Had the United States enjoyed energy independence, the Saudi ambassador would have been in the White House at 0800 12 September 2002 to explain why the United States should not consider this an act of war. With the President scheduled to address a joint session of Congress that evening.
I was working for a Defense contractor in Alexandria. Was watching the TV i the lobby when the second plane went in. I remarked to the retired Colonel next to me: "We're at war. I don't know who we are at war with, but we're at war." Later we stood on the roof and watched the Pentagon burn. None, of our staff died, but I knew staff in OA22 who did.
Raise a glass to Rick Rescorla today:
"At 8:46 A.M. on the morning of September 11, 2001, American Airlines Flight 11 struck the North Tower of the World Trade Center (WTC 1). Rescorla heard the explosion and saw the tower burning from his office window in the 44th floor of the South Tower (WTC 2). When a Port Authority announcement came over the P.A. system urging people to stay at their desks, and before United Airlines Flight 175 would strike the South Tower at 9:03 A.M., Rescorla ignored the announcement, grabbed his bullhorn, walkie-talkie and cell phone, and began systematically to order the roughly 2,700 Morgan Stanley employees in the South Tower to evacuate, in addition to the employees in WTC 5, numbering around 1,000.
Rescorla had boosted morale among his men in Vietnam by singing Cornish songs from his youth, and now he did the same in the stairwell, singing songs such as one based on the Welsh song "Men of Harlech"
After successfully evacuating almost all of Morgan Stanley's 2,700 employees, he went back into the building. When one of his colleagues told him he too had to evacuate the World Trade Center, Rescorla replied, "As soon as I make sure everyone else is out." He was last seen on the 10th floor of the South Tower, heading upward, shortly before its collapse at 9:59 A.M., 56 minutes after being struck by United Airlines Flight 175. A total of 13 Morgan Stanley employees died in the September 11 attacks, including Rescorla, his deputies Wesley Mercer and Jorge Valezquez, and security guard Godwin Forde, who had collectively stayed behind to help others"
I was a high school kid, Sophomore year. Heard from someone in the hall about the first attack, and disregarded it. The second was announced over the PA in the second hour, and I had a debate class as an elective than year. We had scheduled research that morning, and we were explicitly told by the librarian do not look at the news sites.
That afternoon was American History. We watched a local channel that had an agreement to play CNN, and the teacher was there, stating we were witnessing history as it happened.
I was with two local Surveyors and two men from the National Geodetic Survey measuring a calibration base line at the local airport. We were about two hours in when the local druggist came out to check on his plane and he told us about the attack. We were under the eastern approaches to port Columbus. Earlier there were several contrails over us and we had not been paying attention. All that was above us then was burning blue and we all felt very strange.
That's such nonsense. (1) Moslems have been a part of America since Peter Buckminster killed British Major General John Pitcairn at the Battle of Bunker Hill. (2) Moslems are no more unified than Christians are; and in case you haven't been paying attention, Christians have been gleefully murdering each other for thousands of years.
There are plenty of Christians who hate Catholics with the same fury that Bin Laden's boys felt towards the US of A.
You are not entitled to your own facts. The physical documentation available in historical archives does not support that Peter Belknap/Buckminister/Salem was ever a Moslem. The fact that (not professor) Amir Muhammad is trying to make him one in pop culture on the basis of the Arabic word for peace being Salaam, and replacing the "aa" with an "e", disregards that Peter was born in Massachusetts and there just so happens to be a Salem, MA.
Bwahahaha! What’s funny Tommy is when Muslim parents push back against your LGBTQ+ programs in the public schools and you guys call them “white supremacists”.
Tom, the only program I have in the public school is association football. We had a Muslim kid; skillful on the ball, lacked fitness.
What you are going through is the process of "othering." We put folks into groups, then dehumanize the group. They become "the other." LGBar-B-Q folks are good fodder for "othering" because weird sex creeps us out; to a straight, a gay guy is already an "other." This is why a devoutly Irish Christian can gleefully murder an equally devout Irish Christian; because he's just a "dirty prod." It's how Hitler got Christians to murder six million.
I wonder if bin Laden & Co. could have ever imagined how many willing accomplices they would end up finding in Congress, the executive, and our national security apparatus. So many of our rights curtailed, and hard-fought battles won for those we still enjoy.
