This sounds like a serious piece of legislation and I intend to read it before making any detailed comments. I do hope the massive bill says something about commercial fishing, cable layers, ice breakers, cranes, canals, LNG, cruise ships and a variety of other maritime topics.
In the meantime, I would like to know if this bill was written entirely by DC staffers or did Senator Kelly consult anyone at his school at Kings Point or his brother’s school SUNY Maritime.
Excellent points, Pete... And I wonder how much input the US Navy -- or Marines or Coast Guard -- had in this new bill. Just wondering out loud... Either via formal staffing, or side-bar commentary from within the institution? From my reading of ancient history, CNO William Leahy (1937-39) offered deep, meaningful, impactful input to all Navy-related legislation of that era, certainly shipbuilding. Indeed, he represented the Navy at FDR's cabinet and naval-related meetings (52 times!) during his CNO tenure. And much of what came from Congress and FDR's direction had Leahy's fingerprints all over it -- often as not, via Navy commands such as BuShips, BuOrd, etc. Point is... Navy was all over these "Navy building" efforts. It's called... Strategic Planning (as opposed to the modern version of creating capabilities via the wishful thinking of tax credits and business plans).
And don't forget industry!! Is there industrial input here? Again, way back in the late 1930s, legislation enabled industry to expand to meet the looming demand. E.g., US Steel used eminent domain to take over the entire 2nd Ward of Homestead, PA and tear it down to the ground. And then, erect the iconic 48-inch armor plate mill which provided material to ships, tanks and much more until the early 1980s, when the company closed it down and sold it all off for scrap (although many elements did make it into local Pittsburgh museums). Oh, and today that old industrial site is a shopping mall, with restaurants and a Lowes. But I don't think you can buy armor plate at Lowes.
Before committing more money to the problem we need to fix government and society. We can’t afford the welfare/warfare state we have now and certainly cannot afford to expand it.
Typical Capitol Hill response to a problem: create YET ANOTHER massive DC bureaucracy ("Maritime Security Advisor" ... this office will grow) that will fix nothing except increase the size of the federal workforce (um, case in point, see the very dysfunctional Department of Homeland Security). The positions, systems and processes are already in place ... merely appoint (or promote) strong leaders and hold people accountable.
I agree with you. We don't need anymore special bureaucracy, or studies, etc. What we need is new leadership to take the problem by the horns, make sound decisions, and fight for increased budgets upon which execution is directly traceable to results (i.e. a stronger and capable maritime force). We have all the tools already in place to take action.
The last bit of the bill is a little silly, but to be fair it is an STCW thing now. The USCG is already including it on our documents and updating the names of the courses to fall in line with this. I find the changes with aviation things like NOTAMs to be ridiculous, but this time at least this is coming from overseas.
It’s because leftists are not serious people when it comes to serious matters. They are more concerned with ridiculous, juvenile, ancillary bullshit. Their incompetence with serious matters, and unnecessary distractions to serious solutions, are the real threat.
Some of them would seem to be seriously dedicated to seriously bad political/economic theories like Communism and totalitarian policies like Censorship, forced "healthcare" and government control of all aspects of our lives.
Sand fleas, barnacles, sea lice, and terado worms range from annoyance to destructive but you either pay attention to the details or they pay attention to you. Of course it is silly and seems so on the face of it. Some (R) staff member probably threw it in there as a bone to some (D) staffer without even thinking about it. The mindset of accepting the nuisance is what what may ultimately lead to the damage. This request should have been heard, acknowledged, and dismissed out of hand as if the request was for changing the naval paint scheme from haze gray to neon purple and fluorescent orange. "Thank you for you valuable, constructive, and insightful input. We've considered it and will funding gray paint. Next item on the list?"
The rules about requiring trade and government traffic to be aboard US flagged vessels is concerning. We already have rules like that and it hasn't so much improved US ship building as killed the processes that require US flagged ships. I think the key issue to address are the regulatory rules that make ship building so incredibly difficult in the US, otherwise the supply is always going to be horribly choked while the additional demand from these sorts of flag requirements will only serve to bid up the prices. Great if you currently own US flagged vessels, but terrible for everyone else.
