All profits from beating China will accrue to the same corrupt globalists that profited from a corrupt military procurement system. The same corrupt globalists who used our taxes to help China to rise up because they assumed China would be good neoliberals like they are. Furthermore, we can't win due to the massive advantage shore-launched aircraft and missiles have over fleets. We'd have to flatten their industry to make aircraft and missiles, which would obviously result in China doing the same to us with nukes.
There will be no profit for real Americans, only draft notices and increased taxes. Just like Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, WW2, etc. etc. etc.
Dude, lots of red-blooded Americans are deep into meth manufacture and distribution. Don't kid yourself.
The problem with Zorost is the "globalist" talk. I suspect this poster is either a Q-anon wack-a-doodle, or a paid propagandist. Building a strong national defense is not "beating China."
It took me 5 minutes of research to realize Qanon was fake. It should take about the same to realize globalists mostly run the West. Notice how our own national representatives talk about how nations are bad and we need global governance? Or how Trump couldn't even wait till he was in office to announce he was going back on what he said about immigration to give global corporations access to cheap labor that will screw real Americans?
You are changing the goal posts. This thread wasn't about a strong national defense, it 100% was about "beating China."
OP: "I don’t think we can afford to do that [retreat to 2nd or 3rd island chain] without a stand, so … what more can we do today to make that stand [against China]."
I'm all for a strong national defense, starting with booting all non-Americans from our borders. I tend to agree with the Founding Fathers on most things, especially Jefferson: "peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations—entangling alliances with none."
Past nuclear research by Taiwan makes it a "threshold" nuclear state before being pressured to shut it down by the US.
They had a testable device.
The same goes for the Brazilian nuclear program.
Both were done under the military dictatorship of both nations.
I won't be surprised if all nations that have past nuclear weapons programs are taking a second look as a result of the Ukraine war fallout, North Korean(nuclear and ballistic missiles), and Chinese belligerent activities in the South China Sea and Sino-India LAC.
Ukraine is NOT a US problem, we have an open border and the enemies are in the wire, example is NOLA 2025 Ukraine needs to be left to go their own way with out US help.
Yes, and under a treaty by the US which returned those SASS they would not attack RU and dang if in 2014 Ukraine attacked RU citizens who voted to dissolve being Ukraine and join RU.
These blended wing flying body concepts really have some potential. We need to get used to the idea that a military transport can have just 2 engines. 2 of the 777X engines should get us capability similar to a C-5 with a length more like a C-17.
The military probably hate war more than anyone - they fight and die while civilians complain. We don't want war, but we don't want to lose one either. The best way to prevent a war is to prepare to win it. Yes there are problems in procurement and government corruption. I don't care right now if the choice is protecting the US from PRC or losing to them. You talk of profits, yet the profits of any war are outweighed by the death and maiming that tales place. Sounds trite, but at this point I'd say America, love it or leave it.
A corollary, if I might: How good are we at mine counter-measures? One can assume what's good for the goose is good for the gander, and that the PLAN will attempt the same at Pearl, San Diego, and probably the Puget Sound.
LOL..for all my faults fat and dumb are not on the list. Happy? Guilty as charged.
Run from the dragon? Nope. China is falling apart faster than we are. Their corruption, demographics and economic fragility are far worse than the U.S.
The very things Xi has to do in order to not lose his head to the competing powers in his nation are the things that weaken his military's ability to fight.
When weak, appear strong. That is China today. Other than Russia no one wants China's problems. Russia is why China needs to up its nuke game.
I'm not fat I take jardiance and walk my two terriers, I'm not dumb I can still tie my shoes, Run from the dragon LOL surely you jest I can't keep up with my terriers!
The more china collapses the more dangerous they become.
Their ability to fight may look like the US around 1941 but look how 1945 turned out.
Russia want NATO off their borders and Ukraine to die.
Dangerous China? Sure. Going to control Asia in the future? Not a chance. Both Russia and China can destroy and damage a lot of infrastructure(just like we can). But Russia is not going to defeat the U.S. It would be hard pressed to take over one of their smaller neighbors.