Woefully mismanaged campaigns waged against the perpetrators that offered heaps of insult and injury to our military members who were tasked with prosecuting it. A slap in the face of the honorable from devious and deceptive "leadership".
RIP to all of their victims. 9/11 is not a day any of us will forget. A national tragedy never allowed to heal.
I was working for a Lighting Company in Pittsburgh. At the time I was finishing up the "as built" drawings for fixtures that were going to be hung in Zig Zag Alley, a mall that ran between the Towers on the Subway level. We thought it was a small plane that hit. We finally got a radio going just as the other plane hit. There were reports of a plane on the ground in Cleveland and another about one that was supposed to hit the USX Tower in Pittsburgh (Flight 93). There was a voluntary evacuation of downtown Pittsburgh, but, I chose to stay where I was at. As I was leaving I looked up at a nearby building that housed Allegheny County's 911 complex I saw men on the roof. One of them was carrying a Stinger MANPADS. As I was crossing the Highland Park Bridge is was like something out of a movie. Usually there's hundreds of cars, but I was the only car on the bridge. I heard a roar, looked up and saw two F-15s flying up the Allegheny River, armed to the teeth. It wasn't until I got home that I saw the video of what happened. About a week later we got the truck back with the uninstalled fixtures. I left the Company a bit after that, so I don't know what happened to them. They were supposed to have opened Zig Zag Alley the following week. We were supposed to have been at the Top O' World restaurant at 9:00 AM September 18th to attend the opening and then to gat an award for fixtures that we designed for JFK Airport.
Tom: Thanks for the history lesson. Maybe you want to educate me on the different sects of Islam. If you know of one that is comfortable with Western ideas please advise.
I believe I did. I know from my experience that there are many good, honest, hard-working Americans who practice the Muslim faith. I have worked with Imans who genuinely live a life of peace.
I’ve seen nations, who profess to be Christian, conduct themselves in an appallingly un-Christian manner. Which leads to the observation that if Christian nations can act contrary to the teachings of Jesus, why would we expect Moslem nations to follow Muhammad?
So disingenuous. So if Tom's neighbor raped his daughter we can assume that Tom will do likewise? And the Koran is clearly not in the same league as the New Testament message of peace and unconditional love - to all. I would be you've not read it. I have been to Somalia, Tunisia, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, UAE, Abu Dhabi, Pakistan, and Yemen (worst of the lot). I have been face to face with the Saudi National Police wanting to kill one of my enlisted when on a bus ride to the US Consulate he nonchalantly tossed out an empty coke can - which at the time had a significant stock holding by a Jewish group. My enlisted had "defiled" the kingdom, and death was the punishment. Calls to the local 3 star with him calling the Ambassador to grovel before the Saudi court resulted in us immediately leaving the country and ON THE SAME DAY THEY DUG UP THE SIDEWALK TO LAY FRESH "UN-DEFILED" CONCRETE. Sooooo 21st century.
Yes, bad apples all around, but I don't recall a Christian group with performances like ISIS or Boko Haram lining up 20 prisoners and gleefully cutting their heads off. Ask Daniel Pearl's parents about it.
You need to read about the struggle of the Irish people to establish a republic independent of the British crown. The conduct of both sides during “the troubles” was as appalling as any conduct engaged in by Moslems, yet both sides claimed to be Christian.
Defend them till you can't but I'll end with Christians didn't slit throats of female flight attendants and then fly 3 aircraft loaded with innocent lives into buildings with more innocent victims and scream "Allahu Akbar" whilst a large percentage of muslims danced in the streets celebrating the carnage.
I've supported an NGO in Iraq for years - remotely - handling their network infrastructure, VPNs, firewalls, and tele-conference nodes. My pastor goes frequently along with my dentist (small world huh?). In Nov one of the managers was gunned down in Baghdad in front of his wife and 3 kids. Why? He was a Christian. Never met in person - only thru phone, emails, and zoom but a great guy. Turns out one of the "converts" from islam had been taking names, numbers, addresses, car tags, and cell phone numbers while pretending to be interested in Christianity, and then turning them over to the Al Sadr gang. A certain US Guvmint official called in July and both pastor and dentist are on the hit list. That little thing called Taqiyya is soooo peaceful isn't it?
I've made it my custom for the last decade or so, on this particular anniversary, to go visit a maternity ward...........
