We spend huge amounts housing illegals, flying them around the country, and providing them other benefits and we don't fund our own defense? When will the adults get back in charge?
According to "Newsweek" the 2023 cost was $150.7 BILLION. USS Ford cost to build: $15 billion. what could we have done with the other $135 billion? But5 somehow the DC elites can't find money to pay our enlisted more, to fund the required maintenance facilities so 40% of subs are not in a maintenance hell, build drydocks, fund tenders, and finally come up with a real LONG RANGE attack A/C - either manned or unmanned- that can carry 14000 lbs out to 1000 nm and return home.
My reading of history is that the adults are never in charge until there’s an actual war involving national survival. My reading also suggests that the next time that happens, we will not have enough time for any adults to react.
Yes, I was just hoping for more detail. According to Wikipedia we have 9 carrier air wings. I assume they also need time to recover from deployments, train, etc. and can’t just transfer from an incoming carrier to an outgoing one.
I might suggest the math on actually manning such a scenario will come up quite short as will the $$$$$$$$$'s to equip, maintain and operate said number of CVNs.
Especially after you add the battle group. And not today's absurd "one CG and a DDG or two"- With today's threat, each carrier should have the ColdWar group, plus!!
I think an ideal CVBG would be four CVNs, each having ten escorts, with fifteen being better to give more defensive depth. So yes, that'd mean most of the Burkes we have.
That's upwards of 30k sailors!! Kindergarten numbers during WWII, but today??? Yeah, likely problematic!!
There is no skirting the demographic headaches we face. Technical wizardry of "uncrewed" vessels may eventually reduce manning meaningfully, but that remains to be validated at scale and the entire logistics picture for said uncrewed fleet has not been fleshed out either. We are not manning a 350 hull fleet anytime soon... we just are not.
At that time England ruled one quarter of the world, had the largest navy and was the workshop of and creditor to the world. What could possible have gone wrong? What could possibly go wrong for America today?
England rode free trade from Peele’s repeal of the Corn Laws until Churchill. After that they slipped into the despair that always accompanies Mercantilism.
You look at free trade and see lower prices. I look at free trade and see factories and jobs moving to China leaving behind ghost towns filled with despair. You should visit Bethlehem PA and the tacky casino and outlet center that sits on top of the ruins of one of the greatest companies in American history.
Free trade is nothing more than free enterprise over the oceans. The folks opposed to free trade have a name. Their economic theory is called Mercantilism. It is as rotten and dysfunctional as the other isms. Free trade and free enterprise lead inexorably to the wealth of nations.
We are indeed stretched thin - reminds me of life aboard CVN FIRST SHIP when we banged out two combat cruises - and a surprise surge cruise - during a three year JO sea tour. Every day I turn on the news expecting to hear that IKE's headed back out on a "double pump"...
If the "New Management" over in the UK follows through on their political promises and cuts their defense budget, they may be willing to sell the QE or the Prince of Wales. While not immediately CATOBAR capable, they can deploy three squadrons of USMC F-35Bs until the necessary deck modifications occur. I know, no Organic AEW or EW capability, but you have 5th Gen Aircraft in your CBG.
Just fyi, the last major review of the CVN availability issue conducted on my watch at Fleet Forces showed we needed 16 CVNs and 12 CVWs to sustain 3 CSGs forward deployed (1 each committed to CENTCOM, PACOM AND EUCOM) while also ensuring required operational training and maintenance is fully and properly conducted for the non-deployed CVNs/CVWs.
A properly resourced 16 CVN/12 CVW force (people, munitions, maintenance, etc, etc) also
enables a 4-5 CVN "surge" within 4 months with little notice.
The Single Yard issue complicates things. Only NNS can build a CVN. And duplicating the construction infrastructure there would take years and cost billions.
You could go to a CV design, but again where would you build her? Two yards get you 1 CVN and 1 CV every 4 years which barely replaces retirements of the Nimitz class.
Do you need to "fight" EPA? You know what the EPA regs are, so that's just part of the engineering specs, manufacturing specs. If you or contractors allow a culture of trying to bypass or sneak past EPA requirements then don't be surprised when you get caught and you have to start that piece over and your timetable is shot to hell. Don't blame that on the EPA, don't let contractors blame it on EPA. Don't allow contractors to have a culture of sneaking around EPA and other regulations. The EPA is preventing the contractors from poisoning the water, ground, air food and workers so everybody's families aren't poisoned for company profit.
The slowdown is in Congress where we need to educate Congress that world eyes are on Putin in Ukraine, and Xi will be emboldened if we dont stop Putin. China is moving in the Pacific, we need more ships. Diplomacy works when backed up by strength. Teddy Roosevelt's "Speak softly but carry a big stick." America's diplomacy works because America has "Big Stick" military, lots of bases around the world and carrier strike groups cruising by troublesome nations.
All domestic issues combined don't equal the looming threat of China in the Pacific.