China can destroy Taiwan without sending any troops. But to what end? I suspect the Taiwan bluster is about holding China together and resisting civil war. Their version of patriotism. I would not be surprised if Xi, "dies suddenly" in the next two years as a result of his military and civilian purges.
Interesting times. Dangerous times. We should prepare. But we cannot afford hegemony anymore. So offshore balancing, alliances, selling offensive missiles to those countries most at risk become vital. So ideas such as mines, missiles forward, more risk worthy small force packages versus placing expensive carriers at high risk with the false idea of deterrence.
I think that there’s been a lot of R&D going into unmanned vessels but not enough focus on mothership concepts and launch/recovery technology. CDR Salamander’s ideas are spot on.
There was a vessel that got its start here in Portsmouth, NH. It was called “Ghost” it was a catamaran with stealth technology and made upwards of 45 knots maybe greater. It languished next to the road salt piles for several years and then was moved to the Albacore static submarine display. Right after the start of the Ukraine conflict it “disappeared”. One wonders if could have been augmented to unmanned capability. Could it be of additional help in the closer in waters to Taiwan as example, swarms of them? Mine laying capability? Has anyone heard of this vessel and what became of the program? At this stage it is like the scene in Argo where the CIA is briefing the Sec. Of State….”yes sir this is the best bad idea we have…” everything needs to be on the table. We are at lukewarm war with China and Russia…the candle is burning at both ends…not to mention 1000 Isis and Al Qaeda terrorists believed to be here in the lower 48 at present…our adversaries plan and train we talk of everything else but war fighting in the Whitehouse and puzzle palace..
James I wasn’t at all involved other than to see it head out Portsmouth Harbor once and it may have been in the University of New Hampshire quarterly magazine (am a UNH grad class of 1978) it was a very interesting looking vessel and the grapevine said the Navy didn’t like it. I think the guy behind it was also out looking for an A round of funding but could be wrong on that. With the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard across the harbor everyone had a story or theory! It is gone now and it’s like it’s namesake a ghost.
Panel discussion with Mike Turner, CMDE Donohue (Ret), and CDR Wright on WW2 mine operations. Youtube from 6 years ago, A massive 514 views. I'd love to see the metrics on those! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFlkx6VFYPs
Orca is a diesel-electric boat. Sorry CDR, remove the diesel, sacrifice half the payload for more batteries and say goodbye to a reasonable SOA in the name of stealth.
Based on the lessons the PRC is learning from Ukraine where Russia has negated the utility of Excalibur/HIMARS/JDAM and other weapons...down to 10-25% actually reach their target, I don't think I'm betting anything on laying an accurate minefield with Quickstrike ER...much less the wisdom of flying that radar cross section inside 40nm from any port or naval base. Hard pass.
JDAM and Quickstrike-ER are inertial measurement unit guided, GPS-aided. Using the IMU-only mode is probably accurate enough for minelaying. In a former life, I was a B-1B Weapon Systems Officer and I would be willing to do that sort of minelaying mission. Definitely high risk, but keeping the PLANAF bottled-up would be high payoff I should think. However, like you said, airdrop isn't going to give us the density we would need due the lack of platforms so UUV is probably the ultimate solution.
Quick strike is little more than a JDAM. ER only has wings so why such a paltry range. Powered JDAM on the other hand gets you, as stated by Boeing, 300+ nmi range. Depending on delivery platform and escort and feint CONOPS, I think there’s a fair chance a powered quick strike brings aerial delivery back into the game.
I'd like to see some citations. There was interesting stuff about tanks on Twitter. Some folks were arguing "the tank is over." Others were, as you posted, claiming counter-measures were very successful. There were some interesting economic articles about taking out a million dollar tank with a ten thousand dollar missile.
As Twitter became a cesspool, I stopped reading. There was an authenticity about the old Twitter; opinionated folks with facts supporting their opinions. I miss it.
I have no idea what you are talking about. The only difference between "Old Twitter" and "New Twitter" that is signifiant to the average user is that in New Twitter you don't have to worry about having your account taken away because a gaggle of leftists decided to bear false witness against you, and gang report you. It is a freer place and is only a cesspool if you follow the wrong people.
