This is exactly why weapons of war should be built by the sovereign; not by multi-national private corporations.
The commander of a US Naval shipyard is answerable to the President and his chain of command. The director of a private yard is answerable to the shareholder and corporate management. The mission of a military factor is the defense of the nation, not profit.
Sigh, the same old argument. How is it that Elon Musk has been able to survive and make a profit? How was he able to assemble a team to design, develop, build, and successfully fly one of mankind's most outstanding achievements? He would be delighted to share his experience and the process and management tools he uses.
Once, Elon commented that every single part of his rockets can be traced back to a specific individual. That practice ensures pride and accountability in the project.
"hat every single part of his rockets can be traced back to a specific individual."
Yep. And I will bet that ONE responsible person was not just filling a slot for a year or two before moving on to bigger and better assignments and would be fired if that part was not fully functional.
I wore the uniform during the Vietnam War, though Uncle Sam never invited me to SEA. My angst with McNamara was facilitating sending tens of thousands of America's finest to die in a useless war that we should never have been involved in. McNamara's only vision was tunnel vision.
You are correct that the War Department (we should change it back from DOD to the WD) is not a for $$profit organization. That doesn't mean some basic business principles would not benefit the organization. Just as using GAAP instead of the convoluted accounting methods currently in practice by DOD. We need to bring the computer/software systems into the 20th Century, if not the 21st Century. As Pete Hegseth has repeatedly stated- our goal is to focus on improving the lethality of our warfighters. The two goals of efficacy and lethality are not mutually exclusive. Adding transparency and accountability to the system is a win-win for America and our warfighters. Israel probably would not survive if she had to operate under our DOD/MIC System. We may not survive if we continue operating under our DOD/MIC System.
Yeah, I hear things like that from him and think we are going to get our asses handed to us by whoever actually brings the firstest with the mostest. That will be the country with mastery of logistics, just like we had in WWII.
We don’t have anybody who can draft such a provision. We we built warships we had plenty of folks with the knowledge and experience to supervise private yards. We laid those folks off, or let them retire without replacement. Sometimes correlation IS causation. It’s not a coincidence that our shipbuilding crisis began when we castrated ourselves by abandoning 200 years of building US ships in US shipyards.
We delivered one day late to Boeing for lack of a .37 cent bolt. That cost the company $5,000 for not meeting the on-dock date. I'd betchya' there's some seminars available that teach those contracting skills. Boeing certainly knew how to write that contract.
[When] we built warships we had plenty of folks with the knowledge and experience to supervise private yards.
Oh Lord Tom! The engineering and architectural expertise was historically in the Bureaus..and eventually at NAVSEA...which then discarded the entire cadre. NOT solely resident at the Naval Yards!!!!
Functions: Supervised the design, construction, conversion, procurement, maintenance, and repair of ships and other craft for the U.S. Navy. Managed shipyards, repair facilities, laboratories, and shore stations. Developed specifications for fuels and lubricants. Conducted salvage operations. After 1947, purchased ships for the Departments of the Army and the Air Force, coordinated Department of Defense (DOD) shipbuilding activities, and coordinated navy repair and conversion programs with other federal agencies.
Your entire thought line here is a figment of your -wrong- preconceptions!!
PLEASE!...Read these books before you continue down your erroneous rabbit hole:
Looks like alot of the Battleships book is here. The Introduction is this volume, and the one in the US Cruisers are great reads about the who and how USN ships have been designed and built int he modern era...
A BIG if. Unfortunately, none of the right people, with the right documentation attend the Award Fee conference where the contractor reaps the rewards for “meeting milestones” they consistently fail to meet.
CDR Sal, you accurately state the problem: If war is to come west of the international date line, it will predominately be a maritime and aerospace fight... Effectively modernizing ships is critical since the United States cannot build enough ships to increase the size of the fleet while also divesting ships before the end of their service lives... We no longer have the luxury of time.
Question: Does senior leadership (DoD, Congress, Military Industrial Complex (MIC) TM) see this as a problem? Or are they akshually content with the current state of the system and see no need to change? I'm betting on the latter, and changing the individuals (firing?), personnel system (GS overhaul) and culture (first two required to begin shift in attitudes / priorities of workforce) will rival the Augean stables in effort and odor.