Can we afford it? Of course we can. In the early 1950's the corporate tax rate was 90% and it worked well because all re-investment into greater production was exempt. Today many companies and billionaires pay paltry income tax. They should be ashamed. If we properly taxed the ultra wealthy we could pay for an entire carrier and accompanying ships in one year. Plus, Bezos and Gates and Musk each have enough assets to buy an entire carrier group. Each. We as a country decided to not tax them much, so that instead of having money for defense (and domestic costs) we thought it was better for those individuals to have that money. There's money for a second shipbuilding yard.
In the 1950s, spending on social programs was tiny, and defense was considered important. More important than buying votes with "free stuff." And the interest on the national debt then was chump change. Today interest on the debt is damn near what we spend on defense.
Your confiscatory tax rates sound good, but experience has proven that tax revenue increases when tax rates are lower.
We no longer live in the 1950s, for better or worse, probably worse.
Ship building, ship repair and ship maintenance all come at a cost. Stop thinking that the Navy is all about poisoning the environment and pissing in its own pool.
Our ships are rusting, our crews can’t maintain them and a major part of the “regulatory” process literally causes CO’s to piss their pants if there is a fuel leak, or oil leak etc.
You haven’t tried to order whiteout from a servmart list I see.
I'd submit that defense dept should have some general waivers about environmental policy, especially if it interferes in a serious way with readiness, combat capability, maintenance, procurement, etc...
I'm not saying "go ahead n dump that used gearbox oil overboard", but for f*** sake, let the sailors in San Diego chip some damn paint!!!
And if we need to dig a 1200 foot long hole for a dry dock, the heck with the 7 years of impact statements. Just let em dig the hole!! We're cutting our own throat when the enviro-nuts are holding the military hostage...
"Properly taxed the ultra-wealthy"? What economic degree do you have? Hmmm, wondering if you've ever owned a "small business" and written a 7 figure check to the IRS after a very successful year? It is called "income tax", not "wealth tax" for a reason.
And the issue with the EPA - as the Supreme Court just ruled - is that the EPA rules by unelected staffer whims, and not laws enacted by Congress. The last 30 years is filled with EPA over-reach.
A prime example is California. Taxing the “rich” and giving it to the “poor” isn’t working. People that produce and over taxed leave and the consumers remain until everything is well… consumed. People that produce and corporations that provide jobs should have less tax actually. Fiscal responsibility and integrity is key and productive people should never be made to fix what the government spoils or gives away.
Fastest laid to launch in NNS 12 was Stennis at exactly 32 months. Rand studies what would be needed to do 24 or 30 month builds. Extending the dock was one of them so 2 can be built in the dock simo. That extension was built and Enterprise and Miller will both be built in the dock simo. I'm for block buys of 3 ships every 8 years (32 month centers). Get to 10 Fords faster. See about establishing 2 carriers in reserve possibly skipping dome RCOH for a new build strategy. See what we can do to stretch reactor refuelings since we already appear to be stretching refuelings to 26 years.
(yes, this missive is related in a tangential way in the context of carrier viability...)
Adm. Harvey, some years back, you commented that CC Smith was your first skipper on the Enterprise, and as I remember you said quite positive things about him.
He and dad were squadron mates and friends in Heavy Attack. I mentioned your remarks to my mom dad had passed away some years before), and she said that didn't surprise her! She was good friends with his wife.
So, you might say that is some (many may say dubiously apocryphal) objective proof CC was exceptional, and his ascension to 3 stars was definitely deserved. Its a travesty he was taken so young.
Anyway, you may not be aware that he (along with some other stellar Naval Aviators like Pat O'Gara, and Jack Youngblade) saved the Vigilante program. As sexy and beautiful as that aircraft was, it was a programmatic failure. Our porch host often speaks of good people making an otherwise suboptimal platform work, well, those 3 gents were some of the best examples to be had.
At its fleet introduction, the A-5 (A3J), built to be the USN's supersonic nuke attack aircraft for the mission that the carriers' very existence was then predicated upon... Strategic Strike from the Sea.
Only problem was, it didn't work. Its "transformational" linear bomb bay defied all efforts to reliably release a weapons package. Good thing for the USN -and its carriers- Polaris came in as a resounding success, and the carriers could quickly pivot back to a conventional attack posture.
The Vigis were then repurposed as a recce aircraft just as Vietnam spooled up. And they got whacked. So much for that flawed "Speed is Life" mantra. It sure wasn't working for the fastest aircraft in the USN inventory. At the height of the air war, the Cdr Smith skippered RVAH-6.
He was the one who took this first definitive pic of Hoa La prison on that cruise...
He also brought Heavy Six home with no losses. A feat that I don't think was matched by any other Vigi squadron deployed to Vietnam. He and his squadron developed the tactics allowed the RA-5 to be survivable over north Vietnam.
The next year, when COMCARDIV 3 RAdm Gerry Miller forbade the embarked Vigi squadron to fly over North Vietnam, because deemed the aircraft unsurvivable in that environment, Cdr Smith went out to WestPac to get things back on track.