One thing people forget: around that time you had several incidents of planes crashing into buildings. Iirc, 1 or 2 of students crashing after flying closer than their experience possibly warranted, 1 guy showing off, and one deliberate crash to be part of an "art installation" project. So like the local talk show host, I thought "another idiot". After the 2nd plane was reported, I thought, "Someone sent in the first string".
Somewhat worried the rest of the day we'd get hit with a truly serious attack against the grid or fuel distribution.
The first thing I thought about was the 1945 B-29 crash into the Empire State Building. When I got word that a *second* plane hit, I knew we were in uncharted territory.
FWIW it was a B-25 Mitchell, not a B-29; 14 dead. Same as the Doolittle bombers.
TIL. I wonder if the outcome would have been different had it been a B-29.
Conspiracy theorists sometimes point to this incident as proof of 9/11 being a controlled demolition or something, but a WW2 bomber was smaller and much slower than a 767. It is a testament to how well the Empire State Building was built, though.
And 22 years later we have what? 5 still at Gitmo and 1 absentee Commander-in-Chief.
Don't forget that bumbling, stumbling Daddy's war fighting Bush and his religion of peace.
You misspelled "pieces."
I did think of it. But went with peace to be factual lol not accurate
OpsO of a gun squadron on a det to Eglin. Had just briefed a 2v2 w/ some Eagles & saw the second plane as we were walking to the jets... called tower before starting the APU because I was sure our training day was done. F15 guys converted over to full up rounds in about 2 hours. We had to just sit there..... & my GF's (now wife) , a DC based flight attendant, birthday is Sep 11. Originally was going to take it off but because I was deployed she'd plan to pickup the DC-LA transcon.... AA77. Last minute decided no to. Heard it hit the Pentagon, knew the entire crew.
I was working as a lawyer in Corner Brook, Newfoundland, and just returning from a brief appearance. As I often did, in lieu of doing actual work I checked some news sites and found it strange how many of them seemed to be down. Almost like they were overwhelmed with traffic.
When I finally accessed one, I saw a headline about a plane crashing into the World Trade Center towers. Shortly thereafter, news of a *second* plane hitting the other tower, and I knew the world would never be the same. I went home and turned on the TV just in time to see the second tower collapse, one of these moments where your mind doesn't register that you just let out a horrified scream.
After US air space was closed, many jets were diverted to airports in Newfoundland, most famously Gander International Airport as portrayed in the musical "Come From Away." I finally visited NYC a couple of years later to pay respects to the victims, and to that incredible city, a couple of years later.
I was sleeping in, the wife got up early and she turned on the TV and saw the first plane hit and woke me up I said how could that happen? the time I got to the TV the next plane hit, That's when I said it's a terror attack and then we are now at war with somebody, it was stunning all I could think about was My son who was a Marine and the people who were trapped.
The Visceral hate I had towards Islam and Laden was strong in me.
The thing that really made me mad was the Apologists who like Bill Mayer said the terrorist were braver than Americans, the Bush "religion of Peace" speech.
Twenty years of war and Bin Laden was hiding In Pakistan the whole time and the Government here and there knew where he was.
Never, Forget.
The JFK assassination of my time. I remember like yesterday. Being woke up by my new wife. Watching the news for a few minutes and thinking "terrorists" before itd even been said. And moments later the horror of it being confirmed when the second plane struck.
Only moments afterwards, my ex called, pleading with me not to reenlist, reading my thoughts pretty well. The rest was a day of numbness and contemplation, later suddenly realizing our busy, noisy street had gone silent and empty. Only once interrupted, by a common sight today- a huge pickup, with a ramshackle pole added, and a huge and beautiful flag flying from it... And the sound of Guard F-15s across town getting airborne on full burner.
Now looking back, I wonder...was the whole GWOT worth it?? Was it right or wrong? Could it have been done different?? I mean, we havent had another 9/11... But was what we did worth all those kids lives?? Did it make a lasting difference? Don't misunderstand, im all for treating and disposing of terrorists like the vermin they are... But, Im not really sure either way. All i know is that if id of been C-in-C back then, Id of likely handled it more like how the President wanted to in the Clancy novel, global opinion be damned...
Did you reenlist?
No, the "GWOT" as executed was not worth it.
If his object was to destroy the USA, looks like Bin Laden succeeded. It's still playing out, trends look irreversible.
250,000+ Iraqi civilians killed. 60,000+ Afghan civilians
9000+ in US and coalition military deaths. Many thousands more maimed.
