I read some place (not sure this sub or, elsewhere), where there's a small number of industrial steel mills remaining in the US that do large heavy projects, and the remaining mills remaining in operation nationally, are principally focused around recycling processing.
And suddenly NO ONE thought that China would attempt to put industrialize the United States and win a war of attrition with old fashioned, “Rosie The Riveter’.
To be sure some of your points are valid. And part of it is self-inflicted.
We failed to modernize and became non-competitive while other countries built new plants and utilized SCADA to reduce manpower. Additionally we ensured trades got a bad rap by labeling them as occupations for people not smart enough to go to college.
The donor class has gotten the government, domestic, and foreign policy it has paid for while also paying to convince the electorate that they deserve it.
I think the trick would be where is it going to slide in? I've also wondered how they deal with depth there in regards to the floating drydocks. I'm guessing they have basins immediately under where they sit?
They apparently got radioactive contamination from one of the early nuke tests, where the navy figured out that you basically can’t effectively decontaminate a ship that has hot sea water dry on it. It’s OK for industrial use, but not so great for little kids.
The ships that survived the OP Crossroads nuke tests, were towed back and studied at HPNSY. Amongst the research was understanding the effects of the initial blast and the various decontamination process needed, which resulted in a lot of material and sandblasting medium being contaminated. Most of those ships were eventually scuttled off shore with a lot of the waste being packed away onboard, unfortunately many of the yard areas contain higher than normal levels of radioactivity. The Navy largely walked way from their HAZMAT site and ultimately paved over the area in thick layer of asphalt to keep the dust & dirt from blowing around. Along with elevated levels of radio activity in certain areas, the surrounding work shops and buildings all contain lead paint and asbestos, not to mention 40-years of neglect and vandalism.
Should a facility re open in SFO, I am sure some protestors will chain themselves to the gates the first time something grey shows up for work and Gavin will be down there declaring a environmental disaster.
Grifting off of ship repair facilities is much less lucrative than grifting off Ukraine and illegal aliens, and there's all that rust and smelly sea water.
"Formerly the headquarters of Union Iron Works and then Bethlehem Steel, the various buildings were developed between 1885 and 1941 and together form(ed) the most intact industrial complex west of the Mississippi."
Can't have those icky blue collar jobs in San Francisco.
One issue is, if they did, where could they afford to live? This is where Japan and Korea have it right. the shipyard needs to be its own town and little world unto itself.
If you want to get really upset then visit the site of the once great Bethlehem Steel in Bethlehem PA. There is a casino and tacky outlet center on the ruins of the company that built armor for battleships.
Some US Defense Contractor needs to step up to the Plate NOW and close a deal on the Facility before some mystical magical Holding Company with concealed ownership acquires the property and just "sits on it' denying any use of the Docks. See "Panama Canal" for Example.
Yep. And also on the sir-no-longer-appearing-in-this-film ship repair side thanks to BRAC, there’s Mare Island.
SF itself is pretty hostile, but the rest of the bay was basically happy to have the jobs. It was the politicians in SF and Sacramento and DC, and their land developer donors, that drove the BRAC decision.
Mare Island is still doing work, nothing like what it was doing prior to closure but, it's two dry-docks, and pier side cranes do a fair amount of service work on USCG and USNS ships. They could use an infusion of capitol to upgrade and modernize though.
There was Todd SY in San Pedro, long closed now, and Vallejo, former Mare Island NSY, at a fraction of what it was, but that was all in a Pre-Clinton World, Unipolar, where the Dollar meant something.
The WWII dry dock, a massive strategic relic, that was in Long Beach, was sold to a South American Buyer, and towed to Equador.
If we can't or don't want to build a dry dock, we can buy our 80 year old dry dock back.
Why all the hue and cry over ship repair? Why not concern from all over $35 trillion debt with interest over $1 trillion per year? Why not concern from Congress or the last 4 CinCs over declining ship numbers and ships that are being decommed with half their useful life left (useful IS a key word therein)? Where is the concern over an org like NAVSEA that once produced the world's best fighting ships and now can't get things to sea like ship that don't rust, don't fail INSURV, don't deploy because they're unsafe, and are outgunned by 4th world banana republics.
All these and many more are 20+ year problems. Finding real estate, navigating the green nude eel on ship repair/chemicals/contaminants/threat to great speckled pygmy trout/having suppliers resurrect plans for reproducing decades old parts/training new workers/and what I called Dirty Feet when I was a MO (Do It Right The First Time) make me cynical that we will ever see a robust, war-ready ship repair capability ever again. As Mr McGuire would say to Ben in today's "The Graduate"- "I want to tell you one word, just one word. Ben, are you listening? DRONES!".