I am wondering if adding 250 ships to the Strategic Commercial Fleet is going to pay its own way or is it going to take massive subsidies like Amtrak. Would those 250 new American built and American crewed ships even be able to compete with foreign flagged vessels? Not that it matters much if it increases our ship-building industry and self-reliance. We can't outsource our survival to overseas.
That doesn't solve the underlying problem, however. The underlying problem is that it is all but economically impossible to make ships in the US due to regulatory constraints. Putting a tax on non-US flag carriers doesn't correct that, it only makes everything else more expensive. As there is not an inelastic demand for shipped goods the result will simply be Americans being able to afford less.
I expect Amtrak is a fairly good analogy. I am skeptical that it would even improve our ship-building industry. We have effectively knee capped our native heavy industries; I don't think that offering them a fresh 100$ bill if they can get up and run a quick 100 yard dash is going to be what corrects their shattered legs. Most likely a lot of money will get poured into committees and design teams, and in the next administration the whole project will be quietly shuttered.
Was wondering the same thing: did Hegseth drop out? Gotta admit, I’ve been blissfully away from all the political mess with Christmas upon us, enjoying time with friends and family. Thought I’d missed something re. SECDEF nominee.
At this point all we have a rah-rah promise of new appointees and "policy", which will avail us nothing. The PLAN is running light years inside our OODA loop. We simply don't have the time to develop oilers and stores ships from scratch. We *might* have the time to pull up the ABS-approved drawing sets for several current classes of ships and kick butt in NAVSEA to have them figure out what minimal changes would be needed to get them in line parts-wise with our current MSC fleet. We cannot rest satisfied with "Well, you know how Washington is."
So my wife's "work husband" of 30 years is now a Senior VP at this pretty big company (has ~30,000 folks working for him). Before he got into the biz he is in now, he started working on the Lakers...the still operating Phillip R. Clarke, as a matter of fact.
Check her out threading this swing bridge unassisted. For the SWO's.... Are you up for that?
The last time a Navy ship was in Duluth, the harbor pilot banged the starboard quarter on the pier right before a commissioning. I was there, heard it, and saw the mark. If they'd taken a few minutes more to correctly line the ship up before coming alongside, no incident.
The gents (and ladies) driving the Lakers can give a Master Class in close quarters shiphandling.
When I am at the boatyard on the Calumet, I marvel at them "parking" their 700 foot Welland Max ships between the 95th St. bridge (the one the Blues Brothers "jumped over" in the movie), and the railroad bridge waiting for the trains to pass and it can open.
This is one of my favorites. Too much ice alongside the pier? Well. Just cast loose your 800 foot long tow in a tiny harbor, and go swish it out!
Gotta be mighty comfortable with your skills to do this...
This a good one too. You can see the crazy conditions on the lake, and winds in the harbor. Just need to pivot your 1000 foot ship (I know. "Footers". But Southern Boi me cant help adding the thousand) 90 degrees into that freezing crosswind, and not cause a cataclysm?
On the day the Indianapolis came down the coast to Burns Harbor for her commissioning, I was taking the LPTB down to the barn for the winter on the Calumet. She came in close to the beach by NTC and continued south about 3 miles off the shore down past Chicago before turning southeast (was watching her on AIS). It was a crappy wet day with lousy viz, so if the plan was to show her off to the city (laudable idea) It didnt work because as she passed me while I was by the Dever crib, I could barely see her visually. Any of the few folks who would haven been out in the raw conditions along the lakeshore wouldn't have seen her unless they knew just where to look.
She never knew one of the most [conceptually] implacable LCS foes was lurking just inshore!
It was so yucky, a little sparrow flitted aboard abeam Soldier Field, and rode with me until I got inside the breakwater of the Calumet.
I think you will find the appetite for increased defense spending to not be what you would like until a hot conflict actually breaks out.
On Dec 7th, 1941 we had 112 submarines in the US fleet.
Over the course of WW2 we built another 228 and I think we can all agree that the silent service did more hollow out the Japanese empire than any other branch.
There is no guarantee that war will break out.
President Trump will have his opportunity to convince his counterpart that such a war would lead to ruin and mass starvation for the Chinese people.
I hope he is successful. If he’s not and the PRC decides to start a war then we would simply mobilize as we did before and then steam west and begin to dislodge them the same way we did the Japanese.