Anyway, given the secretive and closed mouth nature of the RA-5 community, and I thought you may have never heard about all this backstory...
So, how is that tale related to the discussion at hand?
For the first time since 1945, the US carrier force is threatened by a Peer that is specifically charting its destruction (I will argue the Cold War threats were always tempered by the overarching MAD doctrine).
Hopefully, there are some Good People who will be able to step up, and steer things from the decades long employment of the CVN's as unthreatened joint air bases which happen to be at sea, to an effective fighting force that can prevail against the conflicts that are looming.
Thanks very much for taking the time to give me so much of the back-story on VAdm Smith and the Vigilante.
The Big E was my first ship and an incredibly formative experience for me - my LCPO was the finest Chief I ever served with and CC set the standard for how to command a ship.
Sid, My dad and your dad may have been shipmates. My dad was an AT1 flight deck trouble shooter in VA97 for the 1973-74 and 75-76 westpacs. I got to say good by to him many times and wait for him come back home to NAS Lemoore. I remember meeting Capt Smith on a family day event on Big E. He was a kind man. The crew loved him and my father spoke well of him.
Actually dad was on his twighlight tour in Pensacola by that time.
(time to bother everyone with another factoid...)
Watching the Blue Angels documentary on Amazon, I was looking at some of the scenes of the skipper being interviewed, I was thinking the interior of the house looked alot like ours.
Lo and behold, there was a shot of a sign showing Quarters 34... We lived in Quarters 35! Those houses were built by the Army in the 1850s for Fort Barrancas btw. There is a house at the Fort at Mackinac Island built to the same basic deign.
That row of houses was called menopause row
when we lived there..
Anyway, they interviewed the skipper's wife on the porch (with a view of our
old house in the
background), then later
there is a good view of 35
as they were trundleing
their kids into the truck.
The porches on those houses are spectacular! So it resonated when our host started speaking of
"The Porch"
Pics taken in the 70s of Qtrs 34 with 35 in the background. When the house was put in the Historical Register.
Forgot the Blues were coming to town this weekend, and after some blustery days was able to get up the mast to troubleshoot my VHF antenna on the LPTB. (Little Plastic Toy Boat).
Turns out the yard birds tore up the antenna when I brought the LPTB in for layup last fall, and water got into it.
Yards can screw up an anvil if you don't watch
them like a hawk!!!
Same goes for Big Serious Gray Boats.
Got a good view of the practice while up the mast though. And now they're back.
On another note, I would presume you also knew Jim Pirrotte, Ops Officer then.
He was one of the last 1310's who had to spend time as a Bombardier in the A-3's. The NFO program was stood up, and in Sanford, many of the first NFO's were crusty Mustangs...
I have a couple memories of that colorful character.
When I was very small (kindergarten maybe)I heard that Mr. Pirrotte was the purveyor of a "snake ranch". When I asked my parents if we could go see the snakes, they were curiously evasive... I figured things out some years later.
Around the same time, there was a squadron party at our house out in the back yard by the lake. I heard a small plane, and confused about that, saw Mr. Pirrote taxiing up in a float plane. The back seat was loaded with cases of beer.
Thats not impugn his aviating acumen in any way. You can read the Grampaw Pettibone column in this Oct. 67 Navair News to see what Gramps thought.
See the "Waveslapper" entry. In retrospect, his floatplane skills may have helped to save things!
Admiral, you were a shipmate of my fathers during that time. You guys had some fantastic port calls. I still have a boomerang my dad brought back from Tasmania.
We are in more conflicts than we were when we had 16 carriers and could barely hadle the workload then. We tried to convince the Navy not to down size, but they did, including decommissioning Air Wings. It takes years to build a carrier, and about the same time to build up the Air Wing to go with it, assuming you have the airplanes to man them and personnel to fill them.
Sadly, the Navy seems to worry more about DIE and Pentagon self-licking ice cream cone projects like minimum manning and TQL, rather than warfighting and strategic/tactical planning. Glad I served when I did.
When you are overextended you withdraw to defensible positions.
Imagine being hit simultaneously in several places at once. It could happen.
You think it’s bad when the DJIA falls due to slumping retails sales or when some company fails to meet expectations? Imagine what would happen if a CVN is sunk.
Understood that to be a joke. Left off the smiley face emoji... I think we can safely assume anything in the first and second island chain are candidates for a lot of ballistic missile love. Lot of tanga tanga on Guam... so I would be thinking really hard about ways of turning Guam into the most densely packed air defense zone in the world.
Sink? Nevah happen, SGT. Not sayin' that was misinformationish...I am chalking that up to a gummy keyboard. Happens to me all the time. RC Cola & pork rinds. I sometimes get whole sentences, even paragraphs ruined. Let's remember that Congressman Johnson (D-GA) said Guam might "tip over". The man never said "sink". Might capsize if a Taylor Swift concert didn't think it wise to employ a loadmaster, though.