$Trillions of mis-invested money, both from military (hello shipbuilding) and domestic infrastructure, education, and healthcare needs.
Destruction of the USA's reputation as the good and indispensable nation. Torture, aggressive war. Internal rot.
Weakening of the Bill of Rights. Huge lies to the American people, eg attempting to blame Iraq while hiding actual evidence of Saudi government involvement.
What the USA needed on 9/11 was someone with a Michael Corleone judgment of revenge: calm and systematic. Like Mossad "Munich."
Instead we had some fools who were a combination of Fredo and Sonny.
Why do you think a Michael Corleone would not have done torture, aggressive war (what is that, exactly?). It's easy to write a comment in a blog but what you describe is pretty formless.
Michael would have started a low-key, comprehensive, world-wide campaign to kill or severely punish the direct planners and perpetrators of 9/11, along with those who financed and gave material support to it. Nobody would have been exempt. There would be no threats or chest-beating, just action.
There would have been no flying out of Saudi royals and government folks out of the USA on 9/12.
The Gulf royals and rich folks who we all know financed Al Qaeda before and after 9/11 would have paid. Maybe the Hashemites would be back in Mecca and Medina now.
Bin Laden would have been dead NLT the end of 2002.
He would have got the whole world that matters. on his side for this narrow, focused, and just effort. China, Germany, France, Russia, Turkey, even Iran. There would be no "Axis of Evil" speech right at the moment Iran was helping the USA against Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. That's a Sonny move.
Sure, Michael might have tortured, but we would not have known about it. He wouldn't have tried to make torture "legal" by having some weak lawyers to write opinions excusing it. That's a Fredo move. If you're going to commit a crime, get away with it.
He would not have charged into and occupied Afghanistan, already known as "the Graveyard of Empires." That's a Sonny move.
He would not have then stayed for 20+ years in an 80% illiterate country for democracy and women's rights, whatever. All the while with more innocent civilians dying collaterally. That's a Fredo move.
He would not invaded Iraq because our friends the Israelis and the petroleum industry wanted it. That's a Fredo move. He wouldn't have charged in without a good Phase IV plan. That's a Sonny move.
Aggressive war is when you attack and invade a country and it's not in self-defense or in response to an attack. It's what we tried Tojo and Goering for after WW II.
Saddam, the Gulf monarchs, the Iranians, the Pakistanis, Assad, and Gaddafi would have found the equivalent of the horse's head in the bed had they acted up. To be fair to Gaddafi, he figured it out on his own, yet we still killed him for shady reasons, a Fredo/Sonny move by Obama which caused a lot of damage to the Libyans and to Europe through migrant politics.
Several things:
Nothing stays secret. Your torture would have been exposed. Then you have a problem.
I have no problem invading a country that is hosting terrorism. I agree with the not occupying part. You might not be occupying but you are certainly fighting a war within a country that did not invade you. You might kill terrorism bigwigs but they will be replaced. This war will go on for generations. Will the American people be down with a constant state of war?
We have to build relationships with countries terrorists are attacking. Do we look at the countries human rights record before we do anything? Do we refuse to help if their record isn't good enough? I raise these questions because these are the exact ones raised when I was working Intel.
My experience is that the American people will not pay the price to fight a truly effective war against terrorism. The mob example leaves out the fact you cannot act with impunity over time. In the short term maybe. But not in the long.
Thomas - your thought on Mossad "calm and systematic" leaves out the most important facet of Mossad - completely and utterly ruthless. "Collateral damage" is not in their lexicon. If you know their target, you are a useful tool to get to their target.
"Instead we had some fools - and still have them in abundance- who were a combination of Fredo and Sonny"> There, fixed it for ya.
Agree, see my comment above
I refuse to yield to despair.
It was wrong. Terror is a tactic. You can't fight a war against a tactic. What's worse, is that you can't win a war against a tactic. You are stuck fighting "terror," with no way to win. Somewhere, somebody is going to get angry enough at injustice so that they pick up a brick, or a stone, and now you have terror that the US has to fight.
How do you fight a cultural war when you don't have a culture?
We have a culture, you just don't like it.
Did you think REALLY hard to come up with that?
I'm just tired of the negativity. America is great, are there some jerks and morons? Sure, about 30% of us are simply deplorable, but, the rest? Great folks.