China will have the same problem that Germany and Japan did. No ability to reach out across the oceans and destroy our manufacturing capability. Short of nuclear Armageddon, how would they do it?
China, unfortunately doesn’t have that same luxury. They are much closer to our allied bases. Japan, South Korea, the Phillipines, Vietnam would likely want to assist us as well as Australia.
China will depend on Russian fuel and food to keep fighting and those supply lines would honestly be within our capability to sever.
Our energy and food supplies are mostly organic and I think we could hold the line until increased numbers allow us to go back on the offensive.
Again, this is all assuming that things degrade to a point of conflict.
I could be wrong. As most know by now I’m not a certified expert. It’s more intuition where I just try to put myself in the situation of the other person and think about what is driving them and what their goals are.
Right now Xi will go down as the leader who had the watch during some of the greatest growth and prosperity of his country. It will decline some as a result of demographics but he wouldn’t be blamed for that.
If he launched a war which resulted in terrible defeat and suffering for his people then the history books would read a little differently wouldn’t they?
And that assumes the opening hours of a conflict doesn't involve finding out how many cruise missiles you can launch from a container ship off-shore before someone stops them.
More than you think. IN, PA, NC, AL, TX, OR and Iowa. 14 in the US, plus 1 in Mexico and two in Canada. When you get over 76mm thick you are down to 6 plus MX and CA. At least per the AIST 2023 directory. But I'll note the only West Coast plate mill is owned by the Russians and hasn't made steel in decades, it works on slabs delivered to the mill.
Just some thoughts. "If...the PRC decides to start a war then we would simply mobilize as we did before and then steam west and begin to dislodge them the same way we did the Japanese." We no longer have the industry, nor can we mobilize quickly. We rely on China for a great many imports. Unrestricted submarine warfare against us could maybe be as crippling to us as it was to Japan. And I think that in whatever future war we get engaged in we won't have reliable strong allies. We have not proven ourselves trustworthy of late. Fence sitters may throw in with what they may see as a winner, China. That's the sad reality I dwell on.
The voice of a skeptic...all the money in the world won't make a difference to the US Navy if all we can do is build tiffany ships (to borrow an accurate phrase from the good CDR) that are overpriced, underperforming, and get delivered years late.
Between his staunch support for draconian gun control, complete willful blindness about the border (he being from a state directly affected), and in general supportive of the Democratic "All Things Woke", I am no fan of Sen. Kelly.
Good ships are built by good men and women who will never have the respect they deserve.
CDR,
This sounds like a serious piece of legislation and I intend to read it before making any detailed comments. I do hope the massive bill says something about commercial fishing, cable layers, ice breakers, cranes, canals, LNG, cruise ships and a variety of other maritime topics.
In the meantime, I would like to know if this bill was written entirely by DC staffers or did Senator Kelly consult anyone at his school at Kings Point or his brother’s school SUNY Maritime.
Excellent points, Pete... And I wonder how much input the US Navy -- or Marines or Coast Guard -- had in this new bill. Just wondering out loud... Either via formal staffing, or side-bar commentary from within the institution? From my reading of ancient history, CNO William Leahy (1937-39) offered deep, meaningful, impactful input to all Navy-related legislation of that era, certainly shipbuilding. Indeed, he represented the Navy at FDR's cabinet and naval-related meetings (52 times!) during his CNO tenure. And much of what came from Congress and FDR's direction had Leahy's fingerprints all over it -- often as not, via Navy commands such as BuShips, BuOrd, etc. Point is... Navy was all over these "Navy building" efforts. It's called... Strategic Planning (as opposed to the modern version of creating capabilities via the wishful thinking of tax credits and business plans).
And don't forget industry!! Is there industrial input here? Again, way back in the late 1930s, legislation enabled industry to expand to meet the looming demand. E.g., US Steel used eminent domain to take over the entire 2nd Ward of Homestead, PA and tear it down to the ground. And then, erect the iconic 48-inch armor plate mill which provided material to ships, tanks and much more until the early 1980s, when the company closed it down and sold it all off for scrap (although many elements did make it into local Pittsburgh museums). Oh, and today that old industrial site is a shopping mall, with restaurants and a Lowes. But I don't think you can buy armor plate at Lowes.