I seem to have misplaced my reading glasses, Joseph, but I think we have had a strong hand these past 4 years that can queer a ship the way it needs to be queered. Sorry, I don't get your point.
Two thoughts: We understand how to fix passive-aggressive. That's included in the boot camp model of character adjustment. But this: "decreased the number of inspection checkpoints"...well, we used to understand that "you get what you inspect, not what you expect."
The “rest of the story” is the lingering impact on the crews assigned to the CG MOD ships over the years. They bore the brunt of underfunded maintenance, poor oversight, all while tied to many of the watch requirements of a “commissioned” warship for extended periods, including standing duty etc. An entire generation of officers and enlisted was handed a real mess to live with - and clean up.
This. Millions of dollars for renaming a cruiser but not one more drop for maintenance.
You want to know what;s really sad - the USS Mercer (WW2 APL-39) is on the auction block in Japan. The auction closes today and the reserve bid has not yet been met. The pictures of her exterior (and even some of her interior) look better than some of the rusty drips we see on DVIDS. https://www.gsaauctions.gov/auctions/preview/307208
On the CG MOD program, I never met anyone who thought it was a good idea. It’s a sign of an organization where voices of dissent are sidelined or silenced. Easier to go along and get along.
I think Sicinnus was referring to the total cost of removing all the CSA names and monuments from all the ships, bases, cemeteries, etc. A sad day when we fail to honor Robert E. Lee.
Wars are fabulously expensive. A weak military encourages aggression by our opponents. A strong military that deters aggression saves money in the long run, not to mention lives.
And since we’re taking about cruisers…is anyone as surprised as I am, how quickly the shootdown of one and near shootdown of a 2nd Hornet by Gettysburg has dropped off the scope?
Careful, Pete. The other Pete, the former Mayor and Navy Officer who breastfed his adopted child must be accorded some slack. So the trains run a little late? So what? Sure, it may qualify as "worse" but that is an order of magnitude away from "worst", I think. It takes a village, you know. Let me suggest that in cutting slack, a sharpened cutlass works best. Just sayin'. ☺
This seems like an appropriate time to implement an old Soviet policy: the vertical chop. Find and dismiss the people who did this, and everyone above them who should have exercised oversight.
The vertical chop. Brutal. I was "given" the job as DIVO for EW Class "A" School as an LDO O-2E after a line LT twice had secret burn bags end up in the dumpster. I was told by the Commander I worked for to go in there and lop heads off if I needed to, implying that the vertical chop was a'commin' next time around, implying that I'd still be working for him at our crappy new duty station if "I" failed. I didn't need the pep talk. But I did do a version of the vertical chop with my instructors after beating them up with the gospel of OPNAVINST 5510.1. The solution was simple. Use plastic bags for trash, paper burn bags for classified material, label the bags, teach the students the difference and supervise them at the end-of-the-day clean up. On day 2 I publicly crushed an E-6 for not doing what I told the entire staff to do. The problem went away. But not all brutality has to end badly. That E-6's wife excoriated me at a division picnic for "trashing her husband". Didn't bother me a bit. Several years later, I was a student of that E-6 at the Intel Officer school at Dam Neck. He recognized me. He was having a problem with two Submariner Ensigns behaving badly in class and I set that straight for him. While there, he received word that he was on the Chief's list for promotion, albeit a bit later than the norm for an EW. I congratulated him, and he told me he held no grudge. He retired an E-8. That LT I had relived failed to promote later and was bounced. Too bad, she was otherwise a very nice lady. You want good results? U ax enny BM2 LPO or GySgt how it's done.
"When was the last time a Navy admiral or SES was held accountable for a botched program?"
1991. The blood at NAVAIR was knee-deep over the A-12 fiasco. And the entire Naval Aviation community paid for it over the next decade or more - tight budgets, scant opportunities above squadron command.
I ask again, what kind of sensors and weapons can we mount on the Multi-Mission National Security Ships being made for the Maritime Academies, and how fast can Philly produce them.