Here is a good pre and post BRAC minute detail on navy dry docks. Its evolved some since the 2001 document but not much. THe big one in Norfolk being extended for bulbous bows for instance.
After: SOB! It looks like they pulled the link from the net? Anyone see the link or have a copy? I guess one can derive it from the first doc. I've got my own spreadsheet on it but I have lots of random notes on it.
Ran into the Coast Guard Facilities along the way:
I read some place (not sure this sub or, elsewhere), where there's a small number of industrial steel mills remaining in the US that do large heavy projects, and the remaining mills remaining in operation nationally, are principally focused around recycling processing.
And suddenly NO ONE thought that China would attempt to put industrialize the United States and win a war of attrition with old fashioned, “Rosie The Riveter’.
To be sure some of your points are valid. And part of it is self-inflicted.
We failed to modernize and became non-competitive while other countries built new plants and utilized SCADA to reduce manpower. Additionally we ensured trades got a bad rap by labeling them as occupations for people not smart enough to go to college.
Time for a reckoning.
The electorate has gotten the government it chose & deserves.
The donor class has gotten the government, domestic, and foreign policy it has paid for while also paying to convince the electorate that they deserve it.
Penny wise and pound foolish. Describes our current society to a t.
On one hand, San Francisco and environs are practically hostile territory to the DoD.
On the other hand, can we move a floating dry-dock down to San Diego for the Navy?
And on the gripping hand, if we were subsidizing ship building and maintenance, we wouldn’t have this problem.
Imagine how it will be when war kicks off?
It’s why I hope it’s a short war, or 1600 Pennsylvania goes all in for a strategic launch.
Well, if we get everything inside the beltway blown up during business hours we might have a chance. Too bad about the Smithsonian.
a rhetorical question?
Very
I think the trick would be where is it going to slide in? I've also wondered how they deal with depth there in regards to the floating drydocks. I'm guessing they have basins immediately under where they sit?
Often, floating dry docks can require additional dredging.
I can't understand why they shut down Hunters Point Naval Shipyard. If I recall correctly wasn't there a shipyard in San Pedro or Long Beach?
Hint = Feinstein and Pelosi
Rich witches. Meanwhile George Santos was expelled from Congress for passing his expense account and stealing credit cards.
I'd imagine Boxer "Call me Senator!" gets some credit as well.
Pretty sure the carrier dock had some contamination issues aside from the politics.
They apparently got radioactive contamination from one of the early nuke tests, where the navy figured out that you basically can’t effectively decontaminate a ship that has hot sea water dry on it. It’s OK for industrial use, but not so great for little kids.
The ships that survived the OP Crossroads nuke tests, were towed back and studied at HPNSY. Amongst the research was understanding the effects of the initial blast and the various decontamination process needed, which resulted in a lot of material and sandblasting medium being contaminated. Most of those ships were eventually scuttled off shore with a lot of the waste being packed away onboard, unfortunately many of the yard areas contain higher than normal levels of radioactivity. The Navy largely walked way from their HAZMAT site and ultimately paved over the area in thick layer of asphalt to keep the dust & dirt from blowing around. Along with elevated levels of radio activity in certain areas, the surrounding work shops and buildings all contain lead paint and asbestos, not to mention 40-years of neglect and vandalism.
Sounds like a severe case of Romney vulture capitalism and Pelosi crony capitalism.
1. Acquire the property and discharge the workers and all obligations.
2. Sell the property to a developer who is in tight with the people who run SF.
Meanwhile the Navy withers away.
Should a facility re open in SFO, I am sure some protestors will chain themselves to the gates the first time something grey shows up for work and Gavin will be down there declaring a environmental disaster.
They're the best protesters the CCP can buy.
I'm sure if a protestor is chained to the gates, they can still be opened with the help of a chainsaw or sledge hammer.
I have always found this to be pretty funny considering. Half a helicopter ride out into the ocean somewhere. Just disappear them. https://youtu.be/MWFuyK6F8eE?si=HBsbLzLjdh19u6Re
Grifting off of ship repair facilities is much less lucrative than grifting off Ukraine and illegal aliens, and there's all that rust and smelly sea water.
Ukraine aid gets approved, 'Bernie’s gold dust' futures go up,🤔.
We won't just sell them the rope to hang us, we will sell them the factories to make the rope so they can hang ALL of us.
And we will finance the factory.