Dude, it sucks now. There was always BS, but real people were posting real things. Your posts were interesting, and the tanker arguments were fun, if you could wade through the acronyms. My favorite was when a rando was arguing with Steven King about the plot of “The Shining.” She told him he “didn’t know what he was talking about.” That and the Three Year Letterman. Now, it is all BS.
It’s not fun anymore, and the stuff the algorithm pushes is terrible. I didn’t delete it, I just stopped reading. Too much garbage. There’s no substitute. Threads is dull; Bluesky is boring. Maybe Reddit, IDK.
I didn’t mean “citations” to claim you’re making stuff up, I meant citations, as a way to find the source material, like the links posted on your old pages.
1. China has an ability to respond to an attack with atomic weapons. As somebody who lives within twenty miles of four prime military targets I would prefer we not invite a retaliatory attack.
2. Wars are fought on the ground for the ground. Do you really thing the US can win an Asian land war? China kicked our ass in 1950.
3. Offensive warfare is immoral and unjust. The only just wars are wars of self-defense or defense of others.
4. Your life is shitter than it should be because a bunch of war mongers sent millions off to die for no good reason. You know why we don't have flying cars? It is because of The Somme.
Do we even have those, or the ability to build the pits for them? We've spend something like the last 30 years trying to rebuild the ability to make nuclear weapons.
Love the “mission” slide from orca. Brings back long distant memories building those slide decks for Large Displacement UUV in its infancy (ca.2002). Agree it’s more than doable, especially with the gains they’ve no doubt made wrt nav, comms, and energy storage. 21”UUVS were never going to scale, mission wise, but launching from a surface ship brings all the deck space you need, good usage! But how do you evade satellites when you’re in theater? It’s not like dragging an anchor for 40 miles to rip undersea cables would go undetected, would it?
I also love the third best option approach, maybe if we can jack up the pentagon and drive a new DOD under it, we could get more of these types of solutions in the water.
Instead of "how" we should be asking "why."
All profits from beating China will accrue to the same corrupt globalists that profited from a corrupt military procurement system. The same corrupt globalists who used our taxes to help China to rise up because they assumed China would be good neoliberals like they are. Furthermore, we can't win due to the massive advantage shore-launched aircraft and missiles have over fleets. We'd have to flatten their industry to make aircraft and missiles, which would obviously result in China doing the same to us with nukes.
There will be no profit for real Americans, only draft notices and increased taxes. Just like Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, WW2, etc. etc. etc.
People who work in the defense industry are Americans.
OK. So?
People who work in crystal meth manufacture and distribution are also Americans.
No, they are migrants, DEI and suspect of enemy influence.
Dude, lots of red-blooded Americans are deep into meth manufacture and distribution. Don't kid yourself.
The problem with Zorost is the "globalist" talk. I suspect this poster is either a Q-anon wack-a-doodle, or a paid propagandist. Building a strong national defense is not "beating China."
It took me 5 minutes of research to realize Qanon was fake. It should take about the same to realize globalists mostly run the West. Notice how our own national representatives talk about how nations are bad and we need global governance? Or how Trump couldn't even wait till he was in office to announce he was going back on what he said about immigration to give global corporations access to cheap labor that will screw real Americans?
You are changing the goal posts. This thread wasn't about a strong national defense, it 100% was about "beating China."
OP: "I don’t think we can afford to do that [retreat to 2nd or 3rd island chain] without a stand, so … what more can we do today to make that stand [against China]."
I'm all for a strong national defense, starting with booting all non-Americans from our borders. I tend to agree with the Founding Fathers on most things, especially Jefferson: "peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations—entangling alliances with none."
Yes but don’t forget we have one thing China doesn’t have…diversity. It’s our strength. It will win us any war. 🤦♂️
And our DEI, CRT, LGBTQPRV military will fight for climate change repair!
Look how well our DEI USSS and FBI did protecting President Trump and defending New Orleans.
I don't suppose we could preposition a few dozen in Taiwan???
Right now, it should be the Taiwanese priority to mine the tar out of their coastal waters.
Whether they're smart and determined to do it or not is up for debate.