….not comforting when one considers the pace of Chinese building warships, coupled with our ability to maintain our presence, positively, in the Western Pacific. What the hell? Do we have - again - the 1930s battle between the blindered “Battleship Admirals”, and the young carrier jocks and their aircraft carriers? We certainly don’t have a former Assistant Secretery of The Navy for POTUS today, as we did then. Or the labor force to man labor-intensive ships, now outmoded. Maybe they should re-name U.S.S. Gerald Ford the U.S.S. Mission Creep, or U.S.S. Narcissus, or U.S.S. Happy Warrior. ?
Tell me, that our present Cruiser, U.S.S. Cowpens, is nicknamed Mighty Moo.
My “Award Fee conference attendance” point exactly.
Been to several and it seems an OPTIONAL event for everyone with a voice and who should have the data to prove the contractor failed to meet their own deadlines. Without documented proof from ship’s force and/or the lead PE, the contractor just says “show me” where that is in writing and the CO of the RMC/COR (who is juggling 5-6 overhauls and not at any one on a daily basis) has no choice but to award the entire award fee to a yard that underperformed at every step… a bonus for failure. They know they are going to get the entire fee (typically mid 6 figures) no matter what so why bother trying to meet the milestones? We’re rewarding failure and the contractor knows it.
Until you stop this type of behavior and start hitting them in the pocketbook how can you expect change?
The object of funding shipyard work is profit!
Profitable shipyards, or aircraft assembly plants are no guarantee of.....
Minimize inspections they hinder profit.
This is exactly why weapons of war should be built by the sovereign; not by multi-national private corporations.
The commander of a US Naval shipyard is answerable to the President and his chain of command. The director of a private yard is answerable to the shareholder and corporate management. The mission of a military factor is the defense of the nation, not profit.
Build sufficient performance penalties into the contract and you can reshape the shareholders perception of quality.
Sigh, the same old argument. How is it that Elon Musk has been able to survive and make a profit? How was he able to assemble a team to design, develop, build, and successfully fly one of mankind's most outstanding achievements? He would be delighted to share his experience and the process and management tools he uses.
Once, Elon commented that every single part of his rockets can be traced back to a specific individual. That practice ensures pride and accountability in the project.
Every part, and every inspection requirement as well
Thanks for the clarification.
"hat every single part of his rockets can be traced back to a specific individual."
Yep. And I will bet that ONE responsible person was not just filling a slot for a year or two before moving on to bigger and better assignments and would be fired if that part was not fully functional.
Maybe because I am old enough to remember McNamara and his Whiz Kids, but I'm a bit leery of going full civilian business practices for DOD.
Some sure, but the calculus...MUST...consider what it takes to win wars, and not produce widgets profitably.
I wore the uniform during the Vietnam War, though Uncle Sam never invited me to SEA. My angst with McNamara was facilitating sending tens of thousands of America's finest to die in a useless war that we should never have been involved in. McNamara's only vision was tunnel vision.
You are correct that the War Department (we should change it back from DOD to the WD) is not a for $$profit organization. That doesn't mean some basic business principles would not benefit the organization. Just as using GAAP instead of the convoluted accounting methods currently in practice by DOD. We need to bring the computer/software systems into the 20th Century, if not the 21st Century. As Pete Hegseth has repeatedly stated- our goal is to focus on improving the lethality of our warfighters. The two goals of efficacy and lethality are not mutually exclusive. Adding transparency and accountability to the system is a win-win for America and our warfighters. Israel probably would not survive if she had to operate under our DOD/MIC System. We may not survive if we continue operating under our DOD/MIC System.
Yeah, I hear things like that from him and think we are going to get our asses handed to us by whoever actually brings the firstest with the mostest. That will be the country with mastery of logistics, just like we had in WWII.
We don’t have anybody who can draft such a provision. We we built warships we had plenty of folks with the knowledge and experience to supervise private yards. We laid those folks off, or let them retire without replacement. Sometimes correlation IS causation. It’s not a coincidence that our shipbuilding crisis began when we castrated ourselves by abandoning 200 years of building US ships in US shipyards.
We delivered one day late to Boeing for lack of a .37 cent bolt. That cost the company $5,000 for not meeting the on-dock date. I'd betchya' there's some seminars available that teach those contracting skills. Boeing certainly knew how to write that contract.