I'm not into rah rah bs. I don't believe in deluding myself.
Had to think on that a bit... And im not so sure that not being able to fight it and win is true. Clearly the way we tried was imperfect, and "nation building" and national occupation were side trips we should've never embarked upon. But I think rooting them out, as well as ensuring that nation-states would find it entirely too costly to support them would have been entirely doable with the appropriate use of allies, intelligence services, diplomacy, and at times, incredibly brutal force...
I'm not saying we should not have rooted out the #$%^ who did 9/11. I was all for that. What I am saying is terror is a tactic. Take the IRA bombings; the republicans engage in the tactic of bombing the capitol of the occupier in order to drive them out of the country they were occupying. Now, we can debate the morality, and the efficacy, of the tactic, but we cannot deny that it is a tactic.
Putin is using terrorist tactics against Ukraine, yet his ideology is not that of Osman bin Laden.
When we go to war, we need an enemy we are fighting. The "Global War on Terror" was stupid, you can't battle a tactic. It locked us into this never-ending conflict. Whenever there is injustice folks are going to respond. If they are outgunned and out financed, they may turn to terror as a tactic to fight against the oppression. How the US of A responds should not be a knee-jerk reaction. They are TERRORISTS!!! How we respond to acts in the world should be a careful, reasoned, and ethical response dependent on the particular facts of a particular situation.
Sure...but there are still PEOPLE using the tactic. And people can be found and eliminated. Countries harboring them can be convinced that the costs outweigh the benefits of doing so (enter all means, from diplomacy and aid, to punitive actions like sanctions, up to the aforementioned brutal force). Yes, you run the risk of creating more, especially when casting aside collateral damage concerns, but so be it. If youre committed, you continue til its finished. I feel like the strategy we used got watered down and sidetracked, and is what mired us into such a drawn out mess. Occupation and nation building wasn't a good idea, and we lost our way from just "finding and killing terrorists".
Seems like just yesterday, I was 50 years old, working as a civilian in DC. Girlfriend at the time (now wife) and I worked in the same building, different agencies. I took the DC metro (still running) to Arlington to check on a friend who had been hospitalized the night before.
I was privileged to observe civilian first responders from adjacent localities muster and coordinate at the Pentagon to fight the fire, triage casualties, and move them to local hospitals. They were all excellent, and those Fairfax County guys were amazing!
We watched the Pentagon smolder for the next 2 weeks. My biggest question was how could our superior officers have been so flaccid? They failed to harden/defend their own command post! Might be the saddest example I have ever observed of "do as I say, not as I do," and trust me, I saw many sad examples during 20 years active duty, and the 30+ subsequent years.
We lost some good people that day. Also got to meet a woman who survived Pearl Harbor as a young Army brat. She remembered seeing Honolulu burn. Working at the Pentagon, 60 years later, she survived another sneak attack/failure to defend. Definitely some lucky star shining on her!
I was screened for recall to Active Duty a few years after 9/11. Luck of the draw kept me working in DC. Some of the other men in my age cohort were killed or seriously injured during that cluster drill. War is a young man's game. Even at your physical and mental peak, the enemy has an even chance. As we age, the odds get worse.
My unanswered question since that day is why did we not airstrike the center of Wahhabism/Salafism? We could have quickly/easily/cheaply set them back and kept them quiet for a good long while, with no loss of assets or personnel.
I note with great pleasure that Japan and Germany have been extremely well-behaved ever since they got spanked for acting out. Why did no one in authority have the stones to spank the Saudis?
As much as I want to blame the Bushes, it still isn't entirely clear that the Saudis were responsible. Sure, signs point to them, but, clear enough signs to nuke them?
Nukes? Who would even consider such a thing? Conventional aerial bombardment of just 2 small cities would keep all of Western Asia quiet for several generations.
It was Thomas Aquinas who formulated the ethics of combat. When is it morally permissible to take the life of another? There are three elements: (1) the war must be waged upon the command of a rightful sovereign. (2) the war needs to be waged for just cause, on account of some wrong the attacked have committed. (3) the warriors must have the right intent, namely to promote good and to avoid evil.
Bombing Hiroshima meets that test.
Murdering civilians in a randomly selected Asian nation does not.
Oil. Had the United States enjoyed energy independence, the Saudi ambassador would have been in the White House at 0800 12 September 2002 to explain why the United States should not consider this an act of war. With the President scheduled to address a joint session of Congress that evening.