"But I don't think you can buy armor plate at Lowes"
In a just world we could buy Level 4 at minimum.
BZ BZ BZ BZ WELL DONE!!!
Before committing more money to the problem we need to fix government and society. We can’t afford the welfare/warfare state we have now and certainly cannot afford to expand it.
Replace "seaman" with "ye scurvy dogs". FIFY.
CNO Richardson. Wow. I had forgotten that name. A forgettable era. Lesson…. If you want to be remembered, don’t be forgettable.
Typical Capitol Hill response to a problem: create YET ANOTHER massive DC bureaucracy ("Maritime Security Advisor" ... this office will grow) that will fix nothing except increase the size of the federal workforce (um, case in point, see the very dysfunctional Department of Homeland Security). The positions, systems and processes are already in place ... merely appoint (or promote) strong leaders and hold people accountable.
Mark,
I agree with you. We don't need anymore special bureaucracy, or studies, etc. What we need is new leadership to take the problem by the horns, make sound decisions, and fight for increased budgets upon which execution is directly traceable to results (i.e. a stronger and capable maritime force). We have all the tools already in place to take action.
Seems like we could separate the Navy from DoD and resurrect the Department of the Navy with Secretary of the Navy as a cabinet post
Every modern historian knows that Themistocles and Leonidas would have been incapable of interoperability without Goldwater–Nichols.
Didn’t Herodotus take JPME I and II?
The last bit of the bill is a little silly, but to be fair it is an STCW thing now. The USCG is already including it on our documents and updating the names of the courses to fall in line with this. I find the changes with aviation things like NOTAMs to be ridiculous, but this time at least this is coming from overseas.
It’s because leftists are not serious people when it comes to serious matters. They are more concerned with ridiculous, juvenile, ancillary bullshit. Their incompetence with serious matters, and unnecessary distractions to serious solutions, are the real threat.
Some of them would seem to be seriously dedicated to seriously bad political/economic theories like Communism and totalitarian policies like Censorship, forced "healthcare" and government control of all aspects of our lives.
Indeed. Leftist are very serious about getting and keeping power.
Sand fleas, barnacles, sea lice, and terado worms range from annoyance to destructive but you either pay attention to the details or they pay attention to you. Of course it is silly and seems so on the face of it. Some (R) staff member probably threw it in there as a bone to some (D) staffer without even thinking about it. The mindset of accepting the nuisance is what what may ultimately lead to the damage. This request should have been heard, acknowledged, and dismissed out of hand as if the request was for changing the naval paint scheme from haze gray to neon purple and fluorescent orange. "Thank you for you valuable, constructive, and insightful input. We've considered it and will funding gray paint. Next item on the list?"
The rules about requiring trade and government traffic to be aboard US flagged vessels is concerning. We already have rules like that and it hasn't so much improved US ship building as killed the processes that require US flagged ships. I think the key issue to address are the regulatory rules that make ship building so incredibly difficult in the US, otherwise the supply is always going to be horribly choked while the additional demand from these sorts of flag requirements will only serve to bid up the prices. Great if you currently own US flagged vessels, but terrible for everyone else.
I am wondering if adding 250 ships to the Strategic Commercial Fleet is going to pay its own way or is it going to take massive subsidies like Amtrak. Would those 250 new American built and American crewed ships even be able to compete with foreign flagged vessels? Not that it matters much if it increases our ship-building industry and self-reliance. We can't outsource our survival to overseas.
Put some nearly nominal charge per ton/container imported on non-us flag carriers. Say $1/ton or $50/container.
That doesn't solve the underlying problem, however. The underlying problem is that it is all but economically impossible to make ships in the US due to regulatory constraints. Putting a tax on non-US flag carriers doesn't correct that, it only makes everything else more expensive. As there is not an inelastic demand for shipped goods the result will simply be Americans being able to afford less.
I expect Amtrak is a fairly good analogy. I am skeptical that it would even improve our ship-building industry. We have effectively knee capped our native heavy industries; I don't think that offering them a fresh 100$ bill if they can get up and run a quick 100 yard dash is going to be what corrects their shattered legs. Most likely a lot of money will get poured into committees and design teams, and in the next administration the whole project will be quietly shuttered.