Key is how to mine PRC harbors. That’s where we come iin.
Taiwan needs to beg, borrow, steal or make some nukes.
Past nuclear research by Taiwan makes it a "threshold" nuclear state before being pressured to shut it down by the US.
They had a testable device.
The same goes for the Brazilian nuclear program.
Both were done under the military dictatorship of both nations.
I won't be surprised if all nations that have past nuclear weapons programs are taking a second look as a result of the Ukraine war fallout, North Korean(nuclear and ballistic missiles), and Chinese belligerent activities in the South China Sea and Sino-India LAC.
The travesty of Ukraine is that they once were an atomic-armed nation.
Both S Korea and Japan are threshold/virtual nuclear states waiting for some event to convince the public sentiment to go full nuclear.
Ukraine's invasion is a betrayal of the big powers and the UN.
US commitment to the Indo-Pacific region is now being carefully watched by our allies and foes alike.
We can't just pick up and run away like in Afghanistan because our allies have functioning democratic governments.
Its the last stand for democracy.
Ukraine is NOT a US problem, we have an open border and the enemies are in the wire, example is NOLA 2025 Ukraine needs to be left to go their own way with out US help.
But did they really have the means to employ them? Who kept the codes?
That's fixable. If you have physical access to the hardware, codes aren't going to stop you.
Yes they did. The weapons were Soviet and in working condition with TELS.
Yes, and under a treaty by the US which returned those SASS they would not attack RU and dang if in 2014 Ukraine attacked RU citizens who voted to dissolve being Ukraine and join RU.
Ukraine does not need SASS.
I believe then Taiwan has a device that just needs assembly or the part that makes it work covertly under wraps I know I would.
I can't see why Brazil needs one but most likely they have one or more.
They are c-17 transportable. Korea, japan, philipines, guam are all options.
We don't have enough C-17s or any way to build more. Start up a C-17 follow on production line tomorrow
These blended wing flying body concepts really have some potential. We need to get used to the idea that a military transport can have just 2 engines. 2 of the 777X engines should get us capability similar to a C-5 with a length more like a C-17.
The military probably hate war more than anyone - they fight and die while civilians complain. We don't want war, but we don't want to lose one either. The best way to prevent a war is to prepare to win it. Yes there are problems in procurement and government corruption. I don't care right now if the choice is protecting the US from PRC or losing to them. You talk of profits, yet the profits of any war are outweighed by the death and maiming that tales place. Sounds trite, but at this point I'd say America, love it or leave it.
I hate war as only a soldier who has lived it can, only as one who has seen its brutality, its futility, its stupidity.
Dwight D. Eisenhower
Cf. The Somme.
Great idea, CDR!
A corollary, if I might: How good are we at mine counter-measures? One can assume what's good for the goose is good for the gander, and that the PLAN will attempt the same at Pearl, San Diego, and probably the Puget Sound.
and have lots of container ships with Reserve PLAN Skippers who make regular visits
No kidding. If they can drag an anchor in the Baltic, they could unfortunately do a whole lot more.
RoRos are where it gets ugly. Just lower the ramp and start emptying the deck of all those black painted cylinders.
The China bots are active again. You must be on their list. I guess we will all be nuked unless we let China win. Golly...
Unfortunately a lot of people think that way, too fat, dumb and happy to run from the dragon.
LOL..for all my faults fat and dumb are not on the list. Happy? Guilty as charged.
Run from the dragon? Nope. China is falling apart faster than we are. Their corruption, demographics and economic fragility are far worse than the U.S.
The very things Xi has to do in order to not lose his head to the competing powers in his nation are the things that weaken his military's ability to fight.
When weak, appear strong. That is China today. Other than Russia no one wants China's problems. Russia is why China needs to up its nuke game.
I'm not fat I take jardiance and walk my two terriers, I'm not dumb I can still tie my shoes, Run from the dragon LOL surely you jest I can't keep up with my terriers!
The more china collapses the more dangerous they become.
Their ability to fight may look like the US around 1941 but look how 1945 turned out.
Russia want NATO off their borders and Ukraine to die.
