The situation really is critical if everyone believes what Navy leadership says about China. The Army is experiencing a lot of the same issues as the Navy in procurement. The lack of accountability is disgusting.
These CNOs did well for the most part. Clark Raytheon. Mullen GM. Roughead Theranos (can’t win em all). Greenert BAE. Richardson Boeing (oh well). Gilday ??? I wonder where the current CNO will utilize her degree in journalism after she retires.
Maybe share some accountability with the program executives and the ASN RDA to whom they report.
Yes the CNO and OPNAV are the echelon 1, and own the preponderance of PIM performance, but the reality of how our C2 and incentive structures are established cannot be ignored when conducting forensics in acquisition foibles.
Our industrial base was shipped overseas, especially our drydocks and other equipment. The Clinton administration closed all of our government-owned shipyards and now we don't have the infrastructure to gear up and put more hulls in the water. They sold everything that wasn't bolted down, catering to NIMBYs who hate icky industrial plants and shipyards.
Key trades atrophied as there was no work and no prospects and our ruling class prioritized getting a ruinously wasteful college degree funded by student loans at the expense of the trades.
I'm nominally right-wing or whatever you want to call it, but trying to compete against state-funded shipyards in other countries with purely commercial works beholden to stockholders isn't working. We need a massive investment in our shipyards and industrial base.
That's not to mention what we are trying to build is total crap. The Littoral "Combat" Ship is the biggest embarrassment in procurement, up there with the Sergeant York DIVADS disaster when the stupid radar on that AAA vehicle locked up on the fan in a crapper during testing. That high-speed empty hull couldn't fight its way out of a wet paper bag, if it isn't dockside getting repaired by tech-reps since the crew complement is smaller than the IQ of most of Congress.
We get a nice foreign frigate design that works well, the FREMM, and what do we do with it? We completely redesign it, going from 85% commonality to 15%. Why bother using the original design anyhow and just go clean sheet in that instance? I get that we need to have our weapons, sensors and combat systems, but do we need to completely redesign the wheel there when the Chinese are outbuilding us 10-1?
We're a deeply divided country among partisan and ethnic lines that can't agree on anything. Our ruling class encourages perversion and anti-white bigotry at every turn while spending our great-grandchildren into the poorhouse to provide Israel and Ukraine with billions in borrowed money to fight wars we don't need to be involved in.
China's population might be getting older, but they can at least put hulls in the water and crews on those ships. We're too busy training our sailors in diversity garbage and what pronouns to use to worry about preparing them for battle or heck, navigating ships without collisions.
If we had to fight a major war, we'd lose. We'd lose BADLY. I don't want to say that, but it's the truth. I'm one of those veterans who actively encourage young people NOT to join the service. If diversity and sexual deviants is what our ruling class want in the military, let them fight and die in these pointless wars to enrich the plutocrats.
Sal…”a middling retired USN CDR and his band of merry friends” continue to ring the alarm bell but Congress and the people appear to be tone deaf. Sir, you undersell yourself as the herald of Naval hypocrisy, doublespeak and doom amongst our leadership. The more this old Marine reads, the more I’m falling into your ranks when muster is sounded. When I see what the Navy is doing with readiness and shipbuilding and our beloved Corps is doing with FD2030 and our so-called amphibious Navy…you cannot avoid asking the tough questions.
To tie a bow on your comments today, there’s this from today’s Early Bird: “US Navy ship programs face years-long delays amid labor, supply woes.” Like that’s news…
Meanwhile, let’s keep painting drone kills on the sides of aircraft in the Red Sea and thinking we are warfighters. Years of apathy and complacency on full display. Our adversaries should be licking their chops.
Carry on, Sir! I’ll continue yelling at the kids to get off the grass.
You asked "why" CDR, but you gave the answer...and it can be the only answer that makes sense:
"From the lazy to the greedy, too many are vested in the inertia of the present system, and the ease of position and profit that comes with it."
We were building ships as employment programs, not to meet needs, with the vested interests of Congress Critters around the ships being built in their constituency.
It is, I believe, inarguable that we know HOW to build ships and what we NEED to build, along with how many. That we haven't is a testimony to building ships in a non-warfare environment with our eyes on never being challenged at sea because nobody could or would build a navy to challenge us. Then...China.
But it really all falls apart on 1) competition to build those ships to spec leads to arcane contractual language that the contractors use to get additional money for things they say weren't covered in the language (and probably weren't) at the low cost they put in their RFP response...hence the majority of the program delays and 2) the competition over budget between competing programs, competing service branches, and competing Congress critters...all eliciting compromises on budget, programs, etc. that lead to mediocre results.
Of course, more money for defense solves those problems but one party demands that, if we increase defense spending, we have to increase spending on social programs, rather than just doing what is necessary to build ships, planes, missiles, tanks, etc. that we need. I assume we all know what the percentage of spending on defense looks like now as part of the budget vs history? If not, go to the following link: https://www.defense.gov/Multimedia/Photos/igphoto/2002099941/
I know many on this forum are students of history. This institutional rot and mismanagement reminds me much of the French Airforce in the mid 1930's... French politicians
without prudence or sound policy. Aviation plants delivering fighters with no gunsights or even propellers. Attempts to even build a "universal" airplane for all French services...and you thought the F35 was a new concept... 8-) 1940 was a year of grim consiquence..
We who love our country find this situation now infuriating and scary.
As an Army veteran it is a bittersweet comfort to see that my branch isn't the only one flailing about. War would probably fix this problem, but I don't think I am alone in believing that cost may be far too high.
EDO culture of "stick close to your desk and never go to sea" combined with the NAVSEA motto of 'mediocre is the goal and failure is the threshold,' makes one wonder if there's any hope of a good decision or product. The uniformed folks at the system commands should all be line officers and professional civilians for continuity. Having design and capability decisions driven by officers with little to no at-sea experience, appearing to function as little more than than costumed civilians, with no clue of warfare, operational needs, or survivability is a travesty.
While reading the USNI News, I came upon a very interesting fact dealing with our new frigate. "While the design was based on a long-serving warship, design agent Gibbs & Cox heavily modified the FREMM design to meet NAVSEA requirements, like tougher survivability standards than those of European navies, Navy officials have told USNI News. At one point the Constellation design shared about 85 percent commonality with the original FREMM design, but the alterations have brought that commonality down to under 15 percent, a person familiar with the changes told USNI News." (USNI News: By Mallory Shelbourne and Sam Lagrone April 2, 2024 5:11 PM - Updated: APRIL 2, 2024 8:19 PM)
I have read repeatedly that it is the lack of workers and supply chain issues that are delaying so many ship building programs. After reading this article, I think there are some other reasons why launching of this vessel will be three years behind schedule. Just the humble opinion of an old hermit.
Clark crushed the Syscoms with huge personnel reductions. While we were screwing around with "Spiral Development " which got us exactly what we knew it would. More wasted money for marginal platforms. Every time we start an acquisition and don't know what we really want, it will go sideways. This is not a new revelation but a lesson we fail to learn
The situation really is critical if everyone believes what Navy leadership says about China. The Army is experiencing a lot of the same issues as the Navy in procurement. The lack of accountability is disgusting.
So, other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, did you enjoy the play? Seriously, tough but fair heads up for the next decade
These CNOs did well for the most part. Clark Raytheon. Mullen GM. Roughead Theranos (can’t win em all). Greenert BAE. Richardson Boeing (oh well). Gilday ??? I wonder where the current CNO will utilize her degree in journalism after she retires.
Its sad when you start to yearn for a Stalin-esque house cleaning down at your favorite service branch...
Lie. Rinse. Repeat.
A man that lies to himself in a mirror will lie to anyone.
Maybe share some accountability with the program executives and the ASN RDA to whom they report.
Yes the CNO and OPNAV are the echelon 1, and own the preponderance of PIM performance, but the reality of how our C2 and incentive structures are established cannot be ignored when conducting forensics in acquisition foibles.
Our industrial base was shipped overseas, especially our drydocks and other equipment. The Clinton administration closed all of our government-owned shipyards and now we don't have the infrastructure to gear up and put more hulls in the water. They sold everything that wasn't bolted down, catering to NIMBYs who hate icky industrial plants and shipyards.
Key trades atrophied as there was no work and no prospects and our ruling class prioritized getting a ruinously wasteful college degree funded by student loans at the expense of the trades.
I'm nominally right-wing or whatever you want to call it, but trying to compete against state-funded shipyards in other countries with purely commercial works beholden to stockholders isn't working. We need a massive investment in our shipyards and industrial base.
That's not to mention what we are trying to build is total crap. The Littoral "Combat" Ship is the biggest embarrassment in procurement, up there with the Sergeant York DIVADS disaster when the stupid radar on that AAA vehicle locked up on the fan in a crapper during testing. That high-speed empty hull couldn't fight its way out of a wet paper bag, if it isn't dockside getting repaired by tech-reps since the crew complement is smaller than the IQ of most of Congress.
We get a nice foreign frigate design that works well, the FREMM, and what do we do with it? We completely redesign it, going from 85% commonality to 15%. Why bother using the original design anyhow and just go clean sheet in that instance? I get that we need to have our weapons, sensors and combat systems, but do we need to completely redesign the wheel there when the Chinese are outbuilding us 10-1?
We're a deeply divided country among partisan and ethnic lines that can't agree on anything. Our ruling class encourages perversion and anti-white bigotry at every turn while spending our great-grandchildren into the poorhouse to provide Israel and Ukraine with billions in borrowed money to fight wars we don't need to be involved in.
China's population might be getting older, but they can at least put hulls in the water and crews on those ships. We're too busy training our sailors in diversity garbage and what pronouns to use to worry about preparing them for battle or heck, navigating ships without collisions.
If we had to fight a major war, we'd lose. We'd lose BADLY. I don't want to say that, but it's the truth. I'm one of those veterans who actively encourage young people NOT to join the service. If diversity and sexual deviants is what our ruling class want in the military, let them fight and die in these pointless wars to enrich the plutocrats.
Sal…”a middling retired USN CDR and his band of merry friends” continue to ring the alarm bell but Congress and the people appear to be tone deaf. Sir, you undersell yourself as the herald of Naval hypocrisy, doublespeak and doom amongst our leadership. The more this old Marine reads, the more I’m falling into your ranks when muster is sounded. When I see what the Navy is doing with readiness and shipbuilding and our beloved Corps is doing with FD2030 and our so-called amphibious Navy…you cannot avoid asking the tough questions.
To tie a bow on your comments today, there’s this from today’s Early Bird: “US Navy ship programs face years-long delays amid labor, supply woes.” Like that’s news…
Meanwhile, let’s keep painting drone kills on the sides of aircraft in the Red Sea and thinking we are warfighters. Years of apathy and complacency on full display. Our adversaries should be licking their chops.
Carry on, Sir! I’ll continue yelling at the kids to get off the grass.
"Clark, Mullen, Roughead, Greenert, Richardson, Gilday, and Franchetti."
What a group of 'Really Smart Guys!'
You asked "why" CDR, but you gave the answer...and it can be the only answer that makes sense:
"From the lazy to the greedy, too many are vested in the inertia of the present system, and the ease of position and profit that comes with it."
We were building ships as employment programs, not to meet needs, with the vested interests of Congress Critters around the ships being built in their constituency.
It is, I believe, inarguable that we know HOW to build ships and what we NEED to build, along with how many. That we haven't is a testimony to building ships in a non-warfare environment with our eyes on never being challenged at sea because nobody could or would build a navy to challenge us. Then...China.
But it really all falls apart on 1) competition to build those ships to spec leads to arcane contractual language that the contractors use to get additional money for things they say weren't covered in the language (and probably weren't) at the low cost they put in their RFP response...hence the majority of the program delays and 2) the competition over budget between competing programs, competing service branches, and competing Congress critters...all eliciting compromises on budget, programs, etc. that lead to mediocre results.
Of course, more money for defense solves those problems but one party demands that, if we increase defense spending, we have to increase spending on social programs, rather than just doing what is necessary to build ships, planes, missiles, tanks, etc. that we need. I assume we all know what the percentage of spending on defense looks like now as part of the budget vs history? If not, go to the following link: https://www.defense.gov/Multimedia/Photos/igphoto/2002099941/
I know many on this forum are students of history. This institutional rot and mismanagement reminds me much of the French Airforce in the mid 1930's... French politicians
without prudence or sound policy. Aviation plants delivering fighters with no gunsights or even propellers. Attempts to even build a "universal" airplane for all French services...and you thought the F35 was a new concept... 8-) 1940 was a year of grim consiquence..
We who love our country find this situation now infuriating and scary.
"...rage and despair" AYE.
As an Army veteran it is a bittersweet comfort to see that my branch isn't the only one flailing about. War would probably fix this problem, but I don't think I am alone in believing that cost may be far too high.
EDO culture of "stick close to your desk and never go to sea" combined with the NAVSEA motto of 'mediocre is the goal and failure is the threshold,' makes one wonder if there's any hope of a good decision or product. The uniformed folks at the system commands should all be line officers and professional civilians for continuity. Having design and capability decisions driven by officers with little to no at-sea experience, appearing to function as little more than than costumed civilians, with no clue of warfare, operational needs, or survivability is a travesty.
While reading the USNI News, I came upon a very interesting fact dealing with our new frigate. "While the design was based on a long-serving warship, design agent Gibbs & Cox heavily modified the FREMM design to meet NAVSEA requirements, like tougher survivability standards than those of European navies, Navy officials have told USNI News. At one point the Constellation design shared about 85 percent commonality with the original FREMM design, but the alterations have brought that commonality down to under 15 percent, a person familiar with the changes told USNI News." (USNI News: By Mallory Shelbourne and Sam Lagrone April 2, 2024 5:11 PM - Updated: APRIL 2, 2024 8:19 PM)
I have read repeatedly that it is the lack of workers and supply chain issues that are delaying so many ship building programs. After reading this article, I think there are some other reasons why launching of this vessel will be three years behind schedule. Just the humble opinion of an old hermit.
Clark crushed the Syscoms with huge personnel reductions. While we were screwing around with "Spiral Development " which got us exactly what we knew it would. More wasted money for marginal platforms. Every time we start an acquisition and don't know what we really want, it will go sideways. This is not a new revelation but a lesson we fail to learn