"With the likely confirmation of Rep. Mike Waltz (R-FL) as the next SECDEF who is fully aligned on this topic—expect great things—but not yet."
Waltz is the Nat Sec Advisor not SECDEF. Mistake or are you implying Pete isn't going to make it?
Thanks for the heads up. That is just me typing without thinking. Mefixie…and a gold star happy face to you!
Was wondering the same thing: did Hegseth drop out? Gotta admit, I’ve been blissfully away from all the political mess with Christmas upon us, enjoying time with friends and family. Thought I’d missed something re. SECDEF nominee.
So this will be like the MARAD program that gave us the CIMMARONS and ALDEBERANS, just in the nick of time for WWI?
For WWII, not WWI.
At this point all we have a rah-rah promise of new appointees and "policy", which will avail us nothing. The PLAN is running light years inside our OODA loop. We simply don't have the time to develop oilers and stores ships from scratch. We *might* have the time to pull up the ABS-approved drawing sets for several current classes of ships and kick butt in NAVSEA to have them figure out what minimal changes would be needed to get them in line parts-wise with our current MSC fleet. We cannot rest satisfied with "Well, you know how Washington is."
Anent the last item, Michael Walsh (the author) had this to say about the left, “Remember -- they never stop, they never sleep, they never quit.”
So my wife's "work husband" of 30 years is now a Senior VP at this pretty big company (has ~30,000 folks working for him). Before he got into the biz he is in now, he started working on the Lakers...the still operating Phillip R. Clarke, as a matter of fact.
Check her out threading this swing bridge unassisted. For the SWO's.... Are you up for that?
https://youtu.be/nXD7U1AfCoA?si=SdqG0-TXNZKD1CIE
Another vid of her standing out of Duluth the other day...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FirsNHk41AY
Yes. She only operates ~9 months out of the year in fresh water.
But still. She is 72 years old. And videoed here near the end of nonstop operations since March.
You can see that keeping a ship in good shape makes all the difference in the world.
But I digress.
He held both a Seaman and a Wiper ticket . When they met years ago he showed her the cards.
My wife...being my wife...took a look and said...
Oh. Oh! I see!! You're a seaman/wiper!!!
ISYN. We were all laughing about it the other day.
The last time a Navy ship was in Duluth, the harbor pilot banged the starboard quarter on the pier right before a commissioning. I was there, heard it, and saw the mark. If they'd taken a few minutes more to correctly line the ship up before coming alongside, no incident.
The gents (and ladies) driving the Lakers can give a Master Class in close quarters shiphandling.
When I am at the boatyard on the Calumet, I marvel at them "parking" their 700 foot Welland Max ships between the 95th St. bridge (the one the Blues Brothers "jumped over" in the movie), and the railroad bridge waiting for the trains to pass and it can open.
This is one of my favorites. Too much ice alongside the pier? Well. Just cast loose your 800 foot long tow in a tiny harbor, and go swish it out!
Gotta be mighty comfortable with your skills to do this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X1bM60C1yE
This a good one too. You can see the crazy conditions on the lake, and winds in the harbor. Just need to pivot your 1000 foot ship (I know. "Footers". But Southern Boi me cant help adding the thousand) 90 degrees into that freezing crosswind, and not cause a cataclysm?
Easy Peasy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LC5554ziHuc
A pilot would be used to a bow thruster! ;-)
Trying to remember which LCS that was...
I know the foreign flagged vessels on the Lakes pick up pilots, but the Marinnette built boats do to?
None of the US flagged Lakers do.
Oh well. Kinda puts a dent on the idea LCS's can make use of ports in places across the World's Littorals unassisted easily
Minneapolis-St. Paul (LCS-21) for her commissioning in May of 2022. The day of the ceremony was around 40° with sleet.
Ah yes...
On the day the Indianapolis came down the coast to Burns Harbor for her commissioning, I was taking the LPTB down to the barn for the winter on the Calumet. She came in close to the beach by NTC and continued south about 3 miles off the shore down past Chicago before turning southeast (was watching her on AIS). It was a crappy wet day with lousy viz, so if the plan was to show her off to the city (laudable idea) It didnt work because as she passed me while I was by the Dever crib, I could barely see her visually. Any of the few folks who would haven been out in the raw conditions along the lakeshore wouldn't have seen her unless they knew just where to look.