Might be time to reconsider the model; maybe approach the problem supercarriers are meant to be solving from a different direction?
Seems overcapitalised to the point of inflexibility. Particularly since they aren't meant to fight alone, in a real fight. Yet will almost always be a solo 'Group' rather than a multi-CVN 'Force'.
And particularly given the average CVW is about 2/3rd the late Cold War average. With no prospect of a meaningful increase.
Can another CVN Ford class be justified, at ~$14B? With all of its design quirks?
Paradigm seems broken at every level. It had a good run. But it seems to have fallen off the cost curve in recent decades.
Hear me out: Once again, I plead for more land-based Naval Air. P-8s, C-130s, F-15EX and/or Super Hornets. Some obvious sites: Solomons, Philippines, Gulf States, Greece, Iceland, and Alaska. Relieve the pressure on CBGs in case of wartime.
Then we'll probably want a couple Lightning Carriers, too. Use F-35Bs on them for either strike or CAP; let the Ford or Nimitz they're traveling with have more in the other usage. Or have one of them be the Air support for a MEU, let the Burkes do NGSF for support on land. Just my $0.02.
More aircraft can happen much easier than more ships. That's the pitch. At least until we start building useful combatants for the price of a P-8 or B-21. Might be better for surface navy to have more general patrol value and stop pressing so hard to spend a lot for only a little strike payback.
Toss in a healthy dose of mismanagement at the Marine Corps level with 4 and going on 5 years of Divest to Invest and Force Design 2030 and you have a stew of failure brewing. Further, even if we had a fully vetted and robust "seagoing" defense budget, we do not have the free shipyard capability or the skilled workers to the new vessels needed together, and repair the existing fleet. USS Boxer and USS WASP are classic case studies of a fleet that wants to float but cannot. We have nearly a trillion dollar defense budget...where is the money truly going, and more importantly "who's watching the store??"
Our fleet design should take into consideration what our shipbuilding industry can best help build. LSM and OPC sized ships could be produced many places as could any new uses for auxiliary hulls.
We spend huge amounts housing illegals, flying them around the country, and providing them other benefits and we don't fund our own defense? When will the adults get back in charge?
Hopefully next January.
Add to that the billions wasted on enviromental lawsuits.
The adults will get back in charge when adults are the majority of the electorate. And in charge of the electoral process.
According to "Newsweek" the 2023 cost was $150.7 BILLION. USS Ford cost to build: $15 billion. what could we have done with the other $135 billion? But5 somehow the DC elites can't find money to pay our enlisted more, to fund the required maintenance facilities so 40% of subs are not in a maintenance hell, build drydocks, fund tenders, and finally come up with a real LONG RANGE attack A/C - either manned or unmanned- that can carry 14000 lbs out to 1000 nm and return home.
My reading of history is that the adults are never in charge until there’s an actual war involving national survival. My reading also suggests that the next time that happens, we will not have enough time for any adults to react.
What about available carrier air groups? If I recall correctly, we have fewer of them than we have carriers.
The penultimate paragraph of Sal's post touches on the situation with birds to put on those flight decks.
Yes, I was just hoping for more detail. According to Wikipedia we have 9 carrier air wings. I assume they also need time to recover from deployments, train, etc. and can’t just transfer from an incoming carrier to an outgoing one.
How about USMC Air Wing Assets?
They will be jammed into the America for a “Lightning Carrier”
Fixed wing are already part of those carrier wings aren't they?
The USMC has two C squadrons that are integrated.
What about the legacy, former USN F-18's the USMC received a few years back?
It's FUBAR. There's your detail. The parts situation is even worse.
There was a time when we had almost 150 carriers. Granted, over 100 were CVEs, but we are not living in a world 14 times safer than we were in 1947.
Why can't we have 30 CVNs?
I might suggest the math on actually manning such a scenario will come up quite short as will the $$$$$$$$$'s to equip, maintain and operate said number of CVNs.
Especially after you add the battle group. And not today's absurd "one CG and a DDG or two"- With today's threat, each carrier should have the ColdWar group, plus!!
I think an ideal CVBG would be four CVNs, each having ten escorts, with fifteen being better to give more defensive depth. So yes, that'd mean most of the Burkes we have.
That's upwards of 30k sailors!! Kindergarten numbers during WWII, but today??? Yeah, likely problematic!!
There is no skirting the demographic headaches we face. Technical wizardry of "uncrewed" vessels may eventually reduce manning meaningfully, but that remains to be validated at scale and the entire logistics picture for said uncrewed fleet has not been fleshed out either. We are not manning a 350 hull fleet anytime soon... we just are not.
Don't need 30 of them. A mix of Fords + conventional & smaller ones would do.
Anyone thinking of VSTOL F-35 carriers can shut up though.
CATOBAR CV''s are an option but didn't Congress call for all CVN?
Love this. Pushing the message: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/markfedeli_what-do-you-mean-were-an-11-carrier-navy-activity-7226933780991619073-JTgJ
Do the math. More votes per dollar from redistribution than actual work of government.