I was working for a Defense contractor in Alexandria. Was watching the TV i the lobby when the second plane went in. I remarked to the retired Colonel next to me: "We're at war. I don't know who we are at war with, but we're at war." Later we stood on the roof and watched the Pentagon burn. None, of our staff died, but I knew staff in OA22 who did.
Raise a glass to Rick Rescorla today:
"At 8:46 A.M. on the morning of September 11, 2001, American Airlines Flight 11 struck the North Tower of the World Trade Center (WTC 1). Rescorla heard the explosion and saw the tower burning from his office window in the 44th floor of the South Tower (WTC 2). When a Port Authority announcement came over the P.A. system urging people to stay at their desks, and before United Airlines Flight 175 would strike the South Tower at 9:03 A.M., Rescorla ignored the announcement, grabbed his bullhorn, walkie-talkie and cell phone, and began systematically to order the roughly 2,700 Morgan Stanley employees in the South Tower to evacuate, in addition to the employees in WTC 5, numbering around 1,000.
Rescorla had boosted morale among his men in Vietnam by singing Cornish songs from his youth, and now he did the same in the stairwell, singing songs such as one based on the Welsh song "Men of Harlech"
After successfully evacuating almost all of Morgan Stanley's 2,700 employees, he went back into the building. When one of his colleagues told him he too had to evacuate the World Trade Center, Rescorla replied, "As soon as I make sure everyone else is out." He was last seen on the 10th floor of the South Tower, heading upward, shortly before its collapse at 9:59 A.M., 56 minutes after being struck by United Airlines Flight 175. A total of 13 Morgan Stanley employees died in the September 11 attacks, including Rescorla, his deputies Wesley Mercer and Jorge Valezquez, and security guard Godwin Forde, who had collectively stayed behind to help others"
Real Men
I was a high school kid, Sophomore year. Heard from someone in the hall about the first attack, and disregarded it. The second was announced over the PA in the second hour, and I had a debate class as an elective than year. We had scheduled research that morning, and we were explicitly told by the librarian do not look at the news sites.
That afternoon was American History. We watched a local channel that had an agreement to play CNN, and the teacher was there, stating we were witnessing history as it happened.
I was with two local Surveyors and two men from the National Geodetic Survey measuring a calibration base line at the local airport. We were about two hours in when the local druggist came out to check on his plane and he told us about the attack. We were under the eastern approaches to port Columbus. Earlier there were several contrails over us and we had not been paying attention. All that was above us then was burning blue and we all felt very strange.
We missed the prime message. Moslems hat us AS INDIVIDUALS. The Koran tells them to.
Moslems hate each and every one of us.
That's such nonsense. (1) Moslems have been a part of America since Peter Buckminster killed British Major General John Pitcairn at the Battle of Bunker Hill. (2) Moslems are no more unified than Christians are; and in case you haven't been paying attention, Christians have been gleefully murdering each other for thousands of years.
There are plenty of Christians who hate Catholics with the same fury that Bin Laden's boys felt towards the US of A.
You are not entitled to your own facts. The physical documentation available in historical archives does not support that Peter Belknap/Buckminister/Salem was ever a Moslem. The fact that (not professor) Amir Muhammad is trying to make him one in pop culture on the basis of the Arabic word for peace being Salaam, and replacing the "aa" with an "e", disregards that Peter was born in Massachusetts and there just so happens to be a Salem, MA.
https://www.nps.gov/people/peter-salem.htm
Bwahahaha! What’s funny Tommy is when Muslim parents push back against your LGBTQ+ programs in the public schools and you guys call them “white supremacists”.
Tom, the only program I have in the public school is association football. We had a Muslim kid; skillful on the ball, lacked fitness.
What you are going through is the process of "othering." We put folks into groups, then dehumanize the group. They become "the other." LGBar-B-Q folks are good fodder for "othering" because weird sex creeps us out; to a straight, a gay guy is already an "other." This is why a devoutly Irish Christian can gleefully murder an equally devout Irish Christian; because he's just a "dirty prod." It's how Hitler got Christians to murder six million.
I wonder if bin Laden & Co. could have ever imagined how many willing accomplices they would end up finding in Congress, the executive, and our national security apparatus. So many of our rights curtailed, and hard-fought battles won for those we still enjoy.