She never knew one of the most [conceptually] implacable LCS foes was lurking just inshore!
It was so yucky, a little sparrow flitted aboard abeam Soldier Field, and rode with me until I got inside the breakwater of the Calumet.
Forgot to add...
Waterjets, the wind that I'm sure was with that sleet, lots of freeboard, and the slow speed.
What can go wrong?
The day she came in was practically perfect, and they had the time and space to get lined up. It was right across from Lake Superior Warehousing.
Ahh...
Well...
You should see me try to dock my rotund LPTB.
"But For The Grace of God There Go I"
I think you will find the appetite for increased defense spending to not be what you would like until a hot conflict actually breaks out.
On Dec 7th, 1941 we had 112 submarines in the US fleet.
Over the course of WW2 we built another 228 and I think we can all agree that the silent service did more hollow out the Japanese empire than any other branch.
There is no guarantee that war will break out.
President Trump will have his opportunity to convince his counterpart that such a war would lead to ruin and mass starvation for the Chinese people.
I hope he is successful. If he’s not and the PRC decides to start a war then we would simply mobilize as we did before and then steam west and begin to dislodge them the same way we did the Japanese.
China will have the same problem that Germany and Japan did. No ability to reach out across the oceans and destroy our manufacturing capability. Short of nuclear Armageddon, how would they do it?
China, unfortunately doesn’t have that same luxury. They are much closer to our allied bases. Japan, South Korea, the Phillipines, Vietnam would likely want to assist us as well as Australia.
China will depend on Russian fuel and food to keep fighting and those supply lines would honestly be within our capability to sever.
Our energy and food supplies are mostly organic and I think we could hold the line until increased numbers allow us to go back on the offensive.
Again, this is all assuming that things degrade to a point of conflict.
I could be wrong. As most know by now I’m not a certified expert. It’s more intuition where I just try to put myself in the situation of the other person and think about what is driving them and what their goals are.
Right now Xi will go down as the leader who had the watch during some of the greatest growth and prosperity of his country. It will decline some as a result of demographics but he wouldn’t be blamed for that.
If he launched a war which resulted in terrible defeat and suffering for his people then the history books would read a little differently wouldn’t they?
Just some thoughts.
Have a good Monday.
>China will have the same problem that Germany and Japan did. No ability to reach out across the oceans and destroy our manufacturing capability. <
Are you sure about that? https://aviationweek.com/defense/missile-defense-weapons/pentagon-china-may-be-developing-conventional-icbms
And that assumes the opening hours of a conflict doesn't involve finding out how many cruise missiles you can launch from a container ship off-shore before someone stops them.
China already destroyed our manufacturing capability. Does any steel mill in America still make plates?
More than you think. IN, PA, NC, AL, TX, OR and Iowa. 14 in the US, plus 1 in Mexico and two in Canada. When you get over 76mm thick you are down to 6 plus MX and CA. At least per the AIST 2023 directory. But I'll note the only West Coast plate mill is owned by the Russians and hasn't made steel in decades, it works on slabs delivered to the mill.
Just some thoughts. "If...the PRC decides to start a war then we would simply mobilize as we did before and then steam west and begin to dislodge them the same way we did the Japanese." We no longer have the industry, nor can we mobilize quickly. We rely on China for a great many imports. Unrestricted submarine warfare against us could maybe be as crippling to us as it was to Japan. And I think that in whatever future war we get engaged in we won't have reliable strong allies. We have not proven ourselves trustworthy of late. Fence sitters may throw in with what they may see as a winner, China. That's the sad reality I dwell on.
Rep. Mike Waltz (R-FL) is nominated to NSA, not SECDEF
The voice of a skeptic...all the money in the world won't make a difference to the US Navy if all we can do is build tiffany ships (to borrow an accurate phrase from the good CDR) that are overpriced, underperforming, and get delivered years late.
Between his staunch support for draconian gun control, complete willful blindness about the border (he being from a state directly affected), and in general supportive of the Democratic "All Things Woke", I am no fan of Sen. Kelly.
But I do hope something good comes of this.