I thought I have an infinite supply of sighs, but surprisingly I’m running low with all this… Sad.
According to the developer?
"Formerly the headquarters of Union Iron Works and then Bethlehem Steel, the various buildings were developed between 1885 and 1941 and together form(ed) the most intact industrial complex west of the Mississippi."
Can't have those icky blue collar jobs in San Francisco.
One issue is, if they did, where could they afford to live? This is where Japan and Korea have it right. the shipyard needs to be its own town and little world unto itself.
Can't have that, the developers would covet the property for gentrification and redevelopment for the more affluent wannabe gentry class.
If you want to get really upset then visit the site of the once great Bethlehem Steel in Bethlehem PA. There is a casino and tacky outlet center on the ruins of the company that built armor for battleships.
You have to blame myopic management and shareholders as well.
If you mean the large hedge funds and investment banks then yes. Don’t confuse them with people who had 100 shares and lost it all.
We practiced feee trade and allowed cheap massive imports. Other countries protected their industries. Guess who is still standing.
As a mutual fund holder I'm aware that the hedge funds and investment banks where I'm a shareholder also make me somewhat culpable.
There is the dilemma. Investors want high returns. Labor costs are lower in China. A smart government would strike a balance.
Some US Defense Contractor needs to step up to the Plate NOW and close a deal on the Facility before some mystical magical Holding Company with concealed ownership acquires the property and just "sits on it' denying any use of the Docks. See "Panama Canal" for Example.
Yep. And also on the sir-no-longer-appearing-in-this-film ship repair side thanks to BRAC, there’s Mare Island.
SF itself is pretty hostile, but the rest of the bay was basically happy to have the jobs. It was the politicians in SF and Sacramento and DC, and their land developer donors, that drove the BRAC decision.
Mare Island is still doing work, nothing like what it was doing prior to closure but, it's two dry-docks, and pier side cranes do a fair amount of service work on USCG and USNS ships. They could use an infusion of capitol to upgrade and modernize though.
There was Todd SY in San Pedro, long closed now, and Vallejo, former Mare Island NSY, at a fraction of what it was, but that was all in a Pre-Clinton World, Unipolar, where the Dollar meant something.
The WWII dry dock, a massive strategic relic, that was in Long Beach, was sold to a South American Buyer, and towed to Equador.
If we can't or don't want to build a dry dock, we can buy our 80 year old dry dock back.
That would epitomize "Build Back Better"
Why all the hue and cry over ship repair? Why not concern from all over $35 trillion debt with interest over $1 trillion per year? Why not concern from Congress or the last 4 CinCs over declining ship numbers and ships that are being decommed with half their useful life left (useful IS a key word therein)? Where is the concern over an org like NAVSEA that once produced the world's best fighting ships and now can't get things to sea like ship that don't rust, don't fail INSURV, don't deploy because they're unsafe, and are outgunned by 4th world banana republics.
All these and many more are 20+ year problems. Finding real estate, navigating the green nude eel on ship repair/chemicals/contaminants/threat to great speckled pygmy trout/having suppliers resurrect plans for reproducing decades old parts/training new workers/and what I called Dirty Feet when I was a MO (Do It Right The First Time) make me cynical that we will ever see a robust, war-ready ship repair capability ever again. As Mr McGuire would say to Ben in today's "The Graduate"- "I want to tell you one word, just one word. Ben, are you listening? DRONES!".
Snarc Off.
where’s fat leonard when ya need him?
He's in San Diego, awaiting sentencing.
Are we sure? I thought he escaped to Venezuela or something..
He did. Interpol arrested him there, he spent some time in jail and he got prisoner swapped.
https://apnews.com/article/fat-leonard-navy-bribery-scandal-venezuela-extradition-57c07f7efdf9e0cbcaad35d04eff3b6e
Quite. Also, hey boss, you have a repeat in that cut and paste that makes it confusing to read.
Here is a good pre and post BRAC minute detail on navy dry docks. Its evolved some since the 2001 document but not much. THe big one in Norfolk being extended for bulbous bows for instance.
Before:
https://chet-aero.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/1029_3.pdf
After: SOB! It looks like they pulled the link from the net? Anyone see the link or have a copy? I guess one can derive it from the first doc. I've got my own spreadsheet on it but I have lots of random notes on it.
Ran into the Coast Guard Facilities along the way:
https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/OCFO/United%20States%20Coast%20Guard%20%28USCG%29%20-%20Coast%20Guard%20Yard%20Dry-dock%20Facilities%20and%20Industrial%20Equipment.pdf