Very nice!
Far-called, our navies melt away;
On dune and headland sinks the fire:
Lo, all our pomp of yesterday
Is one with Nineveh and Tyre!
Judge of the Nations, spare us yet,
Lest we forget—lest we forget!
Kipling, over 120 years ago, wrote this. We borrow vast amounts to import an under class and buy a good time, but refuse to spend on what we ought to.
I fear we will reap what we have sown in my lifetime, and it will be ugly. There will be War, and it will be ugly.
Kipling was canceled for being an imperialist.
In the UK, Mandalay used to be read on VJ Day. No more.
Not in my house.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!
At that time England ruled one quarter of the world, had the largest navy and was the workshop of and creditor to the world. What could possible have gone wrong? What could possibly go wrong for America today?
See what free trade will get you?
Free trade gets you the UK of Sir Keir Starmer. Manchester and Liverpool are silent.
England rode free trade from Peele’s repeal of the Corn Laws until Churchill. After that they slipped into the despair that always accompanies Mercantilism.
They rode it right into decline and fall. Just like we are doing now.
You look at free trade and see lower prices. I look at free trade and see factories and jobs moving to China leaving behind ghost towns filled with despair. You should visit Bethlehem PA and the tacky casino and outlet center that sits on top of the ruins of one of the greatest companies in American history.
Free trade is nothing more than free enterprise over the oceans. The folks opposed to free trade have a name. Their economic theory is called Mercantilism. It is as rotten and dysfunctional as the other isms. Free trade and free enterprise lead inexorably to the wealth of nations.
Tell that to the impoverished people in our former industrial heartland who lost their jobs to China. Tell them how much better off they are.
The world isn't fair.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaEcGHd1IX8
The problem is that US industry is over-regulated to the point that it's impossible to make most physical things here.
And most of the now impoverished former industrial workers were the ones voting for the politicians supporting said regulations.
Writing of another declining empire.
History doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes.
We are indeed stretched thin - reminds me of life aboard CVN FIRST SHIP when we banged out two combat cruises - and a surprise surge cruise - during a three year JO sea tour. Every day I turn on the news expecting to hear that IKE's headed back out on a "double pump"...
If the "New Management" over in the UK follows through on their political promises and cuts their defense budget, they may be willing to sell the QE or the Prince of Wales. While not immediately CATOBAR capable, they can deploy three squadrons of USMC F-35Bs until the necessary deck modifications occur. I know, no Organic AEW or EW capability, but you have 5th Gen Aircraft in your CBG.
We could probably get them cheap since they are used. Or maybe just lease one.
Beware of used British naval assets. Canada bought four subs from the UK - look how that worked out.
What do you expect from Justin Castreau?
In fairness, they were bought long before his time: 1998, a Liberal government headed by Prime Minister Jean Chrétien
OTOH, the Sirius and her sisters were great ships. Bonus: Their wardroom had a bar!!
There were also bath tubs in the senior officer staterooms.
Interesting. The only US ship so equipped that I know of was Iowa, who was so equipped for FDR.
Just fyi, the last major review of the CVN availability issue conducted on my watch at Fleet Forces showed we needed 16 CVNs and 12 CVWs to sustain 3 CSGs forward deployed (1 each committed to CENTCOM, PACOM AND EUCOM) while also ensuring required operational training and maintenance is fully and properly conducted for the non-deployed CVNs/CVWs.
A properly resourced 16 CVN/12 CVW force (people, munitions, maintenance, etc, etc) also
enables a 4-5 CVN "surge" within 4 months with little notice.
The Single Yard issue complicates things. Only NNS can build a CVN. And duplicating the construction infrastructure there would take years and cost billions.
You could go to a CV design, but again where would you build her? Two yards get you 1 CVN and 1 CV every 4 years which barely replaces retirements of the Nimitz class.
How come Henry Kaiser build so many huge shipyards in so little time?
He wasn’t burdened by what had been. In other words, he didn’t need to fight EPA and OSHA etc..
Nota bene: Groves was able to build Oak Ridge and Happy Valley for the Manhattan Project in 3 years.
Do you need to "fight" EPA? You know what the EPA regs are, so that's just part of the engineering specs, manufacturing specs. If you or contractors allow a culture of trying to bypass or sneak past EPA requirements then don't be surprised when you get caught and you have to start that piece over and your timetable is shot to hell. Don't blame that on the EPA, don't let contractors blame it on EPA. Don't allow contractors to have a culture of sneaking around EPA and other regulations. The EPA is preventing the contractors from poisoning the water, ground, air food and workers so everybody's families aren't poisoned for company profit.
The slowdown is in Congress where we need to educate Congress that world eyes are on Putin in Ukraine, and Xi will be emboldened if we dont stop Putin. China is moving in the Pacific, we need more ships. Diplomacy works when backed up by strength. Teddy Roosevelt's "Speak softly but carry a big stick." America's diplomacy works because America has "Big Stick" military, lots of bases around the world and carrier strike groups cruising by troublesome nations.