[When] we built warships we had plenty of folks with the knowledge and experience to supervise private yards.
Oh Lord Tom! The engineering and architectural expertise was historically in the Bureaus..and eventually at NAVSEA...which then discarded the entire cadre. NOT solely resident at the Naval Yards!!!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Ships
https://www.archives.gov/research/guide-fed-records/groups/019.html
Functions: Supervised the design, construction, conversion, procurement, maintenance, and repair of ships and other craft for the U.S. Navy. Managed shipyards, repair facilities, laboratories, and shore stations. Developed specifications for fuels and lubricants. Conducted salvage operations. After 1947, purchased ships for the Departments of the Army and the Air Force, coordinated Department of Defense (DOD) shipbuilding activities, and coordinated navy repair and conversion programs with other federal agencies.
Your entire thought line here is a figment of your -wrong- preconceptions!!
PLEASE!...Read these books before you continue down your erroneous rabbit hole:
https://books.google.com/books/about/U_S_Battleships.html?id=Y41Ha_3HsrYC
Looks like alot of the Battleships book is here. The Introduction is this volume, and the one in the US Cruisers are great reads about the who and how USN ships have been designed and built int he modern era...
(start at page 20 here)
https://www.scribd.com/document/499349941/Naval-Institute-Press-U-S-Battleships-An-Illustrated-Design-History-Norman-Friedman
https://books.google.com/books/about/U_S_Aircraft_Carriers.html?id=-UT7MDTeKj8C
https://books.google.com/books/about/U_S_Cruisers.html?id=My1UAAAAMAAJ
https://books.google.com/books?id=Tzp58htKLkEC
https://books.google.com/books/about/U_S_Submarines_Through_1945.html?id=7qztw0sO2NgC
https://books.google.com/books/about/U_S_Submarines_Since_1945.html?id=OJLiSJ1w6IYC
"It’s not a coincidence that our shipbuilding crisis began when we castrated ourselves by abandoning 200 years of building US ships in US shipyards."
You think the Navy yards are, The Answer! ??
Think again...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSt9Zpm6xMc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLahadFN_Hs&t=52s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNkU4Ik4fuo&t=68s
This shows the depth of Shipbuilding prowess that exists at the navy yards...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pm3-kxs7E-o
Finally, turning away from cartoon land...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txMHFWOtkYY
God help us.
A BIG if. Unfortunately, none of the right people, with the right documentation attend the Award Fee conference where the contractor reaps the rewards for “meeting milestones” they consistently fail to meet.
Inspections donʻt necessarily add quality but they do add time and money. Government shipyards or aircraft assembly plants are no guarantee either.
CDR Sal, you accurately state the problem: If war is to come west of the international date line, it will predominately be a maritime and aerospace fight... Effectively modernizing ships is critical since the United States cannot build enough ships to increase the size of the fleet while also divesting ships before the end of their service lives... We no longer have the luxury of time.
Question: Does senior leadership (DoD, Congress, Military Industrial Complex (MIC) TM) see this as a problem? Or are they akshually content with the current state of the system and see no need to change? I'm betting on the latter, and changing the individuals (firing?), personnel system (GS overhaul) and culture (first two required to begin shift in attitudes / priorities of workforce) will rival the Augean stables in effort and odor.
Our congress is schizo. The Democrats just want to abort babies and trans your kids, so that's where they want the money to go.
The Republicans can only say, "Whoa democrats, not so fast," while not trying to spend money.
The Navy is confused as they follow the democrat's wishes and let trans sailors dance on poles and court the rainbow brigade.
We need a strong hand that can steer the ship the way it needs to be steered.
I seem to have misplaced my reading glasses, Joseph, but I think we have had a strong hand these past 4 years that can queer a ship the way it needs to be queered. Sorry, I don't get your point.
" if war is to come west of the international date line'
(ahem)
"when war comes"
Two thoughts: We understand how to fix passive-aggressive. That's included in the boot camp model of character adjustment. But this: "decreased the number of inspection checkpoints"...well, we used to understand that "you get what you inspect, not what you expect."
Time to return to fundamentals.