Dangerous China? Sure. Going to control Asia in the future? Not a chance. Both Russia and China can destroy and damage a lot of infrastructure(just like we can). But Russia is not going to defeat the U.S. It would be hard pressed to take over one of their smaller neighbors.
China can destroy Taiwan without sending any troops. But to what end? I suspect the Taiwan bluster is about holding China together and resisting civil war. Their version of patriotism. I would not be surprised if Xi, "dies suddenly" in the next two years as a result of his military and civilian purges.
Interesting times. Dangerous times. We should prepare. But we cannot afford hegemony anymore. So offshore balancing, alliances, selling offensive missiles to those countries most at risk become vital. So ideas such as mines, missiles forward, more risk worthy small force packages versus placing expensive carriers at high risk with the false idea of deterrence.
I think that there’s been a lot of R&D going into unmanned vessels but not enough focus on mothership concepts and launch/recovery technology. CDR Salamander’s ideas are spot on.
Xluuv just needs a pier and a crane to launch. It can move via c-17 and then road to pier.
There was a vessel that got its start here in Portsmouth, NH. It was called “Ghost” it was a catamaran with stealth technology and made upwards of 45 knots maybe greater. It languished next to the road salt piles for several years and then was moved to the Albacore static submarine display. Right after the start of the Ukraine conflict it “disappeared”. One wonders if could have been augmented to unmanned capability. Could it be of additional help in the closer in waters to Taiwan as example, swarms of them? Mine laying capability? Has anyone heard of this vessel and what became of the program? At this stage it is like the scene in Argo where the CIA is briefing the Sec. Of State….”yes sir this is the best bad idea we have…” everything needs to be on the table. We are at lukewarm war with China and Russia…the candle is burning at both ends…not to mention 1000 Isis and Al Qaeda terrorists believed to be here in the lower 48 at present…our adversaries plan and train we talk of everything else but war fighting in the Whitehouse and puzzle palace..
It was a small, complicated design. How were you involved with it?
James I wasn’t at all involved other than to see it head out Portsmouth Harbor once and it may have been in the University of New Hampshire quarterly magazine (am a UNH grad class of 1978) it was a very interesting looking vessel and the grapevine said the Navy didn’t like it. I think the guy behind it was also out looking for an A round of funding but could be wrong on that. With the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard across the harbor everyone had a story or theory! It is gone now and it’s like it’s namesake a ghost.
Panel discussion with Mike Turner, CMDE Donohue (Ret), and CDR Wright on WW2 mine operations. Youtube from 6 years ago, A massive 514 views. I'd love to see the metrics on those! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFlkx6VFYPs
"If that cannot work, we need to find other ways to conduct offensive mining of PRC ports and naval bases. "
( Campbell raises hand and waves.....uhmm, Sirs?.......we got this! Modern, fast, rigid hulled, amphibious, stealthy....AIRSHIPS! )
Orca is a diesel-electric boat. Sorry CDR, remove the diesel, sacrifice half the payload for more batteries and say goodbye to a reasonable SOA in the name of stealth.
The payload module is inserted between the subs bow and stern for 85 feet in length.
The Quickstrike ER air-dropped mine can be delivered from 40nm away (https://seapowermagazine.org/navy-orders-quickstrike-extended-range-glide-kits-for-sea-mines/). Still would be sporty but doable.
Based on the lessons the PRC is learning from Ukraine where Russia has negated the utility of Excalibur/HIMARS/JDAM and other weapons...down to 10-25% actually reach their target, I don't think I'm betting anything on laying an accurate minefield with Quickstrike ER...much less the wisdom of flying that radar cross section inside 40nm from any port or naval base. Hard pass.
JDAM and Quickstrike-ER are inertial measurement unit guided, GPS-aided. Using the IMU-only mode is probably accurate enough for minelaying. In a former life, I was a B-1B Weapon Systems Officer and I would be willing to do that sort of minelaying mission. Definitely high risk, but keeping the PLANAF bottled-up would be high payoff I should think. However, like you said, airdrop isn't going to give us the density we would need due the lack of platforms so UUV is probably the ultimate solution.
Makes you wonder how stealthy is a B2, and how stealthy a B21 will be.