All domestic issues combined don't equal the looming threat of China in the Pacific.
Can we afford it? Of course we can. In the early 1950's the corporate tax rate was 90% and it worked well because all re-investment into greater production was exempt. Today many companies and billionaires pay paltry income tax. They should be ashamed. If we properly taxed the ultra wealthy we could pay for an entire carrier and accompanying ships in one year. Plus, Bezos and Gates and Musk each have enough assets to buy an entire carrier group. Each. We as a country decided to not tax them much, so that instead of having money for defense (and domestic costs) we thought it was better for those individuals to have that money. There's money for a second shipbuilding yard.
What's it take?
In the 1950s, spending on social programs was tiny, and defense was considered important. More important than buying votes with "free stuff." And the interest on the national debt then was chump change. Today interest on the debt is damn near what we spend on defense.
Your confiscatory tax rates sound good, but experience has proven that tax revenue increases when tax rates are lower.
We no longer live in the 1950s, for better or worse, probably worse.
Lol. Jibber Jabber. EPA didn’t exist back in WW2. If it did we would have lost.
Ship building, ship repair and ship maintenance all come at a cost. Stop thinking that the Navy is all about poisoning the environment and pissing in its own pool.
Our ships are rusting, our crews can’t maintain them and a major part of the “regulatory” process literally causes CO’s to piss their pants if there is a fuel leak, or oil leak etc.
You haven’t tried to order whiteout from a servmart list I see.
I'd submit that defense dept should have some general waivers about environmental policy, especially if it interferes in a serious way with readiness, combat capability, maintenance, procurement, etc...
I'm not saying "go ahead n dump that used gearbox oil overboard", but for f*** sake, let the sailors in San Diego chip some damn paint!!!
And if we need to dig a 1200 foot long hole for a dry dock, the heck with the 7 years of impact statements. Just let em dig the hole!! We're cutting our own throat when the enviro-nuts are holding the military hostage...
Your comment about corporations and billionaires is demonstrative of your bias.
Why should three people be forced to pay for the national defense of millions? You smell like a socialist.
The top 10% pay 75%+ of all income tax collected. Stop with the class warfare,tax the rich nonsense... they earned their money, leave em alone!!!
"Properly taxed the ultra-wealthy"? What economic degree do you have? Hmmm, wondering if you've ever owned a "small business" and written a 7 figure check to the IRS after a very successful year? It is called "income tax", not "wealth tax" for a reason.
And the issue with the EPA - as the Supreme Court just ruled - is that the EPA rules by unelected staffer whims, and not laws enacted by Congress. The last 30 years is filled with EPA over-reach.
A prime example is California. Taxing the “rich” and giving it to the “poor” isn’t working. People that produce and over taxed leave and the consumers remain until everything is well… consumed. People that produce and corporations that provide jobs should have less tax actually. Fiscal responsibility and integrity is key and productive people should never be made to fix what the government spoils or gives away.
This is a great point.
Contract with ROK?
Fastest laid to launch in NNS 12 was Stennis at exactly 32 months. Rand studies what would be needed to do 24 or 30 month builds. Extending the dock was one of them so 2 can be built in the dock simo. That extension was built and Enterprise and Miller will both be built in the dock simo. I'm for block buys of 3 ships every 8 years (32 month centers). Get to 10 Fords faster. See about establishing 2 carriers in reserve possibly skipping dome RCOH for a new build strategy. See what we can do to stretch reactor refuelings since we already appear to be stretching refuelings to 26 years.
Is there a UNCLAS version of that you are aware of that is accessible open source?
And the required LOGREP capacity as well. We are atrophied.
(yes, this missive is related in a tangential way in the context of carrier viability...)
Adm. Harvey, some years back, you commented that CC Smith was your first skipper on the Enterprise, and as I remember you said quite positive things about him.
He and dad were squadron mates and friends in Heavy Attack. I mentioned your remarks to my mom dad had passed away some years before), and she said that didn't surprise her! She was good friends with his wife.
So, you might say that is some (many may say dubiously apocryphal) objective proof CC was exceptional, and his ascension to 3 stars was definitely deserved. Its a travesty he was taken so young.
Anyway, you may not be aware that he (along with some other stellar Naval Aviators like Pat O'Gara, and Jack Youngblade) saved the Vigilante program. As sexy and beautiful as that aircraft was, it was a programmatic failure. Our porch host often speaks of good people making an otherwise suboptimal platform work, well, those 3 gents were some of the best examples to be had.
At its fleet introduction, the A-5 (A3J), built to be the USN's supersonic nuke attack aircraft for the mission that the carriers' very existence was then predicated upon... Strategic Strike from the Sea.
Only problem was, it didn't work. Its "transformational" linear bomb bay defied all efforts to reliably release a weapons package. Good thing for the USN -and its carriers- Polaris came in as a resounding success, and the carriers could quickly pivot back to a conventional attack posture.