Woefully mismanaged campaigns waged against the perpetrators that offered heaps of insult and injury to our military members who were tasked with prosecuting it. A slap in the face of the honorable from devious and deceptive "leadership".
RIP to all of their victims. 9/11 is not a day any of us will forget. A national tragedy never allowed to heal.
I was working for a Lighting Company in Pittsburgh. At the time I was finishing up the "as built" drawings for fixtures that were going to be hung in Zig Zag Alley, a mall that ran between the Towers on the Subway level. We thought it was a small plane that hit. We finally got a radio going just as the other plane hit. There were reports of a plane on the ground in Cleveland and another about one that was supposed to hit the USX Tower in Pittsburgh (Flight 93). There was a voluntary evacuation of downtown Pittsburgh, but, I chose to stay where I was at. As I was leaving I looked up at a nearby building that housed Allegheny County's 911 complex I saw men on the roof. One of them was carrying a Stinger MANPADS. As I was crossing the Highland Park Bridge is was like something out of a movie. Usually there's hundreds of cars, but I was the only car on the bridge. I heard a roar, looked up and saw two F-15s flying up the Allegheny River, armed to the teeth. It wasn't until I got home that I saw the video of what happened. About a week later we got the truck back with the uninstalled fixtures. I left the Company a bit after that, so I don't know what happened to them. They were supposed to have opened Zig Zag Alley the following week. We were supposed to have been at the Top O' World restaurant at 9:00 AM September 18th to attend the opening and then to gat an award for fixtures that we designed for JFK Airport.
Tom: Thanks for the history lesson. Maybe you want to educate me on the different sects of Islam. If you know of one that is comfortable with Western ideas please advise.
Show me a Christian country that follows the teachings of Christ, then, I'll worry about Musslemen.
Just answer the question.
I believe I did. I know from my experience that there are many good, honest, hard-working Americans who practice the Muslim faith. I have worked with Imans who genuinely live a life of peace.
I’ve seen nations, who profess to be Christian, conduct themselves in an appallingly un-Christian manner. Which leads to the observation that if Christian nations can act contrary to the teachings of Jesus, why would we expect Moslem nations to follow Muhammad?
So disingenuous. So if Tom's neighbor raped his daughter we can assume that Tom will do likewise? And the Koran is clearly not in the same league as the New Testament message of peace and unconditional love - to all. I would be you've not read it. I have been to Somalia, Tunisia, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, UAE, Abu Dhabi, Pakistan, and Yemen (worst of the lot). I have been face to face with the Saudi National Police wanting to kill one of my enlisted when on a bus ride to the US Consulate he nonchalantly tossed out an empty coke can - which at the time had a significant stock holding by a Jewish group. My enlisted had "defiled" the kingdom, and death was the punishment. Calls to the local 3 star with him calling the Ambassador to grovel before the Saudi court resulted in us immediately leaving the country and ON THE SAME DAY THEY DUG UP THE SIDEWALK TO LAY FRESH "UN-DEFILED" CONCRETE. Sooooo 21st century.
Yes, bad apples all around, but I don't recall a Christian group with performances like ISIS or Boko Haram lining up 20 prisoners and gleefully cutting their heads off. Ask Daniel Pearl's parents about it.
You need to read about the struggle of the Irish people to establish a republic independent of the British crown. The conduct of both sides during “the troubles” was as appalling as any conduct engaged in by Moslems, yet both sides claimed to be Christian.
Defend them till you can't but I'll end with Christians didn't slit throats of female flight attendants and then fly 3 aircraft loaded with innocent lives into buildings with more innocent victims and scream "Allahu Akbar" whilst a large percentage of muslims danced in the streets celebrating the carnage.
I've supported an NGO in Iraq for years - remotely - handling their network infrastructure, VPNs, firewalls, and tele-conference nodes. My pastor goes frequently along with my dentist (small world huh?). In Nov one of the managers was gunned down in Baghdad in front of his wife and 3 kids. Why? He was a Christian. Never met in person - only thru phone, emails, and zoom but a great guy. Turns out one of the "converts" from islam had been taking names, numbers, addresses, car tags, and cell phone numbers while pretending to be interested in Christianity, and then turning them over to the Al Sadr gang. A certain US Guvmint official called in July and both pastor and dentist are on the hit list. That little thing called Taqiyya is soooo peaceful isn't it?