How about we deploy them when a Chinese "exercise" gets above a certain size?
We need them ready as soon or sooner than Marine Littoral Regiments.
Quick strike is little more than a JDAM. ER only has wings so why such a paltry range. Powered JDAM on the other hand gets you, as stated by Boeing, 300+ nmi range. Depending on delivery platform and escort and feint CONOPS, I think there’s a fair chance a powered quick strike brings aerial delivery back into the game.
I'd like to see some citations. There was interesting stuff about tanks on Twitter. Some folks were arguing "the tank is over." Others were, as you posted, claiming counter-measures were very successful. There were some interesting economic articles about taking out a million dollar tank with a ten thousand dollar missile.
As Twitter became a cesspool, I stopped reading. There was an authenticity about the old Twitter; opinionated folks with facts supporting their opinions. I miss it.
I have no idea what you are talking about. The only difference between "Old Twitter" and "New Twitter" that is signifiant to the average user is that in New Twitter you don't have to worry about having your account taken away because a gaggle of leftists decided to bear false witness against you, and gang report you. It is a freer place and is only a cesspool if you follow the wrong people.
Dude, it sucks now. There was always BS, but real people were posting real things. Your posts were interesting, and the tanker arguments were fun, if you could wade through the acronyms. My favorite was when a rando was arguing with Steven King about the plot of “The Shining.” She told him he “didn’t know what he was talking about.” That and the Three Year Letterman. Now, it is all BS.
It’s not fun anymore, and the stuff the algorithm pushes is terrible. I didn’t delete it, I just stopped reading. Too much garbage. There’s no substitute. Threads is dull; Bluesky is boring. Maybe Reddit, IDK.
I didn’t mean “citations” to claim you’re making stuff up, I meant citations, as a way to find the source material, like the links posted on your old pages.
"there is a capability gap, but that has narrowed significantly the last decade..."
It has narrowed because of technology stolen or given(sold?) to China, I'm talking about you, Bill Clinton.
Don't forget Joe Biden.
https://redstate.com/jenvanlaar/2023/08/02/blacklisted-chinese-military-manufacturer-acquired-u-s-stealth-technology-cfius-approval-through-relationship-with-hunter-and-joe-biden-n786239
It's easy to say the President screwed up, but, in our system what the President should do is execute the policy the Congress creates.
Congressmen do live in our communities, isn't our fault that they don't create better policies for the President to execute?
There is an assumption that the president isn't a corrupt traitor.
If war is inevitable then why don’t we strike China first?
If we hit them hard enough we might not have to strike again.
1. China has an ability to respond to an attack with atomic weapons. As somebody who lives within twenty miles of four prime military targets I would prefer we not invite a retaliatory attack.
2. Wars are fought on the ground for the ground. Do you really thing the US can win an Asian land war? China kicked our ass in 1950.
3. Offensive warfare is immoral and unjust. The only just wars are wars of self-defense or defense of others.
4. Your life is shitter than it should be because a bunch of war mongers sent millions off to die for no good reason. You know why we don't have flying cars? It is because of The Somme.
Worse come to worse, are we prepared to use low-yield nukes of a several hundred tons of TNT range?
I mean it is not much worse than dropping a MOAB.
An updated version of AIR-2 GENIE might also be a possibility.
I'm just firing on all cylinders for ideas.
Do we even have those, or the ability to build the pits for them? We've spend something like the last 30 years trying to rebuild the ability to make nuclear weapons.
Need plutonium breeder reactors.
I think currently we are just recycling existing pits and polishing them.
I love it!
Love the “mission” slide from orca. Brings back long distant memories building those slide decks for Large Displacement UUV in its infancy (ca.2002). Agree it’s more than doable, especially with the gains they’ve no doubt made wrt nav, comms, and energy storage. 21”UUVS were never going to scale, mission wise, but launching from a surface ship brings all the deck space you need, good usage! But how do you evade satellites when you’re in theater? It’s not like dragging an anchor for 40 miles to rip undersea cables would go undetected, would it?
I also love the third best option approach, maybe if we can jack up the pentagon and drive a new DOD under it, we could get more of these types of solutions in the water.