The Vigis were then repurposed as a recce aircraft just as Vietnam spooled up. And they got whacked. So much for that flawed "Speed is Life" mantra. It sure wasn't working for the fastest aircraft in the USN inventory. At the height of the air war, the Cdr Smith skippered RVAH-6.
He was the one who took this first definitive pic of Hoa La prison on that cruise...
https://www.facebook.com/groups/232419373490585/posts/4086208294778321/?paipv=0&eav=AfbNvk6-o93bNBqP6ue_GaXkB9KdWrHlDXypaFuQYiDN88InLoJ5sf0JRBAurfgRmJA&_rdr
He also brought Heavy Six home with no losses. A feat that I don't think was matched by any other Vigi squadron deployed to Vietnam. He and his squadron developed the tactics allowed the RA-5 to be survivable over north Vietnam.
The next year, when COMCARDIV 3 RAdm Gerry Miller forbade the embarked Vigi squadron to fly over North Vietnam, because deemed the aircraft unsurvivable in that environment, Cdr Smith went out to WestPac to get things back on track.
Anyway, given the secretive and closed mouth nature of the RA-5 community, and I thought you may have never heard about all this backstory...
So, how is that tale related to the discussion at hand?
For the first time since 1945, the US carrier force is threatened by a Peer that is specifically charting its destruction (I will argue the Cold War threats were always tempered by the overarching MAD doctrine).
Hopefully, there are some Good People who will be able to step up, and steer things from the decades long employment of the CVN's as unthreatened joint air bases which happen to be at sea, to an effective fighting force that can prevail against the conflicts that are looming.
Thanks very much for taking the time to give me so much of the back-story on VAdm Smith and the Vigilante.
The Big E was my first ship and an incredibly formative experience for me - my LCPO was the finest Chief I ever served with and CC set the standard for how to command a ship.
Thanks again - you've made my day!
Thanks Admiral!
Sid, My dad and your dad may have been shipmates. My dad was an AT1 flight deck trouble shooter in VA97 for the 1973-74 and 75-76 westpacs. I got to say good by to him many times and wait for him come back home to NAS Lemoore. I remember meeting Capt Smith on a family day event on Big E. He was a kind man. The crew loved him and my father spoke well of him.
Actually dad was on his twighlight tour in Pensacola by that time.
(time to bother everyone with another factoid...)
Watching the Blue Angels documentary on Amazon, I was looking at some of the scenes of the skipper being interviewed, I was thinking the interior of the house looked alot like ours.
Lo and behold, there was a shot of a sign showing Quarters 34... We lived in Quarters 35! Those houses were built by the Army in the 1850s for Fort Barrancas btw. There is a house at the Fort at Mackinac Island built to the same basic deign.
That row of houses was called menopause row
when we lived there..
Anyway, they interviewed the skipper's wife on the porch (with a view of our
old house in the
background), then later
there is a good view of 35
as they were trundleing
their kids into the truck.
The porches on those houses are spectacular! So it resonated when our host started speaking of
"The Porch"
Pics taken in the 70s of Qtrs 34 with 35 in the background. When the house was put in the Historical Register.
https://www.loc.gov/item/fl0060/
And reverse view
https://www.loc.gov/item/fl0061/
On another light note...
About The Blues boat yards and yard birds.
Forgot the Blues were coming to town this weekend, and after some blustery days was able to get up the mast to troubleshoot my VHF antenna on the LPTB. (Little Plastic Toy Boat).
Turns out the yard birds tore up the antenna when I brought the LPTB in for layup last fall, and water got into it.
Yards can screw up an anvil if you don't watch
them like a hawk!!!
Same goes for Big Serious Gray Boats.
Got a good view of the practice while up the mast though. And now they're back.
On another note, I would presume you also knew Jim Pirrotte, Ops Officer then.
He was one of the last 1310's who had to spend time as a Bombardier in the A-3's. The NFO program was stood up, and in Sanford, many of the first NFO's were crusty Mustangs...
I have a couple memories of that colorful character.
When I was very small (kindergarten maybe)I heard that Mr. Pirrotte was the purveyor of a "snake ranch". When I asked my parents if we could go see the snakes, they were curiously evasive... I figured things out some years later.
Around the same time, there was a squadron party at our house out in the back yard by the lake. I heard a small plane, and confused about that, saw Mr. Pirrote taxiing up in a float plane. The back seat was loaded with cases of beer.
Thats not impugn his aviating acumen in any way. You can read the Grampaw Pettibone column in this Oct. 67 Navair News to see what Gramps thought.
See the "Waveslapper" entry. In retrospect, his floatplane skills may have helped to save things!
https://www.history.navy.mil/content/dam/nhhc/research/histories/naval-aviation/Naval%20Aviation%20News/1960/pdf/oct67.pdf
There were a very great many colorful characters on the Big E from '74 - '76!
We did not lack for excitement, at sea or in port.