The “rest of the story” is the lingering impact on the crews assigned to the CG MOD ships over the years. They bore the brunt of underfunded maintenance, poor oversight, all while tied to many of the watch requirements of a “commissioned” warship for extended periods, including standing duty etc. An entire generation of officers and enlisted was handed a real mess to live with - and clean up.
This. Millions of dollars for renaming a cruiser but not one more drop for maintenance.
You want to know what;s really sad - the USS Mercer (WW2 APL-39) is on the auction block in Japan. The auction closes today and the reserve bid has not yet been met. The pictures of her exterior (and even some of her interior) look better than some of the rusty drips we see on DVIDS. https://www.gsaauctions.gov/auctions/preview/307208
Actually the cost of renaming USS Robert Smalls (CG 62) around $250K.
Don’t let facts get in the way of a rant.
Normally I don’t!
Sorry, sarcasm rarely works in print.
oh no... just turn the "snark" dial well up into the red zone and you'll be good to go!!!!
Happy to be wrong! I just took the $60M figure from the last paragraph here and divided by 9 army bases and 1 ship. https://taskandpurpose.com/news/navy-renames-uss-chancellorsville-robert-smalls/
No worries! Ships just need a can of black paint!
On the CG MOD program, I never met anyone who thought it was a good idea. It’s a sign of an organization where voices of dissent are sidelined or silenced. Easier to go along and get along.
I hope Trump restores the original name of that ship.
Based on the attached story, including a quote from my shipmate, the CO at the time, I think the crew would disagree: https://www.npr.org/2023/04/12/1165998167/a-navy-ship-named-for-a-confederate-victory-now-honors-a-black-union-hero
To say otherwise would be to criticize those in charge and that would not be a good idea.
BTW, I have nothing against naming something after Smalls. I object to erasing the CSA. That's something I expect from the Communists and Taliban.
Concur. Name a frigate after Smalls - that would be appropriate.
I think Sicinnus was referring to the total cost of removing all the CSA names and monuments from all the ships, bases, cemeteries, etc. A sad day when we fail to honor Robert E. Lee.
To say nothing of the loss/atrophy of the seagoing skills of all of them…some of whom spent their entire tour on CG Mod ships.
It surely doesn't help that the NAVSEA manuals read like jargon-laden gobbledygook.
Mission focus was lost a long time ago
There's the right way, the wrong way, and the Navy way...
Wars are fabulously expensive. A weak military encourages aggression by our opponents. A strong military that deters aggression saves money in the long run, not to mention lives.
Something that needs to be learned every 80 years or so at best.
Wars are expensive... especially if you lose one.
And since we’re taking about cruisers…is anyone as surprised as I am, how quickly the shootdown of one and near shootdown of a 2nd Hornet by Gettysburg has dropped off the scope?
what was more embarrassing, the shots, or the miss?
Two missiles at a slow, non-maneuvering target. Two misses. Inquiring minds want to know.
When I initially joked about sitting plane guard and poaching them on final, I didn't think it could have been close to the truth.
Ward Carroll just posted an AI reading of the recovered pilot's text messages. Its good stuff.
How can we not know who is responsible for shoddy work or cost overruns?
Are there no flag or SES program managers or contracting officers?
When was the last time a Navy admiral or SES was held accountable for a botched program?
Worse, they probably got a Legion of Merit or a Navy Superior Civilian Service Award upon their way to do another good deed.
Accepting gifts from Fat Leonard might - I say might - get you into trouble, but squandering billions of dollars seems to be no big deal.
What are they teaching at ICAF - I mean the Eisenhower School - these days?
What, Pete? Snitches get stitches. Nobody likes a rat. The finger could just as easily get pointed at you, Bucko. Capishe?
I didn't realize we live in East Berlin.
I dunno, Pete, kinda looks more like East Berlin combined with a scene out Cabaret in Weimar Germany to me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-72JzwoMMA
Worse, not only do the trains not run on time, but Mayor Pete says three derailments per day is the norm.
Careful, Pete. The other Pete, the former Mayor and Navy Officer who breastfed his adopted child must be accorded some slack. So the trains run a little late? So what? Sure, it may qualify as "worse" but that is an order of magnitude away from "worst", I think. It takes a village, you know. Let me suggest that in cutting slack, a sharpened cutlass works best. Just sayin'. ☺
Was that the latest Navy recruiting ad?
I don't know, Pete. I wear welders goggles when I watch YouTube videos.
This seems like an appropriate time to implement an old Soviet policy: the vertical chop. Find and dismiss the people who did this, and everyone above them who should have exercised oversight.
The vertical chop. Brutal. I was "given" the job as DIVO for EW Class "A" School as an LDO O-2E after a line LT twice had secret burn bags end up in the dumpster. I was told by the Commander I worked for to go in there and lop heads off if I needed to, implying that the vertical chop was a'commin' next time around, implying that I'd still be working for him at our crappy new duty station if "I" failed. I didn't need the pep talk. But I did do a version of the vertical chop with my instructors after beating them up with the gospel of OPNAVINST 5510.1. The solution was simple. Use plastic bags for trash, paper burn bags for classified material, label the bags, teach the students the difference and supervise them at the end-of-the-day clean up. On day 2 I publicly crushed an E-6 for not doing what I told the entire staff to do. The problem went away. But not all brutality has to end badly. That E-6's wife excoriated me at a division picnic for "trashing her husband". Didn't bother me a bit. Several years later, I was a student of that E-6 at the Intel Officer school at Dam Neck. He recognized me. He was having a problem with two Submariner Ensigns behaving badly in class and I set that straight for him. While there, he received word that he was on the Chief's list for promotion, albeit a bit later than the norm for an EW. I congratulated him, and he told me he held no grudge. He retired an E-8. That LT I had relived failed to promote later and was bounced. Too bad, she was otherwise a very nice lady. You want good results? U ax enny BM2 LPO or GySgt how it's done.
I would think we could carefully look for illegal orders, who issued them, and who followd them.
"When was the last time a Navy admiral or SES was held accountable for a botched program?"
1991. The blood at NAVAIR was knee-deep over the A-12 fiasco. And the entire Naval Aviation community paid for it over the next decade or more - tight budgets, scant opportunities above squadron command.
I thought it was Tailhook that cost people jobs; didn't know there was a valid reason as well.
I ask again, what kind of sensors and weapons can we mount on the Multi-Mission National Security Ships being made for the Maritime Academies, and how fast can Philly produce them.
For what purpose?
Patrol, "presence", and extra missiles under control of any nearby Aegis hull.
Way too much ship for that. Manned OUSV/MUSV would accomplish what you describe.
None.
Those ships are owned by the DOT and are built for training purposes to satisfy STCW requirements.
This has discouraging echos of Boeing .
Good info Sal, but who is paying attention? Anybody?????
The PLAN are, I'd bet
….not comforting when one considers the pace of Chinese building warships, coupled with our ability to maintain our presence, positively, in the Western Pacific. What the hell? Do we have - again - the 1930s battle between the blindered “Battleship Admirals”, and the young carrier jocks and their aircraft carriers? We certainly don’t have a former Assistant Secretery of The Navy for POTUS today, as we did then. Or the labor force to man labor-intensive ships, now outmoded. Maybe they should re-name U.S.S. Gerald Ford the U.S.S. Mission Creep, or U.S.S. Narcissus, or U.S.S. Happy Warrior. ?
Tell me, that our present Cruiser, U.S.S. Cowpens, is nicknamed Mighty Moo.
Failure to enforce CLIN with progress gates, penalties and withholding of payments is a great strategy. Perhaps DoD should rediscover it.
My “Award Fee conference attendance” point exactly.
Been to several and it seems an OPTIONAL event for everyone with a voice and who should have the data to prove the contractor failed to meet their own deadlines. Without documented proof from ship’s force and/or the lead PE, the contractor just says “show me” where that is in writing and the CO of the RMC/COR (who is juggling 5-6 overhauls and not at any one on a daily basis) has no choice but to award the entire award fee to a yard that underperformed at every step… a bonus for failure. They know they are going to get the entire fee (typically mid 6 figures) no matter what so why bother trying to meet the milestones? We’re rewarding failure and the contractor knows it.
Until you stop this type of behavior and start hitting them in the pocketbook how can you expect change?