We can learn a lot from the Finns! Worked for them for 15 years. The country in unique, the people “Sisu” tough. They have icebreakers all right. If they sold us their used ones we would leap frog ahead about 20 years. But what the Hell, we can’t keep rust off our ships of war. Why have ice breakers when the Navy and Marines need global food courts?
There aren't really any used icebreakers on the market, at least not until the Finns get their new icebreakers built. There are two here that the U.S. Coast Guard could use 'as is', and perhaps some kind of deal could be worked out. Both options- MPV Nordica and Fennica- have experience working in Alaskan waters.
We could use a CDR Ed "Iceberg" Smith and a Governor Eske Brun to educate Congress. At the feet of the Congresscritters is ultimately where failure of a sustainable Arctic policy lies.
The North-East Greenland Sledge Patrol A unique and lasting legacy of the U.S. Coast Guard’s defense of Greenland during WWII
We also get in our own way. Even the Finns I know balk at the idea of having the U.S. Government for a client. I'm told that Title XIV waiver would enable the project to skip some of the absurd portions of U.S. contracting. This is one of the friction points: US shipyards would also do better if our absurd process was waived for domestic builds. So yes we need reform- but that will take time, and we also- desperately- need ships.
Good discussion - a little more echo/feedback on your mic Cdr - a little distracting. It's insanely frustrating watching this process (like the FFX) - absolutely baffling decision making and no apparent congressional push for efficiencies. I recall seeing Polar Star in s Seattle when my ffg was in the vigor shipyard there almost 15 yrs back.
One thing I didn't mention specifically is the strategic mobility that the Northern Sea Route gives to Russia (and China). Think of the Russo-Japanese War, but with the Russians able to bring their Baltic fleet to Japan in 1/3 the time...
Or of Chinese and Russian fleets moving between the North Atlantic and the Pacific in 2/3 the time it takes to get ships from San Diego to Japan...
This is something that we ought to be able to track and contest.
The decades-long neglect by the Coast Guard (and the civilian leadership) is abominable and unforgivable. The so-called Polar Rollers (the nickname for the Polar Sea and Polar Star because of their sometimes unwieldy tendency to roll heavily due to their lower hull design) have been dockyard queens since their commissioning and have gotten worse as they aged.
I did a stint on the Polar Star with the MH-65 in the mid-1990s, and the amount of work the crew had to expend to keep the ship running was ridiculous. The amount of casualties showed the need for replacement of this hard-worn ship even back then.
The problem is too many cutters were coming up for replacement at the same time and the commandant's office kicked the can down the road. The 210s and 378s date from the 1960s and they were elderly even then. A whole class of patrol boats, the 82-footers, also dated from the same vintage and required replacement. So the Polar-class icebreakers (built in the late 1970s) were not a priority even though many noticed that they were both in bad shape.
The reason the Polar Sea has been used as a parts bin for Polar Star is they can't source many of the parts for the ships and Polar Star was in far better shape than the Polar Sea. The Healy isn't a heavy-duty icebreaker, but it would've been far more logical to have built several more than just the one-off ship that will require a lot of work due to the unavailability of spares.
Another set of icebreakers that don't get much publicity are the vital Bay-class icebreaking tugs that are old as hell and in need of replacement. They break ice on the Great Lakes and on the East Coast and they've been rode hard and put away wet as the fund-starved Coast Guard does with all of their ships.
At least the Coast Guard has somewhat woken up about the need for icebreakers, but the program to build the new Finnish design looks to be in trouble since the yard that is building it on the Mississippi Gulf Coast have never built an icebreaker.
The civilian-sourced new icebreaker (which will be named the Storis, a name I love) will help take a bit of pressure off the Polar Star and the Healy, but what they need is at least six, maybe as many as 10 icebreakers, not to mention replacements for the Bay-class tugs.
The main reason for lack of ice breakers is stupidity at CG HQ
We can learn a lot from the Finns! Worked for them for 15 years. The country in unique, the people “Sisu” tough. They have icebreakers all right. If they sold us their used ones we would leap frog ahead about 20 years. But what the Hell, we can’t keep rust off our ships of war. Why have ice breakers when the Navy and Marines need global food courts?
The Navy would screw up icebreakers from Finland the way they screwed up frigates from Italy.
There aren't really any used icebreakers on the market, at least not until the Finns get their new icebreakers built. There are two here that the U.S. Coast Guard could use 'as is', and perhaps some kind of deal could be worked out. Both options- MPV Nordica and Fennica- have experience working in Alaskan waters.
We could use a CDR Ed "Iceberg" Smith and a Governor Eske Brun to educate Congress. At the feet of the Congresscritters is ultimately where failure of a sustainable Arctic policy lies.
The North-East Greenland Sledge Patrol A unique and lasting legacy of the U.S. Coast Guard’s defense of Greenland during WWII
https://media.defense.gov/2023/Sep/26/2003308608/-1/-1/0/DESH_NE_GREENLAND_SLEDGE_PATROL.PDF
But wait, Climate change was going to take care of the ice and melt the Arctic!!
Climate change doesn't stop the earth rotating on its axis. Winter is still coming.
So, Trump hinted to Trudeau that Canada should consider joining the union as the 51st state.
Maybe the US Navy and USCG would be serious enough to consider a fleet of icebreakers.
Is an icebreaker more sophisticated and harder to build than a frigate or destroyer for our shipyard?
Or it is not a priority.
The Chinese are ramping up their icebreaker fleet, guy!
They require unique construction which has been part of the delay.
We also get in our own way. Even the Finns I know balk at the idea of having the U.S. Government for a client. I'm told that Title XIV waiver would enable the project to skip some of the absurd portions of U.S. contracting. This is one of the friction points: US shipyards would also do better if our absurd process was waived for domestic builds. So yes we need reform- but that will take time, and we also- desperately- need ships.
The Navy cares about football...
It doesn't give a damn about ships...
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ge2E2b_W0AAXND9?format=jpg&name=medium
I say Navy because the Navy once considered icebreakers warships...
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b2/330-PSA-152-60_%28USN_817415%29_%2821287040542%29.jpg/1264px-330-PSA-152-60_%28USN_817415%29_%2821287040542%29.jpg
We suck.
Good discussion - a little more echo/feedback on your mic Cdr - a little distracting. It's insanely frustrating watching this process (like the FFX) - absolutely baffling decision making and no apparent congressional push for efficiencies. I recall seeing Polar Star in s Seattle when my ffg was in the vigor shipyard there almost 15 yrs back.
Thank you for the heads up. Something happened in the post processing. I turned off the "smoother" and it appears to have fixed the problem.
I'm in favor of buying Finland. Their previous prime minister can join the co-hosts on "The View." Also, reindeer are a strategic asset.
One thing I didn't mention specifically is the strategic mobility that the Northern Sea Route gives to Russia (and China). Think of the Russo-Japanese War, but with the Russians able to bring their Baltic fleet to Japan in 1/3 the time...
Or of Chinese and Russian fleets moving between the North Atlantic and the Pacific in 2/3 the time it takes to get ships from San Diego to Japan...
This is something that we ought to be able to track and contest.
We need them badly.
The decades-long neglect by the Coast Guard (and the civilian leadership) is abominable and unforgivable. The so-called Polar Rollers (the nickname for the Polar Sea and Polar Star because of their sometimes unwieldy tendency to roll heavily due to their lower hull design) have been dockyard queens since their commissioning and have gotten worse as they aged.
I did a stint on the Polar Star with the MH-65 in the mid-1990s, and the amount of work the crew had to expend to keep the ship running was ridiculous. The amount of casualties showed the need for replacement of this hard-worn ship even back then.
The problem is too many cutters were coming up for replacement at the same time and the commandant's office kicked the can down the road. The 210s and 378s date from the 1960s and they were elderly even then. A whole class of patrol boats, the 82-footers, also dated from the same vintage and required replacement. So the Polar-class icebreakers (built in the late 1970s) were not a priority even though many noticed that they were both in bad shape.
The reason the Polar Sea has been used as a parts bin for Polar Star is they can't source many of the parts for the ships and Polar Star was in far better shape than the Polar Sea. The Healy isn't a heavy-duty icebreaker, but it would've been far more logical to have built several more than just the one-off ship that will require a lot of work due to the unavailability of spares.
Another set of icebreakers that don't get much publicity are the vital Bay-class icebreaking tugs that are old as hell and in need of replacement. They break ice on the Great Lakes and on the East Coast and they've been rode hard and put away wet as the fund-starved Coast Guard does with all of their ships.
At least the Coast Guard has somewhat woken up about the need for icebreakers, but the program to build the new Finnish design looks to be in trouble since the yard that is building it on the Mississippi Gulf Coast have never built an icebreaker.
The civilian-sourced new icebreaker (which will be named the Storis, a name I love) will help take a bit of pressure off the Polar Star and the Healy, but what they need is at least six, maybe as many as 10 icebreakers, not to mention replacements for the Bay-class tugs.