Admiral, you were a shipmate of my fathers during that time. You guys had some fantastic port calls. I still have a boomerang my dad brought back from Tasmania.
Small Navy.
MRT's Haircut, I suspect that my last conscious thoughts will be of the port visit to Hobart!
The party scene in Sanford during the early 60's was healthy for sure!
https://www.a3skywarrior.com/photo-gallery?pgid=lrwbavoy-f398f2ca-6750-4a2f-bd5b-1105f38ef9c9
So the only two Fast Combat Support Ships in the Navy, which have no defenses, might not be able to support 3+ CSGs in combat?
We are in more conflicts than we were when we had 16 carriers and could barely hadle the workload then. We tried to convince the Navy not to down size, but they did, including decommissioning Air Wings. It takes years to build a carrier, and about the same time to build up the Air Wing to go with it, assuming you have the airplanes to man them and personnel to fill them.
Sadly, the Navy seems to worry more about DIE and Pentagon self-licking ice cream cone projects like minimum manning and TQL, rather than warfighting and strategic/tactical planning. Glad I served when I did.
Average to build 10-14 billion. 6 years Keel to JTFEX. Annual operation cost 1% of our GDP.
And what a heartbreak it is to look at then and now.
When you are overextended you withdraw to defensible positions.
Imagine being hit simultaneously in several places at once. It could happen.
You think it’s bad when the DJIA falls due to slumping retails sales or when some company fails to meet expectations? Imagine what would happen if a CVN is sunk.
Or Guam sinks
that keeps me up at night big time!!!
I guess I mean that both as a joke and seriously. For you Navy types, isn't Guam effectively a very slow USAF CV?
ps: another way to look at it from the Navy might be "that big beautiful IRBM Missile magnet"
Understood that to be a joke. Left off the smiley face emoji... I think we can safely assume anything in the first and second island chain are candidates for a lot of ballistic missile love. Lot of tanga tanga on Guam... so I would be thinking really hard about ways of turning Guam into the most densely packed air defense zone in the world.
Give Us American Money.
Sink? Nevah happen, SGT. Not sayin' that was misinformationish...I am chalking that up to a gummy keyboard. Happens to me all the time. RC Cola & pork rinds. I sometimes get whole sentences, even paragraphs ruined. Let's remember that Congressman Johnson (D-GA) said Guam might "tip over". The man never said "sink". Might capsize if a Taylor Swift concert didn't think it wise to employ a loadmaster, though.
The cost of a shooting war is astronomically more expensive than maintaining sufficient forces to deter one.
True. But you’re are not running for election.
Might be time to reconsider the model; maybe approach the problem supercarriers are meant to be solving from a different direction?
Seems overcapitalised to the point of inflexibility. Particularly since they aren't meant to fight alone, in a real fight. Yet will almost always be a solo 'Group' rather than a multi-CVN 'Force'.
And particularly given the average CVW is about 2/3rd the late Cold War average. With no prospect of a meaningful increase.
Can another CVN Ford class be justified, at ~$14B? With all of its design quirks?
Paradigm seems broken at every level. It had a good run. But it seems to have fallen off the cost curve in recent decades.
Peace.
Hear me out: Once again, I plead for more land-based Naval Air. P-8s, C-130s, F-15EX and/or Super Hornets. Some obvious sites: Solomons, Philippines, Gulf States, Greece, Iceland, and Alaska. Relieve the pressure on CBGs in case of wartime.
Then we'll probably want a couple Lightning Carriers, too. Use F-35Bs on them for either strike or CAP; let the Ford or Nimitz they're traveling with have more in the other usage. Or have one of them be the Air support for a MEU, let the Burkes do NGSF for support on land. Just my $0.02.
More aircraft can happen much easier than more ships. That's the pitch. At least until we start building useful combatants for the price of a P-8 or B-21. Might be better for surface navy to have more general patrol value and stop pressing so hard to spend a lot for only a little strike payback.
Average time to construct a Burke is 40 months and a Little Crappy Ship 34 months.
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD1144230.pdf
You are not going to get your LHA lightning carriers built a whole heck of a lot faster that a full size one. This is a problem.
Toss in a healthy dose of mismanagement at the Marine Corps level with 4 and going on 5 years of Divest to Invest and Force Design 2030 and you have a stew of failure brewing. Further, even if we had a fully vetted and robust "seagoing" defense budget, we do not have the free shipyard capability or the skilled workers to the new vessels needed together, and repair the existing fleet. USS Boxer and USS WASP are classic case studies of a fleet that wants to float but cannot. We have nearly a trillion dollar defense budget...where is the money truly going, and more importantly "who's watching the store??"
Our fleet design should take into consideration what our shipbuilding industry can best help build. LSM and OPC sized ships could be produced many places as could any new uses for auxiliary hulls.
The CONOPs of the LSM pretty much presages them being rolled up like a cheap rug in the opening phases of any conflict.
Agreed. Other Sal focused on just this topic today. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wlN_Kq3X9E