Cdr Sal, stunning news. You and Sal continue to be a great source of pertinent, "insider quality" information not available from the "usual, Military Industrial Complex (TM)" vetted and approved sources. Knee jerk reaction: if you can't crew what you've got, a major new construction build (even if it were possible considering our lack of shipbuilding capability) is beyond delusional. What this says about the state of leadership, personnel management and recruiting (a subset of good leadership / management) in our military in general and the USN in particular is worthy of a criminal referral. Fortunately, no one is actually responsible, so no one is accountable. \ sarcasm off.
Wha-a-a...no LDO's? Anecdotally, after I retired there was an LDO O-6 detailed in to be the CO of NTTC Corry Station, the Crypto/EW training hub. The Captain was an immigrant from East Germany, a former Aviation Boatswain's Mate - Fuels Chief Petty Officer. I still knew people at NTTC at the time. They were saying, "No way this guy can can do the job...WTF are they thinking in DC?" I had to grin.
I don't know, SGT. UAV's weren't really a thing when I was in. The competition between Line Officers was always fierce and getting detailed to a "stray" billet wouldn't be very career enhancing. As an E-8 EWCS(SW) I got detailed to a Surface Line O-4 (A)EWO billet at PacFlt because no SWO wanted it. I suspect that a ship-launched UAV would be controlled by an Enlisted man with an NEC (MOS) for it or a JO as a collateral duty....like they did with DASH in the 60s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrodyne_QH-50_DASH
There are plenty of mariners. The problem is the way MSC recruits and man's their vessels. They hire very low quality people and hold no one accountable. There are dodges where you can be on payroll but not working which encourages just that. Finally the way mariners were treated during the pandemic (confined gangway up for SIX months not even getting the contractual penalty pay) left many with a sour taste in their mouth. Of all the MSC unlicensed I've worked with maybe one or two were worth a damn and the rest were insolent and incompetent trash.
I though the expeditionary sea base ships, even after they were moved to USS status, were still mixed crew, civilian contractors and Navy, to save active duty billets. The official USN page on them says crew is “44 Military Sealift Command personnel” and ”101 military”.
So they are going to mothball those two Puller-class ships in order to save 202 billets? Holy recruiting shortfall Batman, how short are they? And what will they send in their place, America-class baby-CVs and their crew of 1,200?
Okay, after actually going and reading the story, I see it’s not the 101 mil billets that are driving this, it’s the 44 MSC contract mariners, thus those 88 MSC slots saved justify sending a gator asset to host the SEAL teams and such instead of these Puller class.
So the entire experiment with mixed crew to save mil manpower is now officially a failure? Why not, then, just staff them up with 44 Navy crew and save the America-class CVL for things that actually need a CVL?
When ~half of the potential recruiting pool can look this stuff up on their phones, they might perhaps decide upon reflection to not pursue that opening…
The shortage is in the "man" part of the manpower, because the Navy, as with the other services, is focused on higher priority issues, such as maternity uniforms and celebrating drag queens.
This isn't surprising. My experience of MSC crew is that they are generally incompetent and poorly discipline. The officers are not bad but every one else? Those shops are doomed if they go into a war zone. So it's probably for the best they mothball some so we don't lose them before figuring out that remanning the fleet is the only option.
Having recently retired after 22 years with MSC preceded by 24 years of active duty Navy I humbly disagree with the below comment by Jhon D'oh regarding the competence of MSC crews. That being said MSC is bleeding personnel every bit as much (maybe more) than the Navy. My last nine years were in the EPF community and I have sailed many of the ships that will be "laid up". MSC will not gain many people as most of these ships were undermanned and some are sharing crew depending on employment of the vessel. Captains and most of the crew are being pulled off ships when they are in the yards or in a non-active status of any type.
For clarification purposes, on blended crew ships, i.e. Lewis B Puller and Herschel "Woody" WIlliams, MSC operates the ship will USN personnel perform the mission. That means civilians are running Deck, Engine, Supply and a portion of Communications Department on those vessels.
I think that Admiral John Kirby former CHINFO can provide all the spin necessary to reassure us that all is well at MSC in particular and in the Navy in general.
After I got out of uniform, I'd planned to go to MSC. Sylvanias sisters were all being transferred to MSC. The MSC folks told me I could likely get onto San Diego, who was going to the yard for MSC refit. But some delay came right away- months. So went home to west coast. Called in weekly for months, in meantime, began what became my next career. Finally, I missed calling in, and of course, that was the week they crewed up.
So I wonder if they're giving out tasty bonuses and such since they're so shorthanded, or if things like age are overlooked?? :)
With the entire Service Force CIVMAR now, that only leaves amphibs as Deep Draft command opportunities.
(I will throw it out for ponderment again... Was a culture of transitory ticket punching a factor in why the amphibs as a group are so decrepit?)
And its only a very small number of aviators who will ever be exposed to anything as "Naval" as ship driving.
The CAGs bypass ship commands entirely.
(Used to be the CAG was an O-5 command, and they worked directly for the carrier CO. Today, a CVN command is essentially a "tenant command", with both the CO and and CAG answering to the Strike Group CDR.)
Thats how you get a current "Naval" Aviation community -strutting about resplendent in flight suits (pajamas) being indistinguishable from the Air Force- that doesn't think much about, 'Going Down to the Sea in Ships"
Unable to see outside their bubble, the TOPGUN Generation is all ok with this being the message to the Civilian World...
I had two COs on my AFS- the first was an ex-Tomcat pilot. Our ship was his deep-draft command. And that fellow was the officer we all wanted to be when we grew up. Amazing ship driver, who regularly waved off tugs, and drive our single screw ship up to piers with almost supernatural precision. He was also a great manager, took care of his crew. Drove a 'Vette drop top with our hull number for a license plate. Always had a cigar in his mouth, and drank like a sailor. He ran full belts thru the .50s during exercises, with what could only be a maniacal grin- cigar stub clenched tight. We were a noncombatant, but our crew, to a man, would've gone into a pitched battle under him in a heartbeat.
While on deployments, I got to mingle with our HC det crews and pilots a bit, and those -46 pilots seemed to be cut from the same cloth. Squared away, dedicated guys who not only excelled at their jobs, but we're good leaders who took care of their people.
Niw, our second CO was a non-avaitor whose only concern was his career. Pudgy, arrogant, uniform always slovenly. He drove a tiny economy car. Ships scores on everything from OPPEs to security drills dropped. Morale plummeted. Nobody cared. NJPs spiked (I was part of that). Power hungry petty officers flourished, chiefs gave up and deferred to new, clueless officers who hadnt learned how their divisions worked yet. Overall, the whole command became a miserable cluster****. This is when I started seeing POs with 15-16 years leaving the Navy, they'd had enough.
Now this mightve just been a fluke...maybe its out of context...but at least in my day- 80s, early 90s, the aviation community seemed to create better sailors, better managers. Men more dedicated to doing the job, by the book, but at the same time creating a cohesive top-performing command...
Cdr Sal, stunning news. You and Sal continue to be a great source of pertinent, "insider quality" information not available from the "usual, Military Industrial Complex (TM)" vetted and approved sources. Knee jerk reaction: if you can't crew what you've got, a major new construction build (even if it were possible considering our lack of shipbuilding capability) is beyond delusional. What this says about the state of leadership, personnel management and recruiting (a subset of good leadership / management) in our military in general and the USN in particular is worthy of a criminal referral. Fortunately, no one is actually responsible, so no one is accountable. \ sarcasm off.
Most of those 700 officer billets could be Warrant officers with an improvement in performance.
Wha-a-a...no LDO's? Anecdotally, after I retired there was an LDO O-6 detailed in to be the CO of NTTC Corry Station, the Crypto/EW training hub. The Captain was an immigrant from East Germany, a former Aviation Boatswain's Mate - Fuels Chief Petty Officer. I still knew people at NTTC at the time. They were saying, "No way this guy can can do the job...WTF are they thinking in DC?" I had to grin.
Sorry, as an ex-Army guy, I'm not familiar with all the Navy flavors. Sure LDO's...
Who flies your UAV's? Flying SGTs like the Army, or do you guys insist that UAV's be flown by commissioned Aviator at least O-3s?
I don't know, SGT. UAV's weren't really a thing when I was in. The competition between Line Officers was always fierce and getting detailed to a "stray" billet wouldn't be very career enhancing. As an E-8 EWCS(SW) I got detailed to a Surface Line O-4 (A)EWO billet at PacFlt because no SWO wanted it. I suspect that a ship-launched UAV would be controlled by an Enlisted man with an NEC (MOS) for it or a JO as a collateral duty....like they did with DASH in the 60s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrodyne_QH-50_DASH
I was wring and sloppy in looking at the headline:
"Retiring the vessels would free up around 700 sailors and marines for redistribution"
The shortage is non-uniformed MM staff. So my warrant solution isn't a great fit.
It seems to come down to a dearth of our civilian fleet and better non-dod contracts
There are plenty of mariners. The problem is the way MSC recruits and man's their vessels. They hire very low quality people and hold no one accountable. There are dodges where you can be on payroll but not working which encourages just that. Finally the way mariners were treated during the pandemic (confined gangway up for SIX months not even getting the contractual penalty pay) left many with a sour taste in their mouth. Of all the MSC unlicensed I've worked with maybe one or two were worth a damn and the rest were insolent and incompetent trash.
I though the expeditionary sea base ships, even after they were moved to USS status, were still mixed crew, civilian contractors and Navy, to save active duty billets. The official USN page on them says crew is “44 Military Sealift Command personnel” and ”101 military”.
So they are going to mothball those two Puller-class ships in order to save 202 billets? Holy recruiting shortfall Batman, how short are they? And what will they send in their place, America-class baby-CVs and their crew of 1,200?
Okay, after actually going and reading the story, I see it’s not the 101 mil billets that are driving this, it’s the 44 MSC contract mariners, thus those 88 MSC slots saved justify sending a gator asset to host the SEAL teams and such instead of these Puller class.
So the entire experiment with mixed crew to save mil manpower is now officially a failure? Why not, then, just staff them up with 44 Navy crew and save the America-class CVL for things that actually need a CVL?
And digging further, gee, I have no idea why MSC might be having issues recruiting enough mariners when stories like this are findable:
https://gcaptain.com/us-navy-sued-after-rape-of-senior-us-merchant-marine-officer/
When ~half of the potential recruiting pool can look this stuff up on their phones, they might perhaps decide upon reflection to not pursue that opening…
Here is my contribution to trying to sound the warning on this critical topic.
https://patriotpost.us/articles/106944-strategic-military-sealift-is-critical-2024-05-20
I've been a PP supporter for many years and never realized there more less overtly political articles up there. Have to visit more often:)
Excellent. I shared it in my stack.
The shortage is in the "man" part of the manpower, because the Navy, as with the other services, is focused on higher priority issues, such as maternity uniforms and celebrating drag queens.
If you think it's so easy then you design an appropriate maternity uniform for a 6'6" 400 lb drag princess.
This isn't surprising. My experience of MSC crew is that they are generally incompetent and poorly discipline. The officers are not bad but every one else? Those shops are doomed if they go into a war zone. So it's probably for the best they mothball some so we don't lose them before figuring out that remanning the fleet is the only option.
Having recently retired after 22 years with MSC preceded by 24 years of active duty Navy I humbly disagree with the below comment by Jhon D'oh regarding the competence of MSC crews. That being said MSC is bleeding personnel every bit as much (maybe more) than the Navy. My last nine years were in the EPF community and I have sailed many of the ships that will be "laid up". MSC will not gain many people as most of these ships were undermanned and some are sharing crew depending on employment of the vessel. Captains and most of the crew are being pulled off ships when they are in the yards or in a non-active status of any type.
For clarification purposes, on blended crew ships, i.e. Lewis B Puller and Herschel "Woody" WIlliams, MSC operates the ship will USN personnel perform the mission. That means civilians are running Deck, Engine, Supply and a portion of Communications Department on those vessels.
I'm not intimately familiar with MSC operations but to be honest, that's the way most of the Air Wing treated ships company on a CVN
Tried signing in, but failed. Hopefully I can hear the replay.
I think that Admiral John Kirby former CHINFO can provide all the spin necessary to reassure us that all is well at MSC in particular and in the Navy in general.
After I got out of uniform, I'd planned to go to MSC. Sylvanias sisters were all being transferred to MSC. The MSC folks told me I could likely get onto San Diego, who was going to the yard for MSC refit. But some delay came right away- months. So went home to west coast. Called in weekly for months, in meantime, began what became my next career. Finally, I missed calling in, and of course, that was the week they crewed up.
So I wonder if they're giving out tasty bonuses and such since they're so shorthanded, or if things like age are overlooked?? :)
tangential. https://open.substack.com/pub/andmagazine/p/the-pirates-are-winning-defeat-in?r=1pdvdn&utm_medium=ios
No sense in having a Navy if you don't even use it.
(Per the "Other" Sal's comment about carrier CO's)
CO's of carriers are required by law to be Naval Aviators...
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/8162
It used to be that they were given a "Deep Draft" command as a prerequisite that were most often UNREP ships.
https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1967/november/deep-draft-and-major-command-selection
With the entire Service Force CIVMAR now, that only leaves amphibs as Deep Draft command opportunities.
(I will throw it out for ponderment again... Was a culture of transitory ticket punching a factor in why the amphibs as a group are so decrepit?)
And its only a very small number of aviators who will ever be exposed to anything as "Naval" as ship driving.
The CAGs bypass ship commands entirely.
(Used to be the CAG was an O-5 command, and they worked directly for the carrier CO. Today, a CVN command is essentially a "tenant command", with both the CO and and CAG answering to the Strike Group CDR.)
Thats how you get a current "Naval" Aviation community -strutting about resplendent in flight suits (pajamas) being indistinguishable from the Air Force- that doesn't think much about, 'Going Down to the Sea in Ships"
Unable to see outside their bubble, the TOPGUN Generation is all ok with this being the message to the Civilian World...
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxGeJ_e4enwHOeTyRKkbpyXCqpcGHq3G4-?si=TsGxqrnO0sgQYEVt
The World Wonders... Who is actually enabling this country's "Sea Blindness"?
I had two COs on my AFS- the first was an ex-Tomcat pilot. Our ship was his deep-draft command. And that fellow was the officer we all wanted to be when we grew up. Amazing ship driver, who regularly waved off tugs, and drive our single screw ship up to piers with almost supernatural precision. He was also a great manager, took care of his crew. Drove a 'Vette drop top with our hull number for a license plate. Always had a cigar in his mouth, and drank like a sailor. He ran full belts thru the .50s during exercises, with what could only be a maniacal grin- cigar stub clenched tight. We were a noncombatant, but our crew, to a man, would've gone into a pitched battle under him in a heartbeat.
While on deployments, I got to mingle with our HC det crews and pilots a bit, and those -46 pilots seemed to be cut from the same cloth. Squared away, dedicated guys who not only excelled at their jobs, but we're good leaders who took care of their people.
Niw, our second CO was a non-avaitor whose only concern was his career. Pudgy, arrogant, uniform always slovenly. He drove a tiny economy car. Ships scores on everything from OPPEs to security drills dropped. Morale plummeted. Nobody cared. NJPs spiked (I was part of that). Power hungry petty officers flourished, chiefs gave up and deferred to new, clueless officers who hadnt learned how their divisions worked yet. Overall, the whole command became a miserable cluster****. This is when I started seeing POs with 15-16 years leaving the Navy, they'd had enough.
Now this mightve just been a fluke...maybe its out of context...but at least in my day- 80s, early 90s, the aviation community seemed to create better sailors, better managers. Men more dedicated to doing the job, by the book, but at the same time creating a cohesive top-performing command...
Just a junior sailors